User talk:Kbb2/Archive 4

another question about the syllable onsets

does it count as a valid onset if there is a foreign word which has this onset? like for example /rk/ is not valid in Russian but there is Ркацители LICA98 (talk) 03:02, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

@LICA98: If it only appears in loanwords then it's a non-native onset. If what you're saying is true, that is. I wouldn't transcribe any native instances of /rk/ as syllable-initial, transcribe them [rˈk] instead. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 10:25, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

where do you set the border between loanwords and non-loanwords then, for example all words that start with дж are loanwords afaik but there is a lot of them and many of them are used often (джип, джинсы) so it would be kinda absurd to consider /d͡ʐ/ as invalid

maybe it's just when there is 1-2 words then it's invalid LICA98 (talk) 00:59, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

@LICA98: I didn't say it was invalid, I said it was non-native. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 01:04, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

doesn't make a difference if it shouldn't be transcribed as word-initial... so according to that logic /d͡ʐ/ should be transcribed /dˈʐ/

btw what is the point of this rule that you can't write ˈ before an invalid onset, why can't it just follow the syllable break or always go after the previous vowel LICA98 (talk) 01:36, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

@LICA98: It shouldn't be transcribed as word-initial in native words. Not in all cases.

It shouldn't. /d/ isn't a valid syllable in Russian.

The point is phonological. It's just how the language works, and it does adhere to syllable breaks, which can be put only in certain places (so that, for instance, they don't suggest invalid syllable onsets). Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 01:52, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

so you wanna say that for example дж in аджика should be /ˈd͡ʐ/ and in поджечь /dˈʐ/?

for example Моск-ва: why is it /mɐˈskva/ and not /mɐskˈva/ (the way it's broken into syllables) LICA98 (talk) 02:16, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

@LICA98: Actually /d͡ʐ/ is a completely wrong transcription. There's no such affricate in Russian, it's a sequence of /d/ and /ʐ/ with /d/ having a phonetic affricated release due to the following fricative. As such, it should be transcribed /dˈʐ/ whenever possible.

You're too focused on the "why's". We've already established that /skv/ is a possible onset in Russian, no? Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 08:19, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

but why is it not transcribed the way it's broken into syllables? LICA98 (talk) 16:08, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

@LICA98: Perhaps because phonological syllables don't work exactly the same way as the orthographic ones. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 16:12, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Belgian Dutch phonology

Kbb2, the reason that I posted a consonant chart of Belgian Standard Dutch is simply to show a difference in the consonant sounds of BSD with Standard Dutch. I posted it to show the public what the sounds of the Belgian dialect are. I understand your point in that it is almost the same, but there is a difference. Belgian Dutch is not a separate language, but a dialect, and yes, it is worth displaying the consonant chart of that. Fdomanico51997 (talk) 17:26, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

@Fdomanico51997: There's no difference. On the phonological level Belgian Standard Dutch is the same as Northern Standard Dutch, unless we're talking about very minor differences such as the presence of /ɡ/ in loanwords (Belgian use the fricative /ɣ/). Other than that, they're the same. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 17:38, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

Local Catalan pronunciation

What do you mean by not covered on Help:IPA/Catalan)? How does that justify deleting the local pronunciation of Valderrobres (among many other names)? Regards. --Jotamar (talk) 14:36, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

@Jotamar: Help:IPA/Catalan covers only Standard Catalan and the local Valencian standard. We shouldn't give the illusion that just because some local transcription is accidentally fully covered by that guide it means that the local accent of Valderrobres is covered in its entirety there. Even if that were the case (which, to be honest, I have no idea whether it is as I don't know Catalan that well), Wikipedia is WP:NOTADICTIONARY. We shouldn't provide more than one Catalan IPA per article unless it's absolutely necessary, and when we provide that one transcription it should be in Standard Catalan (or, whenever appropriate, Standard Valencian) because that's what an average conscious reader of Catalan IPA would expect. And even if he wouldn't, using other accent instead of SC (or SV) would probably be a breach of WP:NPOV as no accent is as prestigious/neutral as SC. I said in many other edit summaries that editors are absolutely free to put the local IPA on Wiktionary if they so choose, but WP isn't a pronunciation dictionary of Catalan. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 14:46, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

I think you have a serious misunderstanding of what standard language means: you're using a high-school-like simplification of that concept. What exists primarily is a written standard, and then a number of pronunciations that can be more or less unmarked depending on the situation. No serious linguistic work will define a standard pronunciation in such simplistic terms as many WP pages do. For instance, it has been proved that the so-called General American accent doesn't exist, or at least is far more variable than the popular perception of it. --Jotamar (talk) 15:19, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

On the other hand, have you really read Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not a dictionary? Because I'm afraid it doesn't back any of your changes. The guideline is about what entries are valid as WP pages, not about the pages content. What you are interpreting is that WP pages can have any kind of info except lexicographic info, and of course no guideline says that. --Jotamar (talk) 15:19, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

@Jotamar: See Catalan language#Phonology.

If you want to remove Valencian from the guide and replace all pronunciations with SC, I have no objections. If you can provide a source that says that Catalan has no pronunciation standard and all its dialects are equal, go ahead. We have two sources that state that SC is the most prestigious, which are Feldhausen (2010) and the Handbook of the IPA (1999).

Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not a dictionary#Not size is probably the most precise section. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 15:29, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

I can't see how Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not a dictionary#Not size justifies deleting lexicographic info; moreover, the section aptly points out that m:Wikipedia is not paper. --Jotamar (talk) 15:57, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

As for Standard Catalan, you don't seem to understand my point: any standard pronunciation is basically a mirage. --Jotamar (talk) 15:57, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

Also, you are apparently forgetting that WP is not a source of WP, and no page in WP can be modified just because of what some other WP page says. --Jotamar (talk) 15:57, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

@Jotamar: Fair enough. What justifies including it? WP isn't a pronunciation dictionary of Catalan.

They are models. You can call them a necessary evil in language teaching (which is what we're doing when we provide IPA for a Catalan name - we teach a fraction of Catalan to the non-native speakers).

According to WP:MOSPRON, transcriptions linking to Help:IPA/XXX guides should agree with those guides.

It'd be better if you took this to Help talk:IPA/Catalan so that more editors could participate in the discussion. Most of them don't watch my talk page. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 16:35, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

Why include it? For many editors, probably more than what you think, the relevant question is: why NOT include it? WP isn't a lot of things, and at the same time IS a lot of things. Look, I don't have much time to discuss right now. I suggest that you raise the question for example in Wikipedia:Village pump (policy), to get the opinion of experienced editors. Cheers. --Jotamar (talk) 15:07, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

@Jotamar: I'm not in a hurry, I can wait until you have more time. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 15:48, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

Some discussions you might be interested in

Based on your edits, I thought you might be interested in some discussions currently taking place, so I thought I'd make you aware of them if you aren't already:

User talk:DrVogel#Reporting User:Maczkopeti

User talk:Libhye#‎Reversions of other users

Your input would be greatly appreciated (no matter your opinions). Libhye (talk) 21:22, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

Pronunciation of Helsingfors

Hi, you changed the IPA of Helsingfors at Helsinki to match the pronunciation of Sweden Swedish. Why? There had been consensus on the talk page that the Finnish standard pronunciation is to be used. I will now revert it to Swedish pronunciation: [helsiŋˈfors] as that is the pronunciation used in Finland. If you can somehow justify using the Central Swedish pronunciation, go on. --Qwerty12302 (talk | contributions) 16:49, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

@Qwerty12302: Because there's no consensus to add Finland Swedish to Help:IPA/Swedish and, per WP:PRON, transcriptions linking to Help:IPA/X guides should match them. FS isn't a neutral variety of Swedish, unlike Central Standard Swedish. It doesn't have contrastive tonal accents nor retroflexes and FS transcriptions aren't convertible into the CSS ones, which isn't true the other way around.

Because of that, I'd ask you to revert once again so that the variety represented in the transcription is CSS. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 16:55, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

Done. Well, I cannot blame you on the guidelines, but I'd prefer giving the pronunciation in slashes, not square brackets, to show that it is just a phonemic transcription. Furthermore, what exactly do you mean with that FS isn't "neutral"? It is very well standardized. --Qwerty12302 (talk | contributions) 17:02, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

@Qwerty12302: Thanks.

If we used slashes then we'd have to write /rs/ instead of [ʂː] because there's no */ʂ/ in Swedish, let alone a lengthened one (AFAIK there are no phonemic geminates in Swedish, it's the vowel length that's considered to be phonemic in most analyses).

It's not neutral because the pronunciation with [rs] would sound strange in Sweden (and Norway too by the way). Correct me if I'm wrong, but the pronunciation with [rs] (or [ɾs]) is strongly regional, something you wouldn't say of [ʂː], [ʀs] or [ʁs], which all are more widely used and are more acceptable in the Swedish-speaking Europe as a whole. To me, providing a strongly regional pronunciation instead of the most widely acceptable one seems to be at odds with WP:NPOV. We shouldn't teach Finland Swedish to non-native speakers of Swedish unless they know what they're learning. Typically, when you learn Swedish you learn it with the Central Standard pronunciation which is considered to be the most neutral accent. We shouldn't deviate from that by only providing FS IPA, especially when you can convert the CSS IPA into FS just by not reading the transcription literally. If someone truly wants to learn Finland Swedish (for whatever reason), I'm sure there's enough teaching material online. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 18:09, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

Danish /r/

I don't understand what you mean by this. A table of a consonant or vowel inventory of a language is by default a table of phonemes. At least that's what all the other phonology articles have. Such a table may include allophones in parentheses filling in some gaps, but again it implies that it is itself a table of a phonemic inventory without a note that says otherwise.

The article has to establish that there is a /r/ phoneme before ever mentioning it. An alternative is to make the table completely about allophones and remove those square brackets. Nardog (talk) 00:23, 23 August 2018 (UTC)

@Nardog: Then, I guess, you can revert me, but maybe we should consider having separate tables for phonemes and for major allophones (written in broad transcription). Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 11:32, 24 August 2018 (UTC)