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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Giants: Citizen Kabuto

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted 00:03, 25 March 2008.

Giants: Citizen Kabuto edit

According to articlestats, the nominator (now retired) has never edited this article and User:Jappalang, the principle editor, is responding to the FAC:

Jappalang 34
Bryan H Bell 12
Epbr123 9
Thunderbrand 5
David Fuchs 4
The Merciful 4
CyberSkull 4

SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:26, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm nominating this article for featured article because I think it meets the criteria. The Development and Reception sections are particularly comprehensive and well sourced. FightingStreet (talk) 22:08, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
FightingStreet is a retired editor. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:48, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments
    • http://web.archive.org/web/20000208001815/www.ga-source.com/interviews/Giants.shtml gives a "Path Index Error" for me. Doesn't show up on the little tool for checking links though. Same for http://web.archive.org/web/20010415140747/http://www.game-interviews.com/interviews/giants.htm
      Fixed. Jappalang (talk) 02:45, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Generally I wouldn't consider about.com a very reliable source, but the one cite looks to be hosted on about.com ... http://pcworld.about.com/news/Jun052001id54523.htm�?
      Apologies about that, I just found the article on PC World's site and replaced the cite with it. Jappalang (talk) 02:45, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • There is a lot of information sourced to reviews that would be conisdered gameplay. This isn't a complaint, understand, just that wouldnt' it make more sense to source to the game manual? then you wouldn't run the risk of folks complaining it's gone dead on you, or that it's not reliable. It's gameplay, so in my mind, the sourcing requirements aren't as high as BLP, of course.
      The gameplay section incorporates the design and effects of the controls and well... gameplay. These are the views of established game reviewers which require sourcing. There are statements which the manual (which in most parts is written "in-universe" and in a tongue-in-cheek manner) fails to describe (akin to hidden strategies). Secondary sources are used to avoid concerns on over-use of primary sources. Jappalang (talk) 02:45, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Heh. Guess it shows that I never played the game or I'd have known the manual was in-universe. Thanks for the explanation. Ealdgyth | Talk 02:47, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Sources look pretty good besides that one site hosted on about.com, and the two lost links. Ealdgyth | Talk 02:11, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Note I noticed that the nominator didn't seem to have edited the article. Articlestats is not working at the moment (due to a wiki fluke I believe), but I notified User:Jappalang, who appears to be one of the article's most active editors, that there is precedent to withdraw the nomination if he felt the article wasn't ready. He has responded that he understands this and wishes to proceed with the nom. Maralia (talk) 03:18, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support - well, I also never edited but nominated for the GA (which passed), since it's an impressive article, very detailed and referenced. igordebraga ≠ 05:25, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved issues ЭLСОВВОLД talk 21:57, 17 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose: Numerous criterion three issues:
    • Image:Giants Cast.jpg – Per WP:NFCC#3A, “As few non-free content uses as possible are included in each article and in Wikipedia as a whole”. The three characters in this image are present, in superior or reasonably equivalent detail, in other images utilized in the article (also a NFCC#8 failure, as contribution to our understanding, therefore, is not significantly above what has already been provided by the other images). Now moot, but image is also not low resolution (NFCC#3B).
    • Image:Giants Delphi Original.jpg is not low resolution (NFCC#3B).
    • Image:Giants Meccaryn Jump Attack.jpg has the stated fair use purpose of “show[ing] the interface of the game, and illustrat[ing] an action scene in the game.” The interface can be seen in the Delphi and Kabuto images. The Kabuto image most certainly seems to be an “action sequence”. What significant understanding does “jump attack” provide above the contributions of the other images (NFCC#8)? Image appears redundant (NFCC#3A). ЭLСОВВОLД talk 22:23, 14 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I have removed Image:Giants Cast.jpg and reduced the following images to 0.1 megapixels as per low resolution standards: Image:Giants Delphi Original.jpg, and Image:Giants Citizen Kabuto Box Cover.jpg. The fair use rationales for Image:Giants Meccaryn Jump Attack.jpg have been corrected in regards to low_resolution rationales. The Kabuto sequence is an illustration to aid the reception section and is from external camera views. The Jump Attack picture is a gameplay screenshot. I believe the low resolution policy is directed at piracy attempts, which is impossible for screenshots of games. The 0.1 megapixel restriction recommended in Template:Non-free image data is a guideline which is commented in the archived talk here. Do these address the image concerns? Jappalang (talk) 02:55, 15 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    The purpose in the FUR for Image:Giants Meccaryn Jump Attack.jpg still seems insufficient in establishing the significance of the image. If I'm correct in assuming that I know what the image is attempting to accomplish, I would recommend rewriting the purpose to align with this article prose: "Players control their characters from the default third person perspective". Reduction in resolution would lose the two small characters in the center and the "Sea Reaperman" text; I'm not convinced those elements are important enough to warrant the this resolution. ЭLСОВВОLД talk 18:14, 17 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I have reduced its resolution, and rewritten its FUR as well as the caption in the article to express the default third-person interface illustration. Are these measures sufficient? Jappalang (talk) 21:46, 17 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, indeed! ЭLСОВВОLД talk 21:57, 17 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

  • Refs where the author is "IGN Staff" don't need that. Only give author if there's a definite person behind it.
    It is correctly attributed to them. Certain sites (e.g. GameSpot, IGN) only name the author if a certain staff member or a guest writer is involved. Crediting to the "staff" neither goes against policy or is bad form. Jappalang (talk) 13:43, 18 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    It looks tacky to write Staff when it's assumed, if nobody else is named. At least, to me. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 07:36, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Move the image in the Reception section down, below the reviews table, so there's more room for prose
    I have changed the position as suggested, thereby "liberating" the text. :-P Jappalang (talk) 13:43, 18 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Windows version box cover art" - not really needed unless box art was *very* different on other versions
    Actually, the PlayStation 2 cover is different. Refer to gallery of covers at Moby. The Mac cover is slightly different, more like a cropped version of the Windows cover (hard to find a large version of it but you can see a thumbnail of it at its apple page. Jappalang (talk) 13:43, 18 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    That makes sense. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 07:36, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Include the soundtrack's track listing in the article (see Age of Mythology for a drop down box for that, if you like).
    I think a track listing is not a requirement for a FA. If there was substantial information or reviews over a particular track or several of them, then it would qualify under coverage to bring them into the article. However, since the article's mention over the music is a general overview, and history of selecting the composers; having a list of tracks would be superfluous. The external link to Giants World Domination offers the track listing for anyone who is interested. Jappalang (talk) 13:43, 18 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 09:43, 18 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved issues Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 14:15, 21 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose it makes a good article, otherwise I wouldn't have passed it, but I think it fails based on criteria 1a. The prose is occasionally grammatically incorrect, and poor syntax and awkward phrasing make it annoying to read. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 20:43, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • For this to be an actionable oppose, samples would help. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:25, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • For example, the last paragraph of the lead: "Game critics praised the game for its state of the art graphics, humorous story, and success in blending in one genre with another. Criticisms of the game centered on the Windows version being released with crippling software bugs and lack of an in-game save feature, the latter also a criticism of the Mac OS X version. While the PlayStation 2 version added this feature, it excluded the multiplayer feature; and critics rated it technically inferior to the Windows version. The game sold poorly for both Windows and PlayStation 2, although it enjoyed a successful launch for its small Mac OS X market." Sounds redundant, tacked-on clauses. Annoying passive voice which causes odd jumps in flow, for example "Each player directly controls a single character; a decision made by Planet Moon Studios to focus the players on the action without them getting overburdened with micromanagement." Also some random phrasing in reception, such as "Giants' scores of 85 and 86.7% on the compiler sites Metacritic and Gamerankings indicate most critics awarded high marks to it." (Why wouldn't you just state MC gave it this, GR has that?) The reception prattles on with sections like "The Entertainment Depot commented it is the levels in the Kabuto segment that are boring due to the same objectives throughout." Also, some glaring MoS issues (like commas after refs) which if I am noticing means it's in a bad way. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 21:38, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I have copyedited the article. All passive sentences are now active voiced. I have brushed up the connectives between the sentences, and rearranged a few to provide a better reading flow. I reduced the "prattling" on in the Reception by broadly grouping the reviewers' opinions instead of focusing on details, and eliminating most of the "namedroppings". I have also ensured all references are after punctuations, although I protest it only occured in the last statement of article in its previous state. As for why I did not state "GR and MC gave xx and yy", GR and MC do not review games but calculate a score. My original intent for the statement was to indicate the most reviewers, in the pool used by those sites, gave a high score to Giants. I have rewritten the statement to be clearer in this intent. I appreciate the feedback and ask of you to take a look through the article again. (Article as of these actions) Jappalang (talk) 07:18, 20 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Other concerns:
  • "As there is a limited number of Smarties in a mission" - are?
    I presume you mean the grammatical use of "is"/"are"? I believe this is contentious, but "is" is the proper form to use because we are talking about a group (i.e. "the number"). Although not recommended, let us try a bit of Googling. Google shows "353,000" hits for "are a limited number of" and 388,000 for "is a limited number of". This might mean they are equally used; but if we avoid the 'split infinitive' and go for "a number of", then "is a number of" shows 4,100,000 hits, and "are a number of" shows 2,760,000 hits. I would prefer one who has an English major to help us out here. Any one? Jappalang (talk) 22:37, 20 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He consumes Smarties to grow in size and power; when he is at maximum size, he can produce smaller Tyrannosaurus rex-like units as troops." - citation for the T-rex comparison?
    This is from the citation provided at the end of the paragraph since that reference provides for the ending two sentences. Jappalang (talk) 22:37, 20 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The game world of Giants is set on the fictional Island, a piece of rock hurtling through outer space." - clarify; how can an island be an asteroid at the same time?
    The "Island" as implied by the capital "I" is the name of the piece of rock. I have italicized it as per WP:MOS to make this clearer. Jappalang (talk) 22:37, 20 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "They set up the Smarties' work ethics as part of a visual reward system; players labor for the Smarties while witnessing their hedonistic indulgences. The payoff, however, is a 'big gun'" - what is this big gun?
    The "big gun" is the metaphor for the reward. What is not more desirable than a "big gun"? Fans might argue it refers to the Millenium Mortar, but the source (the developer in the cited article) only states "giant gun" without specifying which gun is it. I replaced "big" with "giant" to make it clearer as a quotation. Jappalang (talk) 22:37, 20 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "...the laid-back natures of his friends – Gordon and Bennett – frustrates him as much as the troubles gotten into by inquisitive Tel and Reg." - you've never mentioned 'Tel' and 'Reg' before - who are they?
    They are the band of Meccaryns he leads. I stated the composition of the band to clear doubts of their identity. Jappalang (talk) 22:37, 20 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The player as Baz is on the Island looking for the missing Meccaryns, Reg and Tel." - You might have misunderstood me; passive voice is fine as long as it doesn't lead to confusion about who or what is doing what action. When the alternative is awkward, rephrase like "As Baz, the player is on the Island looking for..." et al.
    Implemented the suggestion. Jappalang (talk) 22:37, 20 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Timmy, a Smartie rescued in the first mission, functions as a guide for the player; he functions as a plot device to move the story forward" - rephrase to remove redundant-sounding 'function', perhaps 'also serves as' because there's no direct link between player guide and plot device.
    Implemented the suggestion. Jappalang (talk) 22:37, 20 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • The entire plot section occasionally suffers from "the player... the player" redundancy. As this is the plot section, no one is going to complain if you use character's names for actions, if this cuts down on the awkward sentences.
    Implemented the suggestion. Jappalang (talk) 22:37, 20 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "They also consulted... the team..." et al in development - vary the language ("Planet Moon" did this, that, whatever).
    Implemented the suggestion. I hope I have varied enough. Jappalang (talk) 22:37, 20 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "MacPlay announced on November 01, 2000, it was publishing the Mac OS X version of the game" - remove the comma
    Implemented the suggestion. Jappalang (talk) 22:37, 20 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Interplay's division, Digital Mayhem, started to port the game to the PlayStation 2 (PS2) on January 22, 2001,[38] and posted updates of their progress on IGN." - you jump from October of 2001 back in time to January. Perhaps state this as concurrently, e.g. "Meanwhile the Interplay division Digital Mayhem had started porting the game to the PS2 on..." or something similar.
    Implemented the suggestion. Jappalang (talk) 22:37, 20 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "They and IGN thought the enemy AI was terrible; enemies were unaware of the deaths of nearby teammates, or kept running into obstacles.[11][2] ActionTrip, however, had found the AI decent enough." - 'They'? Say 'Both FiringSquad and IGN' or something similar. Rephrase the ActionTrip's counterpoint, perhaps attach it with a semicolon to provide the contrast.
    Implemented the first part. Regarding ActionTrip's counterpoint, I could not simply tack it on with a semicolon as IGN's and FS's criticism had one (I think it looks bad and might contravene some grammar law or something). However, I expanded on why ActionTrip think the enemy AI was decent in a similar sentence structure to the criticism which should provide a contrast. Jappalang (talk) 22:37, 20 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "... pointedly asked why did Interplay focus on censoring the game for marketing purposes instead of testing for and fixing the bugs before release." - rephrase to "asked why Interplay had focused on censoring..."
    Implemented the suggestion. Jappalang (talk) 22:37, 20 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "they reported the game sold poorly for the Windows version." - rephrase to "they reported the Windows version sold poorly." and maybe note which publications reported the poor sales?
    Implemented the suggestion. Jappalang (talk) 22:37, 20 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Despite Digital Media Online's pessimism about the smaller Mac OS X market's demand for the game,[72] it sold out within months of its release.[73] According to the quarterly sales reports by NPDFunWorld, the PS2 version sold 11,272 copies in the US for the 6 months since its release" - need some contrast between the sentence before talking about Windows selling poorly and then the Mac's sellout. Also, is 11,272 good for a PS2 game or bad? you need to state it- and write out '6'.
    I am not certain what you mean on the contrast part, but I tried something. Please read the change and comment. If it still fails to throw up a contrast, could you give more specific examples (they need not be on Giants). I have added figures from games released in the same month as Giants to back up a conclusion of poor sales on the PS2. I used Shadow Hearts, a Japanese CRPG and Max Payne an action shooter which I think is a pretty good selection. On the '6' part, I followed the guideline in WP:NUMBERS when it was not disputed, and recommended numbers in a statement to be all digits or words; but that is moot since the whole section is in dispute. I have gone ahead to the mixed format of digits for large numbers and words for the small numbers in this sentence. Jappalang (talk) 22:37, 20 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
--When you've addressed these concerns, leave a note on my talk page and I'll stop by again. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 13:49, 20 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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