Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons/archive1
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by Karanacs 02:08, 15 July 2010 [1].
Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons edit
Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
| Toolbox |
|---|
I submit this article for FAC since it offers a comprehensive treatment of all major aspects of this particular 1960s sci-fi TV series. In the course of approximately the last nine months I have worked to raise its standard from B-Class to Good Article. I respectfully await comments from other editors. SuperMarioMan 01:39, 25 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Support - comprehensive and well-referenced, probably the definitive resource about the series on the web. Bob talk 08:59, 25 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sources comments: Sources look OK, well presented. A couple of small issues:-
- Most of the Notes are do not carry references.
While this is unimportant for such as 3 or 10, others, such as 7 and 9, would appear to need citation.
- Being in-universe detail, the statements made in 7 and 9 have been sourced to relevant episodes within the text. SuperMarioMan 12:20, 25 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Publisher location missing form Bould book (Lexington?)
Brianboulton (talk) 11:16, 25 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. Love the show :) Seriously, now. The article seems quite comprehensive and well written. Few nitpicks: 1) Items referenced to primary sources - is this ok? I thought we don't allow that type of original research (unfortunately, because I really like what was done with the article). 2) "In 1968, Captain Scarlet was also screened abroad in more than 40 countries, including Canada, Australia, New Zealand and Japan" - any chance we can get the full list of those 40+ countries? 3) Can we have a fair use image of Captain Black? 4) Have the copyright holders been contacted and asked to release some media under a free license for us to use? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 12:56, 25 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for the support! On the issue of primary sources, I can't tell that there is any problem with the article referencing episodes for its plot section (at least, I think). I have observed similar citation on other FA-Class TV articles such as this one, in which the character development section includes statements sourced to individual episodes. Importantly, the episode citations are for descriptive rather than interpretive content, which I think is the distinction between proper and improper use of primary sources. Regarding overseas broadcasts, unfortunately the source material does not say any more than what is already stated in the article. Furthermore, listing all nations in which the series has been broadcast may fall within the definition of indiscriminate information which is of little encyclopaedic value. On the appearance of Captain Black, there is this fair-use image present in the character article. Finally, are there any particular images (either present in the article, or ideas for images) to which you are referring in your fourth point? Thanks. SuperMarioMan 15:45, 25 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Captain Black also makes a small appearance on the DVD cover on this page (albeit with his pre-Mysteron "non evil" face!) Bob talk 15:59, 25 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- A better image than the one currently uploaded (linked above) would be a side-by-side comparison of the character's appearance both before and after his "Mysteronisation". It is rather difficult to explain in words the extent to which his face changes in the pilot episode, so such an image would, in my view, meet fair-use criteria. Again, however, since the character's appearance will always require a non-free image for illustration, I think that it would be straining guidelines to include a Black image in the main series article. SuperMarioMan 16:10, 26 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Captain Black also makes a small appearance on the DVD cover on this page (albeit with his pre-Mysteron "non evil" face!) Bob talk 15:59, 25 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Media With the exception of the score, none of the non-free components are plausible, please review and resubmit, but oppose for now Fasach Nua (talk) 20:10, 25 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Could you clarify this statement a little bit, please? Bob talk 07:39, 26 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The images used are unchanged from a GA review in February, and no concerns were raised on the subject then. Among the non-free media, the title screenshot in the infobox would seem to be vital for basic identification of the article's subject, and the image in the "Casting and characters" section has merit, I feel, since it portrays much of the regular cast within one frame (it also demonstrates the realism and natural proportions of the puppets in Captain Scarlet, so indirectly complements the "Puppets" section). SuperMarioMan 16:10, 26 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Tentative support (only tentative because I'm not an experienced FAC reviewer, but it's well-written and I can't see any major problems.) One comment: in the References section you have a lot of non-print sources in italics (eg. website names) that per WP:ITALICS shouldn't be. Eg. tvcentury21.com, teletronic.co.uk, televisionheaven.co.uk, imagedissectors.com, BBC Online, MusicBrainz, toonhound.com, mjsimpson.co.uk, thevervoid.com, amb-cotedazur.com, spectrum-headquarters.com, BFI Screenonline, radiotimes.com, blast-games.com, Allmovie, BBC News Online.--BelovedFreak 18:46, 29 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Can you please ask another image reviewer to take a look as we seem to have a difference of opinion? Karanacs (talk) 15:32, 2 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment on images. While I'm not one of the usual "go-to" editors for cast-iron image advice, I've taken enough media (film, in my case) articles through FAC that I feel competent enough to offer opinion on the non-free content here. Steve T • C
- File:Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons.jpg. Title card for the infobox, allowed per precedent. Current project consensus on "identification" work—such as album covers, DVD box covers, theatrical posters or title cards—does come down on the side of allowing non-free images for identification of the subject where a free version is unavailable. Wider community consultation is probably needed to overturn that seeming consensus; as such, individual FACs are not the best place to have the discussion.
- However, that does mean that I see no valid reason for the second identifying image, File:CaptainScarletDVD.jpg, which is a scan of the DVD cover. It accompanies the section on the video and DVD release, sure, but without critical commentary of the cover itself (its design or similar) in a way that means its omission would be detrimental to the reader's understanding of the topic ... it's redundant and should be removed.
- For File:Spectrum motif.png and File:Mysteron motif.png, I agree with Fasach Nua's opinion that they have plausible rationales. They're tagged appropriately and the critical commentary is extensive. No issues for me, though I wonder if the nominator feels an audio clip would better serve to demonstrate one (or both) of these?
- File:CaptainScarletPuppetCast.jpg. The rationale is weak for the specified primary purpose, the equivalent to the generic "cast photo" in live action productions to "illustrate [the regular characters]", which are usually frowned upon without specific commentary about their look. The secondary purpose, that of "[offering] a glimpse at some of the design elements of the Cloudbase", is better, but the link between the text and specific elements of image is not strong enough to justify its inclusion on that rationale alone. I think you'll get the most traction if you can tie the image to specific design elements of the puppets (which are the image's focus) rather than the background. Although for that purpose, a close-up shot (or even a video clip showing motion) of one of the characters might work better.
- If you want another opinion, I recommend either David Fuchs or Jappalang, both of whom are experienced FAC image reviewers who have crafted media-related featured articles. All the best, Steve T • C 10:48, 5 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for the review. I've removed the DVD cover, as I think that was left over from being the infobox image a while back. I do think the puppet cast one is sortof justified, as the design and look of the puppets is referred to quite extensively elsewhere in the article, and it would be a bit odd not to give at least some idea of what they look like to an unfamiliar reader. Would it help if it had a caption drawing attention to the design aspect? (I suppose this image "kills two birds with one stone" to a certain extent, doubling as a sort of "cast photo".) Bob talk 12:54, 5 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I do agree that some kind of image of the puppets would be useful; were they mere continuations of Anderson's previous style, that would be harder to justify, but for Captain Scarlet they were different enough that we should be able to swing it. However, the rationale as written gives the "cast photo" reasoning prominence and then makes vague reference to the design of Cloudbase without tying in specific elements of the chosen image to article text. For example, File:S02-spock's funeral.png is also a cast image, and while I reckon that image's rationale could stand to be beefed up too, it does provide three equally-plausible rationales based on specific elements of the photo. If you can look through your text for cited commentary on either the puppets' or Cloudbase's design, commentary that can be directly referenced as part of the rationale on the image page and seen in specific elements in the screenshot, that would go some way to justifying its inclusion. Personally, I think a close-up shot of one or more of the characters might be better for this purpose, though I suppose it all depends on what can be cited. Steve T • C 13:35, 5 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Oh, and sorry for getting on my soapbox here, but I do want to re-iterate that I think there's definitely scope for a fair-use video clip, possibly based on the difficulties the crew had with the characters' movements and the concessions they had to make to accommodate the smaller heads—something that shows these motions in particular. Someone unfamiliar with the show, and Supermarionation in particular, may find it difficult to visualise these aspects. As an added bonus, the clip would triple-up to illustrate everything the existing image does and its rationale will be bolstered as a result ("maximum utility"—several birds with one stone—I think is the key phrase here, as seen with File:American Beauty gymnasium.ogv or File:Changeling closing sequence.png). If you go this route, see Wikipedia:FILMCLIP#Video samples for help with encoding and uploading. Or give me a shout. :-) Steve T • C 13:37, 5 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I do agree that some kind of image of the puppets would be useful; were they mere continuations of Anderson's previous style, that would be harder to justify, but for Captain Scarlet they were different enough that we should be able to swing it. However, the rationale as written gives the "cast photo" reasoning prominence and then makes vague reference to the design of Cloudbase without tying in specific elements of the chosen image to article text. For example, File:S02-spock's funeral.png is also a cast image, and while I reckon that image's rationale could stand to be beefed up too, it does provide three equally-plausible rationales based on specific elements of the photo. If you can look through your text for cited commentary on either the puppets' or Cloudbase's design, commentary that can be directly referenced as part of the rationale on the image page and seen in specific elements in the screenshot, that would go some way to justifying its inclusion. Personally, I think a close-up shot of one or more of the characters might be better for this purpose, though I suppose it all depends on what can be cited. Steve T • C 13:35, 5 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Images
As nominator, sorry for being late in on all this. Steve, after reviewing the situation with the non-free media, I feel that I can endorse your comments. This is my understanding on the infobox and DVD images: the legitimacy of the infobox image could be brought into question, but it is standard to maintain a title screen image for identification, making File:Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons.jpg rather unactionable within the framework of this FAC and a case for "default Keep". On the other hand, File:CaptainScarletDVD.jpg has not served much meaningful purpose as a secondary (and unnecessary) identification image. It occupied the infobox for about five years, and after Bob uploaded the title screenshot it was demoted to the "Video and DVD" section where it seemed most relevant, but nevertheless it has remained mainly illustrative and has therefore been (rightly) removed.
So, the questions of those two media appear to be resolved. Moving on, I am ambivalent on the potential for replacing File:Spectrum motif.png and File:Mysteron motif.png with audio files. In the present situation, the notation greatly supports the commentary provided in the "Music" section, but perhaps actual sound recordings would indeed go further to demonstrate the militaristic feel of the Spectrum theme and the parallels between the Scarlet and Mysteron themes? I suppose the question boils down to the individual reader and their knowledge of, and sensitivity to, the scoring of music. The current graphics (uploaded by Bob) benefit the article, and an audio updating would be equally beneficial.
If File:CaptainScarletPuppetCast.jpg is to remain, I would suggest that the "Puppets" section may be a more appropriate location for it. With the DVD cover (which presented some character faces) now removed from the article, this image would need to remain unchanged in its capacity for depicting of one or more puppet characters in the event of an update or video substitution. I am grateful to Bob for amending the image caption to strengthen its justification, but to be honest I am leaning more in favour of Steve's closing recommendation about finding a relevant video sample and therefore solving a number of problems with one upload. As to what kind of sequence would best demonstrate both the appearance of the puppets and the difficulties of moving them, I am unsure. Furthermore, I have never dealt with video or audio in my time at Wikipedia, and probably do not have the necessary software to upload either as fair-use extracts, but I'll make efforts to work on the perfectly valid points that Steve has raised. SuperMarioMan 19:26, 5 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- If it's necessary, I endorse Steve's comments. I've done two cast images, if I recall—in addition to the cast image from The Wrath of Khan, I used one in Star Trek: The Motion Picture—File:St1-cast publicity shot.png. While they illustrate the cast, the main reason they are used (commenting on uniforms, set design, etc.) is secondary to identification of characters. In general, character identification is not a strong enough reason alone to include a non-free image (especially if they can be suitably replaced by a free image of the actor). Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 00:59, 6 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- With those examples from Star Trek in mind, it does seem justifiable to keep the puppet cast image, as illustrating the 'cast' and the puppets/production design, as noted in the image caption. As they're puppets from a 1960s TV series, it's not going to be possible to recreate this or find a free image,
(although this image on Flickr of an original (I assume) Scarlet puppet is under a CC Attribution licence, so could be uploaded here.Bob talk 13:51, 6 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]- Unfortunately, was under the "non commercial use" CC licence. Bob talk 14:04, 6 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- OK, I now think I have a candidate .ogg file which would fulfil the purposes of the current image to greater effect. It is about one minute in length and demonstrates a fair amount of puppet movement, supporting the text of the third paragraph of the "Puppets" section. In particular, it offers examples of the kind of close-up head shots that had to be used whenever a character was depicted in motion and/or going through a doorway (see third paragraph and following blockquote). Featuring five of the regular cast, the clip doubles up as a partial cast photo and importantly contains the appearance and voice of the Scarlet character himself (which is the subject of discussion in the likenesses subsection). Since the extract offers visualisation of a number of different aspects as highlighted above, it would represent a considerable improvement on File:CaptainScarletPuppetCast.jpg regarding usefulness to the reader. SuperMarioMan 18:51, 6 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- (Reposted from here, with amendments). You've identified a 60-second clip, but the length largely depends on whether that full minute is really required to show everything you want it to. Generally speaking, 30 seconds is considered the upper limit (though there have been exceptions), so you'd have to have a very good rationale if you wanted to exceed that. Even then, if the consensus is that everything you need to show is covered by just 15 seconds, that's the maximum you'd be able to use. Still, there's absolutely no harm in just uploading the clip "as is" with the rationale you have in mind. Stick it in the article and then we can take a look at it in its proper context. The absolute worst that can happen is that it has to be removed and perhaps replaced with a shorter clip; no one is going to hold it against you. All the best, Steve T • C 07:48, 7 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- It's uploaded. What do people think of this? SuperMarioMan 20:36, 7 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Sorry for taking so long to get back to you. I think that's a fine choice of clip, excellent even. I have only one worry, and that's over the length. The non-free content criteria includes a "minimal extent of use" clause. As it applies here, it would mean that you would not be able to use the full 60 seconds if only a portion of that will suffice to convey the intended effect. We're still breaking new ground as far as fair use video clips are concerned, but for audio files, it's quite rare that anything above 30 seconds is accepted without a damn good reason. The aforementioned American Beauty clip, for example, only gets by because of the critical commentary about the musical sequence's beginning and end. I think you should look at it closely to see if there is the possibility that only a portion would do. If you still think the full clip is necessary, that's fair enough too, just be prepared to be able to justify it if you're asked. For me, if I were doing a full review of the article, I wouldn't let the length of the clip prevent my supporting the nomination; others' mileage may vary. Good luck. Steve T • C 08:08, 12 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Steve, thanks for all your assistance with this, and I have removed File:CaptainScarletPuppetCast.jpg from the article. SuperMarioMan 22:13, 12 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Sorry for taking so long to get back to you. I think that's a fine choice of clip, excellent even. I have only one worry, and that's over the length. The non-free content criteria includes a "minimal extent of use" clause. As it applies here, it would mean that you would not be able to use the full 60 seconds if only a portion of that will suffice to convey the intended effect. We're still breaking new ground as far as fair use video clips are concerned, but for audio files, it's quite rare that anything above 30 seconds is accepted without a damn good reason. The aforementioned American Beauty clip, for example, only gets by because of the critical commentary about the musical sequence's beginning and end. I think you should look at it closely to see if there is the possibility that only a portion would do. If you still think the full clip is necessary, that's fair enough too, just be prepared to be able to justify it if you're asked. For me, if I were doing a full review of the article, I wouldn't let the length of the clip prevent my supporting the nomination; others' mileage may vary. Good luck. Steve T • C 08:08, 12 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- It's uploaded. What do people think of this? SuperMarioMan 20:36, 7 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- (Reposted from here, with amendments). You've identified a 60-second clip, but the length largely depends on whether that full minute is really required to show everything you want it to. Generally speaking, 30 seconds is considered the upper limit (though there have been exceptions), so you'd have to have a very good rationale if you wanted to exceed that. Even then, if the consensus is that everything you need to show is covered by just 15 seconds, that's the maximum you'd be able to use. Still, there's absolutely no harm in just uploading the clip "as is" with the rationale you have in mind. Stick it in the article and then we can take a look at it in its proper context. The absolute worst that can happen is that it has to be removed and perhaps replaced with a shorter clip; no one is going to hold it against you. All the best, Steve T • C 07:48, 7 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- OK, I now think I have a candidate .ogg file which would fulfil the purposes of the current image to greater effect. It is about one minute in length and demonstrates a fair amount of puppet movement, supporting the text of the third paragraph of the "Puppets" section. In particular, it offers examples of the kind of close-up head shots that had to be used whenever a character was depicted in motion and/or going through a doorway (see third paragraph and following blockquote). Featuring five of the regular cast, the clip doubles up as a partial cast photo and importantly contains the appearance and voice of the Scarlet character himself (which is the subject of discussion in the likenesses subsection). Since the extract offers visualisation of a number of different aspects as highlighted above, it would represent a considerable improvement on File:CaptainScarletPuppetCast.jpg regarding usefulness to the reader. SuperMarioMan 18:51, 6 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Unfortunately, was under the "non commercial use" CC licence. Bob talk 14:04, 6 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- With those examples from Star Trek in mind, it does seem justifiable to keep the puppet cast image, as illustrating the 'cast' and the puppets/production design, as noted in the image caption. As they're puppets from a 1960s TV series, it's not going to be possible to recreate this or find a free image,
- Support A very well-referenced article. A fine example of ho wto write about popular culture. Unsure about the short subsections in 'Later productions', which looks a little fragmented with those subheadings, but that might just be me being picky considering the other benefits that this article has for the reader. The JPStalk to me
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.