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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Hrabri-class submarine/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 30 August 2022 [1].

Hrabri-class submarine

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Nominator(s): Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:10, 28 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The Yugoslav acquisition of this class of two British-made submarines in the late 1920s marked the beginning of the Yugoslav submarine service, something that has been celebrated as recently as 2013 in the Yugoslav successor state of Montenegro. The subs were built using parts assembled for British L-class subs that were cancelled with the end of World War I. They had an uncommon offensive set-up, with six bow-mounted torpedo tubes and two deck guns. When they were acquired, they sported the largest guns in the Yugoslav Royal Navy. One was captured by the Italians during the April 1941 Axis invasion and was quickly scrapped. The other escaped to safety with the British in Egypt, and was used for training purposes until returned to the navy-in-exile towards the end of the war. Transferred to the new navy of post-war socialist Yugoslavia, it served a static classroom until it was disposed of in the mid-50s. This article passed Milhist A-Class years ago, and has recently been updated with a comprehensive new source. The two individual sub articles are FAs, so the promotion of this article will mean all articles in the featured topic will be also be featured. Have at it. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:10, 28 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

HF

Will review over the next couple days. Hog Farm Talk 15:01, 28 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Specify in the infobox that the length figure is overall (o/a)
  • "but regulations restricted them to a maximum depth of 55 m (180 ft)" - is this internal regulations or one of those post-WWI international navy regulations
  • "En route one of the boats suffered from engine trouble" - Hvar or one of the submarines?

I think that's all from me. Hog Farm Talk 23:35, 30 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks HF! All done I reckon. Here are my edits. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:50, 6 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support, sorry I forgot about this one. Hog Farm Talk 20:00, 20 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Gog the Mild

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Recusing to review.

  • "Their maximum diving depth was restricted to 55 metres (180 ft) by regulations." Which/whose regulations? (Also in the main body.)
I think this fixed now. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:44, 16 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Hrabri was captured by the Italians at the surrender". Could we have a little elaboration on what "the surrender" was?
expanded to "at time of the Yugoslav surrender in mid-April". Thoughts? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:44, 16 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "a revolt by Yugoslav generals based in Egypt." Any link? Ok, I see it red linked in the body.
Definitely article-worthy, but there isn't one yet. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:44, 16 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "they were deployed them around the world". ?
Whoops. Fixed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:44, 16 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Link "aft" at first mention.
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:44, 16 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • No link for Austro-Hungarian Navy?
Added. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:44, 16 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "10 kn (19 km/h; 12 mph)" and "10.5 kn (19.4 km/h; 12.1 mph)." Does 0.5 kn really equal 0.1 mph?
No. Good grief, default rounding... single figure rounding takes it to 0.6 mph, which is far closer. Fixed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:44, 16 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "during her sea trials ... During her trials ... during trials ... During the trials".
Good point, reworded this bit, hopefully smoother now? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:44, 16 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The crews of all four vessels were commended for their good behaviour on the cruise." Optional: "on" → 'during'.
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:44, 16 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "was captured there by the Italians after the Yugoslav surrender. In the interim, the commanding officer of Sitnica had been willing to take command of Hrabri and captain the boat to Greece". The break in the chronological flow jars a little.
Fair enough. Re-ordered. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:44, 16 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the pending surrender". As with the lead, what is/was "the surrender "?
Added a bit. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:44, 16 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "At 02:45 on 26 April, the group of vessels was met by a British warship and escorted towards Alexandria. At 12:20 on 27 April Nebojša's ..." Personally I don't like (or even understand) commas after dates, but you should be consistent.
OK. Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:44, 16 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The apparently random sprinkling of commas around dates in some articles is well beyond my comprehension or understanding; but seeing "In January 1943 comma Nebojša was" starting a paragraph while the next one commences with "In August 1945 no comma Nebojša was" does nothing to convince me that whatever convention is being followed is even internally consistent. The good news is, that as I don't understand it, or am even convinced that it is understandable, I am not going to let it get in the way of my support. Gog the Mild (talk) 11:13, 16 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Gog the Mild (talk) 16:42, 5 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Funk

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Fixed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:00, 24 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • No more images of these ships, or other relevant images to spice up the article a bit? Relevant places, people, or events?
Not of the boats themselves, unfortunately, although I have a 2021 book with a dozen or so, in each case it was the first publication I'm aware of. I've added a pic of a gyrocompass, the original AA gun, the tower Nebojša was (partly) named after, and a map of Nebojša's escape. Thanks for the suggestion. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:00, 24 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Looks nice. FunkMonk (talk) 01:43, 30 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Done so far, FunkMonk. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:00, 24 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Shouldn't the Background section mention how many ships were part of this class and what their names were?
Good point, done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 19:53, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "One source indicates that on one 15-day Mediterranean cruise, Nebojša needed" Per above, by this point you haven't presented or linked the individual ships, and the link for this one only comes all the way down in the Service history section.
Fixed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 19:53, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Like the names themselves, I would expect to see the meaning of the names mentioned already under background.
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 19:53, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Nebojša was named after the eponymous medieval tower near Belgrade" Link the tower in the caption.
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 19:53, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Nebojša was also named after the eponymous medieval tower near the Yugoslav capital Belgrade which had played a prominent part in battles between Serb and Ottoman Empire forces during the wars of Serbian independence and again during the Austro-Hungarian Empire campaigns against the Kingdom of Serbia in World War I.[3]" All seems like background rather than service history to me.
Moved up. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 19:53, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Link Gibraltar.
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 19:53, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "After immediate repairs her forward gun was replaced by a wooden replica" Funny, why, to act as a decoy?
A couple of reasons I can think of (although the source doesn't specify), silhouette recognition for friendly ships to avoid being attacked and/or to bluff an enemy merchant ship when surfaced. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 19:53, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and two days later the crew were advised by their commanding officer" Do we know his name?
Added. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 19:53, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Could the meaning of "KM" be explained in the article body too?
Sure, done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 19:53, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "used as a moored classroom or hulk." I doubt that's the link you want...
LOL, no. Fixed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 19:53, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

All done I reckon, FunkMonk. Thanks for your review. Let me know what you think? Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 19:53, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support by Pendright

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Lead:

  • Prior to World War II both submarines participated in cruises to Mediterranean ports, and in 1929 the class was joined by the two smaller French-built Osvetnik-class submarines to complete the Yugoslav submarine flotilla.
Add a comma after World War II.
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 20:14, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • In 1933–1934 both boats were refitted, their superstructure was extensively modified and the 2-pounder gun on each submarine was replaced with a single 13.2 mm (0.52 in) Hotchkiss M1929 anti-aircraft machine gun.
Why is it not superstructures were?
superstructure (the superstructure of a ship is the part of it that is above its main deck) is a countable noun, but is usually rendered as singular when referring to a single ship. "Superstructures" is usually only used to refer to multiple ships. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 20:14, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
<>Thanks for your explanation, however, I should think that "the superstructure of each was" would be clearer and unambigious. (BTW, I spent several years as a member of the US Navy and served aboard two different destroyers so I am familiar with the term superstructure.) Pendright (talk) 21:08, 11 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Immediately prior to the April 1941 German-led Axis invasion of Yugoslavia the two boats conducted patrols in the Adriatic alongside the Osvetnik-class boats.
  • Add a comma after Yugoslavia, the two boats...
  • Adriatic [Sea]
Both done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 20:14, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hrabri was captured by the Italians at time of the Yugoslav surrender in mid-April, and after inspection they decided not to commission her and she was subsequently scrapped.
  • at [the] time of the Yugoslav surrender in
  • after [an] inspection
Both done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 20:14, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • She was overhauled and initially served with British submarine forces in the Mediterranean as an anti-submarine warfare training boat.
Mediterranean [Sea]
OK. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 20:14, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • At the end of 1941 she was prohibited from diving and was employed as a battery charging station for other submarines.
  • Add a comma after 1941
Not sure why this is necessary, I wouldn't pause there when reading it and there aren't clauses that need separating. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 20:14, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
<>At the end of 1941 is a introductry phrase and is followed by a comma. It's no differemt from similar intriductiry phrases punctuated in such sections as the Interwar and WWII? It's your call.Pendright (talk) 21:29, 11 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • she was prohibited -> by whom?
By the Royal Navy. Added. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 20:14, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • In May 1942 her crew were removed and placed in a British military camp in the aftermath of a revolt by Yugoslav generals based in Egypt.
  • Add a comma after 1942
Not sure why this is necessary, I wouldn't pause there when reading it and there aren't clauses that need separating. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 20:14, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
<>Introcuctory phrase - same as above Pendright (talk) 21:29, 11 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • The word "in" is used four times in this sentence?
Trimmed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 20:14, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Another extensive overhaul was conducted, after which Nebojša was briefly utilised for training in Beirut until she was formally handed back to the KM-in-exile in mid-1943, after which she underwent a further extensive refit.

  • Suggest reworking this sentence:
  • Another extensive overhaul was conduclted -> on or for whom?
  • extensive is used twice?
  • after which is used twice?
  • handed back - returned?
I think I've improved this now. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 20:14, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Background:

  • The naval policy of the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes (the Kingdom of Yugoslavia from 1929) lacked direction until the mid-1920s,[1] although it was generally accepted that the Adriatic coastline was effectively a sea frontier that the naval arm was responsible for securing with the limited resources made available to it.[2]
generally accepted -> by whom?
the armed forces, added. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 21:55, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the same year, a modest ten-year construction program was [finally] initiated to build up [the] a force of submarines, coastal torpedo boats, torpedo bombers and conventional bomber aircraft for coastal defence.
See above suggestions
Adopted the first, but for the second, I don't think the definite article is what is needed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 21:55, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Their design was based on that of the L class, and they were built using parts originally assembled for the Group III boats HMS L-67 and HMS L-68, which were not completed due to the end of World War I.[5]
Add a comma after boats
Why? "Group III boats" is a descriptor of the two named subs. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 21:55, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
<>It's called an appositive (an American version): A noun or phrase that renames or describes the noun that it is next to is set off by commas.
<>Use the appositive (an Australian version), which is a grammatical construction in which two elements, normally noun phrases, are placed side by side, with one element serving to define or modify the other. If this is not the case, then the suggestion is scratched. Pendright (talk) 23:16, 11 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • The British Royal Navy cancelled the order for the two submarines in March 1919, and [but[ the hulls [erected] were launched on 16 June and 2 July[,] respectively[,[ to free up the slipways on which they were being built.
See above suggestions
Why "but"? They had been cancelled. Have slightly adjusted this sentence though. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 21:55, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
<> To show contrast - Pendright (talk) 23:21, 11 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • In November the hulls were sold by the Royal Navy to the shipyard, and once the contract with the Yugoslavs was signed they were brought back onto the slipways and completed to a modified design.
completed [in]to a modified design.
No, I don't think that is best. "to a modified design" is completely fine and a commonly-used phrase. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 21:55, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
<>Okay - Pendright (talk) 23:31, 11 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • They were an improved version of the British E class, and achieved a better relationship between displacement, propulsion, speed and armament than their predecessors, including a powerful armament of both torpedoes and guns.
Drop the comma after E Class or add a subject to the 2nd clause
Modified the sentence. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 21:55, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • The class was designed for operations in the North Sea in World War I, but due to their considerable range they were deployed around the world during the interwar period by the Royal Navy, including in the Mediterranean,[5] and three were still in service at the outbreak of World War II.[3]
Drop the comma after Mediterranean
I was taught that you should use a comma before "including" if the sentence would be complete without the part that follows". Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 21:55, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
<>You were taught well - Pendright (talk) 23:31, 11 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Peacemaker67: Pause at the end of Background - Pendright (talk) 03:29, 28 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

<>Continue: Pendright (talk) 03:21, 2 August 2022 (UTC) General:[reply]

  • The keel was straight until it inclined upwards as part of the pointed stern, and detachable ballast keel was also fitted.
  • Drop the comma after stern
  • Add "a" betwen and & detachabe
they are two separate independent clauses, one about the keel and the other about the detachable ballast keel, so I think the comma is justified. The "a" has been added. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:39, 21 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • There were two shafts each driving a three-bladed propeller, and the boat direction was controlled using a semi-balanced rudder.
How about -> They had two...
Went with "submarines". Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:39, 21 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • The final difference was that one [of] the three periscopes was modified to enable observation of the skies to warn of impending air attack[s].[8]
See above suggestions
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:39, 21 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note: Many sentences in this section begin with "the" - might consider subhstituting some of them.
Tweaked one. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:39, 21 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Propulsion:

  • The screws were subject to great stress during navigation in rough weather, and [they] often cracked.
See the above suggestion
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:39, 21 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • One source indicates that on one 15-day Mediterranean cruise, Nebojša needed 420 kg (930 lb) of replacement screws.
One source -> why not name the source?
Sure, done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:39, 21 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • There was also a small 20 bhp (15 kW) electric motor for silent underwater running.
They also had a...
went with something similar. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:39, 21 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • The battery storage consisted of three hundred and thirty-six 3820 LS Exide cells, [and it had] with a combined weight of 138 t (136 long tons; 152 short tons).[12]
See the above suggest
went with something similar. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:39, 21 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Service history:

  • Nebojša was also named after the eponymous medieval tower[,] near the Yugoslav capital [of] Belgrade[,] which had played a prominent part in battles between Serb and Ottoman Empire forces during the wars of Serbian independence and again during the Austro-Hungarian Empire campaigns against the Kingdom of Serbia in World War I.[3]
See above suggestions
this sentence is further up now. Addressed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:59, 21 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Interwar period:

  • The two boats left the Tyne on 11 March 1928 in company with Hvar.[18]
in "the" company "of" Hvar (with means acompanied by)
"in company with" is perfectly fine grammatically (from an Australian perspective at least). Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:59, 21 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Torpedo exercises [for the boats] followed, [and] then a cruise along the Adriatic coast.
See the above suggestions
went with something similar. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:59, 21 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • There were no injuries [to its crew].[21]
See above suggestions
clarified. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:59, 21 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

World War II:

  • A few days before the invasion commenced, Nebojša and Osvetnik had conducted night patrols, mainly on the surface, on rotation with Hrabri and Smeli.
"in" rotation?
AFAIK, "on rotation" is fine grammatically. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:59, 21 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Nebojša was forced to conduct an emergency dive to avoid being hit, and [she] almost rammed the bottom.
See above suggestion
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:00, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • The commanding officer of Sitnica was willing to take command of Hrabri and captain the boat to Greece, but the crew were opposed to this action, and Hrabri was captured at the Bay of Kotor by the Italians after the Yugoslav surrender came into effect on 18 April.
  • Why the opposition by the crew?
Probably reluctance to leave their homeland and continue fighting for a country that they had mixed feelings about. There were many non-Serbs in the navy who felt like second-class citizens. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:00, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • 18 April 194?
1941, per the year of the invasion given in the first sentence of the section. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:00, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • On 9 April Nebojša and Smeli were sent to the southern Adriatic to attack Italian maritime traffic between Bari in Italy and the Italian protectorate of Albania.
Add a comma after April
OK. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:00, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • She returned to the Bay of Kotor on 10 or 11 April, where the fleet had begun to break up , with [and] the crew[s] of some ships deserting.
See the above suggestions
Went with something similar. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:00, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • On 14 April the pending Yugoslav unconditional surrender was announced[,] and two days later the crew were advised by their commanding officer that they would be surrendering the following day.
See above suggestion
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:00, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • While he was absent ashore at a conference, his second-in-command, Đorđe Đorđević, contacted a submarine officer he knew who was attached to the defence headquarters of the Bay of Kotor, Đorđe Mitrović, and offered him the command of the submarine if he would lead the crew that wished to escape to Greece.
  • Is the word "absent" nnecessary?
Probably not, deleted. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:00, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • One or two days later she resumed her voyage to Egypt accompanied by the British steamship Destro[,[ and the Greek submarine Papanikolis and escorted by the Orjen-class torpedo boats Durmitor and Kajmakčalan.
See above suggestion
went with a different split to separate the accompanying ships from the escorts. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:00, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Having had several breakdowns since [arrivinbg] her arrival in Egypt and due to her age, in November Nebojša was prohibited from diving [in November].
See above suggestions
re-worded. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:00, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Her diesel engines were overhauled and after [having] she had undergone further repairs[,] she was employed as a charging station for other submarines.
  • See above suggestion
went with a different positioning of the comma. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:00, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • On her first sea trial after her transfer both her air compressors failed and the port electric motor burned out.
The word "her" is used three times in this short sentence?
Tweaked. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:00, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Finished - @Peacemaker67:

Thanks so much for your review, Pendright. I think I got them all, let me know what you think? Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:00, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
All good - supporting! Regards- Pendright (talk) 23:35, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Source review

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Pass. No concerns. I think the newspaper sources would be unreliable for some material, but for what they're used for here they're fine. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 18:41, 29 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Mike! Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:59, 30 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

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Pass Hawkeye7 (discuss) 06:56, 31 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Hawkeye! Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:15, 1 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Dudley

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  • "captured by the Italians at time of the Yugoslav surrender". "captured by the Italians at the time of the Yugoslav surrender"?
Fixed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:06, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "KM-in-exile". This term needs explaining/linking in the lead and body.
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 22:55, 27 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "battles between Serb and Ottoman Empire forces during the wars of Serbian independence". Maybe give dates and link wars of Serbian independence.
Done, and linked overarching article. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 22:55, 27 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The final difference was that one the three periscopes". "The final difference was that one of the three periscopes". I see that another editor suggested this.
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 22:55, 27 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The commanding officer of Sitnica was willing to take command of Hrabri and captain the boat to Greece, but the crew were opposed to this action". What happened to the captain of the Hrabri? Why did the crew oppose the action? Did they want to surrender?
No mention of the captain in the source, but essentially there was a fair amount of defeatism across Yugoslavia, some of the crew were no doubt Croats (and a longed-for Croat state had been announced with German support) or Slovenes (as they were the other main maritime nation within Yugoslavia), and many would not have wanted to leave their home and families. I don't have a specific source for all of that with respect to Hrabri's crew, but it certainly was true of the rest of the armed forces. Do you think I need to make a more general comment? I just don't want to slip into OR with respect of this sub's crew by moving from the general to the specific. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 22:55, 27 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
No worries Dudley. I have added a couple of sentences to the last para of the Interwar period section. Let me know if that does the job? Thanks, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:57, 28 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hi PM, are you able to get on to these (and Ed's below)? Tks/cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 09:20, 19 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yep, will finish off tomorrow. Thanks, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 11:32, 19 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I think I've addressed all of your points, Dudley Miles. Just one I have a query about. Thanks for your review! Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 22:55, 27 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from The ed17

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Mostly minor comments and questions for ya, Peacemaker67.

  • This isn't a dealbreaker, but: the lead isn't the easiest thing to read, in part because it's rather stuffed with information. I've made a couple edits to simplify things, and you might consider going through it with a fine-tooth comb to remove information that isn't critical to a reader's overall understanding of the submarines.
It's a long story, but I trimmed it a bit. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:27, 27 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "were manufactured in six parts of two cylinders each which were screwed together." – what does this mean? The cylinders had six parts each, linked into a single cylinder by those screws?
No, the engines were made up of six parts, each of which held two cylinders. The parts were held together by screws. Should I re-word it? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:27, 27 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Between 1933 and 1934 ..." – was this a refit? Modernization? I think you need some context/an adjective around how significant this work was (or wasn't!).
It was a significant rebuild of the superstructure. Added. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:27, 27 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "with tactical numbers 1 and 2" – were these tactical numbers ever used in service or elsewhere? If not, I'd consider dropping them as pretty trivial information
"Yes, they were painted on the hulls, and help to tell which one is in a given photo. Sadly, all the photos I know of that show them are not free. Have added where they were located. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:39, 27 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Are there any dates available for the sea trials mishaps? What happened to Nebojša that it began sinking bow-first?
"No dates, just autumn 1927 for Nebojša' sinking incident, so I added the month range of mid-Sep to mid-Dec. No info about why. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:39, 27 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "When trial diving on another occasion, Hrabri listed sharply to starboard and the bulwark around the bridge was damaged by waves." – was this also during the sea trials? The wording here suggests that it was not.
Yes, during trials, added. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:39, 27 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "A few days before the invasion commenced, Nebojša and Osvetnik had conducted night patrols, mainly on the surface, on rotation with Hrabri and Smeli." – read literally in my mind, this wording would suggest there were patrols on one night a few days before the invasion. But I think this is meant to mean that they were going on patrols on multiple alternating nights? Perhaps the sentence should read something like this: "Starting X days before the invasion, the Yugoslav Navy deployed two submarines each night to patrol the coastline, primarily on the surface. They deployed Nebojša and Osvetnik together, and rotated them on each succeeding night with Hrabri and Smeli."
Great idea, adopted. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:53, 27 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The transfer of the former German Type VII U-boat U-570 – HMS Graph – was considered, ..." – who considered this? The Royal Navy, government, otherwise?
Added detail. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:53, 27 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "She remained unable to dive and was used as a moored classroom or hulk." – emphasis mine. Did the "extensive overhaul and repairs" in Port Said still not allow the submarine to dive in the last couple years of the war? It seems unlikely that it would have been sent to Malta without that capability. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 20:27, 12 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Believe it or not, the Yugoslavs were keen to have any vessel, even one that couldn't perform a critical function. The source is very clear that she was not able to dive even after the work at Port Said. I mean, she was towed to Malta... Thanks for your review, Ed, see what you think of my responses. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:53, 27 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
That last point is fascinating, considering that the core function of a submarine is to dive beneath the water! Fair enough. On the engines, I'd like to see that reworded as it's still not clear to me. Did each part have two cylinders?
That's a minor quibble, though, and so I'm happy to now support this article's promotion to FA. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 06:39, 28 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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