User talk:Djwilms/Archive 2

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Re: Battle of Huwei

Hello, Djwilms.

Regarding the articles Battle of Huwei and Battle of Tamsui, after reading your article myself, I came to the conclusion that they are indeed the same event. By all mean, feel free to merge the two articles as you see fit. As to the name of the battle, if it would help English speakers to understand this particular event better, please use the name of your choice.

No, I have not create any other article regarding the Sino-French War.

I was born in Taiwan, so, yes, I am capable of reading and writing Chinese. I have, as a matter of fact, edited or translated some English articles into Chinese. However, from my past experiences, Chinese Wikipedians tend to be more persistant in using figures from Chinese sources. I will see what I can do and try to keep the firgures on both English and Chinese Wikipedia consistant.

Best of luck.

--K kc chan (talk) 12:38, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Glad to hear that. Now it would be less confusing for people seeking information on this particular battle. Also, since you mentioned, I am the one that created the article Japanese Invasion of Taiwan (1895) under a different user name User:Kc0616, which I stop using more than a year ago. Most of the stuff were translated from Chinese Wikipedia, and since there aren't that many references, hence the English version cited very little references. If you don't mind using Chinese/Taiwanese sources, I can probably dig up some info on the militia for this article.

--K kc chan (talk) 05:06, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I do not know of any good book that you can use since I do not reside in Taiwan at the moment. To be honest, everything I know about this war came from online sources, and I have never read an actual book about the history of Taiwan.

Furthermore, not many people in Taiwan know about this war, since the government of Taiwan/Republic of China tend to downplay this part of history. (The official textbook used in school dedicates only one paragraph on this topic...)

Anyhow, the Chinese Wikipedia article has some sources that may be useful for your research.

Books

• [1]

Web

• [2]
• [3]
• [4]

They are all Chinese, though.

--K kc chan (talk) 07:35, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

US/British English

Thanks for catching a couple of my typos in the article Pescadores Campaign (1895). You have also 'Americanised' British spelling in a couple of cases. I don't mind in the least, as in my real-life job I am an academic editor at a university where articles appear with both types of spelling and often a mixture of both, and my only aim is to ensure consistency and compliance with the guidelines of whatever journal will be publishing them. But I'm interested. Is there a Wikipedia policy on US/Brit English? I had assumed, simply from reading various articles, that you could use either. Perhaps you could enlighten me.

Djwilms (talk) 04:08, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Good day sir! I had noticed this article was not assessed for MILHIST, and I did copy-edit it first. Sorry about mixing American and English styles, feel free to undo any of them. The only policy I know of is to be consistent within the article, either to use all USA or all Brit, for text as well as for dates. I saw the dates formatted as January 1, 1895, (except for the intro) and assumed the American style was in play. Here's the link to the style guide for MILHIST. Hope this helps. Kresock (talk) 04:24, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

French victory?

Someone had changed the result in Sino-French War to ceasefire. Is it really true, I read the article and felt it's a French victory. 98.119.177.171 (talk) 03:57, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Re: Battle of Fuzhou

Yes, I live in Fuzhou now, working for China Telecom. I'm looking forward to your visit to my hometown and I would like to meet you then. I have two nineteenth century books (PDF version) concerning the Sino-French War which I'd love to share with you: one is The Foochow Arsenal and Its Results by Prosper Giquel and the other is The French at Foochow by James F. Roche and L. L. Cowen. Please send me an e-mail if you are interested. --GnuDoyng (talk) 13:32, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Keelung Campaign A review

Are you going through with it? You haven't started a reveiw page. YellowMonkey (click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model!) 02:04, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Bombardment of Đà Nẵng

There's something surpried me about this incident. If you check the French article, it also said that. This battle occurred within a day only, the French are undamaged, but how can the Vietnamese casualties be up to 1200. I'am a little doubt about it, do you have any particular source about it?

Also, I read some other sources and they said it took place on Apr 15, not 25. 98.119.177.171 (talk) 01:00, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Re: Battle of Changhsing

I believe it is 邱鳳揚, according to the sources.

--K kc chan (talk) 07:51, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Please do let me know when you finish and publish your book. I look forward to see it.

--K kc chan (talk) 00:58, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Three Tangs: Tang Ching-sung, Tang Jingsong and Tang Qingsong

I have met the first one (an ugly fat lady with a moustache) on the Arthur steamship on 5-6 June 1895 when I was young. I made an article [5] on the second one in French (which you could check). Who is the third one?

Since I did not succeed in importing the picture [6], I copied it onto French Wikipédia [7].

I feel you should change the file name http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tang_Qingsong.jpg and the description (as either Jingsong or Ching-sung).

By the way, is there a rule in English (and French) texts for Chinese authors and other people from Taiwan and other non-putonghua-speaking places? I have no problem for Chang Kai-shek or Sun Yat-sen, but is it Lung Chang or Long Zhang? Tang Ching-sung or Tang Jingsong? Maybe 龍章 prefers to be called Lung Chang... --André de StCoeur (talk) 03:33, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Hi there!

Oh, have I got my pinyin wrong? I probably transliterated it from memory, without looking at the Chinese characters. I'll get rid of any references to Tang Qingsong (or is it Tang Jingsong). Stupid godawful system anyway (see below).

1. Wikipedia likes us to give names in Wade Giles somewhere if the subject matter of the article is pre-1910. I normally give names in as many forms as I can, just to be on the safe side. Personally, I shall never forgive the Chinese Communists and the unimaginative Soviet philologists who advised them for inventing that ghastly pinyin system back in the 1950s. It just means that everybody now has to learn two systems instead of one. Wade Giles was an excellent system, and now that English has become a world language would have been the best of all possible systems for rendering the sounds of Chinese. I'm fed up with hearing English friends who know little about China talking about the Kwing dynasty (that's how you'd naturally pronounce Qing in English). In my forthcoming book on the Sino-French War, all Chinese names will be given in Wade Giles, in line with the usage of the Cambridge History of China.

He preferred to be called Lung Chang when he was still alive ...

2. I notice you state that T'ang Ching-sung disbanded the Yunnan Army in January 1886. Do you have a source for that? I know that it took it a couple of months to fall back from Tuyen Quang to the Chinese border at Lao Cai, but I wasn't aware that it was formally disbanded at a particular date.

Djwilms (talk) 08:17, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

3. P.S. I'm glad you're making good use of my source references. Any chance of you rewriting the main French article 'Guerre franco-chinoise'?

Hello, hello,

1. I have a Chinese friend named CuiCui. Thanks to pinyin, she has a hard time in France - some people call her Mélaoli (Cf. Je suis gobé d'une petite - c'est une Anna,c'est une Anna , une Annamite. Elle est vive, elle est charmante, c'est comme un oiseau qui chante). C'est aussi grâce au pinyin qu'on apprend que Siksi[8] était une impératice Kwing. I agree pinyin is terrible, but what about quốc ngữ? I know old Alex's typewriter was damaged during his trip and had no 'f" and no "z" (Reference missing), but he should have repaired it. Anyway, the stupid godawful pinyin saved the French from the Wade-Giles / EFEO / Yale mess (not to mention the bopomofo).

I hope your book will include an Annex with Chinese proper names in Wade Giles / pīnyīn / 漢字 / 汉字 ...

2. Wong Chi Keung (1972, pp. 147-148) says (notes in square brackets are mine) "On May 25 [1885] Huang Shou-chung [an ex Black Flag commander] with about three hundred men joined T'ang Ching-sung at Lungchow (1)[where is this?]. A few hundred more of Huang's men arrived some time later (2). They were then reorganized into two batallions. In January 1886 when Sino-French hostilities were definitively over, T'ang's troops had to be disbanded (3). Huang Shou-chung and his men then fell into oblivion". Notes: (1) Diary of a Volunteer p. 195;(2) Ibid. (3) Ibid. p.227. [But I do not have (and I never had) Tang's "Diary of a volunter"]. I will send you Wong's thesis (images, 40Mb) when I get your e-mail address.

3. I may complement the Guerre franco-chinoise article and align it on the Sino-French War, but my main interest is on Chinese secret societies and the Black Flags. I also have to tell how Tang Jingsong helped Liu Yongfu in 1883 and finish the Liu Yongfu article. I have put questions on the French Tang Jingsong discussion page, but who will reply?

4. Finally a remarquable quotation from Hocquard "Une campagne au Tonkin" [9](pp.313-314) : "C'est à partir de 1867, à la suite de la fameuse insurrection du Kouang-si que le trafic de la rivière Claire a commencé à diminuer. A cette époque, les insurgés chinois, rejetés par le général Fung de l'autre côté des frontières du Céleste Empire, envahirent le Tonkin sous la conduite de leur chef Ou-Tsong et se divisèrent en deux bandes, dont l'une, composée des Hékis ou Pavillons-Noirs, établit son quartier général à Lao-kai sur le fleuve Rouge, et dont l'autre, formée par les Hoang-Kis ou Pavillons-Jaunes, s'installa à Ha-giang, dans le point où la rivière Claire passe sur le territoire tonkinois. Tant que les Pavillons-Noirs et les Jaunes restèrent sous l’unique commandement de Ou-Tsong, le commerce ne souffrit pas beaucoup : les Chinois avaient établi à Ha-giang et a Lao-kai des postes de douane où les barques qui faisaient le trajet entre la Chine et le Tonkin payaient un droit de passage ; le général chinois se serait bien gardé d'entraver ce trafic, puisqu'il en tirait toutes ses richesses. Mais Ou-Tsong mourut et les Bannières-Jaunes et Noires ne purent s'entendre pour lui trouver un successeur. Chacune d'elles se choisit un chef : les Hoang-Kis prirent pour général Hoang-Anh, qui demeura à Ha-giang, et les Hékis installèrent à Lao-kai Luu-Vïnh-Phuoc, dont le nom devait bientôt devenir atrocement célèbre dans tout le Tonkin."

OK for Feng Zicai. Hoang Anh must be Huang Zongying. But I have no idea who this Ou-Tsong can be. Why not a Taiping general?

André de StCoeur (talk) 00:31, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for all that. Lung-chou (Longzhou, 龍州), about 100 kilometres northeast of Lang Son inside Kwangsi province, was the main base for the Kwangsi Army in the Sino-French War after the French captured Lang Son. Briere de l'Isle was asked by the army ministry to consider a campaign to take it in March 1885 (someone at the ministry thought that if he 'showed his spahis' at Lung-chou, southwest China would go up in flames as its Muslim minorities rallied around a French-inspired jihad), and he and de Negrier decided that it was beyond the strength of the Tonkin expeditionary corps to do so.

Huang Shou-chung may have critically influenced Liu Yung-fu's decision to defend Son Tay in December 1883, vowing that he would stay and hold it himself if Liu didn't want to defend it. He does not seem to have done or said anything else notable thereafter, or at least anything that is on my radar.

I shall see if I have anything on the mysterious Wu Tsung. I suspect he is McAleavy's 'Wu Ah-chung', the son of Wu Yuan-ch'ing (Black Flags in Vietnam, 105). 'With this regiment at his back he [Liu] decided to return to his first allegiance, where in the meanwhile Wu Ah-chung had succeeded to his father in the make-believe princedom. Now, of course, Liu was able to cut much more of a figure, so much so in fact that Wu thought it wise to cement their relationship by offering him his sister's hand. Apparently the young lady was not very appetizing, for though Liu consented to a betrothal he alleged various excuses for postponing the marriage and the year 1865 found him still a bachelor.' There are three other index references to Wu Ah-chung that I haven't checked out yet.

I enjoyed your petite Annamite. The song sounds as though it dates from the same era as this gem from British India: 'Black Velvet was full of joy/For every British soldier boy/She guaranteed to please/And the most it would cost you was five rupees.'

Do you mind looking over the stuff I have written about Liu Yung-fu and the Black Flag Army in my shortly-to-be-published book? It probably won't come to more than about twenty pages, and I'm acutely aware that there are a lot of people who know far more about the 1860s and 1870s than I do. Once we get to the Sino-French War I am on much firmer ground, but I would appreciate help on the earlier period.

Djwilms (talk) 01:26, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

P.S. Please send me Wong Chi Keung's thesis. I am now in the process of cutting down my book from 650 to 400 pages, indexing it, and tying up loose ends before submitting the final text in June 2010, so I soon won't have much of an opportunity to add new stuff. Now would be ideal, while I'm in the throes of creative destruction. My email address is:

davidwilmshurst@yahoo.com

I'd be happy to reciprocate with stuff that I have. If you let me have your own email address, I could start by sending you my bibliography for the Sino-French War. I have translated thousands of pages from various French sources into English in the course of writing the book, all neatly filed away on my computer, so there's bound to be stuff in there somewhere that would interest you and that I could let you have quickly.

P.P.S. I've started to knock the English article Tang Ching-sung into shape. I haven't done much with it so far, but now that I know there's a fellow-enthusiast out there I'll try to build it up over the next few weeks. I'll start off by providing proper source references for everything in there that I originated. Anything related to Tang in Taiwan in 1895 is already properly sourced in the main article Japanese invasion of Taiwan, but the Sino-French War stuff needs more work.

Liu Yongfu & the Black Flags

Good job ! When will your book be ready ? and what about the copyright ?

I have removed the paragraph in chinglish made by Hans yulun lai, a known vandal on the Black Flag Army page.

I also have a few questions and remarks on Liu Yongfu:

1. 1.a. Jeffrey Barlow, in “The Zhuang - A Longitudinal Study of Their History and Their Culture” [10] (Jan. 2001) and in “The Zhuang in The Sino-Vietnamese Frontier during the Qing-Era” [11] (Oct. 10-2002) says “He was a Hakka, his family originally from the southeast region at Bobai county in Wuzhou prefecture near the Vietnamese border. The family moved steadily west in succeeding generations and resided in Shangen at Liu's birth, about 1837.” He cites Zhong-Fa Zhanzheng Diaocha Ciliao Shilu. [The Veritable Record of the Materials of the Investigation of the Sino-French War] Guangxi Zhuangzu Zizhichu Bowuguan Xiuding. (The Museum of the Guangxi Zhuang Autonomous Region) (ed.) Guangxi Renmin Chubanse, Nanning: 1982. p. 68.as a source – which I have not seen. For Barlow, Liu was therefore born in Shangen.

1.b. Troutrea (a pseudonym) in [12] says that Liu was born in Bobai, Guangxi. He must have confused 博白 with Liu’s place of birth.

1.c. From what I know, Liu was effectively born in Qinzhou (欽州) (probably pronounced locally as Chinhsin).

1.d. You also say that Liu was born in Qinzhou, quoting Lung Chang [龍章], Yueh-nan yu Chung-fa chan-cheng [越南與中法戰爭, Vietnam and the Sino-French War] (Taipei, 1993), document which I do not have.

==> Since Liu said in his memoirs that he was born Qinzhou why does Lung Chang say it is Shangen (Shang’en or Shan-gen?). Are these two names for the same place? Or Liu was born twice? Or had he a hidden brother?

2. McAleavy p. 99 does not give the name of the place, but says that it was “in the extreme southwest of Guangdong province, close to the Vietnamese border and within a few miles of the sea”. The same sentence is found in Wikipedia. My notes (source unknown) and [13] as well as [14] say that Qinzhou was in Guangdong province at the time of Liu’s birth, but is now in Guangxi.

==> If this is right, it could be clarified - this would explain why Liu is born in Guangdong for some, Guangxi for others.

3. In 1857, the starving Liu and his half-brother had first joined the band of Zheng San (Ch’eng San, 鄭三), which himself joined forces with Wu Er (吳二). After the death of his half-brother, Liu left them for the band of Wang Shilin (王士林), followed soon by … Wu Er. Then he joined the band of Huang Sihong (黃思宏) and later defected to Wu Yuanqing (Wu Yuan-ch'ing, 吳元清). My notes say that this gentleman was also named Wu Si (吳四) (I assume there must have been plenty of bandits named Wu, who had to be numbered) and Wu Lingyun (~吳凌雲 – the second hanzi is wrong, I cannot find it – replace the bottom with 土). Here, my note are probably wrong, since the father of Wu Yuanqing was Wu Lingyun, who was, as Barlow (2002) says, the head of one of the Zhuang rebellions and creator of the short-lived Yanlinguo - 廷陵国 or 延陵国, it’s another sino-viet byzantine debate – see [15]..

Soon after Liu joined his band Wu Yuanqing was succeeded by his son, the better known Wu Yazhong (Wu Ya-chung, 吳亞忠) who has a page in Japanese Wikipedia ([16]) and was also named Wu Azhong (Wu Ah-chung, 吳阿忠), as in McAleavy, or Wu Hezhong or even, to make things worse, Wu Zhong (Wu Chung, 吳忠).

You say that Wu Yuanqing “held a commission from the Taipings”. Although Wu Yuanqing and, later, Wu Yazhong pretended they were Taiping princes, no Taiping ot Taiping-related document or historian have documented this allegation. The Taipings were far away from Guangxi and Wu could say whatever they wanted.

Like many others, the Wu Yuanqing – Wu Yazhong militia had benefited from what Li Wei [17] calls nicely the “Taiping domino effect”, but they had nothing to do with the Taiping. Wu Yazhong had indeed recruited new members in the Taiping prefecture, which he raided, but it would be misleading to say that these were “former Taipings”.

In the same way, neither Liu Yongfu nor the Black Flags ever had any connection with the Taiping. There may have been among the Black Flags a few defectors from the early Taiping rebellion in Guangxi, but this was much further North. Or there may have been some former Taipings fleeing after their defeats (if they had crossed into Vietnam; they would have rather joined the Yellow Flags). The old French literature (Dupuis and others) is full of statements on links between Black Flags and Taipings, but without evidence.

==> So I have removed the sentence “splinter remnant of the Taiping rebels” in the Black Flags page. If you have evidence of relations, you may undo it, but I am convinced that if they were “splinter remnant”, it was not from the Taipings.

Good job! You made me like Wikipedia!

P.S.1 Why don't you move the Table of contents up?

André de StCoeur (talk) 01:50, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Dear André de StCoeur,

Thanks very much for your comments. I've gone back to Lung Chang to look up Liu's birthplace and Taiping connections, or lack thereof, and have discovered, interestingly, that what he says about Liu Yongfu in the published Chinese text (Taipei 1993) of Yueh-nan yu Chung-fa chan-cheng (Vietnam and the Sino-French War) differs slightly from what he says in his later (unpublished) French translation of this book. The Chinese text (in my English translation) reads thus:

The Annamese emperor Tu Duc, unable to make any effective resistance to Garnier’s incursions, sent an envoy to ask Liu Yung-fu to take the field. Liu Yung-fu, who was then at Hung Hoa, responded eagerly to the Annamese request. Liu Yung-fu (or Liu I) was a remarkable man. He began his career as a bandit in southern China, and went on to invade Tonkin, defend Annam against the French, serve as a general in the Chinese army and finally resist the Japanese invasion of Formosa as commander-in-chief of the so-called 'Democratic Republic of Taiwan'. Liu Yung-fu was born on 10 October 1837 in Ch'in-chou (欽州) in Kwangtung province. When he was eight his parents moved to Shang-ssu-chou (上思州) in Kwangsi. His family was poor, living by manual work for others, and was only just able to scrape a living. In the 1850s Hung Hsiu-ch’uan raised rebellion in Kwangsi, at Chin-t'ien-ts'un in Kuei-p'ing County, and Kwangsi descended into chaos. In 1857 Liu Yung-fu joined a local militia force commanded by Wu Yuan-ch’ing (吳元清), and later by his son Wu K’un (吳鯤). Wu Yuan-ch’ing and his son ran a freelance organisation that had no connection with the Taipings. In 1867 the Kwangsi forces sacked the two county towns of T’ai-p’ing and Kuei-shun. Liu Yung-fu then left Wu K’un, and led 200 soldiers across the border into Tonkin, where he created a neutral and independent force, the Black Flag Army. In 1869 Wu K’un also entered Tonkin, and Feng Tzu-ts’ai led an army into Tonkin to attack bandits. In 1869 Wu K’un fought the Chinese army at Bac Ninh, and was wounded. He committed suicide by drinking poison.

That seems fairly clear: no Taiping connection.

But look at what he says in his French translation:

Lieou Yong-fou fut une figure extraordinaire : tour à tour rebelle aux autorités chinoises, envahisseur du Tonkin, défenseur du Vietnam, général de l’armée chinoise et généralissime des forces armées de la République de Formose pour combattre les Japonais. Il vint au monde le 10 octobre 1837 dans le district de Fang-tch’eng qui faisait partie du département de K’in-tcheou (dans la partie occidentale du Kouang-tong). Sa famille était très pauvre. A l’âge de huit ans ses parents l’amenèrent à Chang-sseu-tcheou (au Kouang-si). Après la mort de ses parents il dut passer des années dans les rangs des forces impériales ou dans des bandes rebelles qui opéraient dans le Kouang-si à la suite de la rébellion des T’ai-p’ing en 1850. Une de ces bandes rebelles dirigée par Wou K’ouen (ou Wou Ya tsong) avait des rapports vagues avec les T’ai-p’ing. C’est à elle que Lieou Yong-fou se joignit finalement. En 1867 lorsque la province était sur le point d’être pacifiée, Lieou Yong-fou abandonna Wou K’ouen pour aller au Tonkin. Il avait deux cents compagnons pour passer la frontière. Au Tonkin il fonda les Pavillons noirs. En 1868 Wou K’ouen dut à son tour chercher refuge au Tonkin. Poursuivi par les troupes chinoises conduites par le général Fong Tseu-ts’ai et coincé dans la région de Bac ninh, Wou K’ouen se suicida en 1869.

One of these rebel bands . . . had vague connections with the Taipings.

I think you are probably right though, and that there was no connection. I'm not quite sure where I got the Taiping connection from; possibly from McAleavy, who says that Wu Yuan-ch'ing claimed to have been created a prince by the Taiping ruler in Nanking (Black Flags, p. 104).

I'll see if I can dig up anything else relevant and will follow up on the other points you raise. Thanks very much for taking the trouble to make such a long post. It's nice to get well-informed comment and criticism.

My book, provisionally titled 'Bearding the Dragon: The Sino-French War, 1884-85', will be submitted to HKU Press next June and should come out in 2011.

I'll get back to you soon,

Djwilms (talk) 02:01, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for the information! Where did you find a French version of 越南與中法戰爭?

Several writers have said that the Black Flags were created "in the wake of the Taiping rebellion in Guangxi" or "à la suite de la rébellion des T’ai-p’ing" and the like. What I understand is that the Taiping left a mess in Qing Guangxi when they moved North and that a lot of bandits (pirates in colonial French) and small warlords appeared. Some of them were probably "early" Taipings who preferred to stay in Guangxi. [By the way, I wonder why nobody says Liu Yongfu was a "warlord" or "chef de guerre" or "seigneur de la guerre" - it seems it fits him nicely].

There are a lot of web pages stating that the Black Flags were remnants of the Taipings, mainly because they are copy-and-paste of old versions of Wikipédia articles. But there are old references too. Pavie squarely states that the Black Flags were Taipings expelled from Guangxi.

I have nearly finished articles on Liu and on the Black Flags in French. I try to write them from their own point of view, but it's pretty difficult. --André de StCoeur (talk) 03:33, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Dear André de StCoeur,

I'll have a careful read of your French articles when I have a moment.

I got the French version of 越南與中法戰爭 from Lung Chang's widow, through the good offices of the film noir director Rene Vienet, who is also a Sino-French War enthusiast (we met when we were both living in Taiwan a few years back). Lung Chang was fluent in French (hence the choice of subject for his book), and had almost finished a French translation of 越南與中法戰爭 before he died. If you care to give me your email address, I would be happy to send you a copy. I've found his book of enormous help to me in writing my own book on the Sino-French War. Sadly, by the time Rene discovered the existence of the French translation, I had already translated most of the 400 pages of the Chinese version into English. Having the French translation earlier would have saved me a lot of time. Still, it was good practice for my Chinese.

I'll consider using 'warlord' in the index to my book. It might sound better than the present entry: 'Liu Yung-fu (1837–1917), Chinese bandit'. Perhaps 'soldier of fortune' might do the trick.

Djwilms (talk) 02:08, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Of course, I would like to get a copy of Lung Chang book in French or English, even in draft form. My e-mail address is andre.destcoeur@laposte.net (with such an address, you'll guess I live in France).

Soldier of fortune seems OK, especially in French (the soldats de fortune are less greedy than the mercenaires). I posted a question on [18], but I don't expect a reply soon. Chinese Gordon was probably not a mercenary. Was he a soldier of fortune?

André de StCoeur (talk) 22:37, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

I've just emailed you Lung Chang in French.

Chinese Gordon was an English gentleman, and therefore a soldier of fortune (it has the same connotations in English as French), not a mercenary.

I'm still inclined to describe Liu Yung-fu as a bandit in my book, then at least readers will know where my sympathies lie. 'De Tham (dates), Annamese pirate'; so much more robust than calling him an 'insurgent', as political correctness now forces me to do.

I've just discovered from one of your posts, much to my embarrassment, that Wong's Black Flag thesis was written at HKU in the 1970s. Considering that I worked there for five years (2002-2007), I'm amazed it never occurred to me to check whether anybody had done anything interesting on late-Kwing stuff. A vital source right under my nose and I missed it ...

Djwilms (talk) 09:11, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

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Maury

I have used (in part) your quotation from Maury in fourchette (see note 4), which lead to a change in baïonnette. I admit that François de Slavetrader's joke is hard to translate into English.

By the way, the address of Librairie & imprimerie Vitte & Perrussel is "3, Place Bellecour, et rue Codé 30, Lyon" not Lyons. My great-grandfather jumps up and down in his bottles when the Capitale mondiale de la gastronomie is mispelt by his ennemis héréditaires from Londres, Douvres or elsewhere, even if it is by the Duc de Marlbrough. Do the French mispell English names? Look at Maury's dédicace on page 1. Ceux qui sont encore debout au service de la France wlll defend Lyon to the end - even à la fourchette !

My note on Liu Yongfu is coming as slowly as general mann-mann. Hope your book is moving more mau lên.

--André de StCoeur (talk) 00:36, 2 April 2009 (UTC).

Dear André de StCoeur,

How sharp-eyed of you to have spotted my sly edit of Lyon! We rosbifs have always called Lyons Lyons, at least since the battle of Agincourt (victoire anglaise éclatante de la guerre de cent ans). And where's this place Douvres? I had to look it up before the penny dropped. I assume Douvres derives from the Latin name Dubris, as I cannot believe that even the French could so disfigure the English name Dover.

I'm glad you appreciated the 'fourchette' quotation. I knew it was a fork, but chose the English word 'knife' because it made the joke sound better in English.

I tried to find out which words were (are) used for bayonet in English. I found:

Bagonet [19] [20], [21], etc.

Toad sticker [22], [23]

Can opener: [24]

But who will understand "Show them you can use your can openers out of the kitchen"? (and you would have to check whether de Négrier had boites de singe for his men!). --André de StCoeur (talk) 12:27, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Oh, is singe also bully beef in French? I know the French routinely described the Chinese and the tirailleurs tonkinois as monkeys (singes) in 1885, but hadn't realised that singe had a technical meaning too. I had always assumed that when they talked about eating singe during arduous excursions away from the Cafe de Biere, they were frying up the bodies of dead Celestials as a welcome change from horses.

Djwilms (talk) 03:31, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Your interpretation is right ! They used to sing "The best cook is the Chinese, the Chinese cook, the Chinese, cook the Chinese, cook the Chinese". This happened on both sides : my great-great uncle Albert-Etienne de Montémont told me it was common, especially in the nudist island of Formosa. Nowadays, that's what the locals give to eat to the ignorant laogui (gwailo) as "typical Taiwanese dish". These people have a deep sense of humour.

By the way, did you know that the stéphanois* gave Francis Garnier the nickname "le Singe" when he returned (in part or in parts) home in a tin box after the best bits were swallowed by Liu's and Hoàng Kế Viêm's friends. That's my version. There is another one here.

*Garnier was a stéphanois, i.e., from Saint-Etienne. Everybody knows that, except maybe Taiwanese-delicacies-gwailo-eaters. --André de StCoeur (talk) 23:35, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

What a lovely site on Garnier! I have just downloaded all the illustrations, and will in due course stick them into the English Wikipedia article on Francis Garnier. It's about time I gave it some attention, as it is in real need of a makeover. Thanks for that!

Talking of monkeys, have you come across this little anecdote in Lecomte's La vie militaire au Tonkin? It's June 1885, a couple of months after the end of hostilities, and a Chinese colonel has just arrived in Hanoi to supervise the return of some French prisoners captured during the retreat from Lang Son. He is invited to dinner with General Warnet:

'The colonel and his secretary were invited to General Warnet’s table and to that of the staff-captains.'

'The colonel became abominably drunk. He drank off an innumerable number of toasts and drained his glass each time, upending it onto his thumbnail to show that he had drunk the last drop. He let out incomprehensible shouts, and pulled out of his pocket an enormous pair of spectacles which he perched on his nose or pushed up on top of his forehead. To wear spectacles, in China, shows that you are a scholar. He was a scholar too, but only when he was drunk.'

'We suggested that somebody should take his photograph. At this offer he rolled his eyes wildly, and claimed that it would shorten his life if he presented his monkey face to the camera lens.'

'When he returned to the Chinese camp, he told all his cronies how we lived. We learned later from other Chinese officers that he had boasted that he had been treated wonderfully, since we had let him drink himself into a stupor every day. What a brute!'

Good old Lecomte. One of my favourite French officers.

Djwilms (talk) 01:06, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

One of the great pleasures of writing a book on the Sino-French War is translating this sort of passage into passable English. Talking of which, I have revisited la radoteuse, in the light of your comment that it denotes repetitious blathering, not just common-or-garden blathering. Here's my latest version:

'I’m fed up with hearing the same old song. All I can do now is to give that old woman a good smack and see whether that stops her blathering. We're now launching a major war, and we're on our way to Peking. Dear God, that wasn't what I had in mind at all!'

It's getting there, I think.

Enough chat for the time being. I must get off home to read David Chandler's The Campaigns of Napoleon, which has just arrived in its sumptuous new Folio Society edition. Shall I start with Toulon or, in this era of instant gratification, fast-forward to Waterloo?

A bientot,

Djwilms (talk) 02:32, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Qing not China

All the campaign articles you've created, I saw that you (not only yourself) always referred Qing Dynasty as China. But in fact, Qing is not China. Qing is foreign country to China and it domninated China. Also the Qing Empire consisted of 6 different countries: China, Manchuria, Mongolia, Uyguru, Taiwan and Tibet. But I don't get it that most peole always though that Qing is China, this's absolutely wrong. You will find more informations on this video. So, on articles, I think you should just leave it as Qing Dynasty or Qing Empire. Cheer. 98.119.177.171 (talk) 22:13, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Technically, you are correct, but China is a convenient shorthand for the Qing empire that has been used in all mainstream academic writing on China (e.g. the Cambridge History of China) for decades. I have no intention of being the first person to depart from this extremely useful convention.

The other problem with this distinction is that it is routinely exploited by patriotic Chinese to hold the Manchus responsible for everything that went wrong in the past four centuries, while claiming anything that went right as a triumph for China. You could say, I suppose, that the Sino-French War was lost by the Qing Dynasty. Yes, but the Sino-French War was fought by armies and fleets which were overwhelmingly ethnically Chinese, under the command of Chinese generals. It is therefore just as true to say it was a defeat for China. I have only come across the participation of a single Manchu infantry unit in the war, at the Battle of Nui Bop (January 1885). It therefore seems perverse to treat the war as anything other than a defeat for China.

I will check whether there is a Wikipedia policy on the use of dynastic names. Certainly, in my forthcoming book on the Sino-French War, while I will distinguish where necessary between the Qing court and China in political matters, I have no hesitation whatsoever in describing the Yunnan and Kwangsi armies as Chinese armies and speaking of Chinese victories and Chinese defeats.

Djwilms (talk) 01:05, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

User 98.119.177.171 is perfectly right. In the same way, I hope you will remove all references to France as a misnomer for Gaule. Moreover, "Chinese defeats" are an offensive way to call "Gaulois victories". I made a special page for you on http://desencyclopedie.wikia.com/wiki/Front_National_Gaulois. I'm sure you will be convinced. --Touchatou (talk) 15:05, 12 April 2009 (UTC) (another alias for the scion of an aristocratic military family soaked in formaldehyde)

An excellent point, my old. I should like to propose that we rename it the Gallo-Manchu War. So much closer to the Chinese term Kwingfa zhanzheng.

Djwilms (talk) 07:43, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Dengching or Chengching?

(Copy-pasted from Talk:Battle_of_Shipu.)

Can anybody help me with the correct name of the Chinese warship crippled by friendly fire at Shipu?

I have followed Rawlinson and Wright in giving her name as Dengching (Teng-ch'ing, 登慶), but I have a strong suspicion that her name was really Chengching (Ch'eng-ch'ing, 澄慶). Certainly, all the contemporary French sources plus Arlington, the American naval officer who served with the Nanyang Fleet, spell her name with an initial 'Tch' or 'Ch'. Lung Chang also gives the name as 澄慶 (Ch'eng-ch'ing) in his 1993 book Yueh-nan yu Chung-fa chan-cheng. Perhaps somebody gave Rawlinson the wrong Chinese character, 登 instead of 澄, and Wright simply repeated the mistake.

Can anyone shed light on this issue?

Djwilms (talk) 02:26, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Hyper-high-tech sophisticated reply:

1. Rawlinson used to drink whisky without water and 澄 without 水.

2. Wright was wrong.

3. On Google, "石浦灣" and "澄慶" gives 23 hits, all in Chinese (with plenty of info. on Shipu battle).

4. "石浦灣" and “登慶" gives only the Battle of Shipu Wikipedia page.

5. Never trust Wikipedia

Conclusion 1: it is 澄慶.

6. In pinyin, 澄 can be pronounced chéng or dèng; In proper nouns, it is Chéng.

Conclusion 2: it is chéngqìng.

7. Never trust Frenchies.

With this 澄清 (chéngqīng, clarification), does it 澄清 (dèngqīng; to become clear)?

--André de StCoeur (talk) 01:09, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

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Your work on Wikipedia

Hi Djwilms,

The Sino-French war articles and the one on the Japanese invasion of Taiwan (1895) are very impressive; congratulations for all the work you've put in there. I don't think I can help much in terms of the main text on the Japanese invasion as I think you've done a great job already, but I think the article needs more references - something I may be able to help with. I'm gradually trying to improve the Dutch Formosa articles as and when I have time (which is not often at the moment), but your articles have raised the bar quite a bit for what I want to do here!

Oh, and do let me know when your book is ready - I'll definitely pick up a copy.

Taffy (talk) 08:59, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

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The Military history WikiProject Newsletter : XXXIX (May 2009)

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Tonkin medal

Hi Djwilms! Fantastic work on the Tonkin commemorative medal. I was far from thinking such controversy had surrounded it! An explanation was given to me some while ago that commemorative medals were actually invented by the British following the Crimean War, and that the French then adopted the idea (starting with Napoleon III's Médaille de Sainte-Hélène for the participants to the campaigns of Napoleon I), so I suppose this whole concept of giving a medal to each participant was rather novel, and indeed may have been challenged as it was perceived to be too democratic and not a recognition of the worthiest. Thank you for this enlightening contribution, and best regards! Phg (talk) 05:40, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

		French Barnstar of National Merit
		Hi Djwilms! I am proud to award you the French Barnstar of National Merit for your extraordinary and highly knowledgeable contributions on the Sino-French War and related subjects. It is an honour and a great value for Wikipedia to have people of your caliber around. Keep up with the great work! Phg (talk) 05:40, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Hi Djwilms! I'll see what I can find on my side. Cheers Phg (talk) 09:56, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

I just nominated the article at "Did you know?": [25]. Cheers Phg (talk) 10:37, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

DYK for Tonkin commemorative medal

On June 24, 2009, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Tonkin commemorative medal, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

BorgQueen (talk) 20:35, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Replied on my talk

YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) paid editing=POV 04:34, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

The Military history WikiProject Newsletter : XL (June 2009)

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Tonkinese Rifles

Hello Djwilms, I have noticed that you have created an article about the Tonkinese Rifles. I have previously created the Senegalese Tirailleurs article about its Sub-Saharan counterpart. As you notice, I have chosen to approach the translation of the unit name differently, keeping the Tirailleur part and just translating the regional name and switching the order.

I naturally prefer my solution in translating the name, my key reasons being: 1. Tiralleur doesn’t mean rifle or even rifleman 2. There is actually an English wikipedia article about tiralleurs 3. Naming them rifles is just copying the British name for similar units in their service.

Although I must acknowledge that many authors writing in English prefer your solution, a notable example being Bernard B. Fall in his books about Indochina. In either case, I think that a unified policy concerning the articles in question would be preferably so we don’t get a situation with articles like the Moroccan Rifles, Algerian Tirailleurs and so forth. Additionally, when articles are created about individual regiments, I have though of using the style “1st Algerian Tirallieur Regiment”. Carl Logan (talk) 17:18, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Hi Carl,

When I created the article I was aware of the other articles you mention, and pondered for some time whether to give it the title 'Tonkinese Rifles', 'Tirailleurs tonkinois' or, on the model of your own article, 'Tonkinese Tirailleurs'. I chose the title Tonkinese Rifles because, despite its drawbacks (as you say, tirailleur doesn't mean rifle or rifleman), it is a recognised title in English. I think most readers interested in learning more about the various French tirailleur units will have come across them in books like Bernard Fall's, under the name 'riflemen'. I've just flipped through Henry McAleavy's Black Flags in Vietnam, which I happen to have by me at the moment, and note that he refers to the tirailleurs annamites as 'Cochinchinese riflemen'.

For what it's worth, in my forthcoming book on the Sino-French War I have used the terms 'Algerian riflemen' or 'Turcos' for the tirailleurs algériens (four battalions of Turcos were in Tonkin at the height of the war), 'Annamese riflemen' or matas for the tirailleurs annamites (several companies were involved in the 1883 and 1884 battles in Tonkin), and Tonkinese riflemen or linh tap for the tirailleurs tonkinois. In battle descriptions I sometimes call them 'skirmishers'. For the names of individual units, I use formulations such as 1st Battalion, 3rd Algerian Rifle Regiment, 2nd Tonkinese Rifle Regiment, etc.

I agree that consistent usage would be desirable; and as you will probably have gathered, my own preference would be for the English term 'Rifles': thus, 'Senegalese Rifles', not 'Senegalese Tirailleurs'. But I quite see the logic of your own solution, so I wouldn't oppose a change of title to 'Tonkinese Tirailleurs' if there was support for it. Perhaps other contributors might have a view?

By the way, on the subject of the Turcos, I still haven't satisfactorily identified the four battalions present in Tonkin during the Sino-French War. I have established their basic organisation (see below), but have not yet found any source that gives the correct designation of Comoy's battalion (it is referred to as the '4th Battalion' tout court). You wouldn't happen to know, would you?

1st Battalion, 3rd Algerian Rifle Regiment (chefs de bataillon Jouneau and Godon, Captains Godinet, Noirot, Carles and Massip)

2nd Battalion, 1st Algerian Rifle Regiment (chefs de bataillon, Letellier and Hessling, Captains Servant, Cannebotin, Omar ben Chaouch and Ligrisse)

3rd Battalion, 3rd Algerian Rifle Regiment (chef de bataillon de Mibielle, Captains Camper, Chirouze, Polère and Valet)

4th Battalion (chef de bataillon Comoy, Captains Gérôme, Boëlle, Bigot and Rollandes).

I'll be doing another article shortly on the tirailleurs annamites and the chasseurs annamites. There's another interesting translation problem. What does one call a chasseur in English? Should the article be entitled 'Annamese Light Infantry'?

Djwilms (talk) 01:20, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

I recognise your point and of course I agree, we should strive to make it easier to find the articles for the general reader, but I would argue that the use of rifleman instead of tirailleurs are more common in older books while today the use of just tirailleurs is more common. Both Henry McAleavy's and Bernad Fall’s books are from the sixties, while authors like Martin Windrow, Douglas Porch and Anthony Clayton uses tirailleur in their books about the French military. On the other hand it might have more to do with how speciallist the author.

The Algerian Tirailleur regiments did have four battalions instead of the normal three; it was do to the great demand in Algeria to join the tirailleurs so in 1865 Napoleon III expanded the regiments to four battalions each. I note that the 2nd Regiment don’t have the “Extreme-Orient 1884-1885” battle honour the 1st and 3rd have for the service during the Sino-French War so I don’t think it that regiments fourth battalion. Instead it seems logical that it is the fourth battalion of the 1st Regiment, each regiment sending two battalions are more likely than one send three and the other just one. It also fits 1st and 3rd battalions from the 3rd Regiment together with the 2nd and 4th from the 1st Regiment.

Personally I don’t like the translation of chasseur as light infantry, it suffers from the same problem tirailleur/rifleman does and additional there where Light Infantry Regiment (Régiment d'Infanterie Légère) in the French Army until 1854 and after that there was still the battalions of the Light Infantry of Africa (Infanterie Legere d'Afrique), the penal units of the French Army. Chasseur is, together with tirailleur, one of few cases I favour keeping the French word, like I have done with the 9th Parachute Chasseur Regiment article. Additional there is also the case with Jäger units that existed in Germanic-speaking countries where Wikipedia often keep the German word Jäger. Carl Logan (talk) 18:28, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your thoughts on Comoy's battalion. It would indeed make sense for it to have been the 4th Battalion of the 1st Algerian Rifle Regiment. I recently bought Anthony Clayton's Histoire de l'armée française en Afrique, hoping for enlightenment there, but while he gives a lot of interesting information on the other formations he says very little about Turco organisation. Just one paragraph would have been enough, but it's not there.

Ah yes, the good old African Light Infantry, whose presence in Tonkin did so much to reconcile the long-suffering Tonkinese to French rule. General de Courcy called them 'the dregs of the army', and he should have known. It might have been better if the army ministry had sent both battalions earmarked for the Far East (the 2nd and the 3rd) to Keelung, where they could slaughter the Chinese without annoying civilians. They deserve a Wikipedia article, perhaps under that name. In my book, and in some of my Wikipedia Sino-French War battle articles, I usually call them zéphyrs, just as I usually call the Algerians Turcos. You might enjoy the following paragraph from Captain Garnot's book on the Formosa expedition. Being a zéphyr officer, I suppose he had to stick up for his men, but I think it's easy enough to read between the lines:

The African battalion was a remarkable unit. The chasseurs were all young soldiers, who had joined the battalion after a spell either in military prison or in the workhouse. They had all fallen foul of the law many times before their call to the colours. They called themselves the zéphyrs or 'happy ones' (les joyeux). Not one had a clean charge sheet. They are always ready to steal and loot. They like to make a show of being indisciplined, but they are not really. They are quick to crime, but also capable of good actions. The crucial thing is to have the sense to overlook their defects for the sake of their good qualities. Eager for a chance of fame, they count their lives as little, and are determined to win notice by getting themselves into the most extravagant scrapes. Accustomed to a harsh life in southern Algeria, they are used to a daily round of fatigues and privations. With nothing to expect from life, they make poor soldiers in garrison, where they freely indulge their baser instincts. But on campaign, especially a demanding campaign, they become wonderful instruments of combat, thanks to their endurance and their unbelievable spirit of adventure. Such men must be led by an officer with an iron grasp, but with deep reserves of humanity and justice. He should be a man of few words, sparing of advice and praise, but prompt in decision and quick to enforce his will. The zéphyr becomes an incomparable soldier as soon as he grasps that the will of his officer will, in the final analysis, overbear his own, and that his officer will always give him the protection and justice which he has a right to expect. Do not ask him just to carry out the bare minimum of the army's daily tasks, but use him to the limit. Punish him without pity, but let the punishment fit the crime. The battalion has a saying, that the joyeux needs his bread, his loan, and his prison cell.

Does Douglas Porch use tirailleur? That's a very strong point in favour of your own usage. I'll have a look at his book on the Legion tonight, see how he deals with the problem, and get back to you. I think he is one of the few writers on the French army in English who has managed to deal with French terminology sensibly, so that it doesn't intrude too much. A couple of years ago I read Martin Windrow's The Last Valley, on Dien Bien Phu. I enjoyed it very much, and thought that overall it was very well written, but I couldn't cope with the alphabet soup he used when referring to French and Vietnamese units. You had to keep on referring to the order of battle in the Appendix to work out who he was talking about.

Djwilms (talk) 01:21, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Da Nang

But it wasnt called Tourane until the French won was it? It was never called Tourane by Vietnamese. Although lots of older western books use Tourane even when referring to traders going there in the 1600s... YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) paid editing=POV 05:12, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

I think the majority of readers who wish to know more about the 1858 siege of Da Nang will have come across it in Western histories that refer to it by its traditional European name, Tourane (it was not just called Tourane in French, but in English too and in other European languages). On a similar issue, I recently had to defend the title of my article Pescadores Campaign, dealing with the French capture of the islands in 1884, against pressure from Taiwanese contributors who wanted to replace 'Pescadores' with Penghu, the Chinese name for the Pescadores Islands. I made exactly the same argument, readers' convenience, and was upheld.

I think it is sufficient to mention in the article that Tourane is the city now familiarly known in the English-speaking world as Da Nang, and I have done so. You make the point that it was never called Tourane by the Vietnamese. Was it Da Nang to the Vietnamese in 1858? If so, my gloss '(modern Da Nang)' needs to be changed to simply '(Da Nang)'.

That issue apart, I hope you agree with my removal of Vietnamese accents. Quite honestly, I see no place for them at all in any of the articles in English Wikipedia except as a gloss to illustrate the Vietnamese spelling of a place name or proper name after the first occurrence of the name in its normal, unaccented English spelling. But please don't think that I am singling out Vietnamese spelling. I am just as severe on French spelling, and in several articles on Vietnamese topics have removed references to 'Hué' where 'Hue' is meant. Thus we now have, correctly, articles entitled 'Treaty of Hue' instead of 'Treaty of Hué'.

Djwilms (talk) 06:33, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Anachronistic naming - Danang vs. Tourane

The information I have from the official website of the city of Danang shows that the French only renamed the city to Tourane after they've taken administrative control (that is, after the siege described in Siege of Tourane)[26]. Before that, the port was known as "Cửa Hàn" (Mouth of the Han River). So using the name Tourane for this siege is no less anachronistic than "Da Nang". At least Da Nang has some currency. DHN (talk) 09:57, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that the name Tourane was in common use by Europeans from at least the seventeenth century onwards, and was the name used by Alexandre de Rhodes in the mid-seventeenth century, by Pigneau de Behaine in the eighteenth century, and by all other early French pioneers in Vietnam. When I get home I'll consult Maps of Asia, a massive collection of European maps of Asia from the Middle Ages onwards, and see how early the name appears. It's certainly not anachronistic to use it for an event that took place as late as 1858. A more interesting question, in my opinion, is the origin of the European name, and I'll see whether the website you mention sheds any light on that.

Djwilms (talk) 01:13, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Tributary

I don't think any Vietnamese views it as such, as they hardly ever came and were tokenistic. Not as though China had any control over what happened in Vietnam, except a few attempted invasions, although I bet most Chinese would say that VN belongs to China Tibet style.... YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) paid editing=POV 07:06, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

How much of your book is on WP? YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) paid editing=POV 07:06, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Most of my stuff on WP is either an expansion or contraction of stuff that will be going in the book. For example, I don't quote the text of the Tientsin Accord word for word in the book, which is one reason I have put it on Wikipedia. On the other hand, most of my battle descriptions are considerably shorter on Wikipedia than they are in the book. The only battle description at present that bears a close resemblance to what's in the book is the one of the Battle of Dong Dang. To give you an idea of how much I have shortened things, the Siege of Tuyen Quang, at present a fairly short Wikipedia article, gets a 30-page chapter in the book. The book, by the way, will be around 600 pages long, in 21 chapters.

Djwilms (talk) 01:12, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

WP:Hornbook -- a new law-related task force for the J.D. curriculum

Hi Djwilms/Archive 2,

I'm asking Wikipedians who are interested in United States legal articles to take a look at WP:Hornbook, the new "JD curriculum task force".

Our mission is to assimilate into Wikipedia all the insights of an American law school education, by reducing hornbooks to footnotes.

• Each casebook will have a subpage.

• Over the course of a semester, each subpage will shift its focus to track the unfolding curriculum(s) for classes using that casebook around the country.
• It will also feature an extensive, hyperlinked "index" or "outline" to that casebook, pointing to pages, headers, or {{anchors}} in Wikipedia (example).
• Individual law schools can freely adapt our casebook outlines to the idiosyncratic curriculum devised by each individual professor.

• I'm encouraging law students around the country to create local chapters of the club I'm starting at my own law school, "Student WP:Hornbook Editors". Using WP:Hornbook as our headquarters, we're hoping to create a study group so inclusive that nobody will dare not join.

What you can do now:

1. Add WP:Hornbook to your watchlist, {{User Hornbook}} to your userpage, and ~~~~ to Wikipedia:Hornbook/participants.

2. If you're a law student,

• Email http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:Hornbook to your classmates, and tell them to do the same.
• Contact me directly via talk page or email about coordinating a chapter of "Student WP:Hornbook Editors" at your own school.

(You don't have to start the club, or even be involved in it; just help direct me to someone who might.)

3. Introduce yourself to me. Law editors on Wikipedia are a scarce commodity. Do knock on my talk page if there's an article you'd like help on.

Regards, Andrew Gradman ^talk/_WP:Hornbook 05:02, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Hi Djwilms

I am delighted you like Randier's La Royale, and thank you for the wonderful document about the Tonkin medal! Best regards Phg (talk) 04:47, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Nestorians

Eurasian landmass

Hi Djwilms, I'll be delighted to help on the Nestorians, and I am really glad you like the Rabban bar Sauma map: it's been an extremely interesting subject to research! For maps, my personal method has been to use Commons topographical maps such as these, and then to complete them with text, arrows etc... with Power Point, which happens to be the most convenient software I have for this purpose. I then copy/paste the page in jpeg format, and save everything on my desktop as a Web Page, which gives me an uploadable jpeg map. I guess it would be even easier and more elegant with a drawing software, but that's a bit beyond my confort zone. I lost the source for the Rabban Map, but I have uploaded a topographical map of the Eurasian landmass (attached) which you can crop and edit at will. Tell me how things are going and if there are ways I can help further. Best regards Phg (talk) 09:19, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Hi PHG, Go have a look at the map I've just uploaded into my article Dioceses of the Church of the East. I've been experimenting, without much success, to get good quality reproduction of the Powerpoint map I did. I've found that saving in JPEG format loses quality (perhaps I'm doing it the wrong way). I've tried uploading a pdf version (edit my image by replacing jpg with pdf and you'll find a much better version of the map, also uploaded to Wikipedia. The only problem is that I can't make it appear on my page. Don't know why; I'm sure it's something incredibly simple. Can you help? Djwilms (talk) 03:59, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Hi Djwilms! Your map looks quite amazingly good already! If jpeg definition is the problem, usually I copy the full Power Point page into the next page as a "Microsoft Power Point slide object" (in the Paste options), then stretch the slide object in question (quite beyond the actual size of the page), and only then copy and paste it in jpeg format, to finally squeeze the new jpeg image within the boundaries of the page. This allows to achieve high definition. Maybe a quite good alternative would be to simply "Print Screen" (Screen capture) your map, paste it in Power Point, and Save as a Web Page to fing the jpeg file in the Web Page folder. Best regards! Phg (talk) 04:08, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

The Military history WikiProject Newsletter : XLI (July 2009)

The July 2009 issue of the Military history WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you.
This has been an automated delivery by BrownBot (talk) 19:19, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Reviews and article ratings

Why don't you just make sure that each paragraph has at least one citation, then they will all meet B-class easily. Or you can use teh MILHIST reveiw services YellowMonkey (cricket photo poll!) paid editing=POV 08:16, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Here: Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Review. But I guess you know about this already. olivier (talk) 05:00, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

New Template

Hi Djwilms! Here's the new template your requested. Hope it works for you! Best regards. Phg (talk) 12:37, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Visiting Taipei

Hi Djwilms - yes, I live in Taipei (the county not the city, but it's close enough). Any time you're considering coming over here, just let me know, I'd be happy to meet up. Taiwantaffy (talk) 01:15, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Nominations open for the Military history WikiProject coordinator election

The Military history WikiProject coordinator selection process has started; to elect the coordinators to serve for the next six months. If you are interested in running, please sign up here by 23:59 (UTC) on 12 September!
Many thanks,  Roger Davies ^talk 04:24, 7 September 2009 (UTC)