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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Sesame Street international co-productions/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose 23:42, 7 August 2014 [1].


Sesame Street international co-productions edit

Nominator(s): Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 22:22, 14 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Ah yes, yet another Sesame Street article at FAC. This article happens to be one of my favs, and is near and dear to my heart. I took it on when other editors began to complain about a lack of international perspective of The Show. I thought it was ridiculous feedback, since I, like Joan Ganz Cooney, thought that it's "quintessential American", but also like Cooney, was pleasantly surprised to be wrong. My single favorite Cooney quote is in this article; can you guess what it is? Anyway, this is a charming article about a charming aspect of the SS ethos, its international co-productions. I look forward to your feedback, and please enjoy. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 22:22, 14 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • Note: This is a WikiCup nomination. The following nominators are WikiCup participants: Figureskatingfan. To the nominator: if you do not intend to submit this article at the WikiCup, feel free to remove this notice. UcuchaBot (talk) 00:01, 15 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Fascinating topic - read this while I was at the gym - looked ok, will read again and drop queries below: Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:01, 17 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Cas; for some reason, this strikes me as funny. ;)
:Lone sentence constituting stubby third para in lead - can we tack it onto previous or expand or do something? I hate two-sentence paras.....
Went with first choice; the article isn't long enough to expand it. Usually, I tend to agree with this sentiment, but I think this could be an exception. However, I believe in following reviewers' suggestions, unless they're unreasonable, which this isn't.
Also would read better if in chronological order.
Done.
As of 2006, there were 20 active "co-productions". - I think we can remove quote marks after the first mention (?)
Got it.
The section co-productions is a tad listy in places...and leaves me curious - any more interesting facts that can be sprinkled through about any of the shows would improve the flow - also, do any US muppets feature in overseas co-productions?
At first, this section was a list! ;) I didn't want to include too much information, mostly because for most of the co-productions, there isn't that much information available. For the few that have more, I figured that most of the information belongs in their individual articles. However, I see your point and have started working on expanding some descriptions. I'll let you know when I think I'm finished. Re: your questions about how the U.S. Muppets are used: there's not a lot of information about that, either. I didn't want this to become a list of characters and their relationship to their American counterparts; again, that better fits in their individual articles, I think. However, in the "Production" section, there is some information about how our Muppets are used to inspire the co-productions' characters, and that they appear in the dubbed versions. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:00, 21 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
User:Casliber: I've completed, as per your request, expanding some of the co-productions descriptions; hopefully, it accomplishes what you've asked and the section is less list-y and flows better. Thanks for the review. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 17:25, 22 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Looking better. Some more:

Rejig segment on Rechov Sumsum - should explain why different straight after (i.e. the bit on being first co-production should come directly after mention of difference.
Took me a while to figure out what you meant, but I think I got this.
Sort of - really the bit beyond "differed/different" should be clearly indicated that it is causative with a "because" or linking word which indicates it, not "and" Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 01:28, 23 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I'll assume that my fix was satisfactory. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 17:34, 10 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
It'd be good if there was some conclusion on current status or future plans right at the bottom. Right now article just...ends. Not a huge deal but might be improved somehow.
Actually, I think this might be an issue with how this article is structured. At one point, this article looked like this: [2]--a list, really. I kept the structure because, as other editors advised me, there needed to be some information about the individual co-productions here. The previous section ("Production"), however, ends with the SW opening up their library for future co-productions; I think that accomplishes what you desire. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 21:38, 22 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Sigh, I know - I find alot of this is kinda like kneading dough - you squish and mould and other bits become distorted, so you knead some more. Let me look and think some more. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 01:28, 23 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Otherwise looking on target. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:33, 22 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • File:TakalaniSesame-set.jpg: FUR could use expanding. Who holds the copyright? Why is this image necessary for our understanding of the article? Same with File:Sisimpur.jpg
  • File:Tv_sesame_park_katie.jpg: puppet designs can be copyrighted - what is the status of this one? Nikkimaria (talk) 12:25, 21 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I took the easy way out and replaced these images with free ones. Please let me know if they're appropriate for this article. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 17:48, 22 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Support
  • The third paragraph of "History" and the second paragraph of "Production" do not end in references.
Got 'em.
  • How about adding fn 14 to the References?
Because my style of formatting sources, which is similar to how they're often formatted in printed books, is that I place printed sources like the Finch book in the Works cited section if it's used more than once. I only use Finch once in this article, so it gets its own footnote.
  • The lead mentions "the initial productions in Canada, Mexico, Australia," This made me expect something about the Australian co-production. 40 years at Sesame Street
I will do some research about the Aussie show and see if I can add anything. (Your source is a blog, which isn't reliable enough.) In the meantime, I removed the list of countries and changed the wording so that it better reflects the body.

Hawkeye7 (talk) 22:41, 9 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Hawk, I appreciate it. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 17:34, 10 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Tentative support; agreed with the nominator, this is both a charming and very necessary article in the SS canon. As always well-written and researched and conscientiously thorough in presentation. I especially like the generally nicely-judged level of detail in the chronological sections. Shoebox2 talk 21:26, 10 July 2014 (UTC) Just a few things that caught my attention (besides a couple very minor grammar/spelling errors I've taken the liberty of fixing):[reply]

  • First sentence under "History": international producers from various countries including Germany contacted the CTW within "a few months". Next sentence: German producers contacted the CTW after about a year. Not sure either about the time discrepancy or why Germany should be singled out in particular.
Good point; I removed the second mention of Germany.
  • "She hired former CBS executive Mike Dann, who left commercial television to become her assistant, as a CTW vice-president. One of Dann's tasks was to field offers to produce versions of Sesame Street in other countries." -- A bit awkward, and redundant. How about "Mike Dann, a former CBS executive whom Cooney had hired as a CTW vice-president and her assistant, was assigned to field offers from other countries to produce their own versions of Sesame Street."
Much better; replaced as per your suggestion.
  • Totally optional, based on your understanding of the subject, but: from what I've heard from (admittedly informal) British sources the story of the BBC's de facto rejection of the SS phenomenon is interesting enough that it might be worth a few more detailed sentences. At least, it would be instructive to know just why they thought it was "too controversial", which bare statement sounds really odd in re: a heartwarming children's puppet-based educational program. :)
Good question. My opinion is that this story, which I agree is interesting (and funny too), is best for Sesame Street in the UK. This article is a summary of the co-productions, which is in the current version. Any more would result in undue weight. On a side note, I've taken it upon myself to create/expand articles about the various co-productions, and the UK version(s) is in the queue, as they say. Currently, I've been working on Iftah Ya Simsim, the Arabic version. It's been a lot more work than I thought, because there's a lot of information out there about it (in English, even), but it's been fun. I believe that my efforts will do much to combat the systemic bias in this project, especially about non-Western topics. Wait for a future FAC near you! ;)
  • I feel like the third and fourth paragraphs in this section might be better off reversed? That is, begin by talking about the co-productions in general, and then talk about the specific highlights/controversies/spinoffs.
At first, I went "heh" about this suggestion, then I actually tried it and have decided that you're right. I wanted to end the section strongly, so I moved the last 2 sentences about mission and Cooney's quote about missionaries (that's my favorite all-time SS quote, btw) to a separate paragraph at the end.
  • "Production": "...the "experiment" accomplished by the original US show..." -- Not fond of 'accomplished' in this context; how about 'undertaken'?
Got it.
  • "Imitating what the producers did..." -- Getting nitpicky here I know, but maybe "In imitation of the process used by the producers..." would sound a bit more encyclopedic-like?
Well, *I think* that starting a sentence with a preposition isn't all that encyclopedia-like, either. So how about this for a compromise, even though it makes it passive: "The need for preschool education in each country was assessed through research and interviews with television producers, researchers, and educational experts, which paralleled what the producers of Sesame Street did in the late 1960s."
  • Again, thinking paragraphs 3-4 of this section might flow better if they were flipped--going from generalizations to specifics.
Okey dokey, smokey.
  • "1970s": "Garibaldo's performer, Fernando Gomes, became a puppeteer because of the show's influence." -- This is in reference to the American show, yes? Because as written, the reader's impression is he signed on as puppeteer on the Brazilian version, whereupon that version inspired him to become a puppeteer.
No, Gomes was inspired by the original Brazilian version. I can see how you were confused, so I re-checked the source and clarified.
  • "1980s": No doubt it's covered in the show's own article, but I'm thinking a sentence or two describing the impact of the Israeli/Palestinian co-produced version would be appropriate here. Ditto for the similarly ambitious Kosovo version.
Um, actually I wouldn't know; I haven't worked on those individual articles yet. However, as you state above, I'm trying to be even-handed here. I mean, why are the effects of the shows in the Middle East more important than the effects in Sweden? Because we have more invested in that region? Or because it's in the news more? I don't think this addition is necessary.
  • "1990s": "The show is supported by its patron, Egyptian First Lady Suzanne Mubarak." -- Should be past tense in light of more recent events, no?
Yes. Actually, it's a grammatical error, since it doesn't match the tense in the rest of the paragraph.
  • 2000s":...the producers of the Kosovo co-production... pioneered a format called the "visual dictionary". Instead of showing individual words on the screen, children were encouraged to label words verbally." -- ...? Not quite getting how "visual dictionary" and "label words verbally" refer to the same concept?
Yah, the source wasn't clear how the phrase ("visual dictionary") described what they were trying to do with the language, so I went back and paralleled the source more closely, and removed the phrase.

User:Shoebox2, I think that I've hit everything. Thanks for the very helpful review, and please let me know if I need to do anything more. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 23:15, 11 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

No worries, all now looks great from my POV, and as always thanks for so carefully considering my suggestions. Happy to change vote to firm support.Shoebox2 talk 01:29, 13 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Source comments from Ceranthor, prose comments to follow later
I figured it was acceptable because it's a press release. You're right, of course; replace it with this one, [3] which is the best I found. Will it work?
Yup, seems like a less reputable but reasonably reliable source.
  • FN 54 should list BBC News as the work, not just BBC.
Got it, thanks for the catch.
Um, it's the BBC News Asia site. Yes, news sources aren't reliable, but the incident (allegations of corruption) was a news story that was widely reported. I could replace it easily enough, if you like.
Nope, I made a mistake and hyperlinked the wrong source. I'm dumb.
No, stop it, you're not. I don't necessary agree that this source is inadequate, but I went ahead and found a better one, anyway. [4] Easy enough done, 'cause I just improved and brought Iftah Ya Simsim to GA; a delightful topic and article coming to an FAC soon! ;) Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 23:27, 31 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Lawrence Erlbaum Publishers is in Mahwah, not Mahweh, NJ.

ceranthor 02:06, 31 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Got it, thanks for the catch. Eagerly awaiting your prose review. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:52, 31 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Prose review underway! I'm sorry, I linked the wrong source because I'm a fool. Besides the one comment which I just tweaked, all resolved. :) ceranthor 21:19, 31 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Prose comments from Ceranthor
Lead
  • and extensive testing of the shows. - Assume this refers to test screening... I think you should replace testing with test screening if so.
Done.
  • Different versions were produced, depending upon each country's needs and resources, from dubbed versions of the original show to - Don't think shows get produced to. Not sure what you can use here to replace this. I like "Different co-productions were produced from dubbed versions of the original show depending upon each country's needs and resources and reflecting the needs, educational priorities, and culture of each country."
No, it just was worded awkwardly and unclearly. Changed to: "Different co-productions were produced, depending upon each country's needs and resources. They included both dubbed versions of the American show and versions created, developed, and produced in each country that reflected their needs, educational priorities, and culture."
  • The first HIV-positive Muppet, Kami, was created in 2003 to address the epidemic of AIDS in South Africa, - This seems out of place with the current sentence structure. I think this will be easily remedied if you start the sentence with something like, "For instance" or "For example". I also think you should mention in general which co-production depicted Kami (ie. Takalani Sesame or Africa or however you want to phrase it).
Good idea, done.
  • Why does it go 2001, then 2006, then back to 2001? Chronological order would make more sense I think. Fixed now. A sentence was repeated in the lead.
History
  • (In May 1970, the Mississippi state commission on educational television had voted to ban the show.)[5] - Why is this in parentheses? I would like it better as a footnote.
My foggy mind is trying to tell me that as I recall, this originally was in a footnote, but someone along the way, either for this article or another SS article, told me to move it into the article body. However, FAC reviews (IMO) trumps all earlier reviews, so I'm following your suggestion.
  • Thirty-eight Canadian Broadcasting Corporation - Should be 38.
Done.
  • found that viewers of these shows gain basic skills from watching them.[11] - Is the source more specific than "basic skills"?
Don't have access to this right now; will get to it and address this point later.
Production
  • They utilized a variant of a flexible model called "the CTW model" - No need to put this in quotes. Same with the earlier mention in the lead (sorry I missed that).
Done in both places.
  • The inherent flexibility of the CTW model was attractive to producers in other countries, who saw the model as "a methodological approach that is neither doctrinaire nor culture-bound", - No need to repeat "the model" when "it" will simply do.
Replaced with "its" instead, because it flows better.
  • who saw the model as "a methodological approach that is neither doctrinaire nor culture-bound",[15] and that could be used to achieve different results in different countries. - Rather than repeat "and that" after the quotation, I think you should 1.) omit the comma and 2.) say "which could be used...".
Done.
  • as also was done in the summer of 1968 for the US show.[17] - This is awkward and a bit wordy. I suggest replacing it with something more terse.
How about cutting the phrase thusly: "...as was done in 1968 in the US."
  • She stated that this "cultural specificity" was the reason for the co-productions' success, popularity, and educational impact.[7] - Not sure why the quotation is needed here. It doesn't fit with the rest of the sentence, which seems like a paraphrase, anyway.
'Cause I tend to over-quote, as I'm sure you can tell by now. Fixed.
Co-productions
  • Its set, or "street", - Why the quotes around street?
See above. I solved the problem here differently, though, by removing the phrase, since the set is described as a plaza.
  • Also in 1972, Plaza Sésamo was produced in Mexico. - Plaza Sésamo was also produced in Mexico in 1972. "Also in 1972" just doesn't work for me.
It's there because both the Mexican show and the Brazilian one started in '72. I prefer the current wording, but if you're insistent, I can change it.
  • 5, Rue Sésame, the most recent French version, began in 1976. Its set consists of a courtyard of a building in a small French town.[12] - Does it still run? It's unclear.
It's unclear because the French had a couple of versions, with different titles. It's a little confusing, so that comes out in the descriptions I've read. More research needs to be done to clear it up here, but since we only need a summary, how about we not refer to the fact that it's "most recent", and just strike the words. Done.
  • The show continued to be well-known, decades after it went off the air, and returned in 2013.[28][29] - I think the returned bit should be separated into a new sentence, perhaps with a bit of info on anything that's changed in this new version.
Done, thusly: "The show continued to be well-known decades after it went off the air. It returned in 2013, and had similar goals and objectives as the original version, including the use of Modern Standard Arabic (MSA)."
  • it was revived, still unlicensed, in 2010.[34][35] - The article doesn't mention that it was unlicensed, only that the program broke with Sesame Workshop. This should probably be clarified...
I don't claim this; it was added by another editor. I just removed it in the interest of balance. I'll keep the sources in mind as I work on the Filipino co-production, and maybe can add something more balanced later on. For now, I think the original wording is adequate.
  • A French dubbed version - Think there should be a hyphen here. Correct me if I'm wrong!
No, you're not wrong. Fixed. ;)
  • The show was supported by its patron, Egyptian First Lady Suzanne Mubarak. - Think sponsored would be a better word choice, assuming she provided the funding.
Okay, got it.
  • Switch between "comprising 40% of all Chinese homes" and "70 percent of children in urban areas". Please be consistent. Personally I think spelling it out looks better.
I agree, done. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 21:51, 1 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • to help re-build its educational - Don't think a hyphen is needed here. Rebuild is a word.
That's right, fixed.
  • and decrease drop-out rates for grades K-3. - Need an endash here. (sorry if you're using one and I just can't tell, again I'm a dunce)
Shut up! ;) It's occurred to me that "K-3" may be unclear, so I changed it to "children before the third grade."
  • ten years, and almost thirty years - Should be 30 to match rest of article.
Got it.
  • Takalani Sesame's 10th anniversary in 2010 - Since you've used first throughout the article, it should be tenth for consistency.
Got it, and thanks for catching all my inconsistencies. I appreciate it, really I do.

Stunning work as usual. I'll take another look once my comments are fixed. ceranthor 04:02, 1 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Looking forward to it. Ah shucks, such nice praise! And thanks for what you've done thus far; it really helps. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 21:51, 1 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I'm happy with all your tweaks and responses, so I'll happily support. Just waiting for that one thing for you to look up, but it's hardly a major issue. ceranthor 22:23, 1 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Ok thanks for the reminder; I've now made the change from Cole as per your request. I appreciate the support. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 03:24, 2 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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