User talk:Fred chessplayer~enwiki/Archive1

Wikiproject Sweden

Have you seen the Wikipedia:WikiProject Sweden? Maybe we should start using that and perhaps define a number of daughter projects: Wikipedia:WikiProject Art of Sweden, Wikipedia:WikiProject Music of Sweden, Wikipedia:WikiProject Literature of Sweden. Tasks may already be found in various lists, such as lists of people. I recently added a List of Swedish architects (very bad coverage), and added some names to List of Swedes in music (some coverage of pop music but really bad for classical/art music, or whatever one wants to call it). There are also chronological lists which should be added. There is a list of archbishops of Uppsala at Archbishop of Uppsala (singular, following the standard for other articles in the category). There should be lists of bishops for all the other Swedish dioceses: Lund, Skara etc. / Uppland 22:10, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I will write at the page I created and I see you put your name to Wikipedia:Sweden_Wikipedians'_notice_board. Reason is that Wikiproject Sweden only writes about the history of Sweden. --Fred chessplayer 03:15, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Useful secondary sources

I don't think translating from the Swedish Wikipedia is a good idea, as the quality of the articles there is rather inconsistent. Many contributors on the Swedish Wikipedia have the habit of either creating pointless stubs or writing from memory without collating even easily available online resources. I took the list of archbishops from the Swedish version, and for lists it is perhaps the easiest way, since they don't require much translating. For articles, which have to be translated in any case, I think there are better sources. The best articles on the Swedish Wikipedia on Swedish history topics (and some other topics as well) are actually those fetched directly from Nordisk familjebok, available online.

I am not claiming NF as some ideal, but the aticles there are often good as a starting-point. NF is often outdated, but still useful for many topics and often much more complete than NE or other later Swedish encyclopaedias. For medieval topics, NF may be more outdated than for later periods and should be used with more caution, and some history articles have a strong nationalist bias. It is most useful for things like biographies of semi-notable 19th century poets or scientists (where NE may not even have an article on the person) or the history of Swedish institutions (compare articles on Bergskollegium, Kammarkollegium or on the Swedish universities, where NF is full of useful and detailed information). Always check the supplement volumes at the end, which are as late as from the 1920s and 1930s.

For biographies I usually take raw data (birth, death, education, publications etc) from NF, then update it with the help of Svenskt biografiskt lexikon (which I have offline access to) and occasionally Nationalencyklopedin (which you probably have online access to through the Lund University network). Sometimes I just make a summary of the SBL article. NF is out of copyright, but in relation to the other two mentioned reference works I try to be careful to avoid what could be seen as plagiarizing, and add references at the end of the article (with hyperlinks to the original Swedish NF article or other resources available online).

There are many online subscription-only databases and electronic journals which you may have access to if you are connected through or can log in to the Lund University network, some of them relevant for Swedish topics. / Uppland 10:32, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)

It's been a while, but I want to thank you none the less and let you know that I have used your advice in my articles ever since you wrote it. --Fred chessplayer 21:24, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Join the ball?

Maybe you'll fancy contributing to

• Swedish language (see: Talk:Swedish language)
• Standard Swedish (see: Talk:Standard Swedish)
• Swedish phonology (see: Talk: Swedish phonology)

:-)

Here around, we are often too good at criticizing, and too bad at saying someone does good things. Anyways, I think your attempt to contribute to the History of Scanian is a good move. I may come to criticize the content sooner or later, but not before I've read up on the subject myself. :-) /Tuomas 23:12, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

thank you Tuomas. I don't know if you have seen Wikipedia:Sweden_Wikipedians'_notice_board There's not much going on, but I think it may be useful some day. I remember when I came here I didn't know what Swedish pages needed work so I started up this notice board. --Fred chessplayer 19:21, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Also, to answer your question, I don't consider myself knowledgable enough to contribute to the pages you mention without getting involved in disputes with J.M. and P.I.

Medieval archbishops of Uppsala

Good work, the Uppsala archbishops will soon all have something written about them! But I think you have enough of the biography on most of the medieval archbishops to make pages of their own for each one of them. Adding info directly to the list would be more suitable if all that was known was that "John Doe is mentioned as archbishop of Uppsala in papal document so-and-so from year X, but is otherwise unattested", not when what is known adds up to several paragraphs. Uppland 14:44, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Thank you. I hope you have my page on your watchlist so you get this message. I have written a reply on Talk:List of Archbishops of Uppsala --Fred chessplayer 15:07, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Swedish Wikipedia needs You!

There is a RfA going down at Swedish Wikipedia right now [1], and your voice in this discussion might be very important. I'm trying to get my fellow countrymen to appreciate the finer points of things like justifying their votes and not voting for admins because they think they can do a good job.

Peter Isotalo 09:40, May 11, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for keeping me in mind. I think I should express my view on the Swedish Wikipedia. I consider it uninteresting and unambitious compared to english wikipedia. To me english wiki is the international wiki. Swedish is interesting about Swedish events – I recently read about sv:Styckmordsrättegången. Swedish Wiki I mainly use in translation or references of articles concerning Sweden. As I'm not active on Swedish Wiki I probably have no business voting on admins. But thanks for keeping me in mind, though. --Fred-Chess 09:01, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

And after getting severely burned when trying to make a difference in this vote, I say it's good thing you didn't try. Those users who aren't outright aggressive themselves either defend the trolls and rogue admins by claiming free speech or some form of bizarre ultra-Wikidemocracy or just sit silent when disputes arise.

Stick to en, it's better for your blood pressure. :-D

Peter Isotalo 12:23, May 16, 2005 (UTC)

Hundreds

Sorry, Fred, but I don't think you understand what a hundred is. A hundred is actually a härad in Swedish. Uppland 11:55, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

No need to say sorry. You are right, I mistook it for socken maybe? Or församling? Well something insignificant... --Fred-Chess 14:45, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

Actually, I would not really call the socknar insignificant either, nor the församlingar in the cities: the parishes are used whenever a biographical event, such as the birth or death of someone, has to be placed somewhere (as it was the unit for ministerial records, the kyrkböcker), and is used in most secondary sources for the location of important historic buildings or natural objects. Many parishes also have an old church of some historic interest. Many of the places in America having articles are smaller and of less historical significance than the average Swedish socken. I think the socken is probably the lowest level of rural geographic division that we should view as "inherently notable" at this point in the development of Wikipedia (but if someone, in a distant future when everything else has already been written, will start adding articles on every farm in Kentucky, there is obviously no reason not to do the same for every farm in Småland...). As for city parishes, their significance is clear from the fact that districts in the cities are often named after the parish church, such as Klara, Maria or Katarina in Stockholm. (Or what about St Petri or St Pauli in Malmö? I don't know Malmö well enough.) Uppland 12:05, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

Municipalities

I have looked at your additions and will look at them a bit more later. Meanwhile, I changed the look of the infobox slighty, just to get rid of a bit of the "table" character, and added the map into the infobox in the Stockholm article (where I also got rid of that silly pseudo-viking ship and added some better images from commons). Uppland 12:05, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

On a serious note (unlike below), there is some difficulties I want to draw your attention to. First, the map looks dirrent on some pages than it does on the others because I made changes in successions, that I consider important. I drew in three lakes and rearranged the names of cities, +adding some new cities. Why Tärnaby pop 500 was on the map and e.g. Visby is not is unknown to me.

Number two is the issue with mun. and cities. I tried some different variants there in the intro. But I assume a resolution will turn up as people visit the pages with "fresh eyes" and try some clear way of explaining it.

I could also explain why I haven't made the mun. of Stockholm yet (there are 4-5 of them, ie Botkyrka, Huddinge, Sundbyberg, Nacka). The reason is that I want to get a map of Stockholm city first, to show their location compared to Stockholm, which isn't possible on a Sweden map. Their location in Sweden is right on top of Stockholm.

--Fred-Chess 10:04, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Chess championship

Here is something I just noticed which you seem to have missed! Maybe you can keep your eyes open for the next tournament. Uppland 05:18, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, I will do that. I have actually never played correspondence chess before. It defeats the purpose of heckling the opponent after the game. :) Fred-Chess

Swedenborg again

I asked Bishonen whether she thinks it might be time to take Emanuel Swedenborg to peer review again, for real this time, and she agreed it would be (see my question on her talk page and her reply on my talk page). I think it is up to you now, as it is largely your article and you will have to get busy with the topic again. Uppland 17:14, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

---

Thanks for the reminder. I just put the S. peer review page on my watchlist. The comment on immediate vs. later impact of discoveries is a good one. I will take a look at it (but I'm busy today). --Blainster 17:53, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

Replied

Saw your message, and added my 25 øre [to the Scanian thread]... I have no idea if it makes sense, because to be honest, I'm a tiny bit drunk at the moment, but I hope I understood you right.

municipalities

You still haven't commented on the question asked above concerning municipalities... i take it you haven't seen the message? If you have, and chose not to answer, and think I am constantly bothering you, then that is your problem. --Fred-Chess 11:57, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, I had no intention to snub you. I have just been busy and mostly preoccupied with non-wikipedian matters. As for the Jokkmokk map and its siblings, they are very clear in layout and colours, except for the fact that the map gives the impression of an enormous mass of land stretching outwards on the Norwegian side. I think you should consider either of these options:

• Alternative 1: indicate the Norwegian coast, or
• Alternative 2: cut neighbouring countries out of it entirely and use som other colour than blue for the non-map area in order not to give the impression of Sweden being entirely surrounded by water.

Personally, I think alternative 1 is the better one. I also looked at the maps of the municipalities in the Stockholm area, and I think they look fine. Uppland 10:05, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Pakkoruotsi

Hey, I responded to your note on my talk page (I, uh, really suck at following conversations that occur across multiple talk pages). Just an FYI, since I can guess that you're not watching it... =) -- Captain Disdain 00:57, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Skåneland

Hi Fred, I have left a comment on the talkpage.--Wiglaf 21:44, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Thank you. --Fred-Chess 22:01, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Howdy, I made a bunch of minor grammatical and clarity changes to the Skåneland page. I thought it was a fascinating article, and I would love to help edit any other project on Sweden. Tfine80 04:24, 27 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Nice to see you liked it. I don't know what interests you? If you are interested in expanding articles that should cover broad topics and where a New Yorker may be able to find material and are currently not more than stubs, there are Swedish literature, Swedish culture and several of the Swedish kings from the 16th century and earlier (see List of Swedish monarchs).

Article that I have been involved with and may also fascinate you include Nordic Seven Years' War and Gustav Vasa.

The articles in Category:Swedish_people of different quality and length, some might interest you to copyedit?

More curiously, there are the Mythological kings of Sweden and Semi-legendary kings of Sweden and all the kings mentioned on those pages that have basically been the work of one Swedish strongman (not me, though), that could probably all do some textual improvement (copyedit, that is).

Furthermore, it has been suggested that Emanuel Swedenborg might make it to feature status if it includes in line references. In order to add those, I would like if someone read the article and noted what sections that would need in text references.

So here are some suggestions. :-)

--Fred-Chess June 28, 2005 08:30 (UTC)

Soman

Soman is currently in Africa, and thus unable to do much on the internet. Burgundavia (✈ take a flight?) 09:38, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)

Ok.

Map of Sweden

Sorry about the changing the map on the Sweden pages: if you provide me with the latitudes and longitudes of the towns you would like to see on the map, I will create an English language version from the same source as the current French map. Physchim62 13:19, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I appreciate you offering this. I have been trying to find a complete list of city coordinates during the last month, which we would need for infoboxes but I haven't been able to yet so it may take some more time. --Fred-Chess July 4, 2005 23:51 (UTC)

Swedish pre-history

Hi Fred, I see that there was an edit conflict. Now, I see that you prefer the names "svear" and "götar", and I understand your point since these names are more "correct" from a Swedish POV. However, for most English-speakers names such as "Swedes" and "Geats" are the familiar ones, and the ones that should be used, IMHO.--Wiglaf 10:31, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

P.S. Concerning the choice of the names "Swedes" and "Geats" this was used throughout Wikipedia before I arrived. I have also seen in museums such as Gamla Uppsala that the name "Swedes" is used as a translation for "Svear" even by Swedes. Concerning English speakers, they are familiar with Swedish pre-history through Beowulf and since the 19th century, svear are uniformly called "Swedes" in scholarly discourse on the epic.--Wiglaf 10:35, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Ok, I am not contesting this. I would have used the English names had I known them, at first I was considering calling them Goths but I know that's not right.... Thank you for the info.

Well, calling the Götar and the Gutar Goths, is not "wrong", since the Goths appear to have called them Goths (see Scandza) and they are still often called Goths. If you called them Goths, I would not infere since the article on Goths state their relationship, and Goths are much more familiar to English speakers than Götar.--Wiglaf 11:56, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I also did some other changes. I removed details that you expanded on and did not want to just overwrite your changes. If you want, I can do it, and you can use the compare function to see if you approve of it. --Fred-Chess 10:52, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Yes, you could try :). I am the kind of contributor who likes just adding and adding information and so there may be more information than is necessary.--Wiglaf 11:56, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Creation of 'User:Tabletop/Rail maps by country

Thank you for drawing to my attention that personalised pages are possible.

Unfortunately, most of the maps on this page are blank and useless. I will have to work on that later.  :-)

Tabletop 29 June 2005 11:35 (UTC)

glad you approved of it :-)

"Professors" category

I noticed that you created a category for Swedish professors. Personally I find these categories useless, as "professor" means different things in different places. In the US, practically every university or college teacher with a Ph.D. (and many without) is a "professor" (i.e. the equivalent of our lektor etc.). Any consistent use of this category scheme would a) give Americans even more (apparent) over-representation than they already have, and b) in (not all, but) most cases just parallell a disciplinary categorization. I have tried to argue this point on CfD but failed to convince the (American) majority there, but I think it is better to categorize academics after discipline. I am removing the professor category from Christopher Gillberg and added the so-far underused Category:Swedish physicians instead, which lands him in some good company. Go ahead and revert me if you disagree. ;-) --Uppland 29 June 2005 12:53 (UTC)

Hi Tup! Well I thought we needed something for all those people that have made important work in a university faculty. These people are of course almost always professors, especially in older times. An alternative might be "Swedish university people" or similar. --Fred-Chess June 29, 2005 12:59 (UTC)

The problem is that a category of professors won't include the many significant academics who never became professors, such as most of Linnaeus's disciples for instances. But the category will nevertheless be large enough to require subdividing by discipline, especially if we include lecturers and others who have at some point taught at a university, and in the end this scheme will still largely, although not completely, duplicate the disciplinary categories. For instance, Category:Swedish university teachers of history will include most, but not all, of the people in Category:Swedish historians and will just be a similar but less useful version of the latter.

I created a List of Uppsala University people. There could probably be similar lists for Lund, Stockholm Univ., Karolinska, KTH and perhaps a couple of others. As long as the articles and lists are still as short as they are, there is no point in separating them, but eventually it will need to be done. Another thing which could be done is to write articles on individual professorial chairs with lists of their incumbents, provided the chairs are old enough and at least a decent proportion of those listed have articles. (Such articles exist for several chairs at Oxford and Cambridge, see for instance Lucasian professor). Uppland 30 June 2005 19:20 (UTC)

Ok, the problem with the list is that it mixes people who have only studied at the university with people that have been professors or held other high offices. Swedenborg for instance studied there until he was 20 or so, and I think he never returned.

Furthermore there are some who have in older days held different professors chairs, without really being notable in the fields themselves. Laurentius Paulinus Gothus was professor of logics for a while, and then on astronomy, but he is best known today for his theological works and his historical works. So classifying him as a logician or astronomer might not be sufficent. --Fred-Chess July 1, 2005 06:39 (UTC)

I need to think about this a bit more. Perhaps we need additional opinions? Uppland 1 July 2005 07:59 (UTC)

I think we are the wisest Swedes on the subject so I don't know who we should ask. We could ask some other nationalities who has been working on it though; such as germans or americans. To be honest, it doesn't matter that much to me. You do what you think is best, as I trust you will. (Ps. several archbishop were once professors in some faculty if such a cat. were ever created)--Fred-Chess July 1, 2005 08:16 (UTC)

Swedish nobility

It appears that the cat. discussion was just closed. Perhaps "Members of..." is a good idea. We'll have to discuss this a bit more. Uppland 30 June 2005 19:20 (UTC)

IAGSDC

Fred, I don't know why you added the IAGSDC to the Wikipedia:Unusual articles. The IAGSDC is an organization that has been around for a long time that brings together thousands of gay square dancers around the world. I attended the IAGSDC convention in Toronto a few years ago where 1000 members from four countries took over the prestigeous Royal York Hotel to dance for four days. Gay square dancing has evolved to be quite a different form of dancing than straight square dancing, largely because gay square dancing attracts a much wider age range. (The average age of staright square dancers appears to be 70-75.) Some people may think that, by adding this article to the list of unusual articles, you are mocking or belittling gay square dancing. I strongly recommend that you remove it as including it is inappropriate and insulting. Oh, who I am I kidding? I was a gay square dancer for several years, and even I think it's unusual. Regards. ;-) Ground Zero 30 June 2005 13:28 (UTC)

Oh, oops :-)

I didn't know that, me being a Swede and all, I think and association of Gay Square Dancers to be hillarious.

I understand your point though. You can remove it yourself if you don't think it is appropriate. :-)

--Fred-Chess June 30, 2005 13:33 (UTC)

• Don't worry. I think my attempt at humour was lost in the translation. No offence was taken. The point that I was making is that even though I have been a member of that organization, I think it is unusual, too. I don't intend to remove it. Greetings from Canada. Ground Zero 30 June 2005 14:03 (UTC)

I read it through again, and now I can see the irony :-P Quite funny actually :-) It had me laughing for two days (and still does even if I don't want to admit it...)

I guess I initially only read what I expected to read :-)

--Fred-Chess July 4, 2005 23:51 (UTC)

Super PLAY

Are you feeling particularly mischievous today? :) / Alarm 1 July 2005 11:11 (UTC)

Hmm you don't like me poking fun at SuperPlay? :-) --Fred-Chess July 4, 2005 23:51 (UTC)

Swedish biography

I wikified the Project Runeberg index to Svenskt biografiskt handlexikon and put it as subpages of the Swedish notice board. I still need to turn more of the names around, but the names under A and the beginning of B may say something on how well covered pre-1900 Swedish biography is so far, with obvious reservations for the fact that some blue names actually lead to pages on something completely different. If you notice any names where an article actually exists somewhere else, please create a redirect from the name in the list. Uppland 4 July 2005 11:09 (UTC)

Ok I will do so. --Fred-Chess July 4, 2005 23:51 (UTC)

Swedish Literature

Thanks for the list of Swedish pages to be improved... I did notice that the Swedish literature page needed a lot of work and was thinking of translating the German version. Do you think that is a solution? Tfine80 5 July 2005 00:05 (UTC)

It is nice to see you are interested.

My opinion is that if you want to translate the German page, go ahead, I find it a great idea. The pages New Swedish and Swedish language#History should however also be used as references. --Fred-Chess July 5, 2005 00:18 (UTC)

Swedish emigration to North America

There is a little bit in Swedish-American and Swedish-Canadian but mostly from the N. American perspective. There is also the related article Swedish colonization of the Americas. There are a few American colleges of Swedish origin, see Category:Historically Swedish-American colleges. I wrote the article Eric Norelius, about a Swedish clergyman who is seen as a founder figure by a couple of Swedish-American colleges and who wrote on the history of the migration while it was still taking place (it's all from NF). There are also articles on a number of originally Swedish settlements, such as Lindsborg, Kansas.

We really should have a general article on the emigration, which takes the Swedish perspective and the Swedish political debate over the issue into account, but we also need articles on various Swedish institutions in America, such as the Augustana Synod (Augustanasynoden), which was virtually the US branch of the Church of Sweden, and the Swedish-language newspapers which had wide circulation in the Swedish settlement regions of America at the time. Nordisk Familjebok is probably a useful source in most cases, although it is too early to know anything about the decline of Swedish language or ethnic culture in America.

Consider collecting a list of Swedish-American topics which should have articles or which already have articles in need of expansion. User:Eric Straven seems to be interested in the subject, and I'd bet there are other American or Canadian wikipedians of Swedish origin who may be interested in collaborating on some kind of project. Another tip: I searched the Library of Congress website for PD Swedish images, a few of which I uploaded to Commons. But there were many there depicting Swedish settlements or farms, various groups or societies of Swedish people in America etc. Uppland 5 July 2005 07:53 (UTC)

Yes I have also noticed Eric Straven who wrote about Languages of the United States#Swedish. Perhaps Tfine80 who wrote above this post may have some interest in the subject too.

I found this to be needed when writing about the emigration parts in Småland (where Utvandrarna is located; where Moberg was born) but found nothing to link to. I am currently occupied with geography articles and not going to spend much time on else; but now that I know there is no such article I could always write a stub at least.

Ok I will look into your library photo tip when I am writing about a topic where it could be useful.

--Fred-Chess July 5, 2005 23:09 (UTC)

Maybe I will

Thanks, Fred, I'll think about signing up. The paradoxical fact, though, is that I know more about some British historical subjects, and, well, I like to mostly work on them. In my defence (a little embarrassed here), I'm the main contributor to a few "Swedish" articles—Oscar Levertin and Cornelis Vreeswijk, maybe one or two more—and at least I should be able to snap a few of those requested photos of Stockholm places like Slussen. Best, Bishonen | talk 7 July 2005 12:29 (UTC)

I have noticed. Well you do as you want to, of course. The notice board is a little bloated at the moment but perhaps it could be useful for you requesting images of Swedish subjects, for instance Cornelis. The notice board is an extended version of asking every Swedish user personally, I think. --Fred-Chess July 8, 2005 00:56 (UTC)

An outside opinion on the Scania/Skåne debate

Fred, I'd like to offer my opinion on some things that have been written recently, and I hope that you won't think I meddle in things I have nothing to do with. While Peter Isotalo actually raised the question of the province names on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Swedish provinces as early as in April (at that time I even had a discussion with him on his talk page about it, in which I argued that there were some issues connected to Österbotten), I certainly agree with your point on the Swedish Notice Board talk page that, since we've got that forum, it would have been a good idea to post at least a brief mention of the plan there. However, I think that your way of initiating the discussion was detrimental to the debate itself, with the ironic statement that Peter "is a genius who knows everything best" on Talk:Skåne. I myself often feel a bit disturbed when someone single-handedly and without previous discussion implements a major change to an article I am monitoring, but I think it is wise not to turn to irony or anything that could be interpreted as personal attacks when commenting it. As you're probably already aware of, written comments can seem much harsher than similar words uttered in a face to face-meeting, and seldom achieves anything but to turn a disagreement into a bitterly polarized personal conflict. In hindsight I'm happy I've clicked "Cancel" rather than "Save page" the times I've written some sour lines. You and Peter are both important contributors to the Wikipedia, and I would hate to see you resort to petty name-calling. This, of course, goes for both of you. Calling someone a dick just spins us further down the negative spiral. So I'm urging you to be the bigger man from now on, and to try the diplomatic approach first. My experience is that it works rather well both in RL and on the Wikipedia. / Alarm 16:11, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Thank you that you have taken your time to resolve an issue that I think is important for the community. I don't mind at all. Also thanks for your kind words.

Yes I agree with you on all accounts. You are probably right that words can sound harsher written than spoken. Before taking it back however, I would like to hear Isotalo state that he does not consider himself a genius superior to the rest, because frankly that is the impression I think he has of himself.

I do often credit him too ;-)

--Fred-Chess 16:35, July 11, 2005 (UTC)

Thank you, Fred! Can I just say that Peter's opinions of himself is not really the matter at hand here. In my opinion, what should be discussed on the Wikipedia talk pages are the names of Swedish provinces and to some extent the procedure chosen for changing them. Rather than keeping this a personal issue by demanding of Peter to first make specific declarations about his worldview, I think you should do what you can to reverse the downward spiral here. I know you're man enough to do that. / Alarm 17:13, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Dialects of Calabria page

Hi Fred. I saw the message you left on the Dialects of Calabria page and the suggestion to realign it with the "Dialects of Italy" or the "Dialects of Italian". If one had to be done, linguistically speaking, the Calabrian region has several dialects, not of Italian, but of vulgar Latin. So it would be a Latin dialect (like Italian), of Italy, and not a dialect of the Italian language. The Italian language was created from the Tuscan dialect of Vulgar Latin, so it is relatively new to other parts of Italy since Italy was not a country until 1861. The reason the page is "Dialects of Calabria" was because the last Wiki sysop would not let the page be deleted. The page was incorrectly called the "Calabrian language" page, but since it couldn't be deleted, it was changed to the "Dialects of Calabria." If you read on that page, you will see that the region of Calabria is split right across the north/central area. All dialects south of that line comprise the Sicilian language. The one dialect north of this line comprises the Neapolitan language. So there is no such thing as a "Calabrian" language, hence, the last page name was changed from that title to the "Dialects of Calabria". It would be more accurate, if it has to be done, to add the page to the Dialects of Italy, NOT the Dialects of Italian. Does this make sense?! It can be a confusing subject, I apologize if I'm confusing you. If you have any questions, feel free to contact me. I'm also a collaborator for SCN.Wikipedia. --VingenzoTM 19:23, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Well done!

Great photos from Tanumshede! They all look really nice. / Alarm 19:53, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Thanks! --Fred-Chess 20:01, July 18, 2005 (UTC)