Pat457

Welcome, at last

Hi Pat457. I can't believe no-one's been over to welcome you to Wikipedia yet! A very belated welcome, therefore, but more than that, my thanks for the great work you've been doing recently to expand the Takeminakata article. I won't bother with the usual welcome links - it's evident that you already know what you're doing - but suffice to say it's good to have you here, and I hope you're enjoying editing. Feel free to drop me a line on my own talkpage if you ever need a hand. Yunshui ^雲_水 11:15, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

		The Original Barnstar
		For doing sterling work in expanding, sourcing and generally improving improving the article Takeminakata. Yunshui 雲水 11:15, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

Good article promotion

Hi Pat457. I see that you've been continuing to improve and expand the Takeminakata article. It now looks as though it may only be a short way from meeting the criteria for a Good Article (a classification used to identify articles on Wikipedia which represent some of the site's best work). I am considering putting forward a nomination and editing the page to bring it in line with the GA requirements, but would like to discuss it with you first. Would you be happy to have an article on which you've done most of the work brought to GA standard?

If you aren't familiar with the process, the article would have to meet the specific Good Article criteria, and would undergo scrutiny from one or two uninvolved editors who would assess it against these criteria. If you want to get an idea of how the process normally works, you are welcome to take a look at the discussions at Talk:Bonshō/GA1, Talk:Xue Susu/GA1 or Talk:Morihei Ueshiba/GA1 (examples of Good Articles that I've promoted in the past) to see how a discussion might develop.

If you're interested, please let me know (either here or on my talkpage and I will get the process started. All the best, Yunshui ^雲_水 14:29, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

Hi, Mr. Yunshui. Thank you very much for the welcome and apologies for the belated reply. Yes, I'm interested in having the article brought to GA standard, although at the same time I do have a few thoughts (and worries, really) re. the article.

(1) I'm a tad frustrated with how there isn't much English-language information available about Takeminakata/Suwa-myōjin, especially in the context of folk beliefs in Suwa. As you might notice, many of the citations I added are in Japanese. I haven't seen any English translation yet of stuff like the Suwa-daimyōjin ekotoba or the Ise Fudoki (the bit about Isetsuhiko). (I was just thinking, maybe we can have someone fluent in classical Japanese or classical Chinese translate bits of them for us?)

(2) Speaking of citations, some sources that I would want to check for myself are also not always readily available to me, because they're either out of print, prohibitively expensive for my wallet, or tucked away in a library or museum somewhere. (For example Lisa Grumbach's dissertation Sacrifice and salvation in medieval Japan: hunting and meat in religious practice at Suwa Jinja)

(3) This is more along the lines of a question, but is it acceptable to cite this website (http://yatsu-genjin.jp/suwataisya/index.htm)? It is a personal webpage, but it is pretty much one of the most comprehensive source about Suwa-taisha I can find on the internet (written by a local of the area, no less). I cited it a number of times, so if it's not acceptable I'll remove it.

(4) I'm still planning to add a bit more information to the article, but at this rate it might be getting a little too long and bloated. I may need some help in trimming it down.

(5) Another question. I've been reading Wikipedia:Videos as references#YouTube videos as references and just wondered, there's this videotaped talk by Sanae Moriya (守矢早苗) where she talks about the local beliefs in Suwa. (For instance, here's the bit where she talks about a legend about Moreya (Moreya-senin) passed down within the family, and this one is where she touches upon the Takeminakata vs. Moreya myth. Yes, they're in Japanese, sorry.)

Again, thank you very much. I'll try my best to improve the article further. Pat457 (talk) 17:17, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

I'm glad to hear you're up for the challenge (although given the work you've already done, it's less of a challenge than you might imagine...). With regards to the points above:

1. Japanese sources (per WP:NONENG) are totally acceptable, but as you say, translation would be needed. Curly Turkey has always been my go-to guy for assistance with Japanese sources (plus he's very au fait with the GA process too); CT, would you fancy pitching in on Takeminakata?
2. There's help available at WP:REX for getting access to paywalled or archived material; it's entirely possible that someone there will be able to get hold of things that are otherwise somewhat tricky to find, especially if you already know where the source is located online. If you put together a list of those sources that you know about but can't access, I'll put a request in there for you.
3. Not sure about this source - I should point out here and now that my Japanese is rudimentary to say the least, and so I can't be sure whether the author of this text would count as an established expert on the subject (which would make the source acceptable under WP:SPS). I think this is one for the reviewer to address in the GA discussion itself, but it couldn't hurt to find some alternative sources for the text it currently verifies.
4. We can address the length of the article during review - one of the advantages of having a couple of people working on a GA review is that it's much easier to trim and copyedit other people's text (I find it hard to edit things I've written myself). Between us, we should have no problem keeping the article at a manageable size.
5. IMHO this is probably a perfectly acceptable source, but again, this would end up being a matter for the reviewer. Given that it's an excerpt from a televised lecture by a local officeholder, I think it ticks the appropriate boxes.

Going forward, you don't need to change what you're doing at all - just carry on making improvements. I'll put the nomination forward at WP:GAN (since it can sometimes take several weeks to get a reviewer, I usually find it's best to do this early in the process) and you can expect to see me making edits to the page to try and bring it closer to the GA guidelines. To avoid edit conflicts, I'll do my best to do this when you're not working on the article yourself. If in the process I remove something you think should stay in (or add something you feel is incorrect, irrelevant or not useful) feel free to revert me without explanation; I'm happy to play second fiddle on this.

Looking forward to working with you. Yunshui ^雲_水 10:16, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

I can help out, but what are you thinking of? I assume GA cleanup, because it sounds like translation help isn't what's needed. You don't have to worry about using J-sources, Pat45—I've done plenty of articles that use nothing but. I don't know anything about the subject, though—didn't even know about Suwa taisha, though I'm usually in the area a couple times a year (we had dinner at a place by Suwako this New Year's Eve).

I wouldn't worry about the length—it's at 20kb of readable prose, and a thorough copyedit will probably bring that down considerably.

That website probably won't be considered WP:RS—the writer doesn't seem to have even put up their real name. I don't know what to say about the video—it appears to be a YouTube channel, and I can't find anything that refers to it but blogs. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 11:00, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

Thank you both for the replies. Yes, I might probably be thinking about cleanup and trimming the article down, but I also wanted someone to check whether my translations of quotes (such as from the Ekotoba) is accurate. I'm in Japan and know the language, but I don't really have that much faith in my Classical Japanese and Classical Chinese (learned the basics in high school and have only done a little legwork since then).

Re.: The website: the writer is indeed writing under a pseudonym, as he explains here: http://yatsu-genjin.jp/genjin/8genjin.htm. I only brought the website up though because the author does describe and refer to/cite sources that I otherwise can't find on the internet (at least from a casual search). For example, the 神長守矢氏系譜 (Jinchō Moriya-shi keifu). And to the best of my knowledge, while being a personal website - and thus, showing the author's bias - it's probably the only website that delves into the religious traditions of the area in depth. At least, one I know that doesn't devolve into theories such as those claiming that Suwa-taisha was actually founded by the biblical Israelites or something. That's just what I feel though; I leave the judgment to others.

(Now I have a feeling that many of these primary sources might be found in the multi-volume 諏訪史料叢書 Suwa shiryō-sōsho ("Series of historical materials on Suwa"), but only volumes 25-28 and 30-31 are available for viewing on the NDL Digital Collections website.)

Re.: Youtube channel: The channel is mainly dedicated to introducing various Shinto shrines in Japan, as well as some of the religious ceremonies held in them. In terms of reliability, I think this might more reliable than the website, since all the channel owner does is shoot videos of ceremonies and shrines and maybe insert a rare comment about them, etc. (Since we're talking about Suwa, a few related examples:)

• the Genshi-sai (元始祭) held in Moriya Shrine (洩矢神社) this January - just 30 minutes of the ceremony being videotaped.
• The head Mishaguji shrine at the Moriya family residence.
• The ritual of transfer (遷座祭 sensa-zai) at the Lower Suwa Shrine or Shimosha; in this case, the goddess Yasakatome (the shrine's deity) is being ceremonially transferred from the Akimiya (秋宮) to the Harumiya (春宮)

As for the video, the owner of the channel (Mr. Yūichirō Seki - I assume that's his real name) has recorded a talk by Sanae Moriya that was held in Okaya City last year. In the description here claims to have had permission to post it on Youtube: 「今回は、橋原区の区民の為の講演となっています 基本は橋原区民に向けての講演となっていますが、映像を全国、全世界配信のyoutubeに掲載する許可を取ってあります。」

Pat457 (talk) 15:59, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

P.S. This is more along the lines of how to handle information, but a question re. Suwa-myōjin:

The current official position is that Suwa-myōjin and Takeminakata are one and the same (i.e. Suwa-myōjin is Takeminakata's title as god of Suwa), but as noted in the article, Suwa-myōjin in reality seems to be more a fusion of Takeminakata and a local deity (Mishaguji), with the local element predominating (if the religious rites of Suwa - sacrifice of frogs and deer heads, divination using gruel, and the wooden pillars or onbashira erected on the shrines of the region - are any indication). In addition, some sources[1][2][3]https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=gqs-y9R2AekC&pg=PA267%7C3] instead identify Suwa-myōjin as being Kōga Saburō (甲賀三郎), a figure from local folklore who was said to have turned into a snake/dragon when he went into and came back from the Underworld.

For the sake of completeness I want to include this information in some way in the article, but I'm not entirely sure where and how to put it. Got any ideas? Pat457 (talk) 16:44, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

I can understand that, but "reliable" has a special meaning in WP:RS, and calling something not an RS doesn't mean it's "unreliable" per se. Do you live near the site? Do you think you can ask someone there to point you to sources? These places often have a library or something, or might know where you can get your hands on something. Or maybe they could confirm that the videos are "reliable" in WP:RS's sense (perhaps they've published them on DVD or something). Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 04:49, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

I see. No, I don't live in Suwa (or Nagano, for that matter) so I don't have the luxury of checking things out for myself (if all goes well, I might try going there within this year though). I'll try searching my local libraries first when I'm free and see if they have anything re. Suwa. Pat457 (talk) 11:53, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Regarding the many faces of Suwa-myōjin, my suggestion would be to perhaps include a couple of sentences noting these additional traditions in the section about that name. However, you don't want to give too much weight to it - it's rather tangential to the article's main topic. Yunshui ^雲_水 09:06, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Also, thanks for alerting me to rice gruel divination - that's an article now! Yunshui ^雲_水 10:22, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Good idea! For the record I'm thinking about moving the explanation of the term myōjin to its own article. As it is, I feel it's kinda also tangential to the main topic. Pat457 (talk) 11:53, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

P.S. Made it: Myōjin. Pat457 (talk) 15:57, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Also have just created Moreya. Pat457 (talk) 23:50, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

P.P.P.S. Speaking of which, I'm also thinking about to giving the kuni-yuzuri myth(s) an article of its own. Or would you do the honors? Pat457 (talk) 06:58, 17 February 2017 (UTC)

The Shinto prehistory of Suwa is proving quite a rich source of material, isn't it? I'm just dipping in and out of Wikipedia today (won't be devoting a solid block of time to it until Monday, and I've got some work to do on Morihei Ueshiba then) but I think there could be some merit in a standalone kuni-yuzuri article if you want to get the ball rolling on it. Yunshui ^雲_水 09:36, 17 February 2017 (UTC)

Sorry, I wasn't getting around to making the kuni-yuzuri article either because I've been busy making and editing related pages, namely Moreya, Suwa clan, Isetsuhiko, and Suwa taisha. (Can I ask you to also review these when and if you have time?) Pat457 (talk) 05:49, 5 March 2017 (UTC)

Kuni-yuzuri is on my to-do list, but like you, I've found myself otherwise occupied these last couple of weeks. Lovely work on those four articles; you're doing a sterling job filling in the blanks on Suwa-related mythology. I especially liked the article on Moreya, which is a splendid bit of encyclopedic writing. If you haven't done so already, you may want to consider joining WikiProject Japan; it's a good place to find other editors who are working on Japan-related articles and also contains some useful style and structure guidelines. Yunshui ^雲_水 11:04, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

Kuni-yuzuri

This is now an article, although I confess it's mostly a direct copy of your work on Takeminakata (duly noted in the edit summaries per WP:CWW, of course), so you rather deserve the credit for it. Yunshui ^雲_水 11:09, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

Wow, you really picked that up and ran with it... Thank you very much for your substantial improvements. Yunshui ^雲_水 13:09, 13 March 2017 (UTC)

Based on your expansion, I've nominated the page for a slot at DYK? - don't be overly surprised if other editors rock up to thank you as well! Yunshui ^雲_水 13:39, 13 March 2017 (UTC)

You're welcome! Pat457 (talk) 08:46, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

Suwa Beliefs

I was just thinking about a couple of things and would like some feedback.
(1) Could the religious beliefs and practices of the Suwa region (Suwa-shinkō) have a navigation box of its own?
(2) Re. Suwa-myōjin: I was wondering whether we should make an article about Suwa-myōjin separate from that of Takeminakata. As it currently is, discussing Suwa-myōjin in the context of Takeminakata is kind of a little (I don't know the word) ... limiting? Sure, Suwa-myōjin = Takeminakata is the standard position nowadays, but in light of the whole complicated history of the region's belief system (not to mention all those conflicting myths and legends just about who Suwa-myōjin is supposed to be), maybe it's better to separate these into two articles?

Just passing by and spotted this - while I'm not really going to offer an answer I can at least offer some advice. My initial thoughts are: a tentative yes to the former (although we'd need a Shuwa-shinko article first...) but probably no to the latter, although that's just because I'm more of a lumper than a splitter - other editors would probably be in favour. However, not a lot of people watch this talkpage (in fact there are only three; one is me, and one is almost certainly you...) so you aren't likely to get much engagement here. A better way to instigate a discussion would be to post on the talkpage of one of the pages in question: Talk:Takeminakata is the obvious place to discuss splitting off an article on Suwa-myōjin, for example. As to the navbox, you can simply go ahead and create one; if anyone objects, then you can start a conversation about it. If you want a hand building such a thing, let me know. Yunshui ^雲_水 11:43, 30 March 2017 (UTC)

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A barnstar for you!

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Harada on the Heart Sutra

I have just posted on my blog a detailed refutation of the argument of Harada on the Heart Sutra that you outlined a couple of years ago. I've been quite thorough. Best Wishes. Jayarava (talk) 12:20, 13 September 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up! Much appreciated. Pat457 (talk) 08:13, 1 November 2019 (UTC)

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Ōkuninushi

I noticed you added content there about Ōkuninushi being the god of love and marriage, particularly in this set of edits in late May 2020. The Japanese page at ja:大国主 has nothing to say about any duties over love and marriage, specifically stating instead that Ōkuninushi is the 国造りの神、農業神、薬神、禁厭の神 (kunizukuri no kami, nōgyōshin, yakushin, kin'yō no kami: "god of nationbuilding, god of agriculture, god of medicine, god of protective magic"). I'm updating the English article infobox to match that.

Cheers, ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 19:10, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

I based that off of certain shrines enshrining Ōkuninushi touting the god as a patron of enmusubi (縁結び / えんむすび, "fate/tie-binding", i.e. linking two people together as a couple), for example Izumo Taisha or Jishu Shrine in Kyoto or Kanda Myōjin, which I suppose comes from his romantic escapades and his many wives and children in mythology. (To be fair, the whole issue of 'which god presides over which' is a kind of fuzzy issue when it comes to Shinto, especially in all-too-common benefits like enmusubi or yakuyoke.) I'm planning to address this in a future edit (when I get around to it) but until then I'll leave the infobox as is for now. Pat457 (talk) 11:34, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

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