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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Frank Berryman/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by GrahamColm 08:02, 6 October 2012 [1].

Frank Berryman edit

Frank Berryman (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): Hawkeye7 (talk) 09:03, 14 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

An Australian general of World War II. Hawkeye7 (talk) 09:03, 14 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments. As always, feel free to revert my copyediting. Please check the edit summaries. - Dank (push to talk)

  • "After the war, he spent nearly twenty years as a major.": On a quick read, I didn't see that in the text.
  • "Lieutenant General Sir Frank Horton Berryman ... rose to the rank of lieutenant general ...": repetition. Also, since he was a major later, was this a brevet rank?
    • He was not a major later. It does not say that. Hawkeye7 (talk) 22:05, 15 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • My mistake here too ... but "Lieutenant General ... lieutenant general" in the same sentence is still a form of repetition that we're avoiding when possible. You could simply omit the first "Lieutenant General".
  • "in 1913. Graduating early due to the First World War, he served on the Western Front with the field artillery.": I think everyone is disallowing this use of "due to" at FAC now; most style guides say it can modify a noun, and not for instance "graduating". "in 1913, graduating early to serve with the field artillery on the Western Front of the First World War."
    • That would not be correct. His class graduated early due to the outbreak of the war. Hawkeye7 (talk) 22:05, 15 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • Well, yes ... now it says that. If you're interested, we could have a long, word-geeky talk about "due to". I'll rewrite; check it out. - Dank (push to talk) 19:54, 16 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
        • No, that is not right. His class was graduated early, which allowed the senior class (and some of the instructors) to join the AIF. But they didn't have to! Some of the class said "no". Hawkeye7 (talk) 20:58, 16 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Major General General Staff": Not a lot we can do about militarese, but what do you think of "Major General, General Staff,"?
  • Otherwise fine in the lead. - Dank (push to talk) 23:07, 14 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Mentioned in Despatches": Roughly speaking, there's no such thing as a "proper verb", outside of militarese and a few proper nouns used as verbs. I changed this to "received a Mention in Despatches", and if you want to go with that, then make the capitalization consistent throughout ... you write "mention in despatches" later on, and either capitalization is fine. - Dank (push to talk) 20:41, 16 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "schmozzle": colloquial
  • "prepared appreciations of the situation": I don't know what that means.
    • It's a military term. This had not occurred to me until I checked with the dictionary. In my time stationed in your country I had never heard "appreciation" used in any other sense. eg. "Mission command that conveys intent and an appreciation of all aspects of the situation guides the adaptive use of Army forces." (FM 3-0) "Understanding the parts of a situation is necessary; however, alone it does not provide an appreciation of the relationships among the parts. That appreciation requires synthesis. Synthesis is thinking about how the parts of a situation work together as a whole rather than in isolation." (FM 5-0) This led me to TRADOC 525-5-500 "Commander’s Appreciation and Campaign Design" which provides a definition:

Appreciation is the act of estimating the qualities of things and giving them their proper value. It is essentially an understanding of the nature or meaning or quality or magnitude of the situation before you. For the purposes of military operations, an “appreciation” allows the commander to design, plan, execute, and—most importantly—adapt his actions within the operational environment, through learning about the nature and context of the problem as the campaign unfolds. (p. 20)

The manual then goes on to describe the procedure than an officer like Berryman would follow to produce an appreciation today. Hawkeye7 (talk) 19:10, 17 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "US Army LCMs and Australian Army DUKWs": Most readers won't have a clue what those are without clicking, so per WP:Checklist#clarity, some extra text of your choice is needed. "amphibious" and/or "landing craft" spring to mind.
    • Re-worded so you don't have to click. Hawkeye7 (talk) 19:10, 17 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the advance element": I think I agree with your calls, but search for "advance" to make sure you're as consistent as you want to be. Sometimes you say "advance" and sometimes "advanced" in this sense.
  • Support on prose per standard disclaimer. These are my edits. (Edits may take days to show up on that page.) - Dank (push to talk) 13:57, 17 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "His attendance at the staff college from 1926 to 1928 marked him out": That sounds like he got a gold star for perfect attendance. If I understand your meaning, you might go with "As one of only X students attending ..., he was marked out ..." - Dank (push to talk) 17:59, 17 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • No, that is right. Simply being sent marked you out, rather than anything that you did there. You got to add "psc" as a post-nominal. Re-worded to make this clearer. Hawkeye7 (talk) 19:10, 17 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Everything looks great. Thanks for the explanations. I'm glad it annoys you when I get something wrong; I wish it annoyed everyone. - Dank (push to talk) 20:13, 17 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Images: several files need PD-1996, for which they qualify, in order to indicate their status in the United States. Otherwise fine. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 15:23, 15 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done

  • Hill is missing location
  • Two different Australian locations for Cambridge UP, is this correct? Nikkimaria (talk) 13:06, 19 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • Yes. I can only surmised that they moved office some time between 1992 and 2007. They are both suburbs of Melbourne. Hawkeye7 (talk) 23:40, 30 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Comments: just a few minor nitpicks:
    • inconsistent terminology: in the lead and infobox you have "First World War", but then elsewhere "Great War". Either is fine, IMO, but I think it would be best to be consistent;
      • "Great War " is always preferred, but consistency requires the less favoured and anachronistic "First World War". Hawkeye7 (talk) 23:40, 30 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • inconsistent capitalisation: "militia" and "Militia"?
    • inconsistent capitalisation "Mention in Despatches" and "mention in despatches";
    • I wonder about the presentation of some of the names. For instance, "John Austin Chapman", "Edward James Milford", "Harold William Grimwade", "George Alan Vasey". I think it is more common to just display first and last names for Australians, so maybe these should just be piped?
    • the duplicate link checker tool reports a few examples of potentially overlinked items: George Alan Vasey, Brigadier, I Corps (Australia), Major General (Australia), New Guinea Force, Major General, Stanley Savige, General, Brisbane, 7th Division (Australia), 9th Division (Australia), 5th Division (Australia), Prime Minister of Australia, and Sydney Rowell;
    • slightly repetitious: "which were in front of the infantry's front lines". Perhaps, "which were forward of the infantry's front lines"?
    • I think that italics might be required here: "At the time of his funeral the Ambassador for Lebanon, Raymond Heneine, wrote in the Canberra Times" (italics for Canberra Times);
    • "Melway publishing" --> "Melway Publishing"?
    • is there an OCLC number for the Wigmore source?
    • are there page numbers for the chapter by Dyer? (I wish I'd seen this earlier, I had that book out from the library last week and could have added them in for you). Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 00:47, 29 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • I don't have that book, so I've removed the solitary reference. Hawkeye7 (talk) 02:19, 1 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I am working through this article now. I have no knowledge of this subject matter. Comments as I go:

Lead
  • he entered Duntroon in 1913; unclear what Duntroon is to the uninitiated - consider using Royal Military College, Duntroon for full context
  • His class graduated early after the First World War broke out; I might just be nitpicking but.. this reads oddly to me. Did they graduate early because of the First World War or are you merely stating they graduated just after the outbreak of war (it's only a slight incongruity, I guess the former is right from later sections). Might be worth rephrasing.
    • You can see the discussion above; but it bow says because of the outbreak Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:02, 4 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Berryman commanded Eastern Command; nit picking. Is there a good synonym for commanded to use here?
  • As a personal preference I usually look for a sentence about the particular thing that makes this individual notable or interesting in the very first paragraph. It's not a big deal, but I feel it helps the lead hook the reader.
    • He is notable because he was a general, per MOS:SOLDIER. Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:02, 4 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Education and early life
  • 1903 Railway Strike; no article? If not then more context may be needed (and "the" feels misplaced, implying the reader should know what was being talked about).
    • There is no article, but it is notable and one could be written. I did not red link it though, because I have no intention of doing so, and know of nobody else who intends to write it either. I think the reader gets the idea that it was a major strike, and the workers lost. It provides information about Frank's working class socio-economic background. It also ties in with his role in the more famous 1949 Australian coal strike. I did gather material to expand that one, but never got around to it. Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:02, 4 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Of 33 members; missing "the"? "of" is used many times in the last couple of sentences, and it sticks the prose up a bit. Consider a rephrase.
First World War
  • Berryman's Duntroon class had not yet completed its military training at the outbreak of the First World War; basically a restatement of the previous sentence. I'd suggest something like "Early graduation meant that Berryman's Duntroon class had not yet completed its military training"
    • Deleted "at the outbreak of the First World War". At Duntroon, most of the military training is conducted in the final year. Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:02, 4 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • First AIF; as the first instance of this acronym I recommend writing it in full.
  • the result of an AIF policy; redundancy, previous sentence should make it clear enough this is an AIF policy.
  • aimed at giving them a broad a range of experience, which would benefit the post-war Army, while not allowing the young officers of high rank to outnumber the posts available for them.; it took me a while to wrap my head around this. Perhaps rephrase: "a policy intended to benefit the post-war Army, by giving the young officers a broad range of experience without promoting too many to high ranks (who might outnumber the available posts in peacetime)."
    • This policy was aimed at giving them a broad a range of experience, which would benefit the Army, while not allowing them to outnumber the available post-war positions. Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:02, 4 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Mention in Despatches does not look like a quotation due to the placement of the image messing with the indentation. In addition the image squeezes the article text between itself and the infobox (contrary to MOS:IMAGELOCATION). Suggest moving the image to the right, below the infobox, to solve this.
  • He returned to Australia in October 1919; is there a particular reason?
    • Because the war had ended. With the war over, he returned to Australia in October 1919. I am used to AIF files that list everyone's RTA date. Hawkeye7 (talk)

That's it for now. Be aware I am a reviewer newbie, and may be too nit-picking in my comments :) Generally Support as reviewed to the bottom of First World War. --Errant (chat!) 09:27, 4 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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