Pier1999

Welcome!

Hello, Pier1999, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions, especially your edits to User talk:Binksternet. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few links to pages you might find helpful:

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Please remember to sign your messages on talk pages by typing four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or , and a volunteer should respond shortly. Again, welcome! --David Tornheim (talk) 02:41, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

Reliable sources "RS"

The above is just a template welcome. I suggest you read up on WP:RS which is a [[WP:PAG|guideline]. I have long thought of it as the bedrock and foundation of content and why readers should not dismiss Wikipedia articles as they often do with comments like "Anyone can edit and put anything they want" or "You can't use Wikipedia in a college essay. It's not reliable." Unlike mainstream media, everything must be sourced with reliable sources. If not, we often get rid of it ASAP--especially in the most important articles. --David Tornheim (talk) 02:50, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

I actually linked both academic articles and books and then the NY Times Pier1999 (talk) 02:56, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I know. I just thought your argument could have been stronger if you had read up on that guideline, because I believe many of your sources were more higher quality and/or academic--which are among the best sources and trump mainstream media. --David Tornheim (talk) 03:05, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

please read up on COI

Also, I suggest you read up on WP:COI, which starts "Conflict of interest (COI) editing involves contributing to Wikipedia about yourself, family, friends, clients, employers, or your financial and other relationships." When a new editor shows up very focused on a single subject with particular content they want to add/remove, it often makes other Wikipedia editors wonder if there is WP:COI. I'm not saying you do, but just in case, I wanted to make sure you are aware of the guideline. If you do have a COI, make sure to disclose it--especially before editing an article where you have a COI. --David Tornheim (talk) 01:29, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Tupac

Clearly, you want to see content added to this article vis-a-vis Tupac's purported activist activities, but worry that your efforts may be reverted. That happens. I suggest that you develop content in your Sandbox, along with properly formated references, and only when comfortable, copy all that into the article as a new section. If it gets reverted - very possible - then start a new discussion on the Talk page, invite the person who reverted you and any others with an interest, to try to reach a consensus at the Talk page as to what can be said and what are valid references. David notMD (talk) 11:07, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Read Activism for how to make a case for Art Activism, which I am guessing may apply to Tupac's lyrics? And for defining other actions of his as activism. David notMD (talk) 11:10, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

ok, anyway I have numerous academic sources on Tupac Shakur's activism, also on the cultural impact of his music (but I see that on his page there is already the section with the academic evaluation). I'll do as you said Pier1999 (talk) 12:00, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

As for his activism, befote the page reported that Tupac is a symbol of struggle and activism against injustice, but then in October someone deleted that part. Pier1999 (talk) 12:04, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

against inequalities* Pier1999 (talk) 12:07, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

The text that was added and deleted: "...and he is considered by fans to be a symbol of activism against inequality." The person who reverted it was of the opintion that the two refs provided in support did not qualify. If you intend to add to the article, I suggest doing it as a section in the body of the article - not the Lead (the top portion). David notMD (talk) 03:26, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

I agree with all of this advice. I said quite a lot of the same here:

• Talk:Tupac_Shakur#Activism

Except about the sandbox, which is a good idea for a new editor.--David Tornheim (talk) 04:02, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

in reality it has been written for years that he is considered to be a symbol of activism against inequality. Then "by the fans" was added and then everything was deleted. anyway I will follow your suggestion, I will open a new section on his Wikipedia page Pier1999 (talk) 08:05, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Remember

Please remember to follow WP:BRD. If an editor reverts anything you do, discuss on talk page and try to form a WP:CONSENSUS. I'm not saying you forgot this. I just noticed that some of your work got reverted and new editors often take offense and try to revert back, which is not a good idea.--David Tornheim (talk) 19:52, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Thanks so much, I'll keep it in mind. Pier1999 (talk) 19:57, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

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Tupac songwriter

I disagree with your reasoning and will continue to remove songwriter from the lead. Just because he wrote his own songs does not mean it was a "main occupation" of his or should be considered an occupation that he made money from. You're saying the fact other music artists don't have this in the lead of their article doesn't matter, and I also disagree. So therefore until settled by another editor, this will be considered an edit war because I will continue to remove your edits. Darrencdm1988 (talk) 00:42, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't understand one thing: but what does it change to you if it says songwriter or not? It's been months since it wrote songwriter and no one has complained. So do we need to remove songwriters from all artist pages? Why shouldn't Tupac be written? Pier1999 (talk) 00:48, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Before edit war, let's discuss. No need for an edit war. I want to understand why on Tupac's page there can't be written songwriter, this is written in the lead of many artists. Why can't Tupac be written? What's different for you? Tupac is considered one of the best songwriters in the history of music, Eminem considers him the greatest songwriter ever, Nas said in an interview that Tupac was better than Shakespeare. Songwriter is written in the lead of many pop stars whose lyrics are quite banal and do not have the literary complexity of Tupac's. Pier1999 (talk) 00:53, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Every hip hop artist I have researched that wrote their own songs does not have this in the lead. Tupac did not write songs for other artists that I know of, so it shouldn't be considered an occupation he profited from much less a main occupation of his. Eminem, Notorious B.I.G., Jay-Z, Nas etc. would all have to be changed to suit your whims of adding this in the lead on Tupac's article. That's how I see it. Darrencdm1988 (talk) 01:24, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Songwriter doesn't just mean who writes songs for others, it also means who writes their own songs. For example, on the page of Kendrick Lamar, Kanye West and Lil Wayne it is written. Why shouldn't it be written in Tupac's? For example, on the page of Bono of U2 and Nina Simone, there is also an activist in the lead. Yet these are not two of their main activities, they are above all artists. Why should only Tupac's page say only rapper? When he was also a poet, activist, songwriter and actor. Pier1999 (talk) 01:39, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

It's not about tantrums, so according to your reasoning we have to take away songwriter from Kendrick Lamar, Kanye West and Lil Wayne as well. Right? Pier1999 (talk) 01:50, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't agree with you, following your reasoning then we should take Songwriter off the lead of all the rappers who have it because Jay-Z, Eminem and Biggie don't have that in the lead. Wikipedia should be an information site, not a personal information site. When I've edited the lead several times, the admins have praised my edits, so songwriter needs to be written. Your reasoning has nothing to do with it, so if we take away songwriters from Tupac, we have to take it away from all artists. Pier1999 (talk) 01:55, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Until settled, this will be an indefinite edit war. That's the end of it from my perspective. Darrencdm1988 (talk) 02:35, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

This was not in the lead of the article until you added it recently. It's your opinion only. Darrencdm1988 (talk) 02:37, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

It's actually not true, it has been in the lead of the article for at least two months and a few days ago it was removed. Check the changes Pier1999 (talk) 02:41, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Tupac's article was created in 2005, so it is true that it was added recently. Darrencdm1988 (talk) 02:44, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

So, precisely it was added by me 26 days ago and was removed for the first time yesterday. You can check the changes to the page. Pier1999 (talk) 02:45, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

As I stated, it was not in the lead of the article until you added it recently. It is your opinion only. The article has been on Wikipedia since 2005. Darrencdm1988 (talk) 02:47, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

It was actually written before, even years ago, then it was changed several times. First it was written on the page that Tupac was a symbol of activism against inequality and then it was removed. In the past other people had written songwriters, you can go into the edits. It was actually written before, even years ago, then it was changed several times. First it was written on the page that Tupac was a symbol of activism against inequality and then it was removed. In the past other people had written songwriters, you can go into the edits. It was actually written before, even years ago, then it was changed several times. First it was written on the page that Tupac was a symbol of activism against inequality and then it was removed. In the past other people had written songwriter, you can go into the edits. Pier1999 (talk) 02:53, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Then we have a disagreement on whether it belongs in the lead of the article. Simple as that. Darrencdm1988 (talk) 03:03, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Of course, basically Tupac's lead is always changing, it changes every six months. While the other artists' leads always remain the same, which is a strange thing. Then there are often edit wars on the page. That said, what does it make to you if songwriter is written in the lead or not? At least that should be written, other artists have written all the occupations in the lead, even if they are secondary occupations. Pier1999 (talk) 03:38, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

@David Tornheim I ask you to intervene because there is a user here who is making an edit war. Remove songwriter from Tupac's lead just because in his personal opinion he shouldn't be put. When in reality Tupac is considered one of the best songwriters ever Pier1999 (talk) 03:46, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

I had to tag an admin because you're making edit wars and editing a page that doesn't make any sense. According to your logic, Kendrick Lamar and Lil Wayne should also be stripped of songwriter in the lead. Pier1999 (talk) 03:49, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

You are willfully engaging in an edit war as well. Don't put it off on me and act like you are not playing a part. That's what this entire thing is about, really. You are acting like your opinion is supreme. I have never noticed this in the lead before and have been editing this article for years, so if it was there before I am not the only one who has removed it. Others disagree with you as well. Darrencdm1988 (talk) 04:11, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Moved to Talk:Tupac Shakur § Previous discussion #1 on user talk page that should probably be here instead

--David Tornheim (talk) 04:33, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Discuss article content on article talk page first

Please make sure to discuss article content on the article talk page rather than the user's talk page. You seem to be in the habit of doing that with at least four different users 10 May 2024, 20 April 2024, 18 April 2024, 24 March 2024. Other editors will not know to look at those users' talk pages and know about any discussion you have had there or on your own talk page. If the editor is behaving badly and you are warning them, then one does use the user's talk page. But really you need to start with the article talk page first--in all four of those cases.

And again, I recommend you follow my advice from before: (1) Work on other articles, or you may be accused of being a WP:SPA. I guess you don't have to do this, but I think it will help you in the long-run to understand how things work here. (2) Focus on using WP:RS to ground your arguments. A long time ago, you asked for help, and I asked you to make a table of WP:RS. I don't know why you have not done this. Is it because you don't know how to make a table? --David Tornheim (talk) 05:18, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

sorry, you're right Pier1999 (talk) 05:21, 10 May 2024 (UTC)