Wikipedia

Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Olive Morris/archive1

< Wikipedia:Featured article candidates
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Hog Farm via FACBot (talk) 18 April 2022 [1].

Olive Morris edit

Nominator(s): Mujinga (talk) 13:38, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Olive Morris was a Black activist in the 1970s and no doubt would be better known had she not died tragically young. She grew up in South London and became a squatter activist, involved in Black liberation groups such as the British Black Panther Movement, Brixton Black Women's Group and the Race Today Collective. When she studied in Manchester, she was quick to become involved in local campaigns, and upon returning to London her activism continued before being cut short at the age of 27. Her legacy has recently been invigorated by the Remembering Olive Collective and with the help of other contributors I've hopefully improved the page through a Good article review and a peer review. Special thanks go to Amitchell125 and SusunW. I think the article is now in a state ready for the front page, so all constructive criticism is welcome and I hope to reply to any actionable points as promptly as possible. This is my first submission to FAC. Mujinga (talk) 13:38, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hiya Gog the Mild thanks for adding Olive Morris to Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates/Image and source check requests. Can I doublecheck whether the comments from SusunW and/or Caeciliusinhorto could be enough for a source review? Otherwise should I be asking people for help on this? Mujinga (talk) 10:07, 5 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Fair point. (I should have thought of it!) @SusunW and Caeciliusinhorto: I am more than happy with the thorough source to text integrity checks. I wonder if either or both of you would care to opine on the more general aspects of sourcing? Eg are sources all high-quality and reliable, are the citation and referencing styles appropriate and consistent etc. Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 10:51, 5 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Mujinga and Gog the Mild: you know that I am reluctant to comment on formatting or technical stuff, as it is not my forté. Mujinga and I disagree on the citation style as I find it difficult to read "around" in-line citations, but I grant the reasons they prefer this style are valid. The sources are for the most part high-quality and curated. (I honestly believe that all accessible materials were evaluated in preparing the article.) During the peer-review, Mujinga reformatted materials to reflect title case and consistent ISBN formatting. There are three sources in version 1081103085 the piece by Obi (#27), Abasindi Co-operative (#39) and Lopez de la Torre's (#51) which are blogs/self-published. Obi and Lopez's piece were published by the Olive Morris collective, which was formed by academics seeking to recover Morris' legacy and Abasindi is published by the Manchester Central Library. Thus, IMO it is unlikely that any of them would present materials that might harm their reputations or the subject's and they appear to be reliable. The Abasindi piece could be replaced by a citation to Bettocchi's thesis if deemed necessary. I note that the name is flipped in the Lopez de la Torre (her first name is shown as last). Were it me (I understand that I am OCD and overly detail-oriented), I would add locations to all publishers (at present they only appear for books) and issn and oclc identifiers where available for journal articles, as it is often difficult for those of us with no access to formal library systems to access web links and these identifiers are often requested by those who hold articles to attain copies of them. SusunW (talk) 14:37, 5 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Gog the Mild – I agree with Susun on the suitability of sources: they're reliable, primary sources are used appropriately, and I can find no high-quality reliable sources that have been omitted. I've fixed the misformatting of the Ana Lopez de la Torre source that Susun identified. I haven't combed through citation formatting in detail, but I don't see any obvious issues with consistency; I'm busy for the remainder of this week but can try to find time over the Easter weekend if nobody else can check that before then. Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 16:45, 5 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • File:Olive_Morris_died_1979.jpg needs a more expansive FUR, and is any more information available on provenance? Nikkimaria (talk) 13:50, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • Thanks for the comment, the rationale has been expanded. Re provenance, I already contacted the Lambeth Archives and they said "The ownership/copyright status of the Olive Morris collection at Lambeth Archives is complex. Therefore, sadly, Lambeth Archives isn't in a position, to assist with this request." Mujinga (talk) 21:04, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      Just to add, Victuallers has helpfully emailed Remembering Olive Collective, Fawcett Society, Blackpast.org and the National Archives on 17 March to ask if they can supply a free picture. Mujinga (talk) 17:49, 21 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      • Nikkimaria There's been no replies to the various email requests, so I guess we can assume we won't get one. I expanded the FUR, anything else I can do on images? Thanks Mujinga (talk) 15:24, 30 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Spot check - pass edit

I did an extensive examination during the peer review and spot checked every reference. I can confirm that the information in the article is supported by the citations. SusunW (talk) 14:07, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Susun W edit

  • In the second sentence in Adult life and activism, we need context. To avoid repeating 1960s and 1970s, perhaps insert "in the last half of the 20th century".
  • "not only notions" begs a comparison. Not only British, "but Caribbean"?
    • hmm yes and "style" is repeated from a few sentences earlier .. i'll come back on that one. feel free to adjust since you were already adding stuff here Mujinga (talk) 20:54, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      • I added it with the citation to the Windrush fashion source, as I noted another reviewer also commented that it seemed to be lacking a comparison. SusunW (talk) 13:59, 17 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
        • nice! and i rejigged it a but to avoid using the word "style" so much. hopefully it's better now :) Mujinga (talk) 21:11, 17 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • flip the references after "his arm was broken" and "ain't no girl" so that they are in numerical order.
  • "later beaten in police custody", perhaps "while" in?
    • for me that reads ok, happy to see what others think Mujinga (talk) 20:54, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • flip the references after "radical feminist" to fix numerical order
  • ditto for after "activities without any public funding", "Olive Morris Manuscript Collection at the Lambeth Archives"
    • done - thanks for the eagle eyes on this! Mujinga (talk) 20:54, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Overall, great job. I would like to see a bit in the legacy section on why historians believe she was a significant figure, but others may disagree. SusunW (talk) 14:54, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Absolutely^^^ legacy is more than buildings and street names, but who was influenced and how; the former might be demolished and renamed, but the latter rings through the ages with ripples still seen today. SN54129 15:53, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed on this, but it's been quite hard to find stuff talking about her historical significance since she is still very much a marginalised figure - as is shown by the problems finding a photograph of her and indeed her political comrades such as Beverley Bryan, Elouise Edwards, Altheia Jones-LeCointe and Liz Obi Mujinga (talk) 21:11, 17 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Go back to the peer review where I wrote "Longley p 131 says examining her life", several scholars I noted there analyze her significance. SusunW (talk) 22:38, 17 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I was replying more to Serial Number 54129 but I do remember that peer review discussion. Longley is talking about the narrative about Morris presented in the archives and her reaction to that. I was hoping the Bettocchi PhD might have more on her legacy but I didn't see much there. Caeciliusinhorto is also asking about legacy below so I'll have to go back into the sources but I don't think there's a huge amount there to be honest. Having said that I'm sure I can find something and perhaps flesh out the work of the Remembering Olive Collective a bit too. Mujinga (talk) 10:41, 19 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I've had another look in the sources: I've added a quote from Fisher and some more info from Ford; I didn't see much more to add from Bettocchi and Longley. I note I recently added a source from Bristol University for Black History Month about the contributions of Obi and Morris. See what you think! Mujinga (talk) 12:20, 19 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Based on everything I have read, you are correct to not make her "the figurehead", as you said below. The legacy I have in mind and maybe Caeciliusinhorto will look this over too, is something like this very rough first stab at it: An examination of Morris's life provides insight into the collective Black experience in Britain during the 1960s and 1970s.(Longley 2021, p 131; Ford 2016, p 8)(Bryan, Dadzie, Scafe 2018, pp 151, 155) The erasure of the Black community from British history of the period has been challenged by 21st-century scholarship which has examined individual lives of community members like Morris.(Reilly 2019; Longley 2021, p 131; Bettocchi 2021, pp 97-99) Analysis of her life by the Remembering Olive Collective and academics like Ford has brought to light the common struggle of British Black women with women across the African, Asian, and Caribbean diasporas against classism, colonialism, and sexism and the need for more comprehensive study of these intersections.(Reilly 2019) Harrison argues that uncovering Morris's participation in the squatting movement was significant as it showed a lack of academic research into the politics of housing.(Fisher 2012, p 75) Both Harrison and Bettocchi note that Morris's experiences reflected how the politicization of housing and homelessness impacted the Black community, as well as single and/or childless people.(Fisher 2012, p 75)(Bettocchi 2021, pp 99-100) I also see that (Perri W 2019) says her campaigning was successful in motivating the Lambeth council to buy abandoned flats in 1973 to address housing issues. SusunW (talk) 20:08, 19 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the suggestion! I don't really feel the article needs this, I think there is already enough on her legacy dotted through the article and we have (with your peer review suggestions) contextualized the time of Black liberation struggles in England in which Morris was active. But maybe I can't see the wood for the trees any more. I left it a few days to wait for other opinions, now I'll ping Caeciliusinhorto to see what they think and I'll also ask Carbon Caryatid. Mujinga (talk) 09:41, 25 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I think on the whole I agree with Mujinga on this point. Though I think Susun's proposed text interesting, I also worry that it is more a conclusion to an academic essay than it is a part of a wikipedia bio? Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 18:38, 28 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Far be it from me to hold this up over such a small part of the article. Honestly, Mujinga, you have done a fine job on this and I genuinely appreciate your efforts on it. Support SusunW (talk) 19:38, 28 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks SusunW, that peer review was epic and we found so much extra stuff together! Mujinga (talk) 15:21, 30 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support from GhostRiver edit

I will take a look at this later. — GhostRiver 17:09, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • In the infobox, "London UK" -> "London, UK"
  • "she was beaten up" -> "she was assaulted"
    • is this a BrEng/USEng thing? Beaten up seems more appropriate to me Mujinga (talk) 11:08, 19 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Brixon, South London" potential MOS:SEAOFBLUE concerns?
    • I don't think two in a row is seaofblue, could lose "south" i suppose and not link London, but the benefits of mentioning south outweigh this Mujinga (talk) 11:08, 19 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "squatted buildings" or "squatted in buildings"?
    • former reads fine to me, happy to supply academic sources to back that up Mujinga (talk) 11:08, 19 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "another was used" -> "while the other was used"
    • she squatted way more than two buildings, so then it's more saying: one .. another .. (unspecified others) Mujinga (talk) 11:08, 19 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Her life and work have been commemorated both by official organisations – Lambeth Council named a building after her – and by the activist group Remembering Olive Collective (ROC)." -> "Her life and work have been commemorated both by official organizations like the Lambeth Council, who named a building after her, and by the activist group Remembering Olive Collective."
    • I am not a big fan of dashes, don't use them myself, but don't see much difference here Mujinga (talk) 11:33, 19 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and has featured on lists of inspirational Black British women" This feels like quite a vague statement
    • it's summarising the mast paragraph which says she appears in the Voice and Evening Standard lists Mujinga (talk) 11:36, 19 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and then followed them" -> "before following them"
    • hmm maybe it's not clear the way it is that the grandmother was in Jamaica? Mujinga (talk) 11:33, 19 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Migrants are affected by both local and transnational factors." Sentence doesn't flow as the header of the paragraph; the second sentence feels like a better start
  • "access to housing and jobs was"; awkward syntax. Could be read as "access to X and (to) Y" for the singular, or "access to X (thing one) and Y (separate item)" for the plural, if that makes sense
    • changed "jobs" to "employment", hopefully that helps Mujinga (talk) 11:33, 19 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Just over five feet tall, she gained a reputation as a fierce activist." Is this where I make a no correlation joke? (In seriousness, the connection between her height and reputation is only implicit as currently worded)
  • "She was described as other activists" -> "Other activists described her"
    • then the second part reads funny so I haven't changed it Mujinga (talk) 11:33, 19 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "wrote up"
    • i prefer wrote up, happy to hear other opinions Mujinga (talk) 11:33, 19 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and several other people" -> "and several others"
  • "trumped up charges" unencyclopedic phrasing
    • Another BrEng/USeng thing perhaps? Could change to "fabricated" Mujinga (talk) 11:33, 19 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the prosecution case" -> "the prosecution's argument"
    • since both case and prosecut- are previously mentioned, I've just chopped that phrase Mujinga (talk) 11:33, 19 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why was she sent away from the hospital?
    • Here's what the source says (Longley p130): When interviewed by the ROC, Gerlin Bean (2009, pp. 5–6) spent time recounting her experience of Olive’s sudden deterioration in health: ‘She’s always messing around and laughing and carrying on, and then she starts rolling around on the floor, and said: “oh, such a pain”. And I said: “Olive stop messing around” and she said: “no, I really have this pain”’. They urgently took a taxi to King’s College Hospital: ‘we went and then they told her, you know what they told her? That she has gas [laughter], and they gave her some tablets and things and said go away’. But the pain persisted, and it was only after some time that they discovered the true cause of her illness, non-Hodgkin lymphoma. Mujinga (talk) 11:36, 19 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Mostly very nitpicky prose stuff to cut out fluff, or areas where there's some confusing syntax. Overall very good and informative! — GhostRiver 18:16, 18 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the comments, I've implemented changes for some and queried others Mujinga (talk) 11:36, 19 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hi GhostRiver, are you in a position yet to either support or oppose this nomination? Obviously, neither are obligatory. Gog the Mild (talk) 17:32, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Mujinga and Gog the Mild, a few points I still want to address.

  • I think "assaulted" reads better in the lede, as "beaten up" reads a bit too informal
  • I don't love the presence of dashes in the lede still
  • Would like the bit from the source to be included that she was sent away with nausea medication.

— GhostRiver 21:27, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for taking another look GhostRiver. I've changed to "assaulted" since another reader also flagged that up and added tablets. For the dashes, I think I'll check with other editors since it seems a stylistic preference to change it. Mujinga (talk) 09:56, 5 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I asked SN54129 below and they thought the dashes worked Mujinga (talk) 13:41, 5 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Everything serious has been addressed on my end. Happy to Support. — GhostRiver 18:31, 12 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Drive-by comment edit

  • Publisher locations are missing from Fisher; Ford; and Scafe.
  • When citing books or journal articles it is usual to give only the year of publication. (The latter may also have the volume and/or issue.)
Gog the Mild (talk) 22:59, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed, much obliged Mujinga (talk) 00:08, 17 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Caeciliusinhorto edit

I made a few comments at peer review, but it looks as though the article has expanded quite a bit since then. On the first readthrough this looks good: two quick comments on prose:

  • "Her personal style choices challenged not only notions of what it meant to be British" - suggests that we're going to get some sort of "but also challenged foo", but it never comes, and the paragraph ends leaving us hanging.
    • Indeed! That the sentence/section has been rejigged Mujinga (talk) 21:14, 17 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Black" is mostly capitalised throughout, but Longley is described as a "black history researcher" and there's one mention of Morris' "blackness", both lowercased – is this intentional?
    • good spot, capitalised these two for consistency. Mujinga (talk) 21:14, 17 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Will comment properly later Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 12:03, 17 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Please do return! Your comments at the peer review were helpful and like you said the article ended up expanding rather nicely Mujinga (talk) 21:14, 17 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Reading through the article again, a somewhat nitpicky point:

  • "[Morris was] charged with assault occasioning actual bodily harm ... she was accused of kicking an officer. The jury found her not guilty on that charge." - implies to me that there were multiple charges: if so, do we know the verdicts? If not, just "The jury found her not guilty" is probably sufficient.
    • You are picking up on a point where the source (the Howe biography) is a bit vague, since it says "As a result, the judge instructed the jury to retire and reach a verdict on the charges facing Morris and Macintosh relating to the assault of PC Reid. Although he provided no formal direction, it was clear that he was asking the jury to find Morris and Macintosh innocent prior to their defence. Conspicuously absent was any direction regarding Howe. The jury found in favour of the defendants, Macintosh was discharged, Morris faced two further charges" (p173). I looked into it a bit further and this BBC source says all three were acquitted so that solves it, the other charges must have not stuck either, so I'll rephrase Mujinga (talk) 10:18, 19 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      • Hmm, that's all very vague, isn't it! Good job on finding the other source Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 10:43, 19 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I also have a few questions where I suspect the answer is "the sources don't say" but I'll ask them anyway:

  • When Morris went back to college to study for her O- and A-Levels, I don't suppose we know where? We list her schools and her university.
    • no couldn't find this information Mujinga (talk) 10:21, 19 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • The article quotes Longley mentioning Morris' "long-term white-skinned partner", and there are two mentions of Mike McColgan (presumably said partner) in Morris' last year, but do we know anything else about this relationship? When did they meet?
    • the closest we've got is his recent obituary (RiP) where it says they met in the mid-1970s Mujinga (talk) 10:21, 19 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      • Yeah, I didn't expect you to find much on these points, but it's always worth checking – ah, well, if the sources don't say something, then there's not much we can do... Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 10:43, 19 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Finally, for the section on legacy, has anyone discussed the question of Morris' long-term signficance in the context of the black rights, feminist, or housing equality movements? The Voice "listed eight Black women who have contributed to the development of Britain" and included Morris, but how? Did her campaigning lead to any sort of legal change, or inspire a change in how activist groups organised or campaigned? The Voice doesn't say, but perhaps someone has...

  • SusunW is also pressing this point above so I'll have another dip into the sources, I am uneager to make it seem that Morris was THE figurehead of black liberation in the UK but it seems I do need to add more. Thanks! Mujinga (talk) 10:23, 19 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • Yes, if the answer turns out to be "nobody has discussed this and overegging Morris' long-term signficance wouldn't be neutral" then that's fine! If the current state of the article is a genuine reflection of Morris' legacy, then I'm happy with that – but again I just thought it was worth asking. If I find anything potentially worth using, I will let you know! Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 10:43, 19 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'll have a closer look at sourcing over the weekend, but so far the article looks to be in excellent shape and I'm anticipating supporting. Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 22:22, 17 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, looking at sourcing now:

  • There are a few uses of primary sources, but these all seem to be acceptable either as supporting citations for things backed up by secondary sources, or uncontentious statements of fact.
  • The use of radical magazines and books published by independent radical presses seems to be appropriate, and balanced by Mainstream ScholarshipTM
  • Overall I'm not seeing any sources that I'm super concerned about the usage of in the abstract.

Going to spot check a few sources, chosen at random (actually random, using a random number generator, not just arbitrarily!). I'm referring to them with the numbers as of this revision.

  • 5, the National Archives source: used in discussion of Dick Shepphard School. Supports the claim that the school closed in 1994. Doesn't support that the school was girls' only or that Morris attended it, but the accompanying citations do support both those facts. "Other sources such as BBC News,[4] Brixton Black Women's Group[3] and the National Archives,[5] give different school names" – the BBC news source supports that Morris went to Dick Shepphard School, and presumably the school records held in the National Archives would confirm that, but the source cited is the National Archives' catalogue information for their records on the school, which doesn't support this.
    • In the note, 5 is being used the first time to show the school is called Dick Sheppard School, second time to show it closed in 1994. As you correctly observe, other sources are used to show Morris went there. Shall I removed the first mention? Mujinga (talk) 12:33, 19 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      • Gah, I've just spent an hour trying to work out what is going on with schools here, and it's all a muddle. A convenient local government publication called something like "Schools in Tulse Hill, 1955-70" is proving frustratingly elusive! There's an archive catalogue entry in London Metropolitan Archives (https://search.lma.gov.uk/SCRIPTS/MWIMAIN.DLL/300073541/2/11/575371?RECORD&UNION=Y&URLMARKER=STARTREQUEST) which suggests that Dick Sheppard School was also called Tulse Hill Comprehensive, not to be confused with the boys' school which is Tulse Hill School (previously the Strand School). Lavender Hill Girls' School clearly existed in some form, and the fact that it was a girls' school suggests a secondary to me. I'd be inclined to throw my hands up in defeat and cut the note back to something like "The ODNB says that Morris went to Heathbrook Primary, Lavender Hill Girls' School, and Tulse Hill School; the BBC says Lavender Hill Primary and the Dick Sheppard School." (With a Wikipedian fear of original research, we might even note that the fact that Tulse Hill School was boys only in 1974 doesn't preclude it from being mixed when Morris was there, though a comprehensive school going from mixed to single sex would be odd!) Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 16:48, 19 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
        • Yes working through the school stuff is a bit of a nightmare! We got into it at the bottom of Talk:Olive_Morris#FA_nomination in case you didn't see that already. I'll take another look now. Mujinga (talk) 17:43, 21 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
        • I have chopped the note a bit, now I'm wondering whether to chop it more and to just say in the article "Morris went to several schools in South London" and then only have the first half of the note saying "The Oxford Dictionary of National Biography states: "Olive attended Heathbrook primary school and then Lavender Hill Girls' Secondary School and Tulse Hill secondary school." A BBC News article says "Lavender Hill Primary School and Dick Sheppard School in Tulse Hill"." The alternative is to leave it as is and say the names of then schools in the article but then have the note to explain why the sources differ. I blame the ODNB factcheckers for this mess by the way! Mujinga (talk) 18:01, 21 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • 17, "The Psychology of Windrush Style": doesn't explicitly discuss Morris' personal style choices, but there are two other citations (which I do not currently have access to but have requested) which may do that. As a supporting citation it is okay for the claim that the fashion choices of Carribean-British people in the 1960s and 1970s challenged ideologies of Britishness.
    • Happy to send over any sources you need! Mujinga (talk) 12:33, 19 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • 40, "Black Women's Groups". We write: "Locke had set up the Manchester Black Women's Co-operative (MBWC) in 1975 with Coca Clarke and Ada Phillips; Morris got involved and members later recalled her vigour.[40]: 2, 15". Looking at this version of the article, linked on the CUP website, I think the correct page numbers are 1, 15, and 17? I'm also not immediately seeing support for Morris' involvement in *MWBC* in this article; it talks about her joining *BWMA*, and the two groups seem to have overlapping membership but are distinct entities?
    • Damn I printed the open access version of the article and it has 28 numbered pages so there will be differences, I'll fix that now using this authoritative version with 21 pages. On page 14, it says "When discussing the conflict between the MBWC and Ron Phillips over the mismanagement of company funds, Tsele noted that Morris ‘was not in with those sorts of fights, those were just for us, grassroots’, noting that she ‘just used to come and help us with the intellectual bits, about how the system was working’" - so that shows Morris was involved with MBWC (as well as BWMA) Mujinga (talk) 12:43, 19 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • 40 is also used to support the discussion of the collapse of MBWC and its reformation of Abasindi; it supports the first part of this sentence.
  • 41 also used in the discussion of MWBC/Abasindi: along with 38 and 40, this supports the claims made.
  • 54: along with 55, supports the claims made about Breeze Yoko's Olive Morris mural.

Other less systematic checks I have done while reading the article for the PR and this FAC didn't bring up concerns, so the main worry is the pagination of ref 40, and whether you've confused MWBC and BWMA in that paragraph? Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 11:54, 19 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for that I've think I've answered everything (and note that I recently added another source answering other comments so after 29, numbers are +1). Mujinga (talk) 12:49, 19 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I wanted to get back to you sooner, but the last week has been super busy for me. Time for me to stop dithering and support Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 18:41, 28 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Harry edit

Not a subject I'm familiar with but I'll give it a go. I probably owe you a couple of reviews from my police shootings. At a glance, looks good.

  • At the age of 17, she was beaten up Personally, I would say "beaten up" is bordering on too informal for an encyclopaedia but I won't push it if you disagree because it is at least succinct and understandable.
    • GhostRiver suggested above replacing with "she was assaulted", would that be an improvement? Mujinga (talk) 11:22, 26 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      • That would work.
  • following an incident That's not a lot of detail, even for the lead. Is there anything else that can be said without bogging down the lead?
    • nothing springs to mind to summarise it better and the subheading calls it an incident. the diplomat does not appear to be otherwise notable Mujinga (talk) 11:22, 26 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • She joined the British Black Panthers... The lead doesn't explicitly say that this is a result of the Nigerian diplomat incident, but the placement implies it. Can we be clearer?
    • the sources say it was a formative experience, it's a bit hard to be more specific since we don't have a definite date when she joined the Panthers Mujinga (talk) 11:22, 26 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm guessing you would have included it if there was, but is there anything much to say about how/why she or her parents moved to Britain? Were they part of one of the mass migration events from the Caribbean?
    • It's a good question, unfortunately there isn't information in the sources. I think even Windrush was mentioned at one point but I took it out because it wasn't backed by the citation Mujinga (talk) 11:22, 26 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      • Windrush was what I had in mind when I asked the question, as well as London Transport's recruitment of of workers from the Caribbean, but if we don't know, we don't know.
  • at the Victoria University of Manchester between 1975 and 1978 This is pedantry really, but hey, pedantry is what FAC is all about! By a strict literal reading, that sentence means "in 1976 and 1977", but I'm assuming you mean "from 1975 to 1978".

Very little to criticise really. A succinct yet comprehensive and well-written article. I'll doubtless support once you've had a chance to look over my nit picks. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 13:45, 25 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for dropping by! I've replied to the comments Mujinga (talk) 11:22, 26 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
A couple of replies inline, but the resolution on those is not going to cause me to lose any sleep. For what it's worth, I've read the ODNB and it compares well to this article. I see no evidence of overly close paraphrasing, it appears to support all the claims it's cited for, and everything of importance in the ODNB is also in the Wikipedia article. Support. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 16:43, 26 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Serial edit

Placeholder, but I usually get a nosebleed if I go that far saarf. SN54129 11:53, 26 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Never mind south, isn't this about 600 years too modern for you? ;) HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 16:45, 26 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Harry, how did you guess I spend my evenings flicking the light switch on and off in wonderment? "Give me the secret of thy Elektrickery!"  :) SN54129 13:18, 5 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Other commenters are pretty much done just so you know. One thing I'd like to ask is since you use dashes at John Minsterworth, what do you think about the use of dashes in the lead here? Mujinga (talk) 10:58, 5 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Mujinga: I am wholly embarrassed at not looking at this important article like I said. Apologies, I'll look now. FTR, it was near-support worthy when you nominated it so I don't foresee anything too drastic.
Re. dashes, as you know I probably overuse them myself—I find them a useful halfway house between commas and brackets. I think your use in the lead is fine, as it sets off a parenthetical statement while keeping the reading smooth. SN54129 13:18, 5 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oh no worries I figured you were waiting on other reviewers to finish up. Thanks for the reply on dashes! Mujinga (talk) 13:42, 5 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Maybe "she continued her activism while studying at the Univ of Manch".
    • Having read it both ways a few times out loud, I think I prefer the current sentence as a link between two lists of groups she was involved with Mujinga (talk) 11:54, 6 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Obviously linking the African nations you list would be WP:SKYBLUE, but there might be a case for lining them to their respective liberation struggles? (I certainly don't object to leaving them unlinked either; could be slightly EASTEREGGy, I know. And bloody complicated.)
    • that's a good idea, resolved by not really being able to find articles on black liberation in X and I think linking to specific groups eg Front for the Liberation of Zimbabwe in the case of Zimbabwe would be a bit eastereggy indeed Mujinga (talk) 11:54, 6 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "adornment, clothing, and hair styles" - maybe link to Black British identity?
    • I don't mind to link it but wondering where. On "choice"? Mujinga (talk) 11:55, 6 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Perhaps, "grassroots problems affecting her community". H'mm. That double-plurarl doesn't read great either. It's just that, as it is, these undefined problems are a little vague.
    • true. the sentence is a bit divorced from " continued to experience racism; access to housing and employment was restricted in discriminatory ways and Black communities were put under pressure by both the police and fascist groups such as the National Front" above. hmmm could change to "fight for community rights"? That's also quite vague Mujinga (talk) 11:58, 6 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Any chance of more on why her assault led directly to Marxist-Leninism and rad feminism? I mean, the link's an obvious one to those involved in the movement, but in this article, it's unclear that she isn't already either of those things!
    • not really, the sources are pretty vague, it's even unclear exactly when she joined, so everyone seems to say a variation on "the assault happened. then she joined the panthers" Mujinga (talk) 12:02, 6 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • I can't think of a good way of removing the three-month/three-year repetition either.
  • How about, "This introduced Morris to Altheia...", then you can lose the third usage in a row of panthers.
  • Is it possible to say slightly more about her trip to Morocco? (As her first trip abroad, it stands out.)
    • unfortunately not, that's all the sources say. must have been a fun experience until they ran out of money! Mujinga (talk) 12:02, 6 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not wanting to raise obtuse points of law  :) but re. "the accused were eventually found innocent"... in Eng law, I think people are found not guilty rather than innocent. I might be nitpicking, though, as the result, of course, is exactly the same!
  • I'd forgotten I wrote the Oval Four! Nice to see it linked to a far better article.
    • ah! oh what a tangled web we weave Mujinga (talk) 12:10, 6 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Upon the demise of the British Black Panthers" -- what happened, briefly?
  • You want to choose between suffixing -ise(d) or -ize(d); you currently use a mix of both. FWIW, I think that -ise is more common in BrEng. (Same with organise/organize.)
    • -ise is more common in BrEng, but if Mujinga prefers -ize, Oxford English claims to have etymological justification on its side; you are right that consistency is needed! Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 16:50, 5 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      • ugg yes. I'd like to keep the -ize but of course need to be consistent, thanks for the spot Mujinga (talk) 12:07, 6 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "because the publisher refused to use a collective name and it was dedicated to Morris" -- clarify; atm it could mean either it was credited to three women because the publisher refused a collective name and because it was dedicated to Morris, or "because the publisher refused to use a collective name; it was dedicated to Morris". If you see my point.
  • "After her death, the MWBC folded after" -- "After her death, the MWBC folded due to", per repetition.
  • Link praxis to Praxis (process)?
  • What's the meaning behind the newsletter FOWAD!, do we know? A play on Forward! and the group[s name, or an acronym in its own right?
(drive by comment from someone who has lived lang taim eena di Caribbean) Chu kod do da consider dem "Kriol-speak", aka faawad, (or moving ahead, along, etc. In other words, the meaning would be obvious to anyone familiar with Kriol in the Caribbean and it is doubtful that it has any other meaning, but of course it could). SusunW (talk) 15:21, 5 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
What a brilliant explanation SusunW, seen :) Mujinga (talk) 07:39, 6 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "began feeling ill"?
  • You elide seamlessly from the flatulence to Hodgkins. Was the former effectively a mis-diagnosis? If so, is the implication that—had it been caught earlier—the treatment might have been successful?
    • Yes that's a recent addition after a request for more info from GhostRiver above. What I'd done doesn't read back well to me today so I've rejigged it, see what you think. Here is what the source says in full: When interviewed by the ROC, Gerlin Bean (2009, pp. 5–6) spent time recounting her experience of Olive’s sudden deterioration in health: ‘She’s always messing around and laughing and carrying on, and then she starts rolling around on the floor, and said: “oh, such a pain”. And I said: “Olive stop messing around” and she said: “no, I really have this pain”’. They urgently took a taxi to King’s College Hospital: ‘we went and then they told her, you know what they told her? That she has gas [laughter], and they gave her some tablets and things and said go away’. But the pain persisted, and it was only after some time that they discovered the true cause of her illness, non-Hodgkin lymphoma.(Longley p130)
  • A shame we don't have an image of her grave; unfortunately this category of Wikipedians is very sparsely populated!
    • Trying hard not to make a joke about Croydon Mujinga (talk) 12:19, 6 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "a feminist Black Power movement in the UK and anthropologist" -- comma, semi-colon even, after UK?
    • Tried both, I think I'm happy with how it reads now Mujinga (talk) 12:19, 6 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Mostly just suggestions, Mujinga, although a few things could perhaps be clarified. But it's a thoroughly enjoyable read and a worthy tribute. SN54129 14:53, 5 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

great lots of stuff to chew on, I'll hopefully get to this later on today Mujinga (talk) 07:39, 6 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Serial Number 54129 thanks for the comments, I've followed some and queried others Mujinga (talk) 12:20, 6 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Serial Number 54129 ? Gog the Mild (talk) 11:25, 15 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yo Gog, sup? SN54129 15:00, 15 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Isn't it your turn to comment? Or have I lost count? Gog the Mild (talk) 19:17, 16 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I think I've said enough, Gog! But I support this article's promotion (tbh, I never expected not to, as I intimated above). But its a solid—BRIXTON MORTAR—piece of work.
Hat tip to SusunW for the best bit of OR I've seen in a while, too. SN54129 11:37, 17 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Source review edit

Footnote numbers refer to this version.

  • Can we get page numbers for the chapter for [46]?
    • using the wikipedia library no page number is given, so I've switched to the ebook isbn Mujinga (talk) 14:24, 14 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not sure this is a problem, but the link for [19], http://www.movinghere.org.uk//gallery/celebration/desmond.htm, goes to the same URL as the archive link, though the URL is different when entered. Is there any reason to have an archive link in this case?
    • I suppose it can be of use to preserve the original link history? What's happened here follows from the National Archives running then closing the Moving Here project. Mujinga (talk) 14:34, 14 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Again I'm not sure it's really a problem for FAC, but I don't see why we need to archive links such as [26], which only take you to an access page -- if you have to go to an archive because this page is down, the archive page won't help.
    • I see what you mean, I suppose the counter-argument is if Wiley goes down totally, there is still the record at archive.org Mujinga (talk) 14:48, 14 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • The archive link for [27] doesn't work.
  • The archive link for [33] doesn't bring up a page image.
  • For [35], neither the original link nor the archived link is working. Assuming you can fix that, what makes britsandpcs.com a reliable source?
    • Yes it's been down for a while now, a few months at least. They are still tweeting at https://twitter.com/britsandpcs. It's a bit hard to debate the source when it's not available. I could just chop it and find another reference for leila hassan (and others)? I think the rest of the sentence is backed by the other ref. Mujinga (talk) 14:10, 14 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      I think that would be best, since it's not possible to evaluate the source as it stands. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 20:02, 14 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      • Sure, removed and added some more members of the collective with a citation that was previously on the following sentence Mujinga (talk) 11:30, 18 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • The archive link for [41] goes nowhere.
  • The archive link for [55] doesn't bring up a page image.
  • I'm not convinced the link for [3] is correct. You cite pp. 9-10 for the obit, but I see nothing about Morris on pages 9 and 10. The page 9 I see has a subhead halfway down titled "BRITISH IMMIGRATION LAWS - An attack on Black people".
    • It is correct, in that it's pages 9 and 10 of issue 3, you were on issue 1, but hopefully now it links direct, avoiding the issue Mujinga (talk) 13:58, 14 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      My mistake. The link is unchanged as far as I can see, but it's fine as is. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 20:02, 14 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • [4] is fine, but it seems to be used only to cite that the school exists, and since we have a link to a Wikipedia list article that includes the school I'm not sure why we need the cite. Still, not a sourcing problem if you want to keep it.
    • Yes I'd like to, since it says "Morris went to Lavender Hill Primary School and Dick Sheppard School in Tulse Hill and became involved in the British Black Panther Movement in the late 1960s." Mujinga (talk) 13:58, 14 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • What makes manchesterarchiveplus.wordpress.com a reliable source?
    • It's a partnership of : Greater Manchester County Record Office (Association of Greater Manchester Authorities); Manchester Libraries, Information and Archives (Manchester City Council); North West Film Archive (Manchester Metropolitan University); Ahmed Iqbal Ullah Race Relations Resource Centre & Education Trust (University of Manchester); Manchester & Lancashire Family History Society; BFI Mediatheque and Manchester Registration Service (Historic Registers) Mujinga (talk) 13:58, 14 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • What makes brixtonbuzz.com a reliable source?
    • This one is debatable I suppose since it's a (long-term) local news website. The about us is not clear on editorial policy but I don't think the claims it is being used for are particularly controversial. Mujinga (talk) 14:18, 14 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • What makes rememberolivemorris.wordpress.com a reliable source? If you're using it only to source the existence of the book, I don't think it's a good idea to use a wordpress.com link for that. The ISBN/OCLC/etc. are enough to source that. If the book was too small-scale a publication to be recorded by OCLC or other indexes, then what makes the book itself a reliable source?
    • rememberolivemorris.wordpress.com is the website used by the Remembering Olive Collective, which in its first iteration collected information about Morris and then gave the materials to the local archives. People involved with it included Stella Dadzie, Tanisha C. Ford and Liz Obi, so subject area experts who wrote about Morris and also worked on the pamphlet together. We did discuss using this link at the peer review as well; I'd like to have it so people can find the pdfs via rememberolivemorris.wordpress.com, but can also just add Chidgey or Ruiz to cover its publication instead? As a sidepoint, the pamphlet appears to be listed twice on OCLC. Mujinga (talk) 14:48, 14 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • What makes brixtonblog.com a reliable source?

-- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:53, 14 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/Olive_Morris/archive1&oldid=1083468078"