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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Dwain Chambers/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 19:33, 27 August 2008 [1].

Dwain Chambers

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Nominator(s): Sillyfolkboy (talk)


I'm nominating this article for featured article as I've expanded the article extensively and the peer review seemed to suggest it was close to FA standard. Also, it seems to stand up next to Ian Thorpe, the only other track and field athlete FA I found. Sillyfolkboy (talk) 22:29, 16 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please close and archive the peer review; per the instructions at both WP:FAC and WP:PR, articles shouldn't be simultaneously listed at both places. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:32, 16 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I have closed the peer review. Dabomb87 (talk) 22:49, 16 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Issues resolved, Giants2008 (17-14) 19:00, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments - —This is part of a comment by Giants2008 (of 02:56, 17 August 2008 (UTC)), which was interrupted by the following: [reply]

  • "but he finished last, suffering from cramp in the finals." Shouldn't this be "a cramp"?
    • Fixed.
  • American football should be linked in first use instead of second.
    • Fixed.
  • Junior atletics: "and broke the 100 metres sprint record with a time of 10.06 seconds; a world junior record at the time." Change the semi-colon to a comma.
    • Fixed.
  • Senior athletics: Delink British here. We don't need something that well-known linked so much.
    • Fixed - is it still excessively linked in the article?
  • I'm concerned that some terms may not be encyclopedic. For instance, are grabbed and steamed really appropriate for our best work?
    • Fixed those instances - problem was that phrases like "he finished in second place" were getting a bit repetitive. Any more changes suggested and do you agree with my fixes?
  • Sevilla World Championships to Sydney Olympics: "Chambers studied the technique of other sprinters in order to improve himself." Sometimes, writing is crisper with fewer words.
    • Fixed, are the other uses justified in their use or should they be removed too?
  • Darren Campbell was linked in a previous section.
    • Fixed.
  • "This fired Chambers' confidence" I didn't know confidence could be fired. Maybe try raised? Also, I think games should be Games for the Olympics.
    • Didn't really see the problem here but I've changed it to "raised" per your suggestions.
  • The Atlantic link needs ocean capitalized.
    • Fixed. (Now that's some thorough article checking!)
  • Edmonton World Championships: The IAAF needs to be spelled out in first use, with initials in parentheses.

Giants2008 (17-14) 02:56, 17 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I was asked for more thoughts on my talk page, so I've come back to review more.
  • Change the heading Early Career to Early career.
  • Who is the AAA?
  • "The AAA trials and British Grand Prix had seen the runner add another string to his cap,..." Another string to his cap? Again, this is inappropriate for a featured article. I sympathize with you on avoiding repetition, but there has to be a better way.
  • Maurice Greene doesn't need another link in Edmonton World Championships. Also don't like this sentence: "Defeat in Sydney was fresh in his mind and Chambers pondered on the victorius Maurice Greene." Never heard the term "pondered on" before; maybe it's a British thing? Oh, and Tom Fordyce can be linked.
  • "This was not enough for a medal in a strong race which featured five sprinters running under ten seconds, Greene was triumphant once again." Comma needs to be a semi-colon.
  • 2002 Commonwealth Games: "The opportunity of international glory on home-turf appealed to Chambers in the forthcoming 2002 Commonwealth Games; hosted in Manchester, England." Change semi-colon to a comma. More importantly, this sentence needs a citation because it reeks of original research without one. It shouldn't be hard to find something on this, if the current references don't discuss it.
  • Linford Christie was linked in the last section.
  • 2002 Commonwealth Games linked twice in section.
  • Don't like the way his cramping is phrased here either.

I'm sorry, but I have to oppose for now. I'm finding too many glitches. Please get more editors to work on this to help improve it. Giants2008 (17-14) 02:01, 19 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I completely understand how you feel on this. My most-edited article is on an LPGA golfer, and there aren't many editors working on female golfer bios either, though the ones that do work on these articles are good editors. I'd normally tell you to seek help from a quality editor who edits similar pages, but if these people don't exist you're better off looking elsewhere. Try seeing if anyone at WP:PRV is interested in helping. I'll give you some more to do now.
  • 2003 World Championships: Maurice Greene doesn't need to be linked again. We already know who he is by now.
  • One piece of advice I can offer is to be cautious with phrases like "excelled" and "impressive", which are peppered throughout the article. Many reviewers consider these POV, even if they describe one's performance, like these are.
  • "Chambers squandered his anchoring lead in the 4x100 metres relay, allowing Joshua J. Johnson to steal first place for the U.S. team." I have a little issue with "steal". This is implying that the U.S. weren't as good as the British. Instead of putting it like this, maybe just say that the British team was favoured (British English :-) heading into the race, assuming that they were.
  • "Chambers was about to become big news." I'd like to see "Chambers was about to make big news." If you could work "headlines" into this, it would be even better.
  • Drugs ban: Don't need another United States link.
  • "baseball big-hitter Barry Bonds." Probably better to just say outfielder. If you want a descriptive term, call him a power-hitting baseball outfielder.
  • Double BALCO and Victor Conte links aren't needed.
  • Comma after "Nehemiah's old team".
  • "appearing on British reality series". Change to "appeared on the British reality television series".
  • Return to athletics: Another repeated link, this time UK Athletics.
Important note before I end this batch: I own a copy of the book Game of Shadows, which includes information on Chambers' drug use, though it is mostly about Barry Bonds. If a reviewer wants to know more on this, let me know and I can provide some book citations. While I'm on the topic, I happened to look at the first page on Chambers (101), and it implies that Chambers considered his move to California a last chance of sorts. If he was thinking about retiring then, that is a vital fact not included in the article. The next page says he credited Conte for his improvement in 2002. Just a couple things to consider. Giants2008 (17-14) 00:31, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks again (diff). I'll look to further reduce possible overlinking and reduce the lead after seeing what User:TheHYPO did on Usain Bolt. I've already seen removals of phrases like "excelled" and "impress" in the Usain Bolt article and while I think it makes wikipedia entries a little more boring and dry I'll concede on this. I'm glad Donald Bradman wasn't punished as such!
Thank you very much for your excellent and insightful comments. They've improved the article significantly and you've really helped
Thank you for you comments. They've improved the article and helped.
Your comments helped improve the article. :-) 15:42, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
No problem. In response to a question on my talk page, here is a sentence from the book which I touched on earlier: "Chambers decided to come to the U.S. to take one last shot before quitting entirely." Are you sure this hasn't been reported anywhere in Britain? Two more interesting facts: The book implies that Conte chose to work with Chambers to get back at Tim Montgomery, with whom he had a feud over a payment dispute relating to "supplement" purchases. Also, an anonymous track-and-field source stated in the book that Chambers moved to America so he could gain access to Conte's drug program. Not sure if that's a good enough source, though Giants2008 (17-14) 18:46, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'll leave the quote listed as I think it is covered with the "frustrated by the distance..." sentence. I can't find anything relating to ideas about retiring - though Chambers is partial to the occasional dramatics I think maybe it's a bit of hyperbole in the book; after all, Chambers was only 24 at the time and it would have seemed a strange thought to have. What is the info about Montgomery like? Do you have a quote to support something like - "After a fall out with American sprinter Tim Montgomery, Conte looked to Chambers to fill the athlete's berth"? I would exclude the final info on grounds of verifiability, much hearsay can develop in light of a scandal so I'd like to keep it to the verifiable basics. Sillyfolkboy (talk) 18:49, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There's a lot more about Montgomery than Chambers. This is the sentence I'm referring to, again from Game of Shadows: "Conte decided that he would have the last word—he would create a sprinter even better than Montgomery." Naturally, there's a catch; the authors cite a pair of anonymous sources who Victor Conte worked with. It is from a best-selling book from a major publishing house, but I'm not sure if this is the direction you want to go. Just wanted to give you the facts required to make a decision on this. Giants2008 (17-14) 15:32, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I see. The problem is with the whole balco situation I think the truth is obscured and the myths are propagated. Regardless, I don't think this is an earth-shattering misconstruing of the facts and the statement i previously wrote is extremely neutral - I think I'll change it to "After parting ways with American sprinter Tim Montgomery, Conte looked to Chambers to fill the athlete's berth". It's a shame there aren't more reliable sources about Chambers' time with Conte. I have enough problems straddling between the views of "Chambers went to the US to do drugs" and "Chambers didn't realise they were drugs at all". I imagine it's a shade of grey in between those two views but sadly I think Game of Shadows isn't going to reveal it to us. Thanks for the hard work on getting the source though, I really appreciate it. Sillyfolkboy (talk) 10:29, 26 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment this could do with some further copy editing methinks. The majority of the article is well written and presented but some words and statements are really diminishing (as already pointed out). Also, I dont know much on the article subject but the lead says "He currently has a lifetime ban from Olympic competition due to use of banned substances.[3]". The reference provided says 'Chambers gets two-year ban'. Obviously a contradiction, please ensure that all references are correctly placed at the right times! Domiy (talk) 06:08, 17 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • I've added a reference to his court case loss over his Olympic ban — The initial ban was from all competitions and the British Olympic Association enforce a lifetime olympic ban for any convicted drug abusers. Is it clear or could it be better explained? I was worried about making it too wordy. Additionally, are your problems with the prose now resolved or do you have any other concerns? Sillyfolkboy (talk) 13:34, 17 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

comment excellent job with images (criteria 3) Fasach Nua (talk) 10:31, 17 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments - I reviewed the sources at PR, and my concerns were resolved there. I double checked the sourcing when it hit FAC, and it's still looks good. Links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:30, 17 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - Just to note that I've added the runner infobox that I found whilst writing the Usain Bolt article. Think it looks better than just the medals topped by an image. Sillyfolkboy (talk) 03:08, 19 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I would prefer having considerably shorter introduction. It goes into too many details, like listing several competitions he took place at. Mentioning inspiration by Maurice Greene and appearing in reality shows isn't intro material as well. Just write the basic things, the others are dealt with later in the article. So much for now, I'll come back later. --Tone 07:50, 19 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What do you suggest I remove? I only listed the most important competitions: Olympics/World Championships and Commonwealth games in his home country. I'm cutting out little bits that don't add much however. I think reality shows (and his football try outs) are important to the lead - after all this is pretty much all chambers did for three years of his prime sporting life so I think it justifies the five words it takes up. Also, quite a part of the article is a document of how Chambers saw Greene as both his rival and someone to look up to. I thought the lead was supposed to summarise the article, not strip it down to bare facts? Sillyfolkboy (talk) 13:10, 20 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've done some more reduction of the lead. I find it quite difficult to remove things given how varied Chambers' form was and how he flitted between athletics and other sports. Compared to Ian Thorpe it covers the same material albeit longer given Thorpe only competed for six years as opposed to Dwain's 13 (with 3 years of suspension) and the lack of a drug scandal to explain. Any ideas on how to reduce what's there already into something more concise? Sillyfolkboy (talk) 13:30, 20 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I have trimmed some sentences that do not fit in the lead. It looks better now though some more could be done. Feel free to revert me, though. --Tone 22:46, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I gave it a couple more tweaks but I think you've done a good job of reducing it. I suppose I was writing more for athletics fans than your average reader! Cheers. Sillyfolkboy (talk) 09:59, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Units abbrevation Just a note that, though I wrote it differently originally, I intend to reduce all excess "metres" and "seconds" when the unit is established in both lead and article. I will use the full metres when a separate event is listed (e.g. 4x100 metres) but I will reduce those to "m" when they are also established in the article/lead. Any objections? (see Ian Thorpe usage and the guideline) Sillyfolkboy (talk) 10:42, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I wonder what is the purpose of having Please see IAAF decision on Chambers' drug ban under Notes. Isn't this referenced earlier in the article? I find it redundant. --Tone 21:09, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I was looking to provide extra info to the reader there but if you feel it's redundant I'll remove it. Sillyfolkboy (talk) 18:49, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments—I've looked up mostly for style flaws:

  • Lead section:
    • According to this, the birth place should not be entangled with the birth date, but indicated afterwards, outside the parenthesis.
      • Removed - listed in personal life section.
    • Link the first "100 metres sprint" instance directly to 100 metres, to avoid a redirect. Also, link "Edmonton World Championships" to 2001 World Championships in Athletics.
      • Done - though wikipedia policy states this is not a problem as long as the redirect is relevant.
    • "Chambers received a two year athletics ban (...)" — hyphenate "two year" (i.e. two-year).
      • Done.
  • "Senior athletics":
    • Merge first two sentences, since they are short and related;
      • Done. Thought it might've been too big in one but if you say it's fine then it's fine.
        • I'm not sure you did. They seem untouched.
          • Did you mean merge the senior and junior athletics sections? Senior used to be in two parts as you can see here
    • "(...) former sprinter Mike McFarlane and the Commonwealth Games gold medallist became his coach." can be rephrased to "former sprinter and Commonwealth Games gold medallist Mike McFarlane, who became his coach."
    • "Chambers felt elated at the achievement but the competition was fierce. Fellow British sprinter Jason Gardener(...)" you can join these sentences as well.
      • Rephrased both sentences as requested.
    • It's "Seville" in English, "Sevilla" is Spanish form. Change following sub-section's title AND further instances, accordingly.
      • Oops! The IAAF native listing format and a year in Spain have obviously rubbed off on me! Done.
  • "Sevilla World Championships to Sydney Olympics":
    • The first link for "United States" is US; the MoS abbreviation guidelines recommend you spell out abbreviations and give the acronym (between parenthesis), with later instances replaced by the acronym only; for example, you say "USA team" later on when you can use "US".
      • Done.
    • Unlink second instances for "Marlon Devonish" and "2000 Sydney Olympics".
      • Done. I seem to have gone to town on the linking in some parts!
    • "21-years-old" or "21 years old"?
      • Unsure so changed to "the age of 21"
    • "In an interview with the BBC's Tom Fordyce (...)" — why a "the"?
      • It makes more sense to me that way: "an interview with the British Broadcasting Corporation's Tom Fordyce" as opposed to "an interview with British Broadcasting Corporation's Tom Fordyce". What do you suggest I do?
        • Im' not sure, so leave it until someone else, knows it better. It's funny how that "the" seems more natural when BBC it's spelled-out.
          • I guess spelling it out fully in it's first instance here couldn't do any harm anyway. Fixed.
    • "(...) sprinting over 50 metres, 60 metres and 200 metres in various competitions." — you're enumerating so you can keep only the last "metres".
      • Done. What do you think of the idea of reducing them all to "m"s and "s"s?
        • Good idea. Don't forget though, that there must always be a first spelled-out instance.
  • "Edmonton World Championships":
    • "He won at the IAAF Grand Prix in Sevilla (...). In the run up to the 2001 International Association of Athletics Federations (IAAF) Edmonton World Championships (...)" — Two links to the same page and the extended form with appended acronym is not the first instance. This must be corrected.
      • Fixed.
    • Tom Fordyce is linked here but his name shows up in the previous sub-section. Place first link there.
      • Fixed and removed repeated BBC info.
  • "2002 Commonwealth Games":
    • "Emerging as the favourite to win the 100 metres at the [2002 Commonwealth Games(...)" — there's a left square bracket lost in there.
      • Done - Cheers for that one.
  • "Drugs ban":
    • "A sample for an out of competition drugs test" — shouldn't it be "out-of-competition"?
      • Indeed it should - done.
    • The link on "The United States Anti-Doping Agency (USADA) were(...)" should be on the extended name, which is the actual title of the agency's article. The same needs to be done with "Bay Area Laboratory Cooperative (BALCO)".
      • Fixed.
    • You can put anabolic steroid when THG is mentioned for the first time.
      • Done.
    • "Chambers tried out – unsuccessfully – with Nehemiah's old team" — replace spaced en-dashes with em-dashes.
      • Done.
  • "Return to athletics":
    • "After a two year ban for drugs, Chambers" — two-year ban.
      • Fixed.
    • "gold-medal-winning" — gold medal-winning
      • Done.
  • "NFL Europa":
    • "Chambers' new career was brought to a stand still (...) The situation worsened further the NFL closed (...)" — "standstill"; "worsened further when the NFL closed (...)".
      • Fixed standstill and added when.
  • "High Court appeal":
    • "British Olympic Association" is already linked in the sub-section "Athletics pariah". You can add the "BOA" acronym there, right after the spelled-out name, and leave only the abbreviation in this sub-section.
      • Done.
  • Correct "Chambers'" to "Chambers's". There are PLENTY!
    • It appears both Chambers's and Chambers' are correct and it's a matter of preference - the style I tend to follow is the one listed in the first bullet point here. Note it can be pronounced in the same manner as plain "Chambers" is. The difficulty lies in if the extra "s" is added it leaves the reader with the hard pronunciation of "CHAYM-BURZ-UZ" which I feel is awkward.
      • Oh, didn't know about that exception (I'm not native English-speaker). Then, be sure that you have always that possessive form throughout the article.
        • "Chambers' is used throughout the article now.
  • I count eleven red links. You can either create articles for all of them or remove the links altogether.
    • What about this?
      • Needed a little more time to check sources for making articles - I've reduced it to three red links now through making articles, changing where the link directs and in a couple of cases plain removal. British Grand Prix in Athletics, Weltklasse and European Clubs' Cup still remain and I believe they deserve articles. I may create these last ones personally in the future.
  • The "Personal life" section is rather small. Can't you incorporate it in "Biography", somehow?
    • This issue was raised in the peer review — the difficulty is that all the information I can find about his family lacks a clear date thus it is hard to fit chronologically within the main body. However, I feel the information is very relevant to the subject and would not warrant simple exclusion.
      • It's just it too small to be a section of its own. Chambers's personal life is a part of his biography after all. Would it seem too strange to put this as the last sub-section under "Biography", even if it does lack a chronological sequence?
        • I agree that it is part of the biography but tacking it on to the end of a mainly athletics based body does seem awkward. I think the "Biography" header is causing more of a problem in this way. Maybe it should be athletics career because that's the sole focus anyway? I would prefer to keep a chronological main body even though the personal life info is scant. I have used the headings to both break up the text in to specific sections and make a helpful table of contents. See the TOC at the beginning of the article - it makes more sense that way. I imagine that if he finishes his autobiography there will be plenty of verifiable information to add to the personal life section and maybe an athletics "Style" section too.

So far, this is what I've noticed better. Otherwise, it seems fully comprehensive, well sourced article, with a good writing (though many times commas are missing). Parutakupiu (talk) 02:33, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thanks very much, for the rephrasing and formatting suggestions especially. In terms of commas feel freeto do it yourself and place them in wherever you feel necessary. Comma placement seems to come down to personal preference on occasions so it's hard for me to spot where they are missing. Thanks for all the comments. Sillyfolkboy (talk) 19:45, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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