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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Colorado Avalanche/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted 18:16, 6 August 2007.

Colorado Avalanche edit

I have been working on this article to expand it and detail it. It is heavily referenced and I think it really tells the story of this sports team. The article was submitted for two peer-reviews, but I had no reply on the last one.--Serte [ Talk · Contrib ] 10:19, 10 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Spend some time on the WP:DASHes. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:37, 10 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Solved, I think. Thanks.--Serte [ Talk · Contrib ] 17:09, 10 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Support Well written and referenced. Looks good. Kaiser matias 06:00, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support Per Kaiser matias, you've put a lot of work into this article. BsroiaadnTalk 13:22, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Needs a good copyedit first.
"The Avalanche are also notable for being the first team in NHL history to win the Stanley Cup their first season after a re-location". Not concise - remove "also notable for being".
You need to clarify what the WHA is for non-hockey folks. You immediately switch from "World Hockey Association" to "WHA"
There are lots of instances of "would [verb]", which should be shortened to just [past tense of verb]. Example: "Lindros refused to sign a contract and began a holdout that would last over a year" should be "Lindros refused to sign a contract and began a holdout that lasted over a year"
"Two years later, in 1979" Spot the redundancy.
"the Nordiques fell into the league's basement" Non sports people might not understand what a "league basement" is.
"In 1991, for the third straight draft, Quebec had the first overall selection...." Sentence has no lead-in context.
"The Lindros trade is seen (at least in hindsight)" should be "In hindsight...". The rest of the sentence is a run-on, and there should be a citation for the team becoming contenders overnight.
"In the first season after the trade, the 1992–93 NHL season, the Nordiques reached the playoffs for the first time in six years and would do so two seasons later". Awkward.
"While the team experienced on-ice success, the team was far less successful off the ice" Repetitive. Try "the team struggled financially".
"Quebec City was the smallest market in the league and in 1995,[13]". This is a weird citation. Is it supposed to be referencing the "smallest market" bit?
The 1995-2001 and 2001-present sections are too long. Consider shortening them and possibly creating History of the Colorado Avalanche.
This is what I have for now. I'll watchlist the discussion. -Wafulz 13:49, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the reply. I'll try to address those issues very soon. English is not my native language, isn't there someone available to help FAC's on copyedit issues? I'll (try to) correct every one you mentioned, but you said it needs a good copyedit. And that "weird citation" really is to reference the smallest market bit. It should be after "league" and not there, probably. Thanks--Serte [ Talk · Contrib ] 14:02, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
All addressed, but: "In 1991, for the third straight draft, Quebec had the first overall selection...." Sentence has no lead-in context." I don't really understand what you mean. The fact that a team has the first overall selection means that the team is weak. Three straight seasons illustrates that even better. Also, that sentence serves as an introduction to the Lindros trade, a major event in the history of the franchise. About the history sections, I'm not sure if there is really the need to create a new article for them. The article has around 29 KBs of text, which is good enough, but I agree that the sections may look big. I could divide them further: it would "dilute" the amount of text. I'll try to see what can be reduced and deleted.--Serte [ Talk · Contrib ] 16:56, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I mean the sentences don't flow well. "They finished in last. They had three draft picks. Eric Lindros didn't want to come over". These are three distinct topics all bundled together into one thought. Try something like: "...and three times had the worst record of the league. As a result, the team earned three consecutive first overall draft picks, which they used to select Mats Sundin (1989), Owen Nolan (1990), and Eric Lindros (1991). Although Lindros..."
Done, I think.--Serte [ Talk · Contrib ] 17:21, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That works. You even linked the draft articles, which I was going to mention but forgot.:o) -Wafulz 17:37, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia:WikiProject League of Copyeditors might be a good place to start, but they prefer being notified before an article is put up as FA candidate. I could go through and copyedit myself later tonight, but then I wouldn't be able to support the article without having a conflict of interest.-Wafulz 14:25, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I submitted the article there exactly two months ago, but I think nothing was done. So, I guess resubmitting if there are no major concerns (other than the copyediting) is the way to go.--Serte [ Talk · Contrib ] 16:11, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
They might just have a huge backlog. Most of Wikipedia's articles are written poorly, so it wouldn't surprise me if they just haven't gotten around to it.-Wafulz 16:22, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: The second paragraph of the article seems to contain two facts (their home arena and their rivalry with the Red Wings) which are not at all related. To have randomness at such an early point in the article is quite distracting to its overall worth. Are there other places in the article where these sentences can go? Skudrafan1 15:26, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's just mirroring New Jersey Devils (the only other NHL team FA). It would work as a new paragraph in the lead I think.-Wafulz 15:31, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly.--Serte [ Talk · Contrib ] 16:56, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Is the need of a copyedit the only (major) objection? I need to know that before submitting the article to the WikiProject League of Copyeditors. Thanks.--Serte [ Talk · Contrib ] 17:40, 12 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I personally would have minor opposition until each game notable enough have a full game recap or a box score. 1996 Game four has an excerpt of a game recap and the date of the game is not stated in your article.
Also it seems more conventional to discuss all-stars as players who play in the mid season all-star game. Can you explain your reasoning?
Please cite "Joe Sakic was the playoffs leading scorer with 26 points (13 goals and 13 assists)."
The Colorado Avalanche had nine players representing six countries. (it seems there were 10 but 1 was injured from page 191 of the Franchise record book).
The Colorado Avalanche have the NHL record for the longest consecutive attendance sell out with 487. (I thought the Sabres had a streak of about 15 years). Also, the record in seasons might be longer because the seasons use to be much shorter. Any info on that record might be interesting.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 23:04, 12 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  1. I don't really see it as a game recap, it is just explaining what happened that created the Avs-Red Wings rivalry. 1996 final game in the Stanley Cup final has what you could call that, when it says that "In Game Four, during the third overtime and after more than 100 minutes of play with no goals, defenseman Uwe Krupp scored to claim the franchise's first Cup.". Is that kind of thing what you are talking about?
  2. There are two things. There are the players who play in the National Hockey League All-Star Game, which I only mention in 2001 when the game is played in Denver. I think I did this following what I've seen in the New Jersey Devils article. And then, there are the two NHL-All star teams elected after the end of the season electing the best two possible teams of 6 players; you could find examples of that in every seasons article: like 2005-06 NHL season#All-Star teams, for example. So, when I say that "Forsberg was elected to the league's first all-star team; Hejduk was elected to the second all-star team.", I'm talking about the latter, not the mid-season game.
  3. Will look for that.
  4. No, there were 9, including the injured Forsberg. 3 Canadians, 2 Czechs, 1 Finn, 1 Swiss, 1 Swede (injured Forsberg) and 1 American.
  5. I did find information here about the streak you are talking about. Sabres' streak only lasted 8 years and less games than the Avalanche. In terms of games, there's no doubt that the Avalanche streak was the longest and it is the official record. I will try to research if any team as a longer streak in terms of seasons. Thank you for your reply.--Serte [ Talk · Contrib ] 10:54, 13 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
3 is done and I've added mention that Forsberg was the leading scorer of the playoffs twice. Cross that out of the list. :-) Thanks--Serte [ Talk · Contrib ] 12:15, 13 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I remember the Sabres streak stopping when I was in high school. I am surprised it was fall of my Sophomore year. I also was under the mistaken belief that it was from the beginning of the franchise in fall of 1970 and not the actual start date of October 15, 1972. These two factors lengthened the streak by about 3 or 4 years in my mind. Good research.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 14:50, 17 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Also, what I meant is that I generally object to any article that does not have either a box score or a full game recap for each game that is notable enough to be mentioned specifically in an article. That is my general policy. I have never encountered a partial recap like you present, but would prefer a full recap.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 14:57, 17 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Can you please point me to an article with that, so I can see examples? Thanks.--Serte [ Talk · Contrib ] 16:25, 17 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose These minor fixes needed:
  • PDF sources need a "format=PDF" parameter in their citation template
  • According to Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Images, it is recommended not to specify the size of images. The sizes should be what readers have specified in their user preferences.
  • "Peter Forsberg and Adam Foote were lost to free agency in order to save some room" – the "in order" and the "some" are redundant
  • "Around the whole logo, there's a blue oval." – avoid contractions
  • "biggest spenders of the league" would be better as "highest spenders in the league"
  • "There are two black and white zigzag lines along the jersey" – sentences shouldn't start with "there" when the "there" doesn't stand for anything
  • "when the California deal soured due to financial and arena problems" - "due to" means "caused by", and therefore doesn't work well here
  • "Bertuzzi was away from professional hockey for 17 months due to suspensions." - "due to" doesn't work well here
  • "The 2004-05 NHL season was canceled due to an unresolved lockout" - "due to" doesn't work well here
  • "Ossi Vaananen]] ended up not playing due to an injury" - "due to"
  • "Due to the punch and the consequent fall" - "due to". Epbr123 11:53, 27 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I think all issues are solved. If you still feel they aren't or have any other suggestions, be my guest. Thanks for the contribution. I'm sorry for English mistakes, I try to do the best according to my knowledge.--Serte [ Talk · Contrib ] 19:45, 29 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. Dates such as 2007-03-13 are meant to have hyphens, not en dashes. Also, full dates in the footnotes should be wikilinked. "a 45-28-8-1 record" is meant to have en dashes. Epbr123 19:56, 29 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Done.--Serte [ Talk · Contrib ] 10:15, 31 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: I made some sample edits. There are still MOS errors and refs aren't formatted (example, Hockeydb.com, Colorado Avalanche season statistics and records ), see WP:CITE/ES. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:32, 3 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose—MOS issues and 1a. Needs work throughout.
    • I see "8" and then "seven" and then "5". Read "Spelling out numbers".
    • "1972–1995"—Read year ranges; you follow it in the main text (1987–88, etc). "1999–00"—no way. Slashes "2006/07" now allowed by MOS—see last section.
    • "After making the postseason for seven consecutive years"—"Making" is rather informal for this register, as is the metaphor "from 1981 to 1987, the Nordiques fell into the league's basement".
    • MOS: Title: "2001–Present"—what's wrong here? You tell me.
    • "Like in 1997"—Ouch! Tony 13:03, 4 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
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