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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Idlewild and Soak Zone

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Raul654 10:55, 9 March 2009 [1].

Idlewild and Soak Zone edit

Nominator(s): Grsz11 (talk)

I began working on this article back in October. It passed WP:GA in November. Then I began working on it again in January, and had both an informal and a formal peer review. The park has an interesting history that made it easy to contribute to. I feel that it meets all the featured article criteria. Grsz11 22:06, 13 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments -

  • Current ref 34 (Ligonier Highland..) is lacking a publisher.
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:05, 14 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed. Grsz11 22:51, 14 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments - I have many fond memories of Idlewild from when I was a kid, so it's interesting to see it here – I learned quite a bit about the history of the park from the article. A couple comments about the article:

  • In the external links section, the name of the Spanish company that owns Idlewild seems to be misspelled.
  • In the "Ligonier Valley Railroad" section: "The park offered a reward of $3 each for the return of the seven monkeys, and later believed that they had been set loose." You may want to be a bit more specific with the latter part of the sentence. Was it the owner of the park who thought they had been set loose?

Good job with the article, and good luck with the FAC. - Algorerhythms (talk) 22:58, 14 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, done and done. Grsz11 23:01, 14 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Support issues have been fixed - Algorerhythms (talk) 23:58, 14 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments - Nice to see something different here, in the form of an amusement park. Haven't been to one in 16+ years myself, though. Here are my initial thoughts.

  • The Web address in the infobox has a double slash at the end. Might want to check that.
  • "It has won several awards, including many from Amusement Today as the second-best children's park in the world." Terms like "several" and "many" are a bit vague. I understand the former since it's hard to know exactly how many awards the place has won, but I think the number of Amusement Today awards can be made more precise.
  • History: Comma after "a retired common pleas judge from Allegheny County".
  • The naming convention for Wiki articles on people with initials is to have a space after the first period. Should that apply for the Macdonalds here?
  • Comma after "a bagpipe director at the Carnegie Institute of Technology".
  • "The flood lifted and twisted the park's Loyalhamma Limited Railroad, which required extensive repairs.[15]." Double period.
  • Kennywood era: Pittsburgh doesn't need another link here; there have already been links in the lead and earlier in the body.

That covers most of the body, and what I'm reading looks quite good to me. Take a look at these for now, and I'll be back soon to review the rest. Giants2008 (17-14) 20:24, 15 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Giants, I've made these fixes. Grsz11 22:58, 15 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "With the popularity of waterparks growing" is a noun plus -ing sentence structure. For more on this, including tips on fixing it, see here.
Done. Grsz11 04:22, 18 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Commas before and after "in Images of America: Idlewild"?
Done. Grsz11 04:22, 18 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Recognition: Change the first word to "Opened" for past tense. Remove hyphen in "fifth-consecutive", and add one for "fourth best". Also would be interesting to see who named it the most beautiful theme park in the U.S.
First half done. The source just says it was named, and I can't verify who did. Grsz11
  • Attractions: "around the park's Skooters added in 1931." Comma after Skoote s?
Done. Grsz11 04:22, 18 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hootin' Holler: In the second sentence, change the hyphen to an en dash, which is the first of the two dashes on the edit screen (the smaller one).
Done. Grsz11 04:22, 18 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Slightly confusing: "a spinning ride modeled like a tornado added". Is the last word the problem, perhaps?
It used to say the year, but it was removed as OR; just some leftovers. Grsz11 04:22, 18 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Story Book Forest: Comma after "who portrayed the clown 'Happy Dayze' in the park during the 1950s". I keep mentioning the punctuation only because it's really important for an FA to get this right. Correct punctuation throughout is crucial for compelling prose.
Done. Grsz11 04:22, 18 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
There were a few more problems near the end, but that's not uncommon in articles that I review. Before I leave, I want to ask if attendance figures can be found for the park. That would be an objective way to measure its popularity. What I'm thinking of is similar to what is in the Ligonier Games section, and could possibly mention attendance in the past as well. Just something to think about. Anyway, that's all from me. Giants2008 (17-14) 04:00, 18 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Support - Still wish that there was something about how popular the park is, such as attendance figures, but what's here looks FA-quality to me. Note that I'm not the most knowledgeable on what is cconsidered comprehensive coverage of an amusement park; I'm only judging based on what's here, which looks good to me. Giants2008 (17-14) 22:15, 20 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I wish I could find that information too, but I've been unable to. Grsz11 01:00, 21 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Image review as follows: For discussion —

  • File:Idlewild Carousel sign.jpg — I am not too sure, but I think this photo should be okay. It should be a structure (not a work of art), and hence fall under the freedom of panorama allowed by the US. Unless someone can point out otherwise, this image should be fine.

Serious concerns —

  • File:IdlewildPark.jpg as an identification logo, its rationales seem strange. One would expect it to state that it readily identifies the subject and its functions (amusement by ferris wheel, water park by splash), hence serving to identify the subject. Instead it states "Use of the logo visually identifies the station's programming and ownership in a manner that mere prose cannot", a vague (sort of "well, you know") and weird purpose; how does one tell the ownership from the logo (no sign of Mellon or Kennywood, and is it a media company ("programming")?
  • File:Idlewild Depot.jpg and File:Idlewild Carousel.jpg are scans from the book, Idlewild: Images of America (reversed in the Commons image pages) by Jeffrey S. Croushore (2004), pp. 11 and 22 respectively. The book does not state that these pictures were taken in 1920 nor published in 1920. PD-1923 is dependant on first publication, not creation. As stated in the Acknowledgments, unless credited, the photos come from the Idlewind Archives or R. Z. MacDonald, and might not have been published until now, thus they could still be public domain (120 years from creation or 70 years since photographer's death in this case). They should not be used if their copyright status cannot be ascertained. They also cannot be declared "fair use", as the structures are still standing and free photos can be taken at this time (thus failing WP:NFCC#1).

Needs attention, serious ones on the last two images. Jappalang (talk) 02:39, 25 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have attempted a claim at fair use for File:Idlewild depot.jpg. Grsz11 17:52, 26 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
That is good, but you could have pointed out that the scenary has greatly changed for the depot (I have done that). Anyway, there is a CC-BY-SA photo of the carousel at http://flickr.com/photos/milst1/2756835238/in/set-72157606688697331/. There are a bunch of photos taken at the park released as either CC-BY-2.0 or CC-BY-SA (http://www.flickr.com/search/?l=commderiv&q=idlewild&m=text, ignore those concert shots). A few of them could perhaps enhance this article. No more concerns. Jappalang (talk) 11:50, 27 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Administrator PhilKnight has challenged the fair use of the image at Wikipedia:Files for deletion/2009 February 28#Idlewild_depot.jpg. Jappalang (talk) 17:23, 28 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support, but I found things to do, such as:

  • "Scottish"—isn't there a more focused link you could pipe? Part of the Scotland article, or another article?
  • Remove "originally", unless it was established more than once.
  • Avoid repetition? "ty. Judge Thomas Mellon, a retired common pleas judge from ..." Um: "Retired common pleas judge Thom... from ...".
  • Hands up who doesn't know what "monkey" means in English. "Word War II" is a dubious link; I'd be removing it in an audit. There are higher-value links in the vicinity, so let's minimise dilution?
  • "Doodlebug"—love it!
  • "Originally operated separate of the park"—something wrong ... "separately from"? "integrated into'"'?
  • "highest-regarded" --> "most highly regard".
  • Can you make the link to Scottish culture more obvious to the readers (it's piped to "culture"). Consider instead an explicit link down in the "See also" section; this is an increasingly popular technique to avoid hidden "Easter-egg" links.
  • "The fourth and fifth-generation"—See "hanging hyphens" at MoS. Tony (talk) 09:17, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Tony, I have addressed most of those issues. Grsz11 00:13, 9 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, thanks for your hard work. --Laser brain (talk) 16:39, 9 March 2009 (UTC) Comments[reply]
    • "The park is home to the Ligonier Highland Games, a Scottish athletic and cultural festival that has drawn over 10,000 spectators." I found this ambiguous. I'm sure you mean annually, but it reads total.
    • We seem to gloss over how exactly the lease developed after the initial three years with Darlington. The next time anything is said about it, it's 1931 when it's acquired. Was it under lease with Darlington that whole time?
    • I don't understand the Parques Reunidos section. You begin by writing that Idlewild was sold to Parques Reunidos, then go on to detail how Kennywood has rejected all purchase offers. If they finally accepted the Parques Reunidos, why? And shouldn't that go at the end so it's chronological?
    • Also, I don't understand what you are saying about Kennywood Entertainment being a family-owned park itself. There is not a park called "Kennywood Entertainment". This needs rewriting for clarity.
--Laser brain (talk) 03:46, 9 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I've addressed all but #2. I'm not sure that answer to your question. We know that atleast in the early 1900s when expansion was "permitted" that the land was still being leased, but I have no knowledge of when specifically a transaction occured. I'll try and look for something. Grsz11 04:33, 9 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
If the information is not known, we've covered it the best we can. Thanks! --Laser brain (talk) 16:39, 9 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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