André de StCoeur

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WP:VIET

Thanks for your contribtuions to Vietnamese history articles. I've provided you a link to a project on Vietnamese topics on Wikipedia. YellowMonkey (click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model!) 02:29, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Orthographie anglaise

Bonjour, mon vieux,

I saw your latest edits to Treaty of Hue (1883), some of which hyphenate Vietnamese place names. Until recently I also used to spell Annamese names with hyphens (e.g. Thuan-An), but was reported to the Wikipedia thought police for doing so, and after being beaten with rubber truncheons was enjoined to use conventional modern English orthography, which eschews the hyphen. (See the discussion near the top of my talk page.) I am therefore going to revert your equally ill-considered edits to save you from a similar fate.

Hue (accent) should be spelled Hue (no accent) in English. The article should therefore be entitled Treaty of Hue (1883). I haven't yet plucked up the courage to amend the title, as it was not created by me and will only bring down the enforcers on my head again. But, please, can we stick to Thuan An and so on. I've just got used to that spelling in my book, after spending six months weeding out the hyphens.

Djwilms (talk) 01:24, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Hello, young chap

Thanks for the info. I still believe that when quoting someone - and still more when quoting a legal text - one should keep the text exactly as it is (except for evident typos). Neither Vietnamese nor modern English (nor modern French - but we write Hanoi and Saigon) use hyphens for Vietnamese names, but an original text is an original text. Will you translate de Négrier's quotes into "jeune de banlieue" slang to please the Wikipedia thought police? Will you replace Tourane, Cap Padaran, Poulo-Cécir de mer, etc. by modern names? Will you talk about the Ho Chi Minh City Treaties of 1862 and 1874? Use modern English in the text, not in the quotes! Hope you hear my great-grandfather making bubbles behind me - he is furious that you dare change a text he spent so much time drafting and re-drafting to get the Nguyễn Văn Tường scoundrel swallow it pour la plus grande gloire de la France et de sa mission civilisatrice.

By the way, I modified the "Vietnam" part of Jules Patenotre des Noyers (no ô because of the primitive anglo-saxon keyboards). I will develop the "China" part later.

By another way, I wonder what is this book you often quote: Thomazi, Auguste « Histoire militaire de l’Indochine française » Hanoi, 1931. I know (but I do not have - it is too expensive) Aubert (général) et Pasquier, P. (1930), « Histoire militaire de l'Indochine française, des débuts à nos jours (juillet 1930) établie par des officiers de l'Etat-major du général de division Aubert, commandant supérieur des troupes du Groupe de l'Indochine», Hanoi et Haiphong, juillet 1930, 2 vol, 232 + 306 pp. As far as I know, Thomazi has nothing to do with it.

By a third way, I noticed that your real name appears at the top of your dicussion page.

By a fourth way, Liu Yongfu is coming slowly (I have put the draft on my French page, but it disappeared).

--André de StCoeur (talk) 17:18, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Mmm, I'm inclined to argue that I have done my duty by providing the original French text exactly, and that in an English translation I am entitled to follow the normal modern rules for spelling Vietnamese names. (Had it been a British treaty of 1883 which used spellings such as Tongking and Lang-Son, I would of course have reproduced the text exactly). But I can see your point.

In answer to one of your rhetorical questions, Tourane has indeed become Danang (with neat Vietnamese accents) in my series of articles on the Cochinchina campaign. I would much prefer it to be Tourane, as that was what it was called then, but c'est la vie.

I have reverently removed my yellowing copy of the Histoire militaire from my shelves, and blown the dust off the title page. You are right that Aubert and Pasquier are mentioned on this page, but not as its authors. Pasquier is merely mentioned as the governor of Cochinchina at the time, and even Aubert modestly assigns the authorship to his staff officers. During the past seven years I have made a close study of both Histoire militaire and Conquête de l'Indochine, and there are so many verbal similarities that I am convinced that Thomazi (doubtless on Aubert's état-major) was the main author of Histoire militaire, even though he is not formally credited with it. However, I have perhaps gone too far in formally attributing authorship to him. Is it normally attributed to Aubert and Pasquier? If so, I suppose I had better follow convention.

Djwilms (talk) 01:41, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Chinese Pretensions

Bonjour, mon vieux,

Thanks very much for that exhaustive treatment of the relationship between China and Vietnam. Clearly, I need to study the pre-French period in much greater detail. As you say, tribute missions (or whatever we should call them) were indeed sent to China by Vietnam prior to Gia Long's reign. And in Minh Mang's. This is a shame, as I had been hoping to demonstrate that China's pretensions to suzerainty over Vietnam had little or no basis in historical tradition, thereby strengthening the case for France's benevolent intervention in Tonkin. Alas, I shall now have to reconsider. This is what comes of relying on Jules Ferry's parliamentary speeches as a source, instead of Deveria.

Nice kowtow illustration. I was recently re-reading the account of Lord Macartney's embassy to China in 1794, or whenever it was, and half the book is taken up with negotiations on whether he was to bow, or curtsey, or go down on one knee, or grovel. The Chinese escort to the British embassy flew flags proclaiming 'English tribute', hoping that the barbarians wouldn't be able to read them. Macartney decided not to make an issue of it, but kept it up his sleeve as a useful grievance that could be deployed as a bargaining chip on another occasion.

Djwilms (talk) 01:03, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Casualties

Sir,

The description of the Battle of Bang Bo (Zhennan Pass) does not fit with the one given in the article on Feng Zicai - note that the latter article does not include any reference, but may have been influenced by the prolific and highly unreliable Mitch Williamson 1884-1885 Franco-Chinese War.

The numbers given in the paragraph “casualties” in Battle of Bang Bo (Zhennan Pass) (146 killed in the five units mentioned) do not tally with the number of casualties on the French side at the top (74 killed, less than the 79 killed in Verdier’s brigade - see Harmant 1892 p.235). Moreover, on 21 August 2009, anonymous "66.108.141.251" has still reduced without any explanation the number to 63 (and other figures as well). I did not revert it because the original figure seems wrong.

More generally, are you sure the numbers of casualties you provide for "the French" include those of Vietnamese units under French command?

--André de StCoeur (talk) 01:20, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Hi Andre,

French casualties were 74 killed and 213 wounded. The lower figure of 63 dead in the infobox is wrong, and I have amended it accordingly. I'm not sure where it comes from. I thought at first it might be just the French casualties on 24 March instead of on both days, but there were 70 French dead on 24 March, not 63.

The casualty figures include those for the Tonkinese Rifles, who were scarcely engaged. The French used them to bring in the wounded rather than in the front line. Here's a convenient summary of the Bang Bo casualties from my book:

The 2nd Brigade's casualties on 24 March were 70 killed and 188 wounded, bringing its total losses during the two-day battle to 74 killed and 213 wounded. Seven officers were either killed or mortally wounded during the heavy fighting on 24 March, and six more were seriously wounded. The butcher's bill was not quite as bad as at Hoa Moc, but it was worse than in any of the battles of the Lang Son campaign, even Bac Vie. Unsurprisingly, the unfortunate 111th Line Battalion suffered the heaviest losses (31 dead and 58 wounded), but Diguet's Legion battalion (12 dead and 68 wounded) ran it a close second. The 143rd Battalion also suffered appreciable casualties (17 dead and 48 wounded), as did Schoeffer's Legion battalion (12 dead and 34 wounded). There were only a handful of casualties among the Tonkinese riflemen and the two French artillery batteries, but they included chef de bataillon Tonnot of the Tonkinese Rifles, who was wounded.

I don't have Harmant immediately to hand (you mention his figure of 79 dead, I'll need to look at that again), but I have based my casualty figures on a careful comparison of several French primary sources for the battle of Bang Bo, including Harmant: Armengaud, Lang-Son, 40–58; Harmant, La vérité sur la retraite de Lang-Son, 211–35; Lecomte, Lang-Son, 428–53 and 455; Maury, Mes campagnes au Tong-King, 185–203; and Notes sur la campagne du 3e bataillon de la légion étrangère au Tonkin, 32–40. I have also taken into account discussion in secondary sources, including Bonifacy, À propos d’une collection des peintures chinoises, 23–6 and Thomazi's two accounts (Histoire militaire de l’Indochine française, 111–12 and La conquête de l’Indochine, 254–7).

I have seen the grotesque description of Bang Bo in the article Feng Zicai, and I will replace it with an accurate account when I have time.

Thanks for pointing this out. Constant vigilance against the forces of chaos seems to be necessary on Wikipedia.

Djwilms (talk) 01:22, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

P.S. I've now replaced the nonsense in the article Feng Zicai with a factual account. I still need to add footnotes.

Djwilms (talk) 08:01, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

I have used the new English Feng Zicai to finalize the French version fr:Feng Zicai - which may include inaccuracies!

--André de StCoeur (talk) 11:34, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Hi there,

I've just read your account of Bang Bo and Ky Lua in fr:Feng Zicai. I think you've given a very good account of what happened between 23 and 28 March 1885. Two minor cavils. De Negrier was still in charge when the Chinese attack at Ky Lua was decisively repulsed, so I think he should take the credit, not Herbinger. Secondly, Herbinger decided to retreat not because he couldn't bear the sight of thousands of Chinese corpses piled up in front of the French trenches, but because he had received reports of Chinese movements that led him, wrongly, to conclude that the 2nd Brigade was being outflanked and would be surrounded unless it abandoned Lang Son. You've probably seen the brief description of Ky Lua in my article Retreat from Lang Son. I intend to turn it into a separate article eventually. The battle gave a foretaste of the carnage routinely inflicted on the Western Front 30 years later.

Djwilms (talk) 01:55, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Modifications done. I have no proof that Herbinger was impressed by the butchery of Ky Lua - I just guess so. Note that your grand homme François de Négrier is called Oscar de Négrier in France - see Talk:François_de_Négrier#Name.--André de StCoeur (talk) 17:22, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

I now nod vigorously in agreement at every one of your well-turned sentences in fr:Feng Zicai. For the time being, let's put on one side the question of whether M. le lieutenant-colonel Herbinger was swaying alcoholically in his saddle as his lignards poured volley after volley into the advancing Celestial hordes.

Sorry, I missed your comment on de Negrier's Christian name. By all means, change the name of the article from Francois to Oscar. Sad though, as Oscar doesn't have the same Gallic ring in English as Francois. One inevitably thinks of Oscar Wilde, not at all the sort of chap that Oscar de Negrier would have wished to be associated with.

The surname de Negrier connotes a gentleman who made his wealth from the slave trade, does it? Slaving used to be called 'blackbirding' in English, though I don't think our blackbirders actually went as far as adopting a name indicative of their occupation. There's English hypocrisy for you: the French are far less mealy-mouthed.

Djwilms (talk) 01:48, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Picture of Oscar de Négrier

Hello my friend

On page fr:Discussion:Oscar_de_Négrier user Kilom691 kindly indicated that a picture of your superhero was available here. I have posted it on Wikipedia Commons, but I am not too sure about the copyright and the "categories"

Djwilms' idol

. --André de StCoeur (talk) 23:53, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Merci, my old. As a matter of fact, I possess that very issue of Le Petit Journal, so might get around to scanning the cover at higher definition.

Talking of the great slaver, do you know anything about the controversy that surrounded his escape from Metz after Bazaine's capitulation in 1870? I have another issue of Le Petit Journal which shows de Negrier making short work of two Prussian uhlans who foolishly got in his way. There were allegations from the Germans that he had broken his parole. It's not really relevant to my Sino-French War book, but I'm just interested.

Djwilms (talk) 01:16, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Publishers

Yo, Andre,

Thanks for the congratulations. It's also 'temporarily out of stock' on the Anglo-Saxon derivatives of amazon.fr, viz. amazon.co.uk and amazon.com. The publishers seem to have thought that supplying Amazon.co.uk with 10 copies would keep them quiet for a year or two, whereas I have already bought up their entire stock myself, just to give to friends and family. Either they or I don't understand the concept of marketing. For example, they haven't even put a product description on amazon.com yet, even though I have told them more than once that most copies of the book are likely to be bought by Assyrians living in the US and Europe. Perhaps they take the view that there is a limited market for the book, and that those who ARE going to buy it will do so anyway sooner or later and don't need encouragement. That is not a view that I share, but there we are. I don't suppose you want to write a review for me on amazon.fr, do you? I would happily supply you with a glowing tribute (in English).

Ah yes, the book on the Sino-French War. Believe it or not, that is now next on my agenda. When I have recovered my faith in British book marketing, I might offer it to East and West, since they did a good production job on The Martyred Church. If they are not interested, Hong Kong University Press is, so it won't lack for a publisher. The book is very nearly finished (Francois replaced with Oscar throughout), and might even see the light of day next summer. I need to get it done by then anyway, as I have a contract with Gorgias Press to publish an English translation of the Ecclesiastical History of Bar Hebraeus by December 2012.

I was introduced in Hong Kong to a Scottish fellow the other day, who had lived in Taiwan for several years and is very interested in the island's history. By the most extraordinary of coincidences, one of the first topics of conversation he raised was the forts at Tamsui, and their connection with the Sino-French War. The mutual friend who had introduced us said, 'As a matter of fact, David is writing THE book on the Sino-French War.' Such moments happen rarely to me, and I confess that I made the most of it.

Djwilms (talk) 05:53, 3 October 2011 (UTC)