Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Rupert Downes/archive2
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 31 August 2022 [1].
Rupert Downes edit
This article is about Rupert Downes, an Australian general of World War II. It was part of a series I wrote on senior Australian commanders in World War II. It was previously nominated back in 2011 and closed for lack of reviews. Maybeit can do better this time. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:07, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
Image review
- Don't use fixed px size
- File:Rupert_Downes.jpg: see WP:WATERMARK
- No idea what that is about. Uploaded a new version, from the same source, without watermark.
- File:Desert_Mounted_Corps_HQ_Staff.jpg: when was this first published? Nikkimaria (talk) 02:33, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
Comments Support by Zawed
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- Lead: The structure of the 1st paragraph seems a little odd to me, with the second sentence out of place chronologically with what follows.
- Education and early life section: the title of Downes' thesis has Thymus capitalised but the remainder, apart from the first word, is lower case. Just want to check that is correct.
- First World War section: it feels like the 2nd para needs to start with a mention of the commencement of the Gallipoli campaign for a bit of context.
- Maybe place his substantive promotion to colonel later, for better flow of chronology. There is also repeated usage of 1916 when it is clear that the timeline hasn't moved into 1917.
- especially the DMS EEF: although it is pretty obvious what it is for, the abbreviation doesn't seem to have been introduced.
- Is there another source that could be used for the Sinai campaign to reduce the reliance on Downes' own work?
Hope the above helps with getting this to FA. Cheers, Zawed (talk) 10:45, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
Comments from Harry edit
- was an Australian soldier, general, surgeon and historian in the first half of the 20th century seems a bit of a long intro. Can we not just say, for example, "was an Australian Army surgeon" for the first sentence and then expand upon it later?
- Should we italicise Australia in the War of 1939–1945? Its article does.
- Was he a particularly gifted musician?
- Soon after graduation, Downes enlisted in the Militia it says above he was a member of
- They had three children: do we need the names of non-notable offspring?
- Agree with Zawed that just a sentence or two of context on Gallipoli would be helfpul.
- In the Jordan valley in 1918, however, Downes was confronted with an epidemic not seeing the contradiction implied by the "however"
- Damascus contained over 3,000 sick and wounded Turkish soldiers How did he come to be responsible for the care of Turkish soldiers?
- Time soon vindicated his judgement in Wikipedia's voice, that's editorialising; if it's the opinion of a reliable source, it needs attribution
- Likewise remain his greatest legacy
- vindicated his judgement; and today the major military hospitals you don't need the semicolon and the "and"
- Downes held this post until 22 August 1944 new section so remind us which post
- Now nearly sixty, he then accepted an invitation to write he → Downes
Looks to be up to your usual standard; just a few quibbles! HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 16:46, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
- The article was created a long while ago, but I wanted to take it to Featured because I created it. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:47, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
- Hi HJ Mitchell, I was wondering if you felt in a position to either support or oppose this nomination? Obviously, neither is obligatory. Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 14:46, 22 August 2022 (UTC)
- Apologies for the delay. Support. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 11:52, 27 August 2022 (UTC)
- Hi HJ Mitchell, I was wondering if you felt in a position to either support or oppose this nomination? Obviously, neither is obligatory. Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 14:46, 22 August 2022 (UTC)
Support Comments from ErnestKrause
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Reflecting most of the positive comments made above, I'm wondering if there might be room for expanding the Legacy section with some added details here mostly reflecting what was included in the Wikipedia article for Australia in the War of 1939–1945. If this was to be his magnum opus, then maybe something like an adapted version of the passage from the main article might work as an adjusted CWW. Possibly mention the team of scholars who took over for him, how long it took them to write it, etc. It seems like his great unfinished project. ErnestKrause (talk) 00:31, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
- I have added a bit about it. The medical series was completed by Allan S. Walker. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:54, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
- Nice addition. Optionally, I think the very last volume of the series was written by new collaborators in addition to Walker. ErnestKrause (talk) 00:13, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
Source review edit
Footnote numbers refer to this version.
- The links in [41] and [68] don't work.
- What makes TheShipsList a reliable source?
Those are the only issues I can see. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:59, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
Pass. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:50, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
Comments from Mike Christie edit
I've copyedited a little; please revert anything you disagree with.
- I paused at the list of children's names, surprised to see "Major" there as if it were their surname. I realize it's completely accurate, but perhaps to avoid the reader's surprise we could make this something like "They had three children, all given the same middle name as Rupert: Rosemary Major, born in 1914; Valerie Major, born in March 1918; and John Rupert Major, born in 1922"?
- "until he returned to Anzac on 11 August": what does "Anzac" refer to here? I know what it stands for, but if it's the cove then shouldn't it be "ANZAC Cove"? I see instances of both all-caps and title case elsewhere.
- In this context, it refers to the Anzac Cove lodgement. And yes, it is Anzac Cove (Anzak Koyu). Unfortunately, the meaning of ANZAC has been drummed into schoolchildren, and it is a losing battle to keep changing all-capitals back to the (correct) sentence case. (And yes, we persuaded the Turks to name part of their country after people who came to invade the place.) Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:03, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
- Suggest linking heat stroke. And I had to think what "defective evaporation" might mean; presumably it means a humid environment in which perspiration does not evaporate well and hence fails to perform its cooling function? If so I think it could be clearer, particular as the heatstroke article isn't going to explain it as it's not the cause.
- Linked. The source says:
The cause of heat exhaustion and heat-stroke in the light horse and New Zealand troops was held by Lieutenant-Colonel C. J. Martin to be not only defective evaporation, as has been maintained, but excessive loss combined with grossly insufficient intake of fluid under conditions of heavy muscular effort. The moral is obvious, namely, that unnecessary water discipline may easily become a calamity if not correlated with a due regard for physiological requirements in regard to fluid intake. It is in limitation of the frequency of drinking in relation to the available water supply that water discipline is physiologically sound and militarily valuable.
- Linked. The source says:
- Suggest "third from left" rather than "centre" for the caption of the 1936 picture, as there are an even number of men in the front row.
- "The two men had discussed the prospect": what does "prospect" refer to? The prospect of writing about the events of the war?
- "one of the chapters of the Official History": I think this is a reference to the book, not the concept, so italics would be appropriate.
- I can see that the paragraphs of the "Interwar years" section can't be ordered strictly chronologically, because the threads they cover extend across different ranges of years. I was going to suggest that the paragraph about John's illness and death be moved up before the previous paragraph, but after thinking about it some more I think it would be better to move it down one paragraph instead. The paragraph starting "On 20 August 1934" starts with Downes taking a full time position in the army, which would follow naturally after the end of the paragraph about John.
That's everything I have; all minor issues. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:22, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
Support. It would be nice to clarify the "defective evaporation", but the source doesn't allow it. I searched for historical explanations of heat stroke in 19th century books, via Google, and found some relevant quotes, but nothing I think you can use. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:13, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
Support Comments by JennyOz
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Hi Hawkeye, another fine bio. Just a few comments and questions...
Lede
- After the war, he wrote articles - haven't mentioned a war yet - could add to "He served in the Gallipoli campaign" of the first world war? Too pedantic?
- of the newly-formed - remove adverbial hyphen
- Sinai and Palestine Campaign - lowercase c per Gallipoli campaign?
- Children's Hospital, Melbourne and - geocomma
- but was never able to do so as he was killed in a plane crash in March 1945. - the "never" sounds strange to me, maybe 'but was unable to do so...' or, more simply, 'but was killed in a plane...'
Education and early life
- children of Colonel Major Francis Downes - link father again
- Linked
- Roberts' painting - Roberts's per Downes's apos styles?
- Roberts' painting - link The Big Picture (painting)?
- Roberts' painting alt "we a sea of people looking on" - with?
First World War
- the Gallipoli Campaign, - campaign per lede?
- departed Alexandria for on 17 May 1915 - missing word? or remove "for"
- to ANZAC Cove for vs he returned to Anzac (I get confused, we use caps for corps but not for place?)
- Yes. Caps for the corps only.
- returned to the Anzac lodgement - caps?
- Anzac Mounted Division - ANZAC per Mounted Division elsewhere
- Es Salt - wlink Es-Salt?
- James Martin, [25] and - remove space before ref
- care for the living.The task was - add space
- For his service in the Sinai and Palestine Campaign - c?
Interwar years
- surgeon at the Royal Children's Hospital, Melbourne and - comma
- Medical Journal of Australia - wlink
- of her fund raising efforts - fundraising usually one word? (if not add hyphen as a compound)
- Air Board - wlink Air Board (Australia)
- Department of Health - change wlink to Department of Health (1921–1987)
- Ethel Bruce - wlink
Second World War
- image Generals Simpson, Blamey, and Morshead pay their respects... - move this photo to Death and legacy section?
- military hospitals in the capital cities. - maybe add Australia's capital cities
- Linked to List of Australian capital cities
- Repatriation Commission - poss pipe to Repatriation Department?
Death and legacy
- DMS of Second Army until - the Second per elsewhere?
- increasingly had less and less to do. - "and less" is redundant? (increasingly says it)
- Barron River near Cairns. - add Queensland
- the third most senior Australian - hyphen/s? (Couldn't see in MOS. I checked online and there are various opinions: don't hyphenate since meaning is clear; hyphenate twice ie third-most-senior because most modifies senior and third modifies most, and Australian is a noun.)
- The Commonwealth Style Guide says: Don’t use hyphens when the phrase is after the noun in the sentence structure. So no hyphens. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:05, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
- Strange fact: we lost four generals in the First World War, all of whom were killed in action. Also four in the Second, but three of them were killed in air crashes, and one died from natural causes. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:05, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
- That is interesting.(better than poss 14 in a few months) JennyOz (talk) 07:49, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
- Strange fact: we lost four generals in the First World War, all of whom were killed in action. Also four in the Second, but three of them were killed in air crashes, and one died from natural causes. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:05, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
- The Commonwealth Style Guide says: Don’t use hyphens when the phrase is after the noun in the sentence structure. So no hyphens. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:05, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
- Paul's Cathedral, Melbourne on - comma
- editor in chief - hyphenate?
- quit due to ill-heath in - health
- was particularly interested"[75] - full stop
- The subject of the Lecture is - lowercase lecture?
- Rupert Downes Memorial Lectures - create a redirect for?
- Sir Albert Coates The Doctor in the Services - wlink Albert Coates (surgeon)
- D. Trunkey I am Giddy, - link Donald Trunkey (per "I am Giddy")
Refs
- ref 45 Honours and Awards AWM - has moved?
- ref 49 Downes & Anderson 1942 - page no/s?
- Walker, Allan S. - author-link
Category
- is in cat 'Deaths in tropical cyclones' but Cairns crash in prose doesn't mention a cyclone?
That's me. JennyOz (talk) 16:03, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
- Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Ian Rose (talk) 19:56, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.