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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/C. O. Brocato/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by FrB.TG via FACBot (talk) 26 October 2023 [1].

C. O. Brocato edit

Nominator(s): BeanieFan11 (talk) 16:04, 26 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

With my first featured article nomination out of 850 articles created, may I present to you C. O. Brocato. I first found out about Brocato last June when I noticed he was one of the candidates for the Pro Football Hall of Fame and saw he did not have an article. This was one of my favorites to write and I believe it is one of my best works. A little bit about Brocato:

From Louisiana, Brocato attended St. John's High School and was the football team captain while playing fullback and placekicker. After graduating from St. John's, he attended Baylor University and became known as one of the best placekickers under pressure in the U.S. (while receiving the nickname "The Foot" ) for his making of several game-winning kicks which helped lead Baylor to their first major bowl game. He was chosen in the National Football League Draft after his college career but was considered too small and opted to enter coaching instead of trying to make a team.

After assisting the Haynesville High School team for a time he was named head coach at St. John's High School, where he had graduated from. He led them to several championships and some of the best teams in school history; in his third year, he led them to their first winning season since he had captained them as a player — which was featured as a WP:DYK hook. Following his time at St. John's (renamed to Jesuit during his stint there), Brocato coached college football as an assistant with the Northern Arizona Lumberjacks and Texas–Arlington Mavericks before resigning in 1973 to enter the scouting ranks, which he was best known for.

Brocato was a scout from 1974 until his death at 85 in 2015 – all but four of those years with the Houston Oilers / Tennessee Oilers / Titans. He became regarded as one of the greatest scouts in football history for his extensive research on every player and for his mentoring of many others in the field. He drove across the country and added around 20,000 miles (32,000 km) per year to his car to do his research on NFL prospects – even going into his 70s. He also invented several NFL Scouting Combine events, including the three-cone drill – which is considered a key test for players nowadays. He was responsible for the Oilers / Titans' drafting of four Pro Football Hall of Fame players – including Earl Campbell, one of the best players of all time – and many of those whom Brocato worked with have advocated for his induction into the Hall of Fame as well. He has been a candidate for the hall on several occasions and was a semifinalist the past two years; the NFL also recently named an award in his honor, given to those who have "dedicated a lifetime of service to the scouting community".

I have had several users with FA experience review the article, including Gonzo fan2007 (who also reviewed it for DYK and WP:GA), Cbl62 and PCN02WPS. Also note that I intend on using this for the WikiCup, so I would appreciate if this could be finished by the end of October. Thanks, BeanieFan11 (talk) 16:04, 26 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

First-time nomination edit

  • Hi BeanieFan11, and welcome to FAC. Just noting that as a first time nominator at FAC, this article will need to pass a source to text integrity spot check and a review for over-close paraphrasing to be considered for promotion. Good luck with the nomination. Gog the Mild (talk) 16:42, 26 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It is done here and you don't need to do anything other than respond to any points raised as and when it happens. Gog the Mild (talk) 16:48, 26 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

PCN02WPS edit

Gonzo_fan2007 edit

Resolved Comments by Gonzo_fan2007
*Scout (sport) should be linked in the lead and the body of the article.
    • Done.
  • In the first sentence, his work as a scout and coach just take pre-eminence over his brief playing career. Per MOS:BIOFIRSTSENTENCE, we should try to get his nationality in the lead. Recommend rewriting to Cosimo O. Brocato Jr. (October 31, 1929 – September 1, 2015) was an American scout, coach and football player
    • Done.
  • The Houston / Tennessee Oilers / Titans part is confusing. I would just change to the Tennessee Titans or add a note explanation that the team changed locations and names during his tenure.
    • Note added.
  • In the lead, you use the acronym NFL in the first paragraph (as part of 1953 NFL draft) but then define it in the second paragraph. You just define the acronym once and then use the acronym the rest of the way (MOS:ACRO).
    • Done, I think?
  • I know later on in the article you discuss who considers him "one of the greatest scouts in football history", but it would be nice to touch on that in the league such as His colleagues considered him one of...
    • Done.
  • Texas Longhorn football is linked twice in the body of the article.
    • Fixed.
  • standout comes across as a bit of a weasel word. Either delete or reword. The second sentence makes it known that he was successful during his high school playing career.
    • Deleted.
  • Versus Arkansas in their third game, recommend "Against" instead of "Versus" as a more natural beginning to a sentence.
    • Done.
  • crucial match-up, "match-up" isn't the word generally used in American football. Recommend just "game".
    • Done.
  • He later missed all three against Texas, but rebounded by a six-for-six showing against Wake Forest, for clarity, I would recommend adding "extra points" after "three"
    • Done.
  • Bowl game should be linked
    • Done.
  • while playing on defense, remove "on"
    • Done.
  • He was also a baseball player at Baylor, being a backup catcher to Larry Isbell.[21] He additionally was a boxer during his time at the school and competed at several local Golden Gloves tournaments. sounds clunky with "also" and "additionally". Can you say something like "In addition to college football, Brocato played baseball and was a boxer. He was the backup catcher to Larry Isbell for the baseball team and completed in several Golden Glove tournaments as a boxer." Or something like that?
    • Done.
  • He signed his first contract on May 5, combine with the previous sentence.
    • Done.
  • He used the Winged-T offense probably worthy of saying "Brocato" again.
    • Done.
  • They then won five straight games to finish the season, the use of "then" after the previous sentence would make it appear that they won six total games. I would delete "then".
    • Done.
  • Brocato would add over 20,000 miles to his vehicle every year – even going into his 70s – to scout players, watching them in practice, in games, at pro days and at the NFL Scouting Combine, then interviewing coaches, trainers, team staff and family members, after which he would watch more film of the player, sort of a run-on sentence, recommend splitting into two.
    • Done.
  • Moment of silence is probably an overlink at this point. The English words "moment" and "silence" are clear enough to convey the meaning without a hyperlink and this topic isn't essential to understand Brocato.
    • De-linked.
  • There were suggestions to coach George Sauer that he find a new person, who made these suggestions? And recommend clarifying what you mean by "person"? Someone off the street, or another teammate?
    • The source (same as above) says "And no placement kicker had a poorer beginning In the Bears' 1951 opener with University of Houston, Brocato tried two, missed two. His efforts resembled the type of kicks you'd expect from a 10-year-old kid on the corner lot. Baylor won 19-0 with soph Jimmy Davenport kicking the only extra point. Sidewalk quarterbacks suggested that Coach George Sauer find himself a placement kicker for use in the close games sure to come. Sauer's answer was that Brocato would do all right - if the holder did a better job of taking the snaphack and teeing the pigskin properly. So Brocato and his holder Francis (Cotton) Davidson went back to work." I'm not quite sure who exactly is meant by sidewalk quarterback, do you understand it? As for the other part, I would assume it to be another teammate - would changing it to "new player" work?
  • including one that won the game 21–20., was this a walk-off extra point? Or did it just provide the difference. If the latter, then I would just reword to "during a 21-20 victory" or something like that.
    • Per The Austin American, it wasn't a walk-off kick, but it was made with less than three minutes to go and was the last score of the game - do you still think it should be re-worded?
      • Maybe add something like "near the end of the game" or something similar. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 23:26, 28 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
        • What about something like Three games later, against Texas A&M, he made all three extra points, including one in the final minutes that ultimately won the game 21–20 - would that work? BeanieFan11 (talk) 23:58, 28 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • one of the best kickers when under pressure, explain what pressure means here. Aren't kickers always under pressure?

That's all I got. Please ping me when you are ready for me to come back and take a look. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 18:54, 28 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Image review edit

  • Suggest adding alt text
  • Is any credit for the lead image provided in the newspaper source? Nikkimaria (talk) 04:24, 27 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • Newspapers.com is down currently, so I'll need a little while to get to the second point. As for the alt text, I've never quite understood how it works but I think I added it here? Did I do that right? BeanieFan11 (talk) 12:02, 27 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Nikkimaria: Looking at the newspaper sources again (they seem to work when they don't have the wiki-library url), there's two articles that use that image, both from the Fort Worth Star-Telegram; one of them says in the credit, "Shreveport Journal", and the other says "Special to the Star-Telegram/Shreveport Journal". BeanieFan11 (talk) 00:11, 29 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • Okay, is there any indication it was published in the Journal before the given source? Nikkimaria (talk) 00:12, 29 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      • @Nikkimaria: Wow, that was quick. I think it would have had to as the Star-Telegram pieces were both from 2015, whereas the Shreveport Journal ceased publication in 1991 (per our article) - I don't remember seeing that image anywhere else when I searched to create the article, though... BeanieFan11 (talk) 00:15, 29 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
        • So they should be credited on the image description page, but it would be good to find out if they name a photographer. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:17, 29 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Mike Christie edit

I copyedited a little as I read through; please feel free to revert anything you disagree with.

  • Suggest saying in the lead that Haynesville High School is in Louisiana.
    • Done.
  • "three-of-four": I was surprised to see the hyphens; is this standard in AmEng? I see the hyphens are used repeatedly later in the article; they look quite odd to my eyes.
    • I often see them in reference to field goals / extra points made. Pinging @Gonzo fan2007: for his views. BeanieFan11 (talk) 22:58, 10 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      Per this I don't think that's standard. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:16, 11 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      It seems it varies significantly in referring to football - looking at Google for "10-of-12 field goals" (random number) it seems there's a slight majority for the dashes but it looks evenly divided - and then clicking on the first two kickers that come to mind here, I get Harrison Butker (dashes) and Jake Elliott (no dashes). Let's see what Gonzo and @PCN02WPS: have to say. BeanieFan11 (talk) 15:07, 11 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      I don't have a strong preference either way. I can't find any clear guidance online either. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 15:46, 13 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "successfully attempted" is used twice in two sentences.
    • Changed.
  • "He converted both extra points against SMU, which was the margin of victory in the 14–13 win." "Both" implies two points, but the margin was three.
    • I think I'm confused - could you elaborate what it should be changed to?
      Sorry, I should have said the margin was one, not three. What I meant was that if "both extra points" was the margin, the margin should be two points. I suspect what is meant is that the two points he scored was enough to change the score from a losing result to a win. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:16, 11 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      @Mike Christie: Would then, say, something like this work: "He converted both extra points against SMU, which allowed the Bears to win 14–13"? BeanieFan11 (talk) 22:47, 11 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      Yes, that seems fine to me. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:50, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      @Mike Christie: Done. BeanieFan11 (talk) 16:04, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In addition to college football, Brocato played baseball and was a boxer. He was the backup catcher to Larry Isbell on the baseball team and competed at several Golden Gloves tournaments as a boxer." Suggest "In addition to playing college football, Brocato was the backup catcher to Larry Isbell on the baseball team and competed at several Golden Gloves tournaments as a boxer."
    • Changed.
  • "He left the team in August after being told by coach Joe Stydahar that he was not heavy enough—Brocato weighed 185 pounds (84 kg)—to play professionally, with the intention to get a master's degree and then enter coaching." If we know Stydahar told him this in August (rather than only knowing he left in August) how about "In August the coach, Joe Stydahar, told him that at 185 pounds (84 kg) he was not heavy enough to play professionally, and Brocato left the team, intending to get a master's degree and then enter coaching." If we only know he left in August I'd suggest something similar, but move the "in August" to "Brocato left the team in August".
    • Changed.
  • "When Cosmo smiled it was ear to ear": I thought this might be a typo but I see from the clipping that it's not, or at least if so it's a typo in the original. It's used twice in the original, but I think it's a typo there; some Googling has convinced me it was never used publicly as a general name for him. I would suggest adding {{sic}} after it in the quote.
    • Changed.
  • Per MOS:DASH you can have spaced en dashes or unspaced em dashes, but not both in the same article.
    • Could you list the sentences that would need to be changed if I went with one or the other?
      The sentence starting "He had eight siblings" has an unspaced em dash; the sentences starting "Brocato would add", "He recalled in 2015", and "Fisher described Brocato" all have spaced en dashes. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:16, 11 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      Changed the eight siblings one. BeanieFan11 (talk) 15:03, 11 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

-- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:11, 6 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:49, 13 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from WikiOriginal-9 edit

  • Do you think "Houston Oilers / Tennessee Oilers / Tennessee Titans" would be better, or no?
    • Eh, I kinda feel like its long enough already with "Houston / Tennessee Oilers / Titans" - I think with the note that's been added it should be alright.
  • Who is Tom Kelly in the image caption? Perhaps it should just say "with a player"?
    • Changed to "with a player"
  • "He missed all but one of his five attempts" Is that extra points or field goals or both combined?
    • Extra points, it appears - clarified.
  • Should we cite his height and weight in the infobox? It's from Pro Football Archives. We usually don't put citations in the infobox for players but this is a FA candidate. WikiOriginal-9 (talk) 18:19, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • I added a ref for the height, but his weight is discussed later on in the article so I don't think another citation will be necessary in the infobox. BeanieFan11 (talk) 19:10, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support I don't see anymore issues. I didn't do a full source review but I expect that's been done by this point. WikiOriginal-9 (talk) 10:51, 22 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Source review edit

Source formatting is mostly consistent and all necessary information is there. I notice there is a preeetty strong reliance on newspaper sources here - are there no biographies?

Since a spot-check has been asked for and with the caveat that this isn't a topic I am familiar with (I've always thought that American football and baseball are the same thing):

Unrelated to spotchecking, but "St. John's was renamed to Jesuit High School in 1960" should probably be mentioned much earlier in the article. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 13:48, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Will start getting to these soon... BeanieFan11 (talk) 13:53, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • @Jo-Jo Eumerus: Is there anything else I need to do for this spot check? Also, to answer your question, newspapers and a few websites are pretty much the only sources that have covered Brocato; I've included just about everything I could find worth mentioning. As for the Jesuit part, where would you suggest it be mentioned? I went in chronological order in the article and once I reached 1960 that's when I called out it was renamed that year. BeanieFan11 (talk) 18:55, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      One place would be the first mention of St. John, I was bepuzzled by it being a red link. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:25, 16 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      @Jo-Jo Eumerus: In the lead or in the prose? (also, there is no article for it at Jesuit or St. John); I realize I do mention it being renamed in the lead for the sentence He went on to serve as an assistant coach at Haynesville High School in Louisiana from 1954 to 1957, as the head coach of St. John's High School (renamed Jesuit High School in 1960) from 1958 to 1968... – should I swap that 1960 mention in the sentence A native of Shreveport, Louisiana, Brocato attended St. John's High School... earlier in the lead? BeanieFan11 (talk) 14:18, 16 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      In the lead, yes. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 14:44, 16 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      @Jo-Jo Eumerus: Is this better? BeanieFan11 (talk) 16:35, 16 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      That works. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:15, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Gog the Mild: Question: is there more work that needs to be done or is this close to being good enough for FA? (Just wondering - as I was hoping to get this passed by the end of the month for the WikiCup ). BeanieFan11 (talk) 15:51, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Currently we are waiting for a pass or fail from Jo-Jo. Once that happens one of the coordinators will have a more detailed look at things. Gog the Mild (talk) 13:14, 19 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, forgot to ask a few questions, they are in now. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 14:04, 19 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Jo-Jo Eumerus: Responded to each of them. BeanieFan11 (talk) 15:20, 19 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
OK, sorry for asking what seems like trivial questions. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 15:25, 19 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Jo-Jo Eumerus: That's alright though, is this considered a source review pass? BeanieFan11 (talk) 15:38, 19 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 16:08, 19 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Gog the Mild: BeanieFan11 (talk) 17:11, 19 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@WP:FAC coordinators: Gog the Mild (talk) 17:44, 19 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This seems to be heading in the right direction but I'd prefer to wait a little longer to see if it attracts another general review or two before I look at it with a view to closing. FrB.TG (talk) 19:10, 19 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@FrB.TG: Noting that since the prior comment it has gotten another support. Just wondering if sufficient work has been done or should I try to find another reviewer, as I've been really hoping to get this done in time for the WikiCup (end of the month). BeanieFan11 (talk) 00:15, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hi BeanieFan, yes this is next on my list to go over for possible closure so sit tight. That is unless one of my fellow coordinators beats me to it. FrB.TG (talk) 07:08, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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