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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Charles Green (Australian soldier)/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 28 February 2021 [1].

Charles Green (Australian soldier) edit

Nominator(s): Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:04, 9 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Green was the youngest Australian Army battalion commander during WWII, leading the 2/11th Battalion in the Aitape-Wewak campaign of 1945 after previous service in the Middle East and Greece. He is also the only commanding officer of a battalion of the post-WWII Royal Australian Regiment to have been killed on active service (in Korea). The foundations of this article were laid by retired Milhist coord AnotherClown some years ago, but I was prompted by the recent 70th anniversary of Green's death to bring it up to GA then Milhist ACR. Have at it. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:04, 9 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Image review edit

  • Some of the images are missing alt text
Added. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:01, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:Coad_and_Green.jpg needs publication info and a US tag
Must have missed that one, actually PD-AustraliaGov. Swapped. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:01, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:Green_prior_to_the_capture_of_Pakchon_Oct_1950.PNG: does the source provide any more detail on provenance? Nikkimaria (talk) 01:43, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
G'day Nikkimaria, thanks for taking a look. See above. Presumably an official photographer accompanying the US officer in the photo, but I don't have a copy of Bartlett, Norman, ed. (1960). With the Australians in Korea (3rd ed.) to hand to check the page number and caption. Just pinging some likely holders of a copy, @Hawkeye7, Nick-D, AustralianRupert, and Ian Rose:. Otherwise I'll have to pop down to the uni library and take another look. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:01, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I'm afraid that I don't have a copy. Nick-D (talk) 04:14, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
G'day, PM, unfortunately, I am away from home for a bit so I don't have access to my books at the moment -- I will see if I can get my wife to check, though, or I might be able to get in touch with AC who uploaded it. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 04:26, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Bartlett cites it specifically as a "U.S. Army photograph" on the image plates between pages 14 and 15 in the source book. I have added this to the description page now. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 05:02, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks very much, AustralianRupert, and whoever provided that info! Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:24, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Gog the Mild edit

Recusing to review. Gog the Mild (talk) 16:01, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • "from the battalion main body". Marginally clunky. 'from the main body of the battalion'?
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:42, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Green took over command of the 2/11th Battalion in New Guinea which he commanded for several months". Possibly tweak the phrasing?
Hopefully better now? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:42, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "so the battalion did not see action until mid-April. Green and the rest of the 2/2nd Battalion saw action". "... see action ... saw action ..." Optional: a synonym for one?
changed to "did not fight". Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:42, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "a hazardous journey through the Aegean Islands, through Turkey". "through ... through".
varied. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:42, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Green himself reached the island of Euboea in the Aegean on 7 May, where he met several other members of the battalion, then to the island of Skyro". "then to the island of Skyro" isn't a grammatical fit. Maybe 'who then travelled together to the island of Skyro' or similar?
Yes, fixed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:42, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • a "sensitive account". The MoS says of quotations "[t]he source must be named in article text if the quotation is an opinion" (emphasis in original).
As Barter doesn't have an article, I've just ascribed this to his entry in the ADB. Does that work? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:42, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "they were willing to follow him anywhere". Optional: I don't doubt it, but it comes across a bit cliched, even trite.
Substituted a quote from the ADB, which gives me my first opportunity to insert the Australian term "fair dinkum" into an article. Does that work? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:42, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Excellent! Or even dinkum.
  • "at the age of only 25 he was the youngest Australian battalion commander during the war". Why is this part of a sentence about his promotion, rather than his taking command of the battalion.
Yes, out of place. Moved. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:42, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "killed three Japanese that stumbled into their perimeter". "that" → 'who'.
Fixed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:42, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "it was only 552 strong". Maybe give the full and/or original strength? As you do for riflemen.
Dug the figure out of the war diary. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:08, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "were constantly interdicted by the Japanese early on". I realise that you are just summarising the citation, but constant interdiction and interdiction early on seem to be different things.
Reworded. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:03, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Green was chosen and left Australia for Japan on 8 September,[1] and took over command of 3 RAR on 12 September." I don't think that you can have "and" twice here.
split sentence. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:03, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "only two weeks further training in Japan". Training for Green or training for 3RAR?
the battalion, added. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:03, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and over that and the following day". "over" → 'during'.
done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:03, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "After mopping up, 3 RAR had suffered seven wounded". That's not grammatical.
reworded. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:03, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "its first fatal casualties of the war". Optional: "fatal casualties" → 'fatalities'.
done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:03, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "on a thickly-wooded ridgeline around the town". It's not impossible, but it is unusual for a ridgeline to be around a town.
fixed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:03, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "following artillery preparation" is verging on jargon, and a little euphemistic. Maybe just 'an artillery bombardment'?
done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:03, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and despite heavy fire" → 'and despite heavy enemy fire'.
added. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:03, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "following preparatory fire". → 'following preparatory artillery fire. (I assume that was the case?)
yes, done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:03, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "nine killed and 30 wounded". "nine" → '9'.
done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:03, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "cast a pall of gloom over his battalion". Needs in line attribution, see above.
done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:03, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • had been "exemplary". And again.
done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:03, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note a: why the "probably"? Australian War Memorial unequivocally states that he was.
I don't know why Barter says "probably", she is in the minority, so that's why I have stated that he was in the body and included her minority view in the note. Annoyingly, when it ran at DYK, someone insisted on Barter's wording rather than what is the consensus position. I've also changed the mentions of the ADB to Barter. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:03, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Class! (I had only previously come across mention of Green and 3RAR in the autobiography of David Wilson, CO commanding a company of 1ASHR which was also in 27th Brigade. It was a pleasure to read a full account of his career.) Gog the Mild (talk) 19:14, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Gog, all done I reckon. See what you think? Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:03, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I think that even by your standards this is a top article. Gog the Mild (talk) 12:36, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, you are very kind. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:42, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by JennyOz edit

Placeholder, just a note to say I hope to review this in next day or so. JennyOz (talk) 15:53, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hello PM, only a few comments. I was going to do a couple of the very minor changes but another editor made some changes whilst I was reviewing. My review is on article version before those...

No, an oversight. Fixed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:31, 30 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • The 2/2nd Battalion returned to Australia in August 1942 via Ceylon (modern Sri Lanka), to fight the Japanese. - this sounds like the Japanese were in Australia? (I know Darwin was Feb 1942 but eg 6th Div article says "returned to Australia to meet the threat of Japan's entry into the war.")
Reworded. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:31, 30 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Evacuated to hospital, he died of his wounds on - no need for "of his wounds" per prev sentence?
Sure, deleted. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:31, 30 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • and was subsequently posthumously - remove subsequently (one of those words to avoid?)
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:31, 30 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Grafton on the north coast - Grafton is not actually on coast, is 30 mins inland. Maybe north eastern nsw?
Sure, done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:31, 30 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • He was subsequently posted - another subsequently
Deleted. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:31, 30 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • The 2/2nd Battalion was deployed to the Middle East in - as above, ME wlink intentional?
linked. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:31, 30 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • but the Allied armies withdrew - wlink Allied
done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:31, 30 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Green himself reached the island - "himself" not needed?
deleted. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:31, 30 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Australia to fight the Japanese. - per my comment on lede. I suppose when heading home they did not know where the Japanese would be?
fixed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:31, 30 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • During the latter, he was described - not sure what "the latter" means here. The latter month ie November?
the course, fixed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:31, 30 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • The battalion had landed at Aitape on 13 November to take - probably needs 1944 here
Added. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:31, 30 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • culminating in the capture of the 710 feature on 15 May - what is 710 feature, a map feature?
Yes, an elevation, the highest contour line of which was marked 710 (feet). Terrible military jargon, sorry... Replace with "a hill"... Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:42, 2 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • The citation highlighted... ; that the interdiction of the battalion's supply lines by the Japanese early in the campaign; - I don't understand this clause, maybe "that" needs to go?
the earlier part of the sentence preceding the list ends with "...highlighted:" so, isn't "that" necessary to continue from "highlighted:"? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:42, 2 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm, sorry PM, I'm still having trouble here. The other clauses don't use a "that". I can't see the source though it's apparent what it says. I've tried 2 ways to visualise it differently (definitely not suggesting changing to these), to try to see where I was getting muddled.
1) pretending the other clauses don't exist...
The citation highlighted that the interdiction of the battalion's supply lines by the Japanese early in the campaign.
2) reading them as a list...
The citation highlighted:
  • the challenging terrain and conditions throughout the campaign;
  • that the interdiction of the battalion's supply lines by the Japanese early in the campaign;
  • the particularly stiff and determined enemy resistance and considerable casualties;
  • Green's deft handling of his logistics;
  • his outstanding leadership which helped him maintain morale and efficiency within the battalion;
  • and the fact that all objectives assigned to the unit during the campaign were achieved.
(If it said: "that the battalion's supply lines were interdicted by the Japanese early in the campaign" I can see that "that" belongs)
Anyway, it is such a minor thing I won't bother you anymore over this.:) JennyOz (talk) 11:51, 2 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I must be blind... Thanks for pulling the teeth. Fixed I think. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:33, 3 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Bewdiful! JennyOz (talk) 05:14, 3 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Better now? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:42, 2 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • airlifted by the United States Air Force from Taegu to - add (USAF)
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:42, 2 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • so quiet in his manner... he inspired - tweak ellipsis
Fixed I think. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:42, 2 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • a thickly-wooded ridgeline - hmm usually no hyphens on such adverbs but reads fine to me
hyphen removed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:42, 2 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • A series of airstrikes were called in - "a series" is singular so 'was' called in?
Fixed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:42, 2 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • had been "exemplary",[1], and - remove comma
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:42, 2 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • A commemorative cairn was erected - wlink cairn
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:42, 2 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • DSO - The Post World War II section has 4 March but Notes say 6 March. (Gazette pubn date is 4 March but supplement page is dated 6 March and head column says War Office, 6th March. Nat Archives says "Date of announcement in London Gazette: 06 March 1947") So... settle on 6?
Done Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:42, 2 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Korean war section - there is only one mention of Green in there. Is there any way to insert it more eg 'Green's brigade' or 'Green led' or similar?
  • Battle of Broken Bridge - as above in last para
Have beefed up the mentions of Green in the Korean war section. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:42, 2 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • consistency - modern-day v modern day v modern
Fixed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:42, 2 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Books: Forbes, Cameron - alpha order
Fixed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:42, 2 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That's it. Another comprehensive bio thanks. JennyOz (talk) 06:59, 26 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks so much for your review, Jenny. I always get a lot out of them. Regards, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:42, 2 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, and I get a lot from reading them. I've tried to explain my parsing problem with his DSO citation above but it's not stopping me from very happily adding my Support. Regards, JennyOz (talk) 11:51, 2 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Source review edit

Spotchecks not done

  • The lead says he died the day after being wounded, the text says two days - which is correct?
Yes, the body. I can't count... Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:41, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "his career remains an inspiration to serving Australian soldiers" - text supports that this was the case as of 1996, but that was quite a while ago now. Anything more recent to say this is still true?
tweaked this in the lead to reflect its age. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:41, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Out in the Cold does have a date that could be included
It says 2009, which is the first year the webpage was captured by web archive, but given it was an AWM webpage, I think that is enough. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:41, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • FN70: is there any other source confirming this detail? Nikkimaria (talk) 18:19, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think it is controversial. Cameron Forbes' The Korean War, p. 231, states that he was buried in the Christian churchyard at Pakchon on 1 November, see this. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:41, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Would suggest citing that source instead. Nikkimaria (talk) 17:29, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, added. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 22:08, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for taking a look, Nikkimaria. Let me know if you think anything else is needed? Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:41, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

HF edit

Might claim for WikiCup points. I already looked at this at ACR, so I may not find much. Hog Farm Talk 20:22, 31 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • " Australian Army infantry battalion" - A bit nitpicky, but this is a minor MOS:SEAOFBLUE issue. I don't know that it's avoidable without introducing an awkward phrasing, so feel free to ignore this one.
Not sure much can be done with this one other than unlinking something. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:46, 2 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • " during the Battle of the Apple Orchard, Battle of the Broken Bridge" - "..., the Battle of the Broken Bridge"
Fixed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:46, 2 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He is considered one of the Australian Army's better unit-level commanders," - which suggests that this is a still-current scholarly consensus, but in the body this is attributed to three combat officers. I don't doubt that the subject was an excellent unit-level commander, but the impression given in the lead doesn't quite match with the attribution, IMO.
Good point, fixed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:07, 2 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "understood them and they understood he was fair dinkum (authentic)" - This may just be me being taught a different writing style than yours, so ignore this if that's the case, but I thought interpolations like authentic here went into square brackets to demonstrate that they are interpolations and not found in the quoted source material.
Fixed I think. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:07, 2 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • " the battalion lost 20 killed, and 29 wounded and killed 118 Japanese" - Are you sure there should be a comma after killed? I'm not certain either way.
Yes, wrong spot. Fixed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:07, 2 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "culminating in capturing the 710 feature on 15 May " - Is it possible to be a little more specific with what kind of feature the 710 feature was? Like a bunker or a hill or a fortification?
Fixed from Jenny's review. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:07, 2 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "culminating in capturing the 710 feature on 15 May " - Is it possible to be a little more specific with what kind of feature the 710 feature was? Like a bunker or a hill or a fortification?
    Hog, most geographic features do not have names, but they often have spot heights marked on the map. (In this case it would be in feet; 710' is about 216 m.) So we often refer to them by the spot heights. Actually, they were lucky to have maps with spot heights, largely due to the work of the Allied Geographical Section. Most wartime maps of New Guinea had no contours, but indicated the lie of the land with cross hatching. When I looked at the maps used in the 1943 Wau-Salamaua campaign, many did not even that, and were just blank (although usefully coloured green). Hawkeye7 (discuss) 09:02, 2 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed from Jenny's review. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:07, 2 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This one's in very good shape. Hog Farm Talk 05:20, 1 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for running your eye over it, HF. All done I reckon. Regards, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:07, 2 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Supporting on criteria 1a, 1b, 1c, 1d, 1e, 2a, 2b, 2c, and 4, I did not check against criteria 3. Hog Farm Talk 03:44, 3 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hawkeye7 edit

Like Hog Farm, I believe that this article is in great shape, and should be promoted. I have a few minor comments:

  • Consider putting Aitape-Wewak campaign in the infobox instead of "South West Pacific theatre" (technically incorrect, as SWPA was part of the Pacific theatre)
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:26, 2 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • The abbreviation USAF is undefined
Fixed in Jenny's review. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:26, 2 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not sure what the footnote (a) is about. Margaret Barter wrote her PhD on the 2/2nd Battalion, and what she meant is that she hadn't checked all the records. However Garth Pratten wrote his PhD on the Australian battalion commanders of the Second World War and he did just that. In his book Australian Battalion Commanders in the Second World War (pp. 238-239) you can find the unequivocal statement that "the youngest Australian CO of the Second World War was Charles 'Charlie' Green." He also notes the runners up on p. 381: J. de M. Carstairs (22 Bn, age 29), W. M. Mayberry (58/59th Bn, age 29), P. M. Shanahan (55/53rd Bn, age 27) and H. G. Sweet (11th B, age 29). Suggest using that.
OK, I was just indicating that there was some equivocation by Barter (which if source verification was conducted could have been picked up by a reviewer), but I take your point that far greater weight should be given to Pratten as a specialist on WWII COs. Removed note. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:26, 2 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:44, 1 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

All done, thanks Hawkeye7! Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:26, 2 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Hawkeye, did you have anything to add? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 12:06, 13 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
No. Support. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 18:32, 13 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@FAC coordinators: this looks good to go, with Jenny as a non-Milhist reviewer. Can I have dispensation for a fresh nom please? Thanks, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 21:57, 27 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You may. Gog the Mild (talk) 22:48, 27 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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