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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Sudirman/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by GrahamColm 22:16, 7 November 2012 [1].

Sudirman edit

Sudirman (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s):  — Crisco 1492 (talk) 10:09, 13 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because I think it is ready. The article is comprehensive, cites numerous sources in both English and Indonesian, and has gone through thorough GA and A-class reviews. Sudirman, if passed, will be the highest-importance Indonesian-biography FA. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 10:09, 13 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Image review: File:Sudirman.jpg seems fine. I was about to point that the license talks about 50 years and not 25, but it is correct, the image is subject to the copyright law at the time of creation. Perhaps the Commons tag should clarify this, or have one for pre-2002 works and another for post-2002 work, but that is beyond the scope of the FAC. File:Signature of Sudirman.svg is fine. File:Capture of Governor-General Stachouwer .JPG is fine (same context of lead image). File:Indonesian Military Headquarters, Gondokusuman, Yogyakarta.JPG seems to be an anonymous work, is the term 50 years after publication? File:Panti Rapih Hospital 16 June 2012.JPG is another building, with another explanation about the copyright on the building itself (I will read about this before approving or rejecting those 2 files, as copyright is a complicated thing and this just got beyond my current knowledge). File:Sudirman saluting 27 May 1946 KR.JPG Is fine. It would be better if you can get somewhere else a better sample of that photo, but the copyright status and the relevance within the article are fine and that is enough. File:Sudirman in Jakarta (1946).jpg is fine (it needs to be moved to Commons, but that's just technical stuff, again beyond the scope of FAC). File:Van Mook.png is fine, but you should explain the meaning of the colors in the file itself, not just in the caption here in wikipedia (remember that wikipedias in other languages may want to write articles about these topics, too). File:Sudirman surrounded by guerrilas 17 August 1950 KR.jpg seems fine. File:Sudirman consulting after guerrila war 11 July 1949 KR.jpg seems fine. I assume that Suharto is the man at the right whose face is visible, right? File:Sudirman's funeral procession 31 January 1950 KR.jpg seems fine, but someone requested a better description of what's going on in the event of the photo (no need to go very long, just a couple more sentences, with wikilinks to specific articles if useful, should be enough). File:Grave of Sudirman.JPG seems fine. File:Sudirman 5 rupiah note 1968.JPG is fine, COM:CURRENCY agrees with the licence used on banknotes of Indonesia.

I will review the article itself later. Have some patience: it's a long article, and I will have to go slowly, I'm from Argentina and don't know anything about Indonesia (but I hope that I will learn something interesting about that country while reviewing this article). Cambalachero (talk) 20:45, 17 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thanks for the image review
 — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:00, 17 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I have been investigating, and I have good news and bad news. The bad news is that in the case of annonymous works, the copyright goes to the state (Article 10A). The section "Duration of copyright" does not say anything about annonymous works or copyrights held by the state, so they might be permanent. However,, the two buildings we were talking about can stay. They were built when the Netherlands has not acknowledged yet the independence of Indonesia (27 December 1949, if the country article is correct), so the Freedom of Panorama of the Netherlands applies to them (because of using the law of the time, rather than the current law). A bit complicated legal stuff, I know, but in short words, the two photos are fine and can stay. Cambalachero (talk) 02:18, 18 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Pardon? Article 10 refers to "prehistoric remains, historical and other national cultural objects," as well as "folklores and works of popular culture that are commonly owned". These buildings would fall under paragraph 11, meaning the buildings were copyrighted "for 50 (fifty) years as of the first time the work is known to the public." — Crisco 1492 (talk) 10:55, 18 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Article review First of all, sorry if I sound as a complete ignorant, but is the name only "Sudirman"? There is no first name and last name? As for the article, I will go by sections

  • Lead: I did not see any problem
  • Early life: "According to the family's records, Sudirman – named by his uncle – was born on a pon Sunday in the month of Maulud in the Javanese calendar; the Indonesian government later established 24 January 1916 as Sudirman's birthday". This seems like something important, and should have a specific footnote. If I understood correctly, he is the son of Karsid and Siyem, but Siyem was married with Cokrosunaryo, and so he was raised by Siyem and Cokrosunaryo, and also received a nobility title. Wasn't there a problem with this? As far as I know, nobility give great importance to the blood ties, and being born out of wedlock could be a problem. However, when I think this I'm aware that I'm thinking about European nobility, and Javanese may be different. Was it acceptable in that context, that an adopted son becomes a noble? Or was it kept hidden, with Cokrosunaryo posing as the biological father before the law?
  • Teaching: "In 1936 he returned to Cilacap to teach at a Muhammadiyah-run elementary school, having been trained by his teachers at Wirotomo; that year he married Alfiah, the daughter of the rich batik merchant Raden Sastroatmojo, whom he had known since his time at Wirotomo". You said "Wirotomo" twince in a sentence, you should reformulate the sentence to avoid this.

I will continue tomorrow Cambalachero (talk) 03:16, 21 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Yeah, Sudirman is his only name. Many Javanese share that: Sukarno and Suharto are among the better known examples, but there's also Notonagoro, Kuntowijoyo, Koentjaraningrat...
  • He was the son of Karsid and Siyem (a married couple); Cokrosunaryo was married to Siyem's sister, Tarsem. No question of being born out of wedlock. Cokrosunaryo raised Sudirman as his own and essentially adopted him, a practice not uncommon among the Javanese: Karsid and Siyem had a better chance for their son (nobility = education, at least during those years) and Cokrosunaryo had a heir.
  • Done.
  • Thanks for the review! — Crisco 1492 (talk) 07:47, 21 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Japanese occupation: "In Cilacap, Sudirman's school had been closed..." It is "was closed", not "have been". "have been", the past perfect continuous, is for actions in the past that took place in a steady and regular manner, not for a specific action that took place once and then it is done.
  • Commander-in-Chief: "Although his fellow internees wanted to attack the Japanese soldiers, Sudirman convinced them against it; after ordering his fellow internees to return to their hometowns, Sudirman made his way to Jakarta and met with Sukarno, who asked him to lead resistance against Japanese forces in the city." Again, you repeated "internees" and "Japanese" in the sentence. Perhaps it is too long and should be slip in 2 or more sentences, it's a 4-lines long sentence. "The government renamed the Army twice in January 1946, first to the Peoples' Salvation Army (Tentara Keselamatan Rakjat), then to the Army of the Republic of Indonesia (Tentara Repoeblik Indonesia, or TRI)". Use quotations marks ("") when talking about words as words, in this case the name of the army (in this sentence, the name itself is being talked about, instead of being used as a noun).

I will continue later Cambalachero (talk) 13:54, 21 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

    • Stet - The article uses the past perfect tense (not present) in this situation, which indicates that at the time something happened, something else had already happened; this is the correct usage.
    • Agree, split at the semi-colon. Changed one instance of internees, agree with you there. Can't think of another way to express "Japanese forces"
    • Stet. MOS:WORDSASWORDS recommends italics in this situation; so does MOS:FOREIGN. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 14:02, 21 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Negotiations with the Dutch: Sudirman is watching to the left in the photo, so it should be placed in the right (the main idea is to have the people watching to the side with the text). The other photos and the box have no people in them, and may be aligned as desired. "...and involved Sudirman. Sudirman took a specially commissioned...". You repeated the name at the end and begining of a sentence, you should replace the second one with "He". "His rank was reduced to lieutenant general..." should be "He was demoted to lieutenant general...".
  • Guerrilla warfare: "He and a convoy, consisting of Sudirman, a small group of soldiers, and his personal doctor...". Isn't "he" referencing Sudirman? Because if it is, he is being listed twince: if you say "he and a convoy", it's implied that they are separate entities, and those in the convoy are others. You should reformulate the sentence, either removing him from the composition of the convoy, or talking about a convoy that includes both him and others (wichever fits better for the case). "After several days in Kretek [...] where there were still several bases" is a very long sentence, 4 lines, please reformulate it
  • Post-war and death: I did not see any problem.
  • Legacy: Perhaps you should link the movies, even if they are red links. A movie about a national hero is likely to be notable, and red links are not a problem for featured status.

That's it for now. I noticed that some of the things I pointed were being fixed in my review intervals, I will check them later. But, overall, the article is a great work, and I will take note of some things from it to apply them to the articles I write. Cambalachero (talk) 21:35, 21 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Images switched. Done. Done.
  • Changed to "His convoy". Split at the semi-colon.
  • Movies linked. Both won awards too (Serangan Fajar even won Best Film at the 1982 Indonesian Film Festival)
Thanks for the review. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:07, 21 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support All my comments have been either fixed or explained, and I have no more requests to make. However, I must point that I'm not a native speaker of English and there's always the risk that I do not notice a problem, so in that aspect I will follow what other reviewers say. I think that this is a very good article, and should be featured. Cambalachero (talk) 01:11, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thanks for the review, Cambalachero! — Crisco 1492 (talk) 03:22, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments
  • "but later dropped out for a lack of funds." -> perhaps "owing to a lack of funds", as is, it implies he dropped out to achieve a lack of funds
  • Done
  • "The couple went on to have three sons (Ahmad Tidarwono, Muhammad Teguh Bambang Tjahjadi, and Taufik Effendi), and four daughters (Didi Praptiastuti, Didi Sutjiati, Didi Pudjiati, and Titi Wahjuti Satyaningrum)." -> I think we could just list these names rather than keeping them in brackets as asides.
  • Done.
  • "led to a delay in Sudirman's confirmation." and "While waiting to be confirmed" -> it's his appointment which was to be confirmed, not Sudirman himself; in the sense used here it implies a Catholic sacrament rather than formal recognition of a post.
  • LOL. Changed two occurrences, although I think context suggests otherwise (he would have been 18 years too late)
  • "his assault was counted by an air strike and the use of tanks" -> counted = countered?
  • Dur, done.
  • Thinking the "speedy order" box could be brought in a little bit; as I'm seeing it, there's only one line which spills onto a second line and that's only by one word; bringing it in by 50 to 75px would help it seem a little less sledgehammery without causing it to grow height
  • How's this?
  • "and a devoted, incorruptible, leader." -> comma after "incorruptible" is unnecessary
  • Done.
  • "Sudirman received numerous awards from the national government posthumously, including the Bintang Sakti, Bintang Gerilya,[152] Bintang Mahaputera Adipurna,[153] Bintang Mahaputera Pratama,[154] Bintang Republik Indonesia Adipurna,[155] and Bintang Republik Indonesia Adipradana." -> Bit of context might be welcome here; are these honour like Order of National Hero (Jamaica) or the Legion of Honour, or awarded titles like Saoi or Hero of the Soviet Union, or military honours like the Military Medal for Gallantry? Just describing what the awards are, briefly, would be useful.
  • I have it in Oerip Soemohardjo. However, I haven't footnoted it here because it would require footnotes in footnotes. The Rabbit is gone, so I don't know how to fix that.
  • A footnote inside an explanatory note? Episode 2 (Twin Peaks) has one if you want to copy that. It's not necessary though, the article on the awards explains them fine. I hadn't noticed the link was present during my read through (saw it in Soemohardjo, searched and found it in Sudirman after that) so perhaps piping it as a phrase and not one word, to match how it's piped in Soemohardjo, would be useful. GRAPPLE X 22:43, 23 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Nevermind, it's working. Seem to remember it not working last time, but whatever. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 22:47, 23 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Aside from these I'm a happy chappy with this article, it seems more than suitable in terms of comprehensiveness, neutrality, layout etc etc. An interesting read. GRAPPLE X 22:16, 23 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Aside from one new pipe link suggestion everything I've seen has been addressed. Looks great to me. GRAPPLE X 22:43, 23 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: I requested a third reviewer at the Military History wikiproject. Let's hope that someone notices the request and provides the third review needed here. Cambalachero (talk) 14:43, 4 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I posted a detailed review of this article during its A-class nomination and subsequently lightly copy edited it, and I think that it now meets the FA criteria. Nick-D (talk) 09:38, 5 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I promoted it to A-class and believe that it meets the FA criteria. Hawkeye7 (talk) 23:49, 5 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks Hawkeye! — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:52, 5 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • No worries. Your work on Indonesia-related articles is much appreciated. Australians have a great deal of curiosity about Indonesia, but not a lot of information. I for one have learned a great deal from reading your articles. Hawkeye7 (talk) 01:58, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • You may want to check out Margaret George's dissertation/book Australia and the Indonesian revolution; it's pretty interesting. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 02:04, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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