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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Bone Wars

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 04:18, 5 September 2008 [1].

Bone Wars edit

Nominator(s): David Fuchs

Crooked scientists, looking for revenge. Rustlers. Cowboys. Guns. Bones. Explosions.

Hi, I'm David Fuchs. You might remember me from such video game FACs as Wipeout 3, Populous 3, Myst 3, and Spyro 3. This article is entirely non-game-related, due to a freakishly coincidental planetary alignment, so get your comments in now! I've done my best at copyediting (I contacted a few others for help, they must be busy...) and the article also went through a decent peer review. Cheers and drinks all around, Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 01:45, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A note on sources: For Lady Ealdgyth's edification, the following sources inquired about at the past peer review are explained below:

  • Comments regarding images:
    • Image:Cope-and-marsh.png - neither of the images from which this is derived have verifiable, if any, sourcing (WP:IUP)
    • Image:OCmarsh.jpg - needs a verifiable source ЭLСОВВОLД talk 01:58, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • You mean sourcing as in where the images were found, or the artist who took them? Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 02:07, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • If they're not the same, both. We need information to corroborate the copyright tag. If, for example, a tag is claiming PD because the image was first published before 1.1.1923, we need a source that tells us the publication date. ЭLСОВВОLД talk 02:09, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
          • Well, they all died before the turn of the century, so they should be covered by the 1920-rule anyway... I'll get to looking for the precise dates... (unfortunately I don't have my books with me, it's going to be harder to track down on the web.) Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 02:21, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
            • Publication is very different from creation. The creation date (or lifespan on the subjects) is not germane to that tag. ЭLСОВВОLД talk 02:25, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
            • I'm looking for replacements, by the way. Want a picture of Cope when he was 10? ;P ЭLСОВВОLД talk 02:33, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
              • That's fine by me, I'll take whatever images don't require me to sift through indices (damn whoever it was at peer review who recommended more images!) update - I've left a note with the uploader of the Marsh and co. image requesting the author and such info if he has them, if not I'll just remove it. Thanks for your help. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 03:15, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Update on the above: Peabody has not gotten back to me after two days (damn museums), so I've removed the image until its provenance can be verified. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 01:53, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ridiculous oppose Support - The title of this article does not have a 3 in it, so is inconsistent with articles previously worked on by David Fuchs. Also, there is no "in popular culture" section mentioning David's work on this article and others. Other than that, it meets the FAC criteria. Judgesurreal777 (talk) 03:55, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

  • Where's the gameplay section??? (omg joke)
  • I think most people have heard of the USA. It doesn't need a wikilink in the first sentence.
  • "possessed tons of unopened boxes of fossils between them after their deaths" - literally tons? This seems like slang and should probably be reworded.
  • "Como Bluff and the West" - I don't think the W should be capitalised
  • "Marsh sent Williston to the site, who sent a message to Cope that both the large quantities of bones, and the reports of Cope's men snooping around in the area were true" - not quite clear, probably due to the comma use etc. I'm thinking a reword to "Marsh sent Williston to the site; he sent back a report stating that the large quantities of bones, and the reports of Cope's men snooping around in the area, were true" will do the trick.
  • "Cope's error in reconstructing the plesiosaur Elasmosaurus humiliated Cope, who tried to cover up his mistake by purchasing every copy he could find of the journal it was published in" - repetition of Cope, and the bit after the comma could do with a bit of a reword (maybe change comma to semicolon too)

More will come soon. —Giggy 04:29, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Quick observation: "Tons" definitely means tons here, and is almost definitely not slang. We're talking about two of the most prolific fossil collectors ever, and the fossils included stuff like Amphicoelias. Firsfron of Ronchester 05:04, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Lead
    • "The Bone Wars is the name given to a period of intense fossil speculation and discovery in the United States of America during the Gilded Age of American history, fueled by a heated rivalry between Edward Drinker Cope and Othniel Charles Marsh." Something does not feel right to me here. Is the Bone Wars the rivalry between Cope and Marsh, or is it a rush by many fossil finders including Cope and Marsh? The last clause "fueled by a heated rivalry" is a tad confusing to me here. If the Bone Wars is predominantly between Cope and Marsh, replacing "fueled" with "marked" would seem better to me.
    • "The Bone Wars have also been the subject of both historical books and fictional adaptations." Would "Several historical books and fictional adaptations have also been published about this period of intense paleontological activity." accurately describe this?
    Background
    • "Cope was known to be pugnacious and possessed a quick temper; Marsh was slower and more methodical, and despite his powerful friends was very introverted. Both were quarrelsome and distrustful." Eh... I do not quite get the bolded part. How would having powerful friends make a person less of an introvert?
    Como Bluff and the West
    • About "to set up his own quarry", Whose "own quarry" was it, Mudge or Williston? Maybe its just me, but I think "own" would imply being directly in charge and not sending out representatives. With that in mind, perhaps "to set up a quarry on his behalf"?
    • "Marsh sent Williston to the site, who sent a message to Cope that both the large quantities of bones, and the reports of Cope's men snooping around in the area were true. Without delay both Cope and Marsh sent their men to Como Bluff to begin digging ..." The second clause seems wrongly connected with "who" (as it is, linked to the "site"). Williston (or Marsh?) sent a message to Cope? If Williston was Cope's spy, that certainly came out of the blue at this point. When did he start working for Cope?
      • Changed version. "Marsh sent Williston to the site and received a message from his former student that confirmed both the large quantities of bones and the reports of Cope's men snooping around in the area were true. Without delay, both Cope and Marsh sent their men to Como Bluff to begin digging. The phrase "without delay" seem to imply Cope was aware that Marsh knew of his interest in the site. While that might be inferred by Williston's presence, it (Cope's sending of his men without delay) seems out of place coming after a sentence solely focusing on Marsh's investigation of Cope's activities. Would "Without delay, Marsh sent his men in a race against Cope's to dig for fossils at Como's Bluff." be accurate?
    • Might I suggest changing "The digging lasted fifteen years." to "The paleontological dig lasted fifteen years."
    Personal disputes
    • "... elaborate journal of mistakes and misdeeds that both Marsh and John Wesley Powell ..." The "both" referring to the two committed the mistakes and misdeeds together, or is a redundant adjective in pointing the mistakes and misdeeds were of the two?
    • "... series of newspaper debates between Marsh, Powell and Cope ..." The three debated each other, or is it Cope versus Marsh and Powell, or Cope versus Marsh or Powell?
    Legacy
    • "Cope issued a final challenge at his death." I am not certain one could issue a challenge when dead, perhaps "before he died", or was it an extraordinary circumstance (by the reading of a will)?
    • "Their animosity and public behavior ..." Is "their" referring to Cope and Marsh, or their peers and the entire field?
    • "Recent excavation ..." Best to state the time, the specific excavation(s) would not be recent twenty years down the line.
Interesting read overall, but I think a copyedit for prose is required. Jappalang (talk) 08:05, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • I've fixed all the above (the newspaper debates were free-for-all, not necessarily cope vs. marsh and powell.) Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 13:39, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • I have struck most of the previous issues. There is still an issue left (see above regarding Como Bluff and the West) after performing a copyedit. I am also holding off judgment to see if the sources brought up by Nishkid64 would contribute to the comprehensiveness to the article. Jappalang (talk) 15:22, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • Going over the changes (from the addition of source by Wallace), I have further questions (listing them below).
    Como Bluff and the west
    • "Marsh ordered Williston back to Morrison, where the small quarry collapsed and nearly killed Marsh's assistants and ending all of Marsh's digging for the time being." I presume the small quarry would be at Morrison. Was it Lakes' quarry ("Lakes' small quarry") or did Marsh set up his own there (which was never previously mentioned)? Why would the collapse end all of Marsh's digging (I thought earlier he had "bought over" the New Jersey's murl pits) ? Was Morrison his only source of fossils at this time, or was it due to some safety investigations by authorities?
    • "Marsh, attempting to cover the leak, learned from Williston that Carlin and Reed had been frequented by a man ostensibly working for Cope by the name of "Haines"." Would this also be "the reports of Cope's men snooping around in the area" previously. In that case, there is bit of redundancy between these two paragraphs.
    • "related to the weather, enemy workers, and attacks by Native Americans." Would "enemy workers" mean the rival's workers (Cope-Marsh), or other fossil hunters' workers? Can the threat be classified, such as sabotage?
    • "After being forced to abandon a collapsing quarry in a freezing blizzard, Lakes submitted his resignation and returned to teaching in 1879." Would this be the Morrison quarry talked about earlier? Seems to be a bit disconnected down here if it is.
    • "As the 1880's wore on," Just checking, is this phrasing informal?
    • "the disaffected Carline and Williston" Is "Carline" a typo for "Carlin"? Why did they become disaffected (i.e. resentful and disloyal to Marsh)?
    • "his chief worker's departure" I think it is a bit sudden to call Reed Marsh's chief worker since it was never stressed his contribution was the greatest among those working under Marsh. Perhaps this point could be stressed some place earlier, like Reed's sending back of fossils.
    Personal disputes and later years
    • "and his contacts with the rich and powerful" Just to clarify, this "his" would be referring to Powell, correct?
    • "Cope was much worse for wear" Is the phrase informal?
    • "alienated his assistants and even Williston" Was Williston not an assistant, or did he have some special position? If he was an assistant, the "and even" could be replaced as ", particularly".
    • "Cope used disgruntled workers to tarnish the Survey's image and searched for mining workers who would speak out against Powell." Are these two separate actions, or is "speaking out against Powell" part of the tarnishing of the Survey's image?
    • "relative duds" Now that is informal.
    • "mud thrown against" Informal phrase again.
    • "Compounded by western drought and concerns about takeovers of abandoned homesteads, Powell found himself the subject of larger scrutiny before the House Appropriations Committee." Why would Powell the person be "compounded" by drought and abandoned home takeovers, or is it referring to his situation (i.e. Powell's plight was compounded)? I am not too certain if I am ably describing my thoughts here...
    • "Exposed by Marsh's perceived extravagance with Survey funds, the Appropriations Committee demand the Survey's budget be itemized." This might explain it. To me, if I to shift the preceding clause, it will read to me "The Appropriations Committee, exposed by Marsh's perceived extravagance with Survey funds, demand the Survey's budget be itemized." which does not make sense to me.
    • "Marsh never rose to the challenge" would mean that Marsh never found the courage (,will, and ability) to meet the challenge. That seems a bit POV. Maybe a simple "Marsh never accepted the challenge" or "Marsh refused to entertain the challenge"?
(reset indenting for above list) That is it for the new revision. Jappalang (talk) 00:00, 30 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I believe I've made most of the changes. Some were simply badly written, and others were ungainly so I streamlined them. Removed the informal phrasing. As to the quarries, they refer to seperate dig sites, and with the additional content added I've tried to clarify they were digging in multiple places. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 01:29, 30 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Redented for comments based on this version,
    • "Williston struck a preliminary bargain with Carlin and Reed (who had been unable to cash Marsh's check due to it being made out to their pseudonyms), but Carlin decided he would head to New Haven to deal with Marsh directly. Marsh signed a contract with Carlin and Reed for a set monthly fee, Marsh signed a contract with Carlin and Reed for a set monthly fee, with additional bonus possible depending on the importance of the finds. Marsh also reserved the right to send his own "superintendents" to supervise the digging if needed, and advised the men to try and keep Cope out of the region. Arriving in New Haven, Marsh refused to haggle with Carlin and although he procured the two men's work, seeds of discord and resentment were sown in the bone hunters as they felt the paleontologist had bullied them into the deal. [...] During the winter of 1878 dissatisfaction with Marsh's infrequent payments fomented, and Carlin began working for Cope instead." I believe the proper sequence of events are jumbled up and interspersed within these sentences. They need to be sorted.
The contents are looking better with each revision. Once the final changes have been made, perhaps another round of copyediting should be done. Jappalang (talk) 23:09, 30 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think content- and structure-wise, the article looks good now. Holding off for the moment to see if more new sources are to be added. Jappalang (talk) 00:59, 31 August 2008 (UTC) }}[reply]
After notification that there would likely be no new sources soon, I took a look and did a bit of copyediting. I believe the article as pointed above is as comprehensive as it can be for the sources used. The language is comprehensible and the layout and structure helped to make the reading experience enjoyable. I am less than expert with prose, so I will not criticize on it save that an expert copyeditor could further spiff up the text. Nevertheless, I think this article qualifies to be featured. Jappalang (talk) 07:47, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments - Sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. I am afraid I'll eventually have to oppose since it doesn't involve software, what WERE you thinking?? Ealdgyth - Talk 13:49, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment For such an important event in paleontological history, I feel that this article is pretty short. I came to this FAC expecting an article two or three times as long. I'll do some digging and check the coverage of this event in paleontological sources. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 13:56, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Some references that could be used to expand the article: The Bonehunters' Revenge: Dinosaurs and Fate in the Gilded Age by David Rains Wallace, Jaffe, Penick, Colbert, Osborn and Shor. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 14:27, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • I've started to incorporate some of the book's info, I'll continue after I finish up classes today. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 15:23, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • Ok, I've added some fifteen or twenty citations from the book, as well as two other sources I found readily available. The article now stands at about 3,200 words, about 6-7KB larger then it was this morning :) Can you take a look over it now? Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 19:03, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • I'll be back at college tomorrow, so I might pick up some of the books above and help out with the expansion. I'll give you an update either tomorrow or Sunday. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 21:33, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Question I'm surfing through this FACs and found explosions, wars, theft and cowboys. Nice written and interesting game discription article. But my questions is, shouldn't the inline citations in their numerical order? (huh, is this the right word?) E.g. Como Bluff and the west '... including Lakes' discovery.[12][11] Marsh heard ...' and Personal disputes and later years '... in higher education.)[29][28] Cope began ...'. Thank you for your attention and patience with my bad English. Greetings Sebastian scha. (talk) 00:05, 30 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Damn you nitpickers! :P No, you're right. I've fixed all the instances of miscalled refs where I found them. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 19:08, 30 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support from nitpicker Graham Colm Talk on today's version. There are some minor issues with the prose:

  • While his father wanted his son to work as a farmer, Cope instead distinguished himself as a naturalist. - "while" is not the right word here- try "although".
  • the reports of Cope's men snooping around in the area were true. I might be wrong about this but should this not be " the reports of Cope's men's snooping around in the area were true."
  • I spotted two occurrences of "as well as" where a simple "and" would suffice.
  • Spot the error here: Concerned about strangers invading Reed's quarries,
  • And finally a little redundancy: while surveying his Como quarries in 1879, Marsh himself examined recent finds and marked several for destruction.

I enjoyed reading this fascinating account which is, on the whole, beautifully written. Graham Colm Talk 14:46, 31 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think the Cope part is correct; it's a report about Cope's men, not about the snooping of cope's men. I've changed everything else except the "Concerned about..." - I can't spot the error :P Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 14:59, 31 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think this needs an apostrophe - Concerned about strangers' invading Reed's quarries . And with regard to Cope's men, then you have to write, who were snooping around... Graham Colm Talk 15:18, 31 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not really sure about either of those changes are necessary grammatically. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 15:48, 31 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This is no deal-breaker; I've already added my support. If you have the time take a look here: noun plus -ing. Graham Colm Talk 16:12, 31 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I still want it to be right :P I'll take a look through Tony' exercises when I have time. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 16:56, 31 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. I was a little concerned a couple of weeks ago, with the article getting rather "Marshocentric" for a while (at one point, Marsh's most famous discoveries were listed while Cope's were entirely removed). And someone kept rewording the article to state that dinosaur genera were species (I originally corrected it in November, corrected it again on August 1st and again on August 17th!). Despite these missteps, David and others have put together a fine, readable article. The prose seems clear, there are no disambiguation links, and external links are all valid. I'm not a big fan of the citation format (it doesn't match any of the dinosaur taxonomy articles), but that's a personal preference that has more to do with standardization than any criticism with the article itself. Well done! Firsfron of Ronchester 04:04, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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