User talk:Pkeets/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Roger Daltrey discography

You recently made some edits to Roger Daltrey discography that included making a new section called "Collaborations". I'd like to remind you that there once was a section for Collaborations but it was removed and merged with the other sections a while back. What is your reasoning for bringing it back? Democraticmacguitarist (talk) 18:23, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Alien (film)

Hi. We can't cite IMDb's trivia sections, as they are user-contributed and thus not reliable. This is a topic that has come up at WT:FILMS a number of times in the past, and is the main reason that IMDb is not considered a reliable source. If you can find the same information in a reliable, published source with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy, then feel free to re-add it and cite the new source, but please don't simply revert to the IMDb citation (I'm confused by your edit summary "better reference to add", as you didn't add a better reference but rather simply restored the one you'd used previously). For what it's worth, I wrote 99% of the article, and in doing so read several books devoted to Alien (The Book of Alien, Beautiful Monsters, etc.) and took notes on all of the behind-the-scenes features and commentary from the Alien Quadrilogy DVD box set, and as far as I can recall none of them mentioned The Who. --IllaZilla (talk) 03:46, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

I see that you've changed the reference. It would have been easier if you'd replaced the reference the first time, rather than reverting. It's good to know that there's another Alien book on the shelves. I'll see if I can get my hands on it; I'd love to dive back into that article and try to give it the FA push. --IllaZilla (talk) 03:53, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

New Page Patrol survey

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Coordinate finding

When I need to find coordinates, I always use http://universimmedia.pagesperso-orange.fr/geo/loc.htm because it's so simple: it only exists for finding coordinates. The coordinates are displayed prominently and clearly, and you can get around either by dragging the box, dragging the marker in the middle, or typing in an address. Nyttend (talk) 00:44, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks!

Nomination of Pictures Of Lily (2011 film) for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Pictures Of Lily (2011 film) is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pictures Of Lily (2011 film) until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on good quality evidence, and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion template from the top of the article. JohnCD (talk) 22:20, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

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Shwartz

Your new article Eugene Schwartz is on a writer who already has an article: Evgeny Shvarts.--INeverCry 01:27, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

The spelling "Shvarts" is strange, but you never know how people will spell a Russian name here. The name Schwartz has 5 or 6 different spellings in articles here. If you want to make sure you're not creating a duplicate article, you can check the ru.wikipedia article on a particular person and see what interwiki it has. This is how I found the Shvarts article. The Oleynikov article is a nice addition btw.--INeverCry 02:19, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

Falsetto

Hi Pkeets. Thanks for your work and comments on the falsetto article. I've tried to improve the language on the female falsetto section. Please give me your feedback. Best.4meter4 (talk) 15:38, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm not an expert of speech pathology, but here are some sources to help that portion of the article which you were concerned about:

Clinical Voice Pathology (page 324-328)

Speech-language pathology (page 66)

Medical Speech-language pathology (page 29)

Best.4meter4 (talk) 16:44, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Krystyna Moszumanska-Nazar

Hello. Could you please write sources for the supposed Ukrainian nativity of Moszumańska? As you probably know, Lviv was a Polish city before WW2. Greetings, Gregory of Nyssa (talk) 18:27, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

I changed her nationality in the article. I think you're right that nationality is determined by the designation of the country at the time of birth. Thanks. Pkeets (talk) 14:35, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

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Mindy Rosenfeld

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Double O

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Lucy Guerin

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Nanette Hassall

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Finding links

I have added a reply to Wikipedia:Help desk#Finding links. PrimeHunter (talk) 12:51, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

RE:Ballet vs. Modern

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Copyright violations

You have my sympathy. FWIW, I've been through this a couple of times and have learned from my experiences. You might find this helpful in the future.

1. 1 Don't start an article from any one source. Cook it in a work area/sandbox, plainly marked as such, and with a notation that it is a {{User page}}
2. 2 Use lots of sources and paraphrase, paraphrase, paraphrase. Jumble the words and the ideas.
3. 3 To the largest extent possible, think of another structure.
4. 4 Do not publish the article 'into the wild' until you have a base that won't be picked up by a Bot as a "copyright violation." These bots are incredibly efficient and overzealous, and will set up your article for speedy deletion. Once your article has been targeted by the bot, in practice it seems that admins will presume that you are violating copyright, and will proceed in that direction, no matter how much it has been transubstantiated in the meantime. Moreover, the bot's entry is effectively deemed to be 'proof' of the poisoned source.
5. 5. Do respond to every copyright violation inquiry. Silence in the face of such an accusation is taken as evidence of guilt.
6. 6. If they have run a bot which does a heavy duty comparison between the article and the alleged copyright violation article, do respond to that. The last time I encountered one of these, I did a point-by-point refutation. The problem with the comparison bot is that it is a gross tool, which looks for miniscule (2 or 3 words or more in common, not necessarily in order) and then lists them as "hits." This will take things like common citations and shared proper names and turn them into "evidence of close paraphrasing." This makes writing historical matters very difficult, as you can't hardly change the names or the sources.
7. 7 "Close paraphrasing" is a hellish accusation. It is essentially in the eyes of the beholder, like beauty. The standards are amorphous. Some of our colleagues will throw in a "close paraphrasing concern" and will not point you to the offending passages, leaving you to guess.
8. 8. I regularly use desktop plagiarism checker, and when challenged offer to share the results (it publishes to PDF) with anyone concerned.
9. 9. If you are under siege, get help. Moonriddengirl has proved her worth and lack of bias. I am sure there are others.

Happy editing. Best to you. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 19:48, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Illegitimi non carborundum. Unfortunately, they should take into account who you are and what you have done. The bots don't, and even the humans forget to do that. The "close paraphrasing" is a morass. Take a look at what happened with Bill Smith (fell runner). If you want a WP:DYK you can expect a proctological examination. Keep up the good work. Wikipedia is good at handing out slaps, but pats are much harder to come by. This does not mean that your work is not worthwhile. If I can be of assistance, please feel free to call on me. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 20:10, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Antoinette Kirkwood

The article Antoinette Kirkwood has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

No evidence of notability. The references are not substantial coverage in independent sources.

While all contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing {{proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. JamesBWatson (talk) 12:41, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Fixed refs (form) which establish notability. Removed template. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 13:22, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Pkeets, Assuming it was on your watchlist, I have no idea why you wouldn't see it. It is also possible that I edited soon after the bot attack, and you saw my edit, not its. I saw the posting on your page, and as an incliusionist, I dislike articles being purged needlessly. Best to you. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 14:54, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

I made sure that my reference corrections revealed Res ipsa loquitur the importance and reliability of the sources. The pared down citations give the piggies fodder for their trough. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 15:00, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

This article need a composer infobox, and ideally a link to an audio snippet of one of her compositions. I am in an area where I know almost nothing, so I'm leaving it all up to you. Just suggestions. Best regards. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 14:54, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Sometimes gingerbread will make it look more substantial. And less likely to be subjbect ot deletion inquiries. Note the red links. they could use their own article. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 18:06, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

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Your query about the proposed deletion of Antoinette Kirkwood

Hello, and thanks for your latest message on my talk page. Although I usually try to keep discussion in one place, this time I have decided to post here instead of on my talk page. I'm sorry that I didn't make this clear earlier. What I posted was a PROD, not an AfD notification. To a newby editor I would probably have some effort to make the difference clear, but I assumed that an editor who has been around since 2005 and has made well over 11000 edits would already be aware of the difference. An AfD involves a deletion discussion. A PROD, on the other hand, in effect says "I think maybe this article should be deleted. I am suggesting deletion, but anyone who thinks it shouldn't be deleted is welcome to contest the suggestion. If nobody objects to the deletion within a week, can some administrator please delete it?" However, in this case someone has objected, by removing the PROD notice from the article, so that is the end of that deletion proposal. I could still take it to AfD if I were convinced the article should be deleted, but I don't intend to. I am actually very unsure as to whether she meets Wikipedia's notability guidelines, but I am willing to give her the benefit of the doubt. I hope that makes the situation clearer, but please contact me on my talk page if you still have any more questions. JamesBWatson (talk) 11:05, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

British Academy of Songwriters, Composers and Authors – BASCA article

Nice job. It was a very short article. Quintupling its size (of the prose) might not be that hard to do, and it might then be a WP:DTK. What do you think? 7&6=thirteen (☎) 05:13, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Founder of UBR (18 May 2009). "British Academy of Songwriters, Composers and Authors". Unsigned band review. {{cite web}}: Unknown parameter |= ignored (help) This is the article we should mine for most of it. 7&6=thirteen (☎)

I am sure we are big enough for a DYK. We need a hook. Any suggestions? 7&6=thirteen (☎) 00:22, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

The Ivors are a big deal (I think) in the UK. You certainly could put up an alternate hook line. I've no objection. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 02:32, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

When you are working on getting a DYK, you can never know what the reviewing 'committee' members may decide is appropriate. See for example Template:Did_you_know_nominations/John_Henry_Devereux and Template:Did you know nominations/Christopher Werner, both of which involved considerations of alternate hooks. Solme this relates to the 'sexiness' of the hook, and that is in the eyes of the beholder, hard to define and dependent upon imponderables. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 02:45, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Here's another one. DYK nomination Mildred Lewis Rutherford. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 17:06, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Marianella Machado

That would explain that - I was editing from my office, and Facebook and Amazon don't come up. Looks like a bit of a slam-dunk keep, then. I'll post a note at the nominator's talk page, though I'm not expecting a reply. If we get enough comments, a SNOW close might be possible, though it's not a huge deal either way. I also notice that I forgot to notify you of the nomination, for which I apologize. UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 13:21, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

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The new Eileen Malone article

		The Biography Barnstar
		Thanks for working to improve Wikipedia by creating the new article Eileen Malone. Your efforts are appreciated. Northamerica1000(talk) 11:19, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Talkback

Hello, Pkeets. You have new messages at Ukexpat's talk page.
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ukexpat (talk) 02:12, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

I've commented there as well. Favonian (talk) 16:44, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

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DYK nomination of British Academy of Songwriters, Composers and Authors

Hello! Your submission of British Academy of Songwriters, Composers and Authors at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and there still are some issues that may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! Miyagawa (talk) 10:12, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

DYK for British Academy of Songwriters, Composers and Authors

The DYK project (nominate) 22:03, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

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Charles Malherbe

Where on earth did you get the info that he was born in Parigi, Ranga Reddy, a village with a current population of 436 in Andhra Pradesh, India? My reference books (e.g. Grove Opera) say he was born in Paris, i.e Paris, France. Parigi is the Italian translation of Paris. Best. --GuillaumeTell 16:59, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing that out. It was confusing. Pkeets (talk) 17:01, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Duponchel

Thanks for starting this article. It clearly fills a important gap in our coverage of the Paris Opera. --Robert.Allen (talk) 00:27, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Issue with operas.com.ar

Greetings! I was just looking at your article on Filippo Bonaffino; good work; unfortunately I found something we need to fix. See this section where I explain it the Wikiproject Classical Music. That website has pillaged the entire database of the online New Grove (Oxford Music Online). Do you have access, by any chance? It's by subscription. I can start changing the links from operas.com.ar to the real articles, so none of your work should be affected, but it's kind of a big job. Do you remember if you've used it anywhere else? (We have a policy of not allowing linking to copyright violating sites.) Thanks and good work on filling in the missing biographies! Antandrus (talk) 02:41, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

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Charles-Edmond Duponchel (architect)

Good idea. I hesitated to do this because I thought some editor might come along later and nominate it for deletion as being "non-notable". I'll take a look at it. --Robert.Allen (talk) 02:43, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Dion-Tenenbaum definitely thinks that Henri Duponchel worked for James de Rothschild. It was through this work that he met Cicéri. A potential trap for us is determining which references mistakenly call Henri Duponchel by the first names of Charles-Edmond. We're fortunate that Delaire includes his birth year. --Robert.Allen (talk) 02:50, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Hey, you figured out that we have an article on his father. Good going!!! --Robert.Allen (talk) 03:05, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

I have something else I'm working on right now. I'll try to add some more to this tomorrow. Anyway, now we can prune that horrendously long footnote in Henri Duponchel and shift a lot of it to this new article. Thank heavens! --Robert.Allen (talk) 03:07, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Should we request a move of this article to Charles-Edmond Duponchel? If an admin does it, the history of this article will be preserved.I doubt we need it as a disambig page; hatnotes may be the way to go. --Robert.Allen (talk) 03:14, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

I think the redirect is fine. --Robert.Allen (talk) 03:27, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

I see now that Dion-Tenenbaum had all this correct, but I misread her pronoun as referring to Charles-Edmond, rather than his father. Tamvaco made the same error (and also confused who studied with Vaudoyer). Perhaps Tamvaco influenced me in misreading it, but it was surely confusing in any case. D-T could have written it more clearly. It's good we can correct our errors so much more easily on the Wikipedia! --Robert.Allen (talk) 03:43, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Original Barnstar
	For work on biographies (and as an apology that, sorry, disagree about the Nintendo employee es:Minako Hamano being notable, have tagged it but will leave anything further to more active es.wp editors). Cheers In ictu oculi (talk) 05:18, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

Greetings- about your note

Greetings. I found the "invisible" template for placing in the External links section as well as the info re: moving links to the talk page. I can look it up, although it will be a pain in the ass.. I copied it from where I found it on a guidelines page some time ago and placed it in one of my sandboxes. Usually the cleanup page works, but I have done this on a number of articles over the years, and this is the first complaint I've had. I have provided more photos for musician's articles than any other Wikipedian manually, (you can find a link above a tiny gallery of favorites on my user page), so moving all over the musicians' biography pages over the years. Normally I include a warning on the talk page to be careful with what I transfer to the talk page as I rarely have any idea if it's usable. The goal is to keep the article as pristine as possible for readers (which allows us to discuss all privately on the talk page) regardless if it's a Stub-class or a B-class article. I like your idea of the "Further reading" which would work, but tread lightly there- honestly it's like the "See also" area of articles to which Wikipedia:Template messages/Cleanup- that's in there; probably both originated there. Let me know if you are not satisfied.. I have been in a hurry today, and that usually isn't a good idea when editing! --Leahtwosaints (talk) 15:41, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

RE: Article for Spanish Wikipedia

The article in the sandbox has a lot of grammar errors so these should be corrected before using it in the Spanish Wikipedia. But the main problem is that the article was deleted twice in this Wikipedia because reliable sources were missing. Best regards, Alpertron (talk) 19:28, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

Pkeets, if no reliable sources are found it is clear that it will be also erased from the Spanish Wikipedia, in the case you add the article to it. Please read es:Wikipedia:Fuentes fiables. Best regards, Alpertron (talk) 19:52, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

Article on Charles-Edmond Duponchel

Hi Pkeets, I left a note at Talk:Charles-Edmond Duponchel (architect) about the name of the article and would appreciate your feedback. Thanks! --Robert.Allen (talk) 00:26, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your comment. I left a response on the article talk page. --Robert.Allen (talk) 02:40, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

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Re: Philogène Auguste Joseph Duponchel

I was kind of wondering about that myself. No one seems to know exactly what day Auguste died. If it was late in October and greater than 10 and a half months, maybe one could attribute this to rounding up. Or we could put quotes on it and add "[sic}, if we think it is just an error, which it seems like it may have been. Or we can leave the number out, and phrase it differently. I thought it was somewhat interesting that Auguste (and his mother) died so soon after Philogène. --Robert.Allen (talk) 16:01, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

I found an online copy of Edmond Duponchel's document concerning the Algerian colonization. At first glance it does not appear to be either a "budgetary accounting" or an architectural document, but maybe more a political one. It takes me quite a while to read French, so I didn't take the time to read very much of it. If you can read French easily, you may want to look at it. I'd be curious to know what you think of it. --Robert.Allen (talk) 16:11, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

Quarwood.

Do you know if Quarwood is accessible for taking photos? If so I will go get a good one for the article. Nice work, BTW. Saffron Blaze (talk) 14:21, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

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DYK nomination of St Edward's Church

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DYK for St Edward's Church

Orlady (talk) 08:03, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

DYK for Quarwood

The DYK project (nominate) 08:02, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

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Proposed deletion of Ricardo Hernandez

The article Ricardo Hernandez has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

No reliable refs that connect Hernandez and Insane Clown Posse. Refs were in the article about ICP, but they never mentioned Hernandez or backed up what was being sourced. Only find refs that connect him to Undaground Disciples, but they have self-released one album with Havoc Supreme yet to be released. Fails WP:MUSICBIO

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Nomination of Ricardo Hernandez for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Ricardo Hernandez is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ricardo Hernandez until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

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Stephanie Adams

Hello Pkeets and welcome to Wikipedia. Your editing pattern indicates that you may be using multiple accounts or coordinating editing with people outside Wikipedia. Our policy on multiple accounts usually does not allow this. If you operate multiple accounts directly or with the help of another person, please remember to disclose these connections. Fasttimes68 (talk) 03:11, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

Resorting to personal attacks? Please provide logical arguments instead. Pkeets (talk) 04:26, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

Notice of Conflict of interest noticeboard discussion

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Townshend

Replied at talk. – Connormah (talk) 03:12, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

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Greetings- nice to meet you

Hi- I appreciate your notification about the Pete Townshend article and the infobox where I recently placed a different photo, yet had it removed. Is this the photo you prefer?: [1]? If you prefer the current photo and had concerns for my feelings about it, no worries. The photos are both clear and from the same date. I obviously disliked the current one of Townshend (wearing the striped sweater) so much that I found, negotiated, and uploaded a different one! If you are concerned about the other editor who reverted my choice, it's not a big deal to me, but I'd admonish anybody to be careful not to WP:OWN (but in a nice way), and to review the MOS:IMAGES. Maybe the confusion is that it says the infobox must be right-aligned IOW, you can't format an infobox to a position in the center or to the left of the article.

Follow the photo I uploaded to it's source in Flickr and there's a whole set of photos of The Who from 2007 we may use (I have worked with the photographer before). I've been doing this photo thing on such a large scale that at this point, the article needs copyediting, references, and text expansion and will likely go through a lot of metamorphosis before reaching GA-rank. Sure, I think the photo I put there is better and yes, we can move the current one down chronologically. Thanks for your input! I'll add some of this message to Townshend's talk page. --Leahtwosaints (talk) 11:26, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Glad we met-thanks for the warning. Those artists whose work and influence is as pivotal as their longevity are a bit daunting, which is why I often do some rewording and wikification but choose a role as a helper more than as a lead editor, (or an Admin.) mostly because I dislike confrontation. That article is SO far from GA review that scrapping over a picture in a box is silly. But if I can ever help you in some way, don't hesitate to ask. :) --Leahtwosaints (talk) 21:10, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Pete Townshend

I just noticed the photo of Pete in the infobox. I wish I could make a fancy SMOOCH in bright red lipstick here, so please imagine it is. DYK, there is an entire photostream in Flickr of The Who if you follow the photo to it's source? All of them are free to upload images. If you ever want help searching for photos, just let me know. xoxox :) --Leahtwosaints (talk) 10:04, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

Your help desk question

You may get some results with WP:ANI.— Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 21:53, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

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DYK nomination of The Mechanics of Oscar Pistorius' Running Blades

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Mechanics of Running Blades

Unless The Mechanics of Running Blades is an alternative name for people like Scott Reardon, it should not be added to the top of the page. If adding it to article sections, it should be added to the most appropriate sections, such as definition of classification sections or sections on equipment utilised by some one in the classification. It is not a competitor, and doesn't belong in those sections. I've removed it from articles where it is not an alternative name for a competitor or in the completely wrong section of an article, or an article where there are zero references related to the topic where you put it. Please be more thoughtful in where you added such links. --LauraHale (talk) 13:49, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Original Barnstar
	Thanks for The Mechanics of Oscar Pistorius' Running Blades‎. It's a great article, and very timely. Good piece of work! 8-) Andy Dingley (talk) 16:08, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Thanks! Pkeets (talk) 16:13, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

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DYK for Mechanics of Oscar Pistorius' running blades

Graeme Bartlett (talk) 08:02, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Some assistance?

Hey, I have this gigantic long list of most of my musicians' photo uploads which I had to petition for to change licenses, and all that stuff. Another editor began a list, but perfection in alphabetizing is not a strength either of us have, especially those with band names beginning with "The", as in The Who. Upon running into your list of articles on your user page, I was wondering if there's maybe a bot or you might take a look and/or help me with it? It is here: User:Leahtwosaints/Leahtwosaints/List of uploaded musician's photos. Thanks for your time!! --Leahtwosaints (talk) 14:19, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Oh Wow, thanks! Yes, of course you may work on the list directly! One thing- if you consider any changes on the blue main user page, it would be very kind to consult with User:Catfish Jim and the soapdish, who made that part without my knowledge as a gift, since I have no real computer experience, except a few things here on the Wikipedia, and email. I am so glad to have met you! I believe some of my uploads might qualify as featured photos on the en.Wikipedia, at least, like that of Sweet Honey in the Rock, but the process seemed daunting, and I'm one of those people with ADHD so sadly, I haven't the patience. --Leahtwosaints (talk) 17:28, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

It's time!

It's that time again!! Yet another of those silly shiny things. But put it someplace special. Then on some sad day, you'll have it to look at to remind you that people appreciate you. With genuine sincerity, --Leahtwosaints (talk) 13:31, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

	The Working Wikipedian's Barnstar
	For User:Pkeets whose quick and tedious work will save me hours of agony! Thanks! Leahtwosaints (talk) 13:31, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

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File permission problem with File:HarmonicMaths25.jpg

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Classification articles

As you're interested in classification articles, I was wondering if you had any feedback I might find useful for LW3 (classification) and Para-Nordic skiing classification? Taking a number of these for skiing to GA and hoping they can be template for other articles going forward in terms of getting an idea of what to add. --LauraHale (talk) 06:03, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

I am hoping factoring is adequately explained in Para-alpine skiing, Para-alpine skiing classification and Para-Nordic skiing classification so that these specific classification articles don't need a more detailed explanation for them. I'm not entirely certain I always get the leg strength. One of the problems is that some of these articles actually need daughter/sibling articles to explain things in them. (I created Outrigger ski because half the equipment used for para-skiing doesn't have an article, which makes the equipment article a bit difficult as greater explanations really become needed.) --LauraHale (talk) 06:59, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Mechanics of Oscar Pistorius' running blades GA Review

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The Wick House

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Lind/Julius Günther

OK, I looked into this. What I think you meant is that the 1891 Memoir says that they were engaged, but that the Jorgensens have disputed this. I read the essay by the Jorgensens, but it is so badly written as to throw in question their scholarship. I added a clearer description to both Lind's and Günther's articles, together with the specific page numbers from the Lind Memoir and a cite to the Jorgensen article, even though I wonder if it is a "reliable source". Note that Duchen's Independent article doesn't say anything about Günther. By the way, Price's disclosure was in early 2009. Hasn't anything come to light since then? -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:44, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

Jan Hoffman

I see your point. We should however adhere to our basic policies, including the one about reliable sources. The claim that Hoffman was Jewish should require a source. The mere fact of hiding under the Nazi occupation doesn't automatically mean he was Jewish. Poles were persecuted with the sheer brutality as well, especially middle class and intelligentsia. - Darwinek (talk) 22:53, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Liana Alexandra

First, please stop panicking. The world is not about to blow up in a massive fireball, even if we keep a copyvio text for a few hours more. And let's not go around telling other editors what they "need" to do.

Second, we are not talking about a copyvio. What had to be quoted or attributed, I put in quotes. What was able to be paraphrased, I did so. If you don't believe me, I will e-mail you a copy of Grove.

Third, if you want to go with another version, no one is stopping you, provided it conforms to WP:MOS, WP:V, WP:RS and other core policies. The version you are proposing does not. - Biruitorul ^Talk 14:17, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

To Pkeets - Dear Sir, I ask you to insert the Copyviocore also on Serban Nichifor.--Newconsonance (talk) 17:56, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

For one, what you consider a copyvio has been there for 49 days; a few hours more to sort out the issue is not the end of the world, whatever you may say. For another, I don't really need a message "welcoming" me to Wikipedia; I've been around nearly as long as you have. And finally, you may wish to review Grove and compare it to my text before rushing to conclusions. Like I said, what needed to be quoted was quoted, and whatever else there was was sufficiently rephrased. You're treating this far out of proportion to any wrongdoing that has occurred. - Biruitorul ^Talk 18:06, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

The "Welcome" just comes with the template. I did review Grove and it looks too close to me. I had attempted to get someone to address the copyright issue on this article previously, but it appears nothing has been done. The process will now sort it out, and we can get people who aren't involved to provide an opinion on whether the quotes and paraphrasing are too close.Pkeets (talk) 18:29, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

To Pkeets and to Biruitorul - In solidarity, I was now inserted the copyvio also on the page Serban Nichifor. Faithfully Yours, Prof.Dr. Serban Nichifor--Newconsonance (talk) 18:18, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

It was immediately reverted, Newconsonance. If you think there's a copyright violation, you have to edit the template with the article name and a link to a site with the suspected violation. You can't copy the same template into a different article without changing it. Pkeets (talk) 18:33, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Serban Nichifor - copyvio. A previous version of the article exists which is not a copyright violation. There's a scan from a print version of the Grove article in question linked here.--Newconsonance (talk) 06:13, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Serban Nichifor

A previous version of the article Serban Nichifor exists, which is not a copyright violation! There's a scan from a print version of the Grove article in question linked here, used fraudulently by plagiarist Biruitorul--Newconsonance (talk) 06:27, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Obvious plagiarism:

1.) Original Text (from Grove): "He has experimented with new techniques of sound organization and structure, notably in his opera Domnişoara Cristina, which includes tape recordings. His eclectic compositonal language extends to jazz elements in his Third and Fourth Symphonies. In his compositions after 1990 he has developed a simplified style employing themes reminiscent of Byzantine chant." 2.) Biruitorul's plagiarism (Nota Bene, without the quotes!): His work features experimentation in new techniques of organizing and structuring sound. For instance, his opera Domnişoara Cristina includes tape recordings. His diverse repertoire includes elements of jazz in his Third and Fourth Symphonies. Since 1990, his work is simpler in style, with themes recalling Byzantine chant. Quod Erat Demonstrandum!--Newconsonance (talk) 09:20, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

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Talkback

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Did I share this?

There are far too many articles that have two sentences, or are full of problems, or my all-time gripe: new editors who feel the goal here is to start as many articles as possible, (begging for barnstars), and not even considering to finish those stubs at least! There are plenty of other options, as you well know! You're already doing the job, so, why not?? Please join us! Also, I wondered what you were doing and see if you wanted to work on something together? ;) --Leahtwosaints (talk) 00:09, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

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Speedy deletion nomination of Mary Soon Lee

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Speedy deletion nomination of Alexander Outlaw

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Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia. This is a notice to inform you that a tag has been placed on Alexander Outlaw requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A3 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because it is an article with no content whatsoever, or whose contents consist only of external links, a "See also" section, book references, category tags, template tags, interwiki links, images, a rephrasing of the title, or an attempt to contact the subject of the article. Please see Wikipedia:Stub for our minimum information standards for short articles. Also please note that articles must be on notable subjects and should provide references to reliable sources that verify their content.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Click here to contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be removed without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, and you wish to retrieve the deleted material for future reference or improvement, you can place a request here. United States Man (talk) 21:57, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Kind Regards & Big Ask

Hi, thank you for the album cover photo for "Can't Wait to See the Movie" but could you get a better photo i have edited the page massivly and i would like you to do so if you do, I will give you a Barn Star.

Kind Regards

Kind Regards

Thank you anyway :) Kind Regards

Guédon de Presles

Done. My rationale for the Notability tag is that she doesn't have an article on French Wikipedia...which seems very odd if she's that important. Perhaps you should put one there...if I may be bold enough to offer some advice. WQUlrich (talk) 19:59, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:PartingShouldBePainless.jpg

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Thanks for uploading File:PartingShouldBePainless.jpg. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described in the criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 09:20, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

Pete Townshend and The Sun

We can't use tabloids on BLPs. Please don't restore such when they have been removed. If you want to talk about it, let's talk, but don't be tempted to edit-war to restore this material. Thanks, --John (talk) 16:16, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

I give you every benefit of the doubt possible, but if you continue to add tabloid material to a BLP, you will be blocked. Please don't as I'd much rather not do that. --John (talk) 16:20, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

See article talk pages. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pkeets (talk • contribs)

I will do, thanks. --John (talk) 16:22, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

The section had actually drifted away from the agree-upon version. I have now restored that. Changes should not be made without opening the consensus discussion again. Pkeets (talk) 16:26, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

I'm very happy to discuss this with you in article talk towards a compromise, but we cannot use tabloids on a BLP. --John (talk) 16:30, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

John, you don't know what kind of can of worms you're opening with these edits. You really need to read the consensus discussion before you get into this. Point out which "tabloid" you're objecting to, and I'll have a look at it. If this goes much further, I'll contact the other stakholders myself, and you can deal with the whole thing over again. Pkeets (talk) 16:35, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

Please discuss this on the article talk page. This is not just my concern. There are other stakholders. Pkeets (talk) 16:36, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

Is this what you're objecting to? Mohan, Dominic (22 May 2007). "Cops can come and get me". The Sun (London). I can't get to this to check, but as I recall, there was key information there about Townshend's statements on the issue. However, the sentence is double referenced, so I would suggest resolving the issue by restoring the agreed-upon version and removing the Sun reference. Pkeets (talk) 16:44, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

You need to leave a record of this on the article talk pages. 16:49, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

Request

Hi again. Sorry to be picky but you claimed here that I was posting to your talk page but not to the article's talk page. You're posting that right below my comment. Could you possible correct your mistake, and make it a bit clearer what you have copied from user talk? These are the norms of talk page etiquette. Thanks in advance, --John (talk) 17:08, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

Per your recent revert regarding "the/The" in band names

Per your recent revert: "The Who" is correct. It's the name of the band, not "Who."

According to the Wikipedia MoS: Our in-house style guide, the Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Trademarks states:

• "Follow standard English text formatting and capitalization rules, even if the trademark owner considers nonstandard formatting 'official'."

The Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Capital letters#Trademarks states:

• "Trademarks should be written in a way that follows standard English text formatting and capitalization rules."

The Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Music#Capitalization states:

• "Standard English text formatting and capitalization rules apply to the names of bands and individual artists".

The Wikipedia:Manual of Style (music) states that a lower-case definite article should be used in band names:

• "Mid-sentence, per the MoS, the word 'the' should in general not be capitalized in continuous prose, e.g. 'Wings featured Paul McCartney from the Beatles and Denny Laine from the Moody Blues.'"

Wikipedia:Naming conventions (music)#Capitalization states:

• In band names, and titles of songs or albums, capitalize all words except:

• articles (an, a, the)

The Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Capital letters says:

• "Generally do not capitalize the definite article in the middle of a sentence."

All known external style guides recommend using a lower-case definite article mid-sentence, including:

• The Oxford Style Guide (UK): "Beatles, the, a pop group, 1960-1970." (R. M. Ritter, 2003, p.633)
• The Times style and usage guide (UK) says: "Beatles, the, no need to cap the unless at the start of a sentence". (2003, p.24)
• The Guardian and Observer style guide (UK) says: "band names: lc the: the Beatles, the Killers, the The."
• The Chicago Manual of Style (16th edition, US) specifically uses "the Beatles" as an example and states: "A the preceding a name, even when part of the official title, is lowercased in running text." (2010, p.416)
• On page 92 of New Hart's Rules (Oxford, UK) there is a list of examples for the capitalization of names, one is "the Beatles", with a lower-cased definite article. New Hart's Rules also states: "Historians commonly impose minimal capitalisation on institutional references" and "minimise the use of capital initials where there is no detectable difference between the capitaized and the lower-case forms" and "overuse of capital initials is obtrusive, and can even confuse by suggesting false distinctions". (2005, p.90)
• Fowler's Modern English Usage (Oxford, UK), "a festival celebrating the music of the Beatles". (2004, p.293)
• Butcher's Copy-editing (Cambridge, UK) says "in a sentence the definite article should be lower-cased". (2006, p.241) Also in Butcher's: "too many capitals can be obtrusive and distracting for the reader." (p.126)
• The Duke University Style Guide (US) says: "Avoid unnecessary capitals."
• The UPI Style Book & Guide to Newswriting states: "Avoid unnecessary capitals." (Martin, Cook, 2004, p.40)
• From The Copyeditor's Handbook: "down style [lower-case] predominates in book publishing." (Einsohn, 2000, p.151)
• The Christian Writer's Manual of Style states: "The purpose of capitalisation is to show that a given word has a specialised or specific meaning rather than a general one ... avoid capitalisation whenever it is not needed for such purposes of specification". (Hudson, 2010, p.105)
• The Scout Association's style guide (UK) says: "the – Keep as lower case for bands (the Rolling Stones)."
• The Yahoo Style Guide says: "We recommend lowercasing 'the Beatles', except at the beginning of a sentence, for two main reasons: Reason No. 1: expedience. Lowercasing 'the' in every proper name makes life much easier. Reason No. 2: aesthetics. Lowercasing 'the' in every proper name also produces a consistent look—a look that, moreover, conforms to normal English usage. To the Yahoo editors, capitalizing 'the' in the middle of a sentence simply looks odd."

So, you can see that our MoS and every other known MoS suggests that we should not cap the definite article even if part of a band's official name. Any thoughts? GabeMc ^{(talk|contribs)} 17:25, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

Yes. You've got a tough battle to fight if you think you'll change it, MoS or no. 98.240.118.246 (talk) 17:49, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

I think proper nouns are proper nouns, and you can't split them up that way. The band name isn't just a casual reference; it's incorporated and trademarked that way, so you can't change it just as an element of style. Pkeets (talk) 23:22, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

FWIW, the proper noun is here Who; the is a definite article in this usage, not a noun. Not every word within a band name is treated like a noun. E.g. Big Brother and the Holding Company, the Mamas and the Papas, or Band of Gypsys. We don't cap and, the, or of in these names for the same reason that we don't cap the in the Beatles. Question: can you produce even one single style guide that supports your position (I can't)? Why do you think that every guide I cited above directly contradicts you? GabeMc ^{(talk|contribs)} 19:20, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

Capitalization in this case is correct usage to indicate the name of the band. The band is not 'Who' but 'The Who.' If you don't capitalize 'the', people will be unsure of the correct name. Pkeets (talk) 21:56, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

I mean no offense, but your logic is flawed. The sole purpose of an article of speech is to indicate that a noun is to follow. Therefore, the simple fact that there is a the before who is enough linguistically to know that who is a noun; you wouldn't place an article before anything other than a noun. That's a rule of grammar. Again, if you are correct, then why does every known style guide agree with me and none of them agree with you? With all due respect, you are patently wrong. If you weren't, you would certainly be able to provide some respectable style guides to support your position. I searched every known style guide that I could find, and quite literally every single one completely agreed with me; absolutely none (that I know of) agree with you. If this was a dispute regarding spelling we would use a dictionary as the authoritative source, so why are all known style guides wrong and why should all known style guides be ignored in this case? The CMOS uses the Who as an example, and they agree with me. This is a dispute about style, so you really need more than just your personal opinion, right? GabeMc ^{(talk|contribs)} 20:09, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

It's not just my opinion. It's a proper name. All these style guides say that proper names should be capitalized. Pkeets (talk) 05:00, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

I suggest that you should look into a few style guides for yourself, because if you did you would see that I am not making this up. Not every word in a proper name should be treated as a noun. Is that really what you are suggesting here; that every word in a band's name should be treated as if it were a noun? The Chicago Manual of Style (16th edition, US) specifically uses the Who as an example and states: "A the preceding a name, even when part of the official title, is lowercased in running text." (2010, p.416) Is the CMOS wrong? GabeMc ^{(talk|contribs)} 18:13, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

It is. There is always variation between style guides. Proper names, such as companies or trademarks, are identified in text by the capitalization scheme. The legal name for a company like The Who is established through a legal contract, and the trademark is registered with a particular capitalization that becomes part of the trademark. The problem for including these in text is to indicate what the correct company name or trademark is. Leading words for titles, company names and trademarks are therefore capitalized so you can tell where the name begins, regardless of whether they are nouns or articles. Generally the last capitalized word will be taken as the end of the title, name or trademark. No amount of attempting to simplify the English language will erase this necessity. Pkeets (talk) 18:34, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

1) You are absolutely wrong about trademarks, and in fact suggesting that there is some legal obligation to reproduce their trademark is tantamount to a WP:NLT. 2) Even if the CMOS is wrong, we make our own style guide here and it COMPLETELY agrees with CMOS. If CMOS is wrong, then can you please provide an example from a style guide that isn't wrong? GabeMc ^{(talk|contribs)} 18:47, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

According to Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Trademarks: "Follow standard English text formatting and capitalization rules, even if the trademark owner considers nonstandard formatting 'official'." Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Capital letters#Trademarks states: "Trademarks should be written in a way that follows standard English text formatting and capitalization rules." GabeMc ^{(talk|contribs)} 18:59, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

• From the Encyclopedia Britannica: "Though primarily inspired by American rhythm and blues, the Who took a bold step toward defining a uniquely British rock vernacular in the 1960s. Shunning the Beatles’ idealized romance and the Rolling Stones’ cocky swagger, the Who shunned pretension and straightforwardly dealt with teenage travails. At a time when rock music was uniting young people all over the world, the Who were friendless, bitter outsiders." Is Britannica also wrong? GabeMc ^{(talk|contribs)} 19:03, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

Yes. This requires that you know what the correct proper name or trademark is and suggests something erroneous. Try searching for "Who" with a search engine versus "The Who" and notice the difference in what you get. BTW, you know that "who" isn't a noun, right? The only thing that makes this collection of words a proper noun is the full text of the name as the business was established with appropriate capitalization to show what this is. I see at The Chicago Manual of Style Online that copy editors should defer to the wishes of the organization on usage of capitals in proper names of business entities. Here's what Wikipedia says about trademarks: Trademarks that officially begin with a lowercase letter raise several problems because they break the normal capitalization rules of English that trademarks, as proper names, are written with initial capital letters wherever they occur in a sentence. Pkeets (talk) 19:44, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

1) Who, though not normally a noun is being used as a noun in the case. Or is your position that "the" is a noun, but "who" is not in this useage, because if neither "the" nor "who" are nouns, then why would we cap them both? 2) the guideline you cited above states clearly in the lead: "When deciding how to format a trademark, editors should choose among styles already in use by sources (not invent new ones) and choose the style that most closely resembles standard English, regardless of the preference of the trademark owner."(emphasis added) So why do you think that we should break standard typography to honor a TM? GabeMc ^{(talk|contribs)} 19:54, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

"The Who" is a proper noun because it is the name of a business and a trademark. Taken separately, the words are an article and a pronoun, respectively. If you wish to convey meaning as a proper noun, then both words should be capitalized to indicate this. When you break them apart through the process you are describing, then you lose the correct representation of the name. This is the style for the trademark already in use by sources on The Who, which had been continuous since 1964. It's you who is trying to invent a new one. Pkeets (talk) 21:08, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

You absolutely do not need to cap both words in order to convey meaning as a proper noun. What about Band of Gypsys? Should of be capped? Why or why not? Are you suggesting that no reliable sources on the Who use the? See: Anyway, Anyhow, Anywhere: The Complete Chronicle of the WHO 1958-1978 by Andrew Neill, Matthew Kent. GabeMc ^{(talk|contribs)} 21:17, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

Interior prepositions of a proper noun do not need to be capitalized, but the first word is important to show where the name starts. In this case, it's especially important, as this is also the registered trademark of the band. Pkeets (talk) 21:22, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

1) As I have made clear above, according to the Wikipedia MoS, TMs do not dictate typography. Period. You are just flat wrong about that. 2) Is there any particular reason why you cannot provide even one single example from a reliable style guide that supports your position? If you are correct, then certainly there are WP:RSs that support your position, right? GabeMc ^{(talk|contribs)} 21:32, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

The only style guide I have is an ancient copy of Strunk and White which says the first and other important words of a proper name should be capitalized. I'm sure usage is shifting, but the problem remains about how to identify the proper noun in the text, especially for people who may not be native English speakers. You tell me, is the name of this group Who, or The Who? Please support how you will indicate this in the text.Pkeets (talk) 22:04, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

Well, all I can say is that I spent several months searching style guides and I found exactly zero that support your position. I'm not saying that none do, but I'm not aware of any. To answer your question, I don't see any need at all to cap the in order for readers to know that name of the band is the Who. There is absolutely no need to cap the in order to designate that its part of the band's name. I have a copy of Strunk, but I don't see where he indicates his preference for proper names containing an article. In what section does he say that "the first ... words of a proper name should be capitalized"? GabeMc ^{(talk|contribs)} 22:32, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

This is a very old copy of S&W. Let me try another example with an actual noun. Is Bruce Springsteen Boss or The Boss? Pkeets (talk) 22:35, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

Well, I hear you I guess, but I really don't see any need to cap the in order to make it clear that Bruce is the Boss and not just Boss. Look at it this way, a letter left uncapped does not convey a different meaning and its pronounced the same. To say: "In 1970, the Beatles broke-up", does not leave the reader confused anymore than "In 1970, The Beatles broke-up". At least not IMO, and as I have said, literally every style guide that I know of completely agrees with me. If I am wrong, then don't you think there would be several style guides that disagreed with me? BTW, I really appreciate your willingness to discuss this in a polite and civil manner, so thanks! GabeMc ^{(talk|contribs)} 22:44, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, but the lack of caps really does indicate a different meaning. "The" is considered a definite article, and its usage is to point out a specific person or thing. When it's included in a name or nickname, such as "The Boss," then it indicates an elite quality. There has been a huge impetus to simplify usage in all the major languages in the last 50 years, and I'm sure this idea is part of it, but for readers, there really is a difference. Excluding "The" in the band name removes the textual clue and assumes that everyone knows the correct name of the band. I don't think this is a good assumption. Pkeets (talk) 23:19, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

From Rolling Stone: "Along with the Beatles and the Rolling Stones, the Who complete the holy trinity of British rock." and the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame: "From Mod-era 'maximum R&B' to concept albums, rock operas and definitive classic rock tracks, the Who have reigned as one of rock’s most powerful, energetic and literate rock bands." Are they also wrong? GabeMc ^{(talk|contribs)} 23:06, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

Yup. Again, I'm thinking that usage is changing. It's simpler to reduce the number of capitals in a sentence, but it also removes meaning. I'm not in favor of it. Pkeets (talk) 23:21, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

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Speedy deletion nomination of Young-ja Lee

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A tag has been placed on Young-ja Lee requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A7 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be about a band or musician, but it does not indicate how or why the subject is important or significant: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, such articles may be deleted at any time. Please read more about what is generally accepted as notable.

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Johnny Weir

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