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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Themes in Avatar/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Steve 08:33, 20 April 2010 [1].

Themes in Avatar

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Themes in Avatar (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): Cinosaur (talk) 17:37, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]


I am nominating this for featured article because it satisfies WP:FACR, has passed a peer review, has been promoted to GA-status, and its GA reviewers suggested that it be nominated for FA. Cinosaur (talk) 17:37, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]


Oppose - Inappropriate use of multiple non-free images, not plausible as a FAC Fasach Nua (talk) 20:44, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I strongly disagree with your rationale. It is an inevitable truth that most film-related articles will have non-free images to depict the content within the film as it relates to the article. This is because the film itself and any screen-shots will always be under copyright. It is technically impossible not to use copyrighted images, unless someone hand-drew the scene themselves for example, which would be ridiculous. Many featured film articles throughout Wikipedia have multiple non-free images within them and some more so than this one. DrNegative (talk) 21:24, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
On top of what DrNegative has rightly said above about non-free images in featured film articles, the article in question is precisely about visual and conceptual similarities between the film Avatar and various social/political/historical/cultural/religious phenomena, and as such must use screenshots by definition. Arguing to the contrary and suggesting to strip the article of the bare minimum of screenshots it currently uses would mean limiting its encyclopedic value only to those who have actually watched the movie and remembered every frame from it. Regards, Cinosaur (talk) 03:00, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
File:Firstplane.jpg: The fair use rationale of the image is invalid. Any free 9/11 pic will do the job equally well. There are 3 screen shots of the movie, that are used in appropriate sections. IMO, that is fine. --Redtigerxyz Talk 04:59, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Redtigerxyz, thanks for your remark. As you well know, did go back and forth on this image until we concurred that this image best captured the thematic parallels between the film and 9/11. However, I am on the active lookout for its free replacement. Regards, Cinosaur (talk) 06:53, 20 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: You mention two peer reviews above, but only link one. Am I missing something, or do you mean two peer reviewers?
    • You are correct, they are actually two separate peer reviewers under the same peer review heading. I was not sure if they counted as two separate PRs or just one and the same. Sorry for the ambiguity. Regards, Cinosaur (talk) 03:29, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. This is an interesting article, nicely put together; the primary editors are to be commended for wringing so much from from the available sources. But that last point is why I wonder if the nomination isn't a little premature. Most of the sources are news and magazine articles; I'm sure many are very good and explore the film's themes in decent detail, but the lack of material from scholarship might mean major changes to the article in the months to come—and make no mistake, this is a film that will attract serious comment; the very existence of this sub-topic should prove that. Compare the references in this article to those in a few film articles that passed FA recently: Star Trek III: The Search for Spock#References, American Beauty (film)#References (scroll down for the bibliography), Not One Less#Bibliography. Even the C-class Interpretations of Fight Club#References. Something like Tropic Thunder might lack in-depth academic comment, but given the nature of the film, I'm content with that article's coverage. If this article were instead a subsection of the main article, I wouldn't be as concerned, but it's a thing apart, and that makes it more of an issue. For now, I'm not opposing, because I'm willing to accept that the article is a comprehensive treatment of the subject as it stands; I'm not even sure the mere potential for new material from higher-quality sources would be a legitimate, actionable oppose in any event. However, I would like to hear the nominator's thoughts on this issue, and it's something that subsequent reviewers should perhaps consider. All the best, Steve T • C 09:01, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: I concur with Steve. While the article work is commendable, I am not sure if it meets the FA criteria of "a thorough and representative survey of the relevant literature on the topic". I do not find newspaper and magazine articles to be relevant literature to sustain an entire article about a film's themes. The film is not even a half year old, and I think we can see from the extensive coverage here that a lot has been said about the film. I find it extremely likely that more shall be said. Themes are scholastic, not journalistic. It is strange territory here, though, so I'd also like to hear from the nominator about this. Erik (talk | contribs) 14:46, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Can I just point out that when I said this article is well on its way to becoming a featured article "well on its way" means something very different to "this is a featured quality article now". I think this nomination is way too premature. And yes, scholarly studies are important in an article like this. Given time I think they could probably be added when they are published but right now.... I do think though that with a bit of study and wider reading and some polishing this could reach FA. Its an excellent article considering how it has been compiled using the sources but FA right now? Too early in my view. Dr. Blofeld White cat 15:49, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: I would like to thank Steve, Erik, and Dr.Blofeld for their positive feedback on the article's contents and for remarks on its perceived lack of comprehensiveness. I did look hard around for notable scholarly reviews of Avatar in the process, but it seems that such reviews have had too little time to emerge. As it appears from the literary references in film FAs posted by Steve above, most of the films' scholarly reviews appeared only some 2-5 years after their respective release dates, and Avatar is unlikely to become an exception. My rationale for this FAC was that the article is at present arguably as comprehensive as you can get (we did scrutinize the sources) and as such, its promotion as a featured Wiki resource might even facilitate and foster the emergence of more scholarly reviews of the film. However, if the consensus and FA guidelines demand that such an article include more permanent, in-depth, and scholarly reviews, which are yet to come, I will comply and withdraw the nominations for now till the time when more preferable sources are available en masse. Regards, Cinosaur (talk) 06:53, 20 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, c.3.
    • Non-free images are not low-resolution (getting a much cleaner screenshot would do wonders for clarity, even at smaller resolutions.) I echo Fasach Nua's comments. Let's take a look at File:Avatarwar.JPG, for example. Its caption reads "The humans’ military operations on Pandora reminded critics of wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Vietnam." This does not need an image, as the battle scene is only being compared to real-world campaigns. The paragraph next to it mentions nothing that requires a screenshot—there's no critical commentary about what the soldiers are wearing, their equipment, or even the environment. The image description page has a weak one-line justification, so on and so forth for the other screenshots. These are being used in a purely decorative way, bookending comments about the subject without actually informing the reader about what is written next to it in the way required by WP:NFCC. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 19:21, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment:, David Fuchs, thanks for your feedback. I disagree with your characterization of the screenshots as mere decorations. As DrNegative and I wrote above, the very nature of this article is such that its contents heavily relies on visual similarities reported by reliable sources. Therefore, to keep the article truly encyclopedic even for those who did not watch the film, screenshots are indispensable and thus justifiable by fair use. As for your complaint that "there's no critical commentary about what the soldiers are wearing, their equipment, or even the environment"—what would you suggest other than adding such explanations to the quoted sources and thus running into WP:OR? Reliable sources watched the film, drew unanimous comparisons, and the article just faithfully restates their observations illustrated by relevant screenshots of the film for those readers who did not see the film. Contrary to what you seem to be suggesting, I fail to see how the absence of these images will improve or not deteriorate the article. Regards, Cinosaur (talk) 06:53, 20 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Complying with the opinions of a number of editors here, I withdraw this nomination. Many thanks for the valuable feedback which I will give a serious consideration. Regards, Cinosaur (talk) 06:53, 20 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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