Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Much-Binding-in-the-Marsh/archive1

Much-Binding-in-the-Marsh

Featured article candidates/Much-Binding-in-the-Marsh/archive1

Nominator(s): SchroCat (talk) and Tim riley talk 12:40, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Much-Binding-in-the-Marsh was a BBC radio comedy starring Kenneth Horne and Richard Murdoch; it was one of the shows that built up Horne's reputation prior to his great successes with Beyond Our Ken and Round the Horne. This has been through a re-write in 2022 and a recent brush-up and all constructive comments from good faith editors are welcome. - SchroCat (talk) and Tim riley talk - 12:40, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

Suggest adding alt text

Don't use fixed px size

File:Much-Binding-Sketch-1948-small.jpg: the unique historic images tag is generally only used where the image itself, rather than what is being depicted, is the subject of commentary.

File:Much_binding_4-4_dotted.png: the tagging here doesn't make sense - it cannot be the uploader's own work. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:35, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It seems entirely pukka to me: DBaK has transcribed a tune into the Western musical stave. I had a go earlier, but DBak as a professional musician has polished my attempt into proper musical notation. Tim riley talk 14:31, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The rest of the points all addressed. - SchroCat (talk) 14:53, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A transcription would at the least be a derivative work - it's copying a creative work that already existed, rather than creating something entirely novel. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:57, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Suggestions for tag invited. Tim riley talk 16:41, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What do we know about the circumstances of composition? Would it have been considered a work for hire? Nikkimaria (talk) 03:49, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It wouldn’t have been considered as such by the writers or the BBC, as WFH is an American concept, not a British one. - SchroCat (talk) 05:10, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Nikkimaria, I'm a bit stumped on what to do about this one: any suggestions? - SchroCat (talk) 06:44, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If nothing else, you'd be able to make a fair-use claim since it's such a short excerpt. But I don't have enough information to say much of use beyond that. Is anything more known about the history beyond what's in the article? It's mentioned Short wrote it down in score - was this published at some point? Do we know to what extent Torch "polished" Horne's original idea? Nikkimaria (talk) 00:38, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

SchroCat, the Fair Use route seems to me the way to go. We don't know how much Torch altered Horne's original hummed tune (probably at most the note values, rather than the actual notes, I imagine, but I don't know) and I've never seen it in print (or I wouldn't have got it wrong when I had first go at transcribing it), and it isn't listed as published in WorldCat. Tim riley talk 09:15, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It was published at some point and still comes up for sale on the second hand market (see this by way of example, but I’ve never seen it either. It lists Torch on the front, so we know he was somehow involved, but no idea on the extent - it doesn’t come up on any of the sources I’ve read. As DBaK was the one who recreated it from ear, he will have to be the one to upload the local copy. - SchroCat (talk) 09:54, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If you're going that route, you could simply use a score and treat it like a quotation. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:10, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for that, Nikkimaria. Lilypad is miles beyond my competence and I've sought help with it here. Tim riley talk 14:05, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And help was rapidly given, by Cremastra, to whom grateful thanks. Tim riley talk 15:17, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Noting that Michael Bednarek has adjusted the Lilypad score; I have no idea which version is considered "better" in this context. Cremastra (talk) 15:31, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Nor I, but I'm indebted to Cremastra and Michael Bednarek who are both miles and miles ahead of me with this program. Bless you both! Tim riley talk 16:15, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Wehwalt

Support I had heard of the show because it's mentioned in one of Nevil Shute's books. Happy to review.

Is there a reason not to spell out ITMA in the lede?
"Princess Elizabeth (later Queen Elizabeth II) who was on her first public appearance since the birth of her first son—Prince Charles" I understand the need to say that she later received a promotion, but if one, why not the other?
Images: I'm dubious that a candy bar is really relevant to this, especially since I suspect the bar is of considerably later vintage.

It's really only tangentially relevant, but it's the only image in the body of the article, apart from the music. I wouldn't be too sorry if we had to remove it, but it's nicer to break up the text a little if possible. - SchroCat (talk) 14:52, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"The 1947 billing reads "Richard Murdoch in 'Much-Binding-in-the-Marsh', with Kenneth Horne, Sam Costa and Marilyn Williams"; by 1954 the billing was "Richard Murdoch, Kenneth Horne and Sam Costa in 'Much-Binding'".[25]" I guess the question is why no italicisation?

That's it. Most interesting.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:34, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Wehwalt; all done, bar the image - although I'm open to being pushed on that one too. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 14:52, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't feel that strongly on the image having been in similar situations. Just thought I'd point it out. Wehwalt (talk) 15:13, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Alavense

oh, my word ! - Is that space present in the original?
"Flight Officer Flannel"—played by Binnie Hale, Dorothy Carless or Doris Hare—according to availability, would sing, as would Costa - I'm a bit lost here. Isn't a comma missing before "according"?
the characters had been demobilised and, and shook hands
was on its way to overtaking ITMA as the most popular British radio comedy - How's popularity measured in this regard? Number of listeners or anything like that?
Number of listeners - it's the only way (I think) that popularity of a radio show could be assessed. - SchroCat (talk) 09:17, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
greeted by Murdoch with, "Good morning - Is that comma needed?
You have The cast comprised Murdoch, Horne, Costa, Denham and Bryan but also Denham's other roles included Luigi the Italian, Winston the dog, Gregory the sparrow, Group Captain Funnybone, Lieutenant-General Sir Harold Tansley-Parkinson, and the receptionist at Much-Binding. I think there ought to be consistency as to the use of the Oxford comma. There are other instances of this.
There's nothing about why the show returned to the BBC.
It's not discussed in sources. They had a one-year contract with Radio Lux, which they fulfilled, but there's nothing more about it. - SchroCat (talk) 09:17, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Costa played Prudence Gush, the radio critic and Denham added more roles to his repertoire - A comma is missing after "critic".
He managed to travel to Australia - I think "Horne" better than "He", because otherwise it gets a bit confusing.
− "Oh, jolly D!" − - I would go for the same dashes for consistency.
His mother - Uppercase after a semicolon.
Fifi de la Bon-Bon, known as Mademoiselle Fifi was - A comma is missing.
played by the singer Dorothy Carless. was one

That's what I saw. Kind regards, Alavense (talk) 06:05, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Cheers, Alavense: all sorted, except where commented above, where the sources just don't cover the ground enough. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 09:17, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the edits and the responses. I'm happy with that and I think the article (a nice read) meets the criteria, so I'll support. Kind regards, Alavense (talk) 09:24, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]