Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Shannon Lucid/archive1
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 12 January 2023 [1].
Shannon Lucid edit
This article is about the astronaut Shannon Lucid. She is the last of the original six NASA women astronauts chosen in 1978 to fly, and the last to be nominated at FAC. I would like to thank all the editors who participated in reviews of the other five - Kusma (talk), Wehwalt (talk), Dugan Murphy (talk), Balon Greyjoy (talk), Figureskatingfan (talk), PresN (talk), Z1720 (talk), HJ Mitchell (talk), SusunW (talk) and JennyOz (talk) - and hope that some of you can find time over the Christmas holidays to review. Best wishes for the season. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:18, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
- Image review—pass
(t · c) buidhe 21:23, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
Support by Wehwalt edit
- What's an exchange crew? Ditto an ASP?
- Any info any activities the past ten years?
Comments Support by Pendright
edit
Lead:
- She has flown in space five times including a prolonged mission aboard the Russian Mir space station in 1996, and is the only American woman to have served aboard Mir.
- She was awarded the Congressional Space Medal of Honor in December 1996, making her the tenth person and first woman to be accorded that honor.
- A graduate of the University of Oklahoma, where she earned her bachelor's degree in chemistry in 1963, master's degree in biochemistry in 1970 and PhD in biochemistry in 1973, Lucid was a laboratory technician at the Oklahoma Medical Research Foundation in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, from 1964 to 1966, a research chemist at Kerr-McGee, an oil company in Oklahoma City from 1966 to 1968, and a research associate at the Oklahoma Medical Research Foundation from 1973 to 1978.
- She flew in space five times: on STS-51-G, STS-34, STS-43, STS-58, and her mission to Mir, for which she traveled to the space station on the Space Shuttle Atlantis with STS-76 and returned six months later with STS-79.
- She was the NASA Chief Scientist from 2002 to 2003, and served as capsule communicator (CAPCOM) at the Mission Control for numerous Space Shuttle missions, including STS-135, the final Space Shuttle mission.
Early Life:
- They moved to Lubbock, Texas, and then settled in Bethany, Oklahoma, the family's original home town, where Wells graduated from Bethany High School in 1960.[5]
- She sold her bicycle to buy a telescope so she could look at the stars,[6] and began building her own rockets.
- Shortly after graduating from high school, she earned her private pilot's license with instrument and multi-engine ratings and bought an old Piper PA-16 Clipper that she used to fly her father to revival meetings.
Selection and training:
- Water survival training was conducted with the 3613th Combat Crew Training Squadron at Homestead Air Force Base in Florida and parasail training at Vance Air Force Base in Oklahoma.[23]
- Describe some of what the training included
- There's a long description in the NASA Astronaut Group 8 article. How much detail do you want? Hawkeye7 (discuss) 02:54, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
- Describe some of what the training included
- On August 31, 1979, NASA announced that the 35 astronaut candidates had completed their training and evaluation, and were now officially astronauts, qualified for selection on space flight crews.
- Describe some of what the evaluation included
- Although NASA calls it "evaluation", there are few tests or grades as such. You have to pass the swimming and survival courses. The Ascan concept was introduced after one of the astronauts selected in 1967 quit after not being able to learn to fly. But not until 2018 would an Ascan quit. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 02:54, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
- Describe some of what the evaluation included
STS-51-G:
- This had a different payload, and was scheduled to be launched on March 18, 1985.[32]
- She had no love for Saudi Arabia and the way it treated women, nor for Islam.
- Add some context
- Added a few words. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 02:54, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
- <>Thank you for your response, but my comment about context should have been more along these lines: assuming Lucid made these statements, to whom were they made, under what conditions, and when? If they were written, what were the circumstances? These statements seem inflamatory enough to merit a citation. Pendright (talk) 17:14, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
- Added a few words. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 02:54, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
- Add some context
STS-34:
- The January 1986 Space Shuttle Challenger disaster later that month brought Space Shuttle operations to a halt while NASA conducted investigations, soul-searching and remediation.
- One casualty of the disaster was the Galileo project, an unmanned probe to Jupiter, which lost both its launch window and its ride, through the cancelation of the Shuttle-Centaur project.[43]
- As this was much less powerful than the Shuttle-Centaur upper stage, Galileo had to employ gravity assists from Venus and Earth, and took six years instead of two to reach Jupiter.[45]
STS-43:
- Although the mission objectives did not change, the launch date was pushed back to July 23, and the orbiter was changed to Atlantis.
- The launch was delayed by a day in order to replace a faulty integrated electronics assembly that controlled the separation of the orbiter and the external tank, and then the countdown was halted with five hours to go due to a faulty main engine controller, and the launch was postponed to August 1.
- STS-43 was the eighth mission to land at KSC, and the first scheduled to do so since STS-61-C in January 1986.[50]
STS-58:
- The techniques developed were intended to be precursors of those to be conducted on the Space Station Freedom, and a preliminary to long-duration space flights.
Shuttle-Mir:
- She arranged for the second volume to be sent on the next Progress re-supply freighter.[66]
- Question: If the Russians did not speak English, how did she communicate with them or they with her?
Awards and honors:
- Lucid was awarded the Congressional Space Medal of Honor in December 1996 (for her mission to Mir), making her the tenth person and first woman to be given that honor.[74]
@Hawkeye7: Finished - Pendright (talk) 00:59, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
- <>I've left some responses to yours that need to be cleared up. Pendright (talk) 17:23, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
Comments from Balon Greyjoy edit
Article looks in good shape! Here are my comments:
- Convert templates don't use US spelling of kilometers.
- "only American woman to have served aboard Mir" Maybe say "stayed aboard" instead? Served aboard sounds like a navy assignment.
- "bought an old Piper PA-16 Clipper that she used to fly her father to revival meetings" What defines the aircraft as "old"? It seems like it's only 11 years old at the time that she purchased it.
- Personal opinion, but I think the information about Kawai Dawn's naming is trivia and doesn't need to be included.
- "Water survival training was conducted with the 3613th Combat Crew Training Squadron at Homestead Air Force Base in Florida and parasail training at Vance Air Force Base in Oklahoma." I don't have the source material, but it seems unlikely that parasail training was at Vance AFB when there are no bodies of water around it.
- Parasailing training was performed at Vance until 2007. See UPT class performs last parasailing training at Vance Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:42, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
- Wow; did not know that. When I went through SERE they had recently ended training at NAS Pensacola, and I figured it had been there for a long time. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 13:34, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
- Parasailing training was performed at Vance until 2007. See UPT class performs last parasailing training at Vance Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:42, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
- "She was at Edwards Air Force Base with the exchange crew for the landing of the STS-5 mission in November 1982. The exchange crew took over from the flight crew after they had landed, and handled the post-flight activities." I'm assuming she was a part of the exchange crew, especially when a later sentence says that she was one again a member of the exchange crew? This reads like she was there in addition to the exchange crew.
- "As a devout Christian, she had no love for Saudi Arabia and the way it treated women, nor for Islam." Couple changes here: 1). "No love for Saudi Arabia" is a bit of a figure of speech, maybe something like "she disagreed with the Saudi Arabian government's treatment of women" 2). As strict Christian beliefs also consider men to be superior to women, I don't think her values should be prefaced with "As a devout Christian" if the issue was predominantly the mistreatment of women. Assuming that Lucid does not harbor Islamophobic beliefs, I think it's a mischaracterization to include that she does not like an entire religion.
- It isn't a mischaracterisation. For Lucid's religious views, see No Sugar Added. Re-organized this a bit to make it clear that there are two aspects. Also, if you're going to understand Christianity, you need to take on board the reconciliation of contradictory concepts.
- I think your new version is much better. If she had/has anti-Islamic views, I think it's fine to include that in the article, but I'm glad it is more explicitly stated in your newer change. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 13:37, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
- It isn't a mischaracterisation. For Lucid's religious views, see No Sugar Added. Re-organized this a bit to make it clear that there are two aspects. Also, if you're going to understand Christianity, you need to take on board the reconciliation of contradictory concepts.
- "When the rest of the crew arrived in Riyadh, her absence was noted. This prompted a call from King Fahd of Saudi Arabia to President Ronald Reagan, and Lucid was put on the next flight to Saudi Arabia. She shook hands with the king, but stayed for only one day." I would break up these sentences differently, and remove "Lucid was put on the next flight" since I'm assuming that is an exaggeration of how quickly she traveled to Saudi Arabia. Maybe something like "When the rest of the crew arrived in Riyadh, her absence prompted a call from King Fahd of Saudi Arabia to President Ronald Reagan. Soon after, Lucid flew to Saudi Arabia, where she shook hands with the king, but stayed for only one day."
- Changed as suggested. Unfortunately, I don't have the book here. However, here's what the author has to say in an article:
Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:42, 30 December 2022 (UTC)For her own part, Lucid had no love for the Saudis. After the mission, invited to meet King Fahd, with the rest of the crew, in Riyadh, she refused. “She particularly objected to Saudi treatment of young women and disfigurement,” John Fabian recalled, “and she didn’t want to be a part of that. There was a lot of time and effort spent convincing her otherwise, to absolutely no avail.” When the other astronauts arrived in Riyadh, they were greeted by Al-Saud, whose looked around for Lucid. Her absence did not go down well with the sultan or the king…or with President Ronald Reagan. “Well, the King called the President,” recalled Fabian. “The President called the NASA Administrator. The NASA Administrator called the Johnson Space Center Director…and Shannon was on the next 747!” Lucid may have lost the battle, but she won the war, for she spent barely a day in Saudi Arabia, shook King Fahd’s hand, and returned promptly home.
- Changed as suggested. Unfortunately, I don't have the book here. However, here's what the author has to say in an article:
- "Space Shuttle operations to a halt while NASA conducted investigations, soul-searching, and remediation" I would remove "soul-searching" since I think that sounds more intangible than the Rogers Commission and SRB redesign. I would also add that flights were stood down for 32 months/2.5 years to give the reader a better sense of how long the pause was.
- Is there any more information on Lucid's role on STS-34?
- "The mission was accomplished in 79 orbits of the Earth" Active voice here? Something like "The mission completed 79 orbits of the Earth..." or "Atlantis completed 79 orbits of the Earth..." Same could be said for the STS-58 section.
- "Although the mission objectives did not change, the launch date was postponed to July 23, and the orbiter was changed to Atlantis." I feel like delays are pretty normal, so I'm not sure why this begins with "Although the mission objectives did not change" as if that is the expectation.
- Sure. Deleted. Objectives rarely changed, but the details could change, especially if you had to swap shuttles, as each was different. You would think that over the course of 135 launches that they would get fewer holds, delays and scrubs, but this was not the case. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:54, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
- Is there more information about the STS-58 mission, and Lucid's role? The paragraph about the mission is shorter than the one about crew selection. The only mention of Lucid is that she was on the crew and how long she spent in space.
- "The prospect of a long stay on Mir was not one calculated to appeal to most astronauts:" This makes it seem like the intention was to have a program that the astronauts didn't want to volunteer for. Maybe something like "Few astronauts volunteered for the exchange program, as they would be required to learn Russian and train at Star City for a year in order to spend several months..."
- Did Bonnie Dunbar and Norm Thagard volunteer for the Shuttle-Mir program? Lucid's quote makes it sound like nobody else volunteered, but then she is in Star City with 2 other astronauts to train.
- I believe Thagard did. I will need to consult Seddon's book about Dunbar. There was one more astronaut involved from memory. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:54, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
- As I suspected, Dunbar was a "volunteer" only in the Army sense. According to Dunbar:
I came back from NASA Headquarters the first week in December, and I was actually prepared to enjoy Christmas and do other things. And just shortly before Christmas, my boss, Dave [Leestma] called me in and said, "Bonnie, I need to have you go back up Norm [Norman] Thagard, who's going to fly this first increment." And I said, "When?" And he said, "February." And I said, "Well, I don't know if I'm ready." He said, "I need to have you do this." As far as I'm concerned, Dave practically walks on water. And I grew up the daughter of a Marine, so I don't say normally say no when I'm asked to go do something; it's part of my duty. So I talked to him for a long time about it, and I talked to my husband. "This is the right thing to go do."
I didn't feel totally prepared, especially in the area of language. I'd taken some Russian before. In fact, I took Russian classes in 1992, and I could read it, sound out the words. I knew the letters and so forth. I wasn't able to really speak it. So I started crash Russian courses just to try to help me prepare.
Then I met with Mr. Abbey and Dr. Huntoon in a private meeting where we talked about this, and they talked about why they wanted me to go. I expressed my reservations about the language and they felt I could learn the language, that what I brought to the program was my knowledge of the payloads, the science and science operations from my prior 3 flights. I already knew the experiments. I wasn't part of the actual selection committee, but I was part of the planning because we were funding it out of Code U. I knew perfectly well what the program was going to be. And I had some knowledge of these people and had helped advocate cooperate research while I was in NASA Headquarters. So at least I guess they felt comfortable with me going and sticking it out and supporting the program.
- Include the title of the science-fiction book that Lucid liked.
- Source doesn't say. I'll see if I can find it. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:54, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
- It was The Mirror of Her Dreams by Stephen R. Donaldson. Sounds like quite a potboiler. It has a Wikipedia article, so added and linked. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 02:52, 9 January 2023 (UTC)
- Source doesn't say. I'll see if I can find it. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:54, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
- I would remove the Begley quote about M&Ms; the previous few sentences establish that Lucid wanted American comfort food without that anecdote.
- "Her helmet became stuck, and technicians had to use pliers and a screwdriver to remove it." I would add some more information about how her helmet was stuck (presumably to the rest of her spacesuit), something like "Her helmet became stuck when she tried to take it off after landing, and she required help from technicians with pliers and a screw driver."
- Are you sure? I would have thought that removing the helmet was the job for the exchange crew. Do you have a source? Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:54, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
- Apologies for my poorly phrased suggestion. What I was getting at was that it's not clear what her helmet was stuck to. Starting the sentence with only "Her helmet became stuck" doesn't make it clear if it is stuck to her pressure suit neck ring (what I presume happened) or if it was just stuck somewhere in the orbiter (falling behind a seat, getting wedged into a tight space, etc.). Balon Greyjoy (talk) 13:13, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
- I would remove the sentence about the Corvette, it seems trivial to include a comment from her son.
- I would remove the long list of Space Shuttle missions that she worked as the CAPCOM, sine it's the majority of the final 20 or so missions. Maybe just state that she was "the lead CAPCOM for 16 Space Shuttle missions from STS-114 to STS-135, the final Space Shuttle flight."
I'll be back to add more comments. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 13:07, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
I think that's it. Nice work. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 14:46, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
- Support. An interesting life story well told. I made a couple of minor tweaks (spelling and dashes), but that was all I could find on a couple of readthroughs. Nice work. SchroCat (talk) 16:30, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
Source review edit
Footnote numbers refer to this version.
Missing the publisher location for Mullane, and also for the two books by Lucid listed in the Bibliography section.For cite news, you sometimes use the newspaper parameter and sometimes the publisher parameter. I could see a possible deliberate distinction between online news sites such as CNN, and newspapers such as the El Paso times, but for example there are two cites to Spaceflight Now, one done using the newspaper parameter and one with publisher.- Yes. Newspapers use the newspaper parameter and other news sites use the publisher. Both Spaceflight Now citations are now using publisher.
- I thought that might be the intention. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:14, 9 January 2023 (UTC)
- Yes. Newspapers use the newspaper parameter and other news sites use the publisher. Both Spaceflight Now citations are now using publisher.
Similarly for the press releases -- all are from NASA but you only give the publisher in some cases.There is one inconsistent web citation, to baynews9.com; it uses "website" but every other web cite uses publisher.The link for FN 8 doesn't work and there's no archive link. Same for FN 93.FN9 is to a newspapers.com page; can you clip the article so it's accessible to non-subscribers?FNs 55 & 56 are duplicates.
-- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:01, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
- All but one struck above. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:33, 9 January 2023 (UTC)
Pass. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:58, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
Support Comments by JennyOz
edit
Placeholder for now... JennyOz (talk) 15:00, 9 January 2023 (UTC)
Hi Hawkeye, I noticed it's nearly her 80th birthday, what a shame this won't be ready for TFA. Here are my comments...
lede
- At one time, she held the record - For some time?
- second para - there's 6 x Oklahoma in that short 2-sentence para. Maybe drop the city and state location from "the Oklahoma Medical Research Foundation in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma". Let readers assume the Foundation's whereabouts, they'll find out when they get into the article?
- She was the NASA Chief Scientist from 2002 to 2003, and she served - second "she" can go?
- for numerous Space Shuttle missions - wlink Space Shuttle Missions?
Early life
- bought a used Piper PA-16 Clipper that she used - preowned Piper? (avoids 2x used)
- named for the place and time - should place be piped to Kawai Point maybe that's where they were for sunrise? It's the correct spelling.
- during Lucid's honeymoon - the Lucids' honeymoon
NASA career
- Lucid was the only one who was a mother at the time - Lucid was the only mother at the time
- stated that this was not taken into consideration during - not a factor?
- certain aspects of the Space Shuttle program, - move link up to "including an introduction to the Space Shuttle program"
- x-ray astronomy - cap X, wlink
STS-34
- After this mission, - after the STS-51-G mission
- One casualty of the disaster was the Galileo project - not sure about using "casualty" here when the real casualties were 7 people. Suggest something like One consequence / repercussion of the disaster was the delay of the Galileo project?
- Lucid was the one primarily responsible - "the one" not necessary
- and initiated it}s deployment by - remove bracket
- Air Force Maui optical site - wlink?
- Lucid and Chiang-Diaz operated the PM experiment - Chang
STS-58
- known as an accelerometer recording units - drop "an" or "s" from units
- Along with Seddon, Wolf and Fettman, she collected blood - Lucid instead of she
- drew blood from the tails of the mice to measure - rats not mice
- Orbiter Columbia - is orbiter intentional proper noun here?
CAPCOM
Later life
- She later wrote about experience in her book - her or the or their experience?
misc
- But You’re A Girl!': - curly apostrophe
- at that point, because we’d - curly
- ‘You Didn’t Prepare Me’: Remembering America’s Galileo - 4x curlies
- ref Shayler, David ... Chicester, UK - Chichester
- I wandered off to try to understand the OV templates but am confused with the article's 3 different parameters:
- caption The first class of women astronauts. - that reads a bit ambiguously, as a class of only women? Maybe swap "of" to with? Or 'the first women astronauts' or 'Group 8's original women astronauts'
That's it. Enjoyed reading this bio. JennyOz (talk) 15:32, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
- Hi Jenny, how's it looking now? Gog the Mild (talk) 11:13, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
- G'day Gog - I had no ping from Hawkeye and supposed he was not yet ready for me (per "Let me think about this one"). It's looking fine though so I'm happy to s'port. Again I'll say though, it's a pity it won't be TFA in two days time for her 80th birthday. The article currently queued doesn't seem to have a 14 Jan connection? C'est la vie. JennyOz (talk) 11:58, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
- JennyOz, that was a pain, but your wish is my command. Done. Gog the Mild (talk) 16:06, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
- G'day Gog - I had no ping from Hawkeye and supposed he was not yet ready for me (per "Let me think about this one"). It's looking fine though so I'm happy to s'port. Again I'll say though, it's a pity it won't be TFA in two days time for her 80th birthday. The article currently queued doesn't seem to have a 14 Jan connection? C'est la vie. JennyOz (talk) 11:58, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
- Hi Jenny, how's it looking now? Gog the Mild (talk) 11:13, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
- Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Gog the Mild (talk) 12:26, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.