Metalsonic89

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August 2020

Stop adding Sega Retro as a source. It is a fansite and not a usable source on Wikipedia. I don’t object to your other sources, I just keep reverting them because you keep making so many changes in a single edit. Please stop, or your edits will just keep being undone by editors who know better. Thanks. Sergecross73 msg me 22:35, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

Excuse me, but no one had a problem with this until you just now. I don't care what website the scans are on - Sonic Retro just so happens to try to provide proper sources to many release dates that Wikipedia often does not. If you want to reformat the references to cite the magazines themselves, so be it, but to fully revert into what is knowingly a sourceless, incorrect date (including the recent Zombies Ate My Neightbors revert, which tells me you did not even bother to read the other reference) is, frankly, appalling editing. Metalsonic89 (talk) 22:38, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

So what? Just because I’m the only one calling you out doesn’t mean I’m wrong. Ask WT:VG. It’s not acceptable to source scans on a fansite. The fansites don’t have the legal right to host the magazine, and we don’t know whether or not these unreliable sources are trustworthy to replicate the scans without error or altercation. This is one of those times where you’ve got to ask yourself why no one else has already added these easily accessible sources for these mainstream games. There’s a reason. They’re not considered reliable. Sergecross73 msg me 22:46, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

Again, if you want to rewrite the sources to cite the magazines themselves, go right ahead and do so. I will only say is that it's a pointless waste of time everyone's time to revert information you know is correct. Metalsonic89 (talk) 22:52, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

You made these edits. The WP:BURDEN is on you to do it right. Fix your own mistakes. Sergecross73 msg me 22:56, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

I really don't have time for this, but fine, I'll do it later; in the meantime, for future reference, you don't have to hit the revert button when most of the edit itself is otherwise sound. To answer your question: it's hardly better when sites like GameFAQs and MobyGames are cited for release dates, because they themselves are often subject to user contributions, yet I notice a lot of editors tend to default to places like them anyway. Metalsonic89 (talk) 23:07, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

All you have to do is not make so many changes in a single edit. Split them up into more smaller edits so they can be reverted individually. And regardless of what “other editors do”, it doesn’t make it right. You can go over the speed limit every day on the highway on the way to work and not get caught, but that still won’t help as a defense if the police pull you over one day for speeding. Same concept here. It’s only “okay” until you get caught. Sergecross73 msg me 23:55, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

That personally looks annoying as it would flood the page history, but I digress. Before I proceed, can you point me to where exactly it says that scans are not referenceable? You cite verifiability, but to me, verifiability means having that source be a click away to future-proof against editors that wouldn't know any better. Many of these defunct, unprofitable magazines are already used for reception and review scores. Additionally, I take it from here that while fansites "usually" do not qualify as a reliable source, they may have certain content worth citing. I think I make it abundantly clear in my edits that I am primarily citing the magazines, not Sonic Retro themselves, so this seems more like a grey area unless I'm missing something. Metalsonic89 (talk) 15:59, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

As I said, the problem is two-fold.

• One is that fansites are not generally reliable, and the WP:BURDEN would be on you to prove that Sega Retro was some sort of exception to the rule. (And not by saying something like “they write good though!”. Generally you’d have to prove that they have the traits of a reliable source. Do they have an editorial team? Editorial policy? Writers with actual credentials relevant to writing/journalism? Writers who have written for other professional publications? The answer is generally going to be no, because fansites rarely employee professional writer. Their main “credentials” are usually “bring a lifelong video game fan” or something, which is not a valid credential in Wikipedia standards.)
• The other problem is that it’s simply not their content to host. They did not create or own that magazine scan. They don’t have the legal right to host it. It’s not their info, so you shouldn’t be citing them. (Nor do we know if this unofficial source is accurately or completely replicating the info, especially because it’s just an amateur fansite.)

I’m more than happy to involve WP:VG in all this, but it would be a lot easier and less of a time sink if you’d just stop citing fansites and move on. Sergecross73 msg me 14:12, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, part of the reason I've been unavailable is because I've been too busy outside of Wikipedia, part of the reason is because I genuinely wanted to see an actual written rule so that this grievance doesn't come across as a judgment call on your part, which would be simple and done with if you can cite it. I sincerely think the concern you seem to have - that these uploaded scans are intentionally tampered with(?!?) - is wholly imagined, because you sincerely need to ask yourself, who in the right mind would benefit from a situation so ludicrous? Especially from the more obscure scans no one is putting to good use. Frankly, I would be very shocked if other editors are not resorting to online scans whether they are being transparent about it or not - they're certainly not splurging money on physical copies just to find review scores and release dates and whatnot for something they're editing out of their own free time. Again, at least I have done something that is verifiable - text that leads to nowhere observable doesn't do it for every reader. And once again, there is no need to completely revert perfectly valid information - 95% is still an "A", not an "F" - otherwise you only look like you're appealing to tradition. If you're more than happy to involve WP:VP, go right ahead, I'd prefer situations like this be considered and put into the record for future reference. Meanwhile, I have time to make the appropriate (apparently hard) adjustments. Also: I did "stop citing fansites" after this discussion was initiated. Metalsonic89 (talk) 18:20, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for making the changes. Sergecross73 msg me 19:51, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

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