User talk:Brianann MacAmhlaidh/Archive 2

Ragnall/Raghnall

Very nice work on these. Do you think you could merge them? Looks done anyway and the later form could simply redirect. Some of the Raghnalls are surely Ragnalls in the primary sources, as you certainly know. I see you created the latter/former after the former/latter. Plus what do you think we should do with Rognvald?

Oh and I can't resist, so see Crom Ua Donnubáin for the Sliocht Raghnaill. Obviously there is occasional sniping from the "real" Irish because no one else has a pedigree this messed up, incomplete, and overloaded with foreign names in rather critical places, except for the Clann Somhairle. It's a total disaster. John O'Donovan's ingenious solution was to say most of them had Danish wives. I don't know who still believes him. He, the editor and translator of AFM, just ignored the fact that the Limerick royal army were last seen in O'Donovan territory in 978 and never heard from again. Then it takes up the better part of a page in a famous Irish epic of sorts and Todd just let it go. But from the 1970s scholars are much braver and a recent title on Irish families just went ahead and said "possibly Norse family" as innocently as possible, as if it would be that simple. The family themselves are a bunch of sissies and keep on insisting they're 100% Gaelic Irish patricians. But I digress as usual and really do mean the real subject to be the royal given name Ragnall. Redirect? Do I alliterate? DinDraithou (talk) 23:58, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

There's no problem with merging the content and list, it'll make a more thorough article. I wonder if the title should show both names, to treat them equally. Do you think it matters when dealing with older names? I did something like that with this article on two modern names -> Randal and Randall (given names). I didn't want anyone to take offence with the thought that their name was merely a variant of the other, or that one was 'superior' to another. I've seen touchy IPs make edits concerning things like that in surname articles! So, what should it be titled?

When working on those names I came across this English village -> Ragnall. Any idea who could have been the 'name-father'? I wondered if it could have been one of the Uí Ímair? This webpage just notes the Domesday Book, so maybe 1086 is as far back as anyone knows [1].

I've got a copy of A Dictionary of First Names, and it has a section on Scandinavian names. It has a blurb on Ragnvald, and says it is derived from the Old Norse Rögnvaldr. It doesn't specifically say which language Ragnvald is a name in. For some of the other names it mentions whether a name is Danish, or Swedish, or Norwegian. So, I suppose Ragnvald must be a name in all three modern languages? I have no idea. I'm not sure what to do about the various Old Norse forms of the name. All the instances on Wikipedia ought to be linked up on one page, to make searching easier. I don't what the name of the article should be though. Just use Rognvald? I guess titles aren't a big deal, they can always be changed, it's the content that counts.

I've got a question about Gaelic. We've got "Echmarcach mac Ragnaill". Search that on GoogleBooks and it turns up a number of hits, but in West Over the Sea Downham has his name as "Echmarcach mac Ragnall" (no i in mac Ragnaill). Is that just a typo?

Alot of Ragnalls in Crom's family. Rickard sticks out too, do you think that this entered through an Anglo-Norman family of some sort? What do you know of the name Anseslis? I've never really come across it before. This bit on the O'Donovan pedigree states that the name 'indicates a Danish connexion' p. 2437. It doesn't seem to be a Gaelicised Norse name according to this -> [2], or A Dictionary of First Names, but neither are really specific (A Dictionary of First Names just says it was 'originally a byname' meaning blah-blah-blah).

Crom's grandfather was named Ragnall, do you think it likely that this man was the 'name-father' of the various Ragnall descendants of Crom? I suppose it's possible that they could have been named after family members on their own mother's side, but I wonder if Crom's grandfather was the real reason. Is he the first of the family with that name? Was he a dominant character among O'Donovans? Someone whose name would have been taken up by his own descendants? Do you know how the name could have entered the family? Forms of Ranald are common amongst MacDonalds today, and I think that their 'name-father', in most cases at least, must be Somerled's son Ragnall. Somerled's wife was Ragnhild, daughter of Olaf I Godredsson, and the name was common within the Manx-dynasty. I love how it's sometimes possible to see how certain names enter into families. How they entered into use so long ago and are still used by people with certain surnames to this day (even if some or most aren't truly male-line descendants, there's still a real link with the name). I love that. I wonder if there was truly a 'name-father' of all of the old Irish/Hebridean/Manx Ragnalls/Rögnvaldrs. Could he have been one of the Uí Ímair, could it have been a shadowy Ragnarr, or did the name come from the earliest earls of Orkney - Rognvald, Earl of Moer?--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 06:21, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

In the case of the O'Donovans they have a direct connection with the family of Ragnall ua Ímair himself. His likely grandson Ivar of Waterford either was married to a daughter of Donnubán or the other way around. Several of Ivar's children and grandchildren were named Ragnall and the name is noted in later centuries in Waterford too. One of his children he named after Donnubán and at least since the 19th century the occasional source has said, like the Encyclopedia Brittanica at one point, that there are modern O'Donovans who actually belong to the Waterford Uí Ímair, no kidding. I have no idea where this originally came from. But at least as early as Duald Mac Firbis there has been confusion and he said that the Mac Raghnaills of Carbery or Cork in general descend from the first Ragnall Ua Donnubáin now appearing in the pedigree, namely Crom's grandfather. Interestingly this Ragnall is missing from the probably earlier O'Clery pedigree (ends with Rickard), which just makes the whole thing look even more fabricated, and yet in the 17th century the Sliocht Raghnaill were still in existence in O'Donovan territory. Who knows if they were identical with the family Mac Firbis was referring to. Oh and Carbery had maritime connections with Waterford, and the O'Donovans' own personal harbour, Glandore, was on the west side dominated by the Sliocht Íomhair and on the east by the Clann Lochlainn. Hardly surprising. But Lochlann and a son of Íomhair actually appear in a 13th century contemporary Norman document. Back to Ragnall I Ua Donnubáin, the 18th century pedigree by Collins, which I have not seen, says he was someone important, at least locally and within the family... assuming he was a "genuine" O'Donovan, if there has ever been such a creature, and not another import from the Gaill, another maternal grandfather added to the male line like would seem to be the case with the earliest Amlaíb, whoever he really was.

But it looks to me like Ragnall ua Ímair is at least the ultimate source for the name throughout Ireland, the Irish Sea, the Isles, North Britain and so on. He wasn't perfect but he put his family back in York, and before that was the initial leader in the Irish expedition, which we know from his special styles in the Annals of Ulster. Ragnall was hugely important and his article could be quadrupled in size. Angus has made a fantastic start. I think Ragnall and Raghnall (given names), your solution to the later problem, is innovative and great! I think Rognvald is best for Røgnvald and all the rest of the Norse forms. How that -ø- changes around is complicated and inconsistent. The -r- is only the nominative ending and it ends up in the wrong grammatical conditions in English. In fact it looks and sounds positively ridiculous in English. Finn and I joked about it ages ago. Answering your question about Ragnall/Ragnaill, yes that was a typo because the -i- makes the genitive, required in any mac, Ua, Uí, contruction. But that's about all the Gaelic I know.

Interesting about the English village. No idea but worth investigating.

The meaning and ultimate origin of Aineislis are uncertain but it is of known exclusive north Munster origin and restricted to only a very few families. Besides the O'Donovans, who brought it with them from up there, it is also a popular name with the O'Grady family, who anglicize it Standish. Stanislaus is or was also sometimes chosen, but by whom I'm not sure. I get all this from Ó Corráin's Gaelic Personal Names if I remember correctly. DinDraithou (talk) 09:35, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Nice work with Ragnall, Raghnall, and Raonull (names). Now we need some more kings to list! I'm going to try Ragnall mac Gofraid (of Northumbria) eventually but you are responsible for all those of Man and the Isles, where I'm very weak. Your Gofraid Donn is a masterpiece.

Here is the 1910 Encyclopedia Brittanica (see bottom of page).[3] So I think I'm going to write a paper and title it something like "The O'Donovan family and the Descendants of Ivar". I have a distant cousin who is a scholar at Trinity College in Dublin and just got an email from him last night on an unrelated matter concerning the "family" arms (all are for individuals), so now I feel more confident because I thought he had completely disregarded me a couple of months ago. He is the Brian Donovan mentioned in the main article, who is a descendant of the lords of Clann Lochlainn, and who has already co-authored a book.[4] I think there is actually a need for a paper making clear that the family is not some sort of strange and irrelevant discard sept of the Norse-Gaelic royal family, but actually a once normal provincial Gaelic family which absorbed, because of its location in northern Limerick and later Carbery, one or two minor septs of the House of Ivar, which was enormous and certainly had people to spare. And the Scottish clan model is very relevant. There were undoubtedly other cases once in Ireland but the O'Donovans are the only ones who survived the 17th century. Maybe the Cork Historical & Archaeological Society would publish me because they love this sort of material. DinDraithou (talk) 20:12, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

I didn't answer you about Rickard above. It is peculiar, and I agree it should be Anglo-Norman in origin. Eventually the name increased in popularity in the family to become one of the very favourites. Back to Aineislis, I feel foolish now because I didn't go to the link you provided at first and see that part of what I and O Corrain said was already said by Woulfe. DinDraithou (talk) 20:33, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

I've only seen snippets of Ó Corráin's book on GoogleBooks, same with Woulfe's (which should be out of copyright by now and freely viewable..). I'd like to get actually get my hands on both them. I love how Woulfe used an old Gaelic type, with the dotted consonants etc, I suppose his book dates from the revival era when printing Irish in that way was at it's height. I've just been Googling different types/scripts/fonts, trying to find a 'good' free one to use, and have discovered a whole new world - the wonderfully weird world of Gaelic scripts [5][6]! When I read your comments the other day I looked for O'Donovans/Donovans on ysearch, and Googled for any surname projects, but really only a few of the name have bothered doing that kind of testing. It'd be interesting to see if the present representatives Clann Lochlainn and Clann Cathail linked up (or not). The genetics of present day Donovans could be completely scrambled if families were absorbed into the fold at such an early date. But since that was so long ago, maybe the 'outside' lines have diminished over the years and haven't quite worked their way down to the present day. Hopefully someone's on the lookout for a possible genetic link between Donovans and Anglicised forms of Mac Raghnaill (Reynolds/McRannal, whatever). I definitely think you should take a stab at writing a paper, either on the family or on Ivar (like you mentioned to Finn on Ivar's talkpage). It honestly sounds like fun. You've certainly have the ability, and also the enthusiasm and fire for it. At least you won't be feel hemmed in with the OR restrictions here, so it could be of some relief.-Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 08:34, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

I don't know what the deal is with the O'Donovans not doing the testing. Maybe those with the real pedigrees are a little less confident than they act publicly. Also the mighty and famous O'Neills have had problems and have recently been accused of not really belonging to the Uí Néill because they seem to mostly have a different genetic signature, of uncertain origin, from the other Uí Néill princely families. This is based on testing of unpedigreed O'Neills, but now the O'Neill princes themselves seem unwilling to test as a result. The O'Donovans are nowhere remotely as prominent and so it could be they just don't care. Maybe I can get Brian to buy a kit? You're so right about looking out for a possible genetic link to names possibly derived from Mac Raghnaill. Probably there are English Reynolds in Ireland to confuse the picture, and those of other origins too.

There is an early and very short version by Woulfe that is fully viewable and downloadable.[7] You have indeed discovered a wonderfully weird world of Gaelic scripts out there. It scares me! Here is Peadar Ua Laoghaire's modernization of the Munster epic Cath Maige Mucrama in that script.[8] The O'Learys belong to the Corcu Loígde and Ua Laoghaire is a major figure in the history of modern literature in Irish. You may or may not be familiar with the epic, which is interesting, in translation.[9] There is an Irish Texts Society edition and translation by O'Daly, full of scholarship and related tales, which I would love to have. This has nothing to do with Gaelic scripts but we did talk about the O'Learys once, and you said they have relatives on Lewis, right? DinDraithou (talk) 20:48, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Din, many of the GoogleBook links you give I can't view/download for some reason! If it's viewable for you, could you download it and email to me? Does his Sloinnte Gaedheal is Gall turn up for you in downloadable form on GoogleBooks? If it does could you send that to me too? Sorry to ask you for that but I'd love to see that and fiddle around with Gaelic names on here.

Oh yeah, it is kinda funny how sometimes the families who claim to represent, or are thought to represent these glorious lineages don't contribute to DNA projects. They've got everything to lose I suppose. Like in Sykes' book on DNA, and the 'Somerled-signature', he noted that he had to make an agreement with the (then) five MacDonald chiefs - that if even one of them didn't link up genetically he wouldn't publish the results without their permission.

Haha, total sidetrack here but I'm fascinated by this little bit: Right the Macaulays who claim Lewis ancestry on ysearch seem to be related to men with 'Munster surnames' - especially O'Leary - rather than other Hebridean surnames (like I mentioned to you before). The Lewis Macaulays have a peculiar name in their family which is rendered in English Zachary (and in modern SG Sgàire). According William Matheson, this name is likely derived from a Old Norse nickname, skári, meaning "sea mew". And the Oxford Dictionary of Names gives this as well, so I guess this is the standard thinking at present. But what I think is really interesting is in 17th century account of the three 'original' families on the island: the ancestor of the Macaulays is described as "Iskair Mac.Awlay ane Irish man whose posteritie remain likvise to this day in the Lews". Matheson figured that this account must preserve the first two names of the family: Amhlaidh and Sgàire. But hold on.... an early 20th century historian mentioned this account and footnoted an observation: in Icelandic Irskar means "Irish". So.... could Matheson have been grabbing things out of thin air - just aiming for a Norse etymology of Zachary? Could that name, which has be reused within the family since time immemorial, have originally been a nickname for someone from Ireland - from Munster? Maybe!--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 05:02, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Don't mean to butt into a private conversation, but noticed the mention of the DNA angle. Also, Brianann, just read your Gofraid Donn. Exceedingly well-done. As far as the y-Dna lines of these ancient families, do you know if there are currently any a-Dna studies underway, or would there be any remains that might lend themselves to testing at some point: e.g., bones in tombs and such? Thanks, and interesting conversation. MarmadukePercy (talk) 05:56, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Google turned up two Donovan DNA projects: [10][11]. Not much studying has gone on though from what I can see. The 'Clan MacAulay' one doesn't look like it has it's act together either [12] (at least publicly). This one is interesting, it's a personal page, but a lot of work has been put into it; it's about the MacLeod DNA project [13]. It mentions how they've got 175 kits, and "58 participants who share a common ancestor have 95% TMRCA of cr. 1605 - 1705" [14]. The cadet lines from of the Harris/Dunvegan branch, and those of the Lewis branch apparently link up (the Lewis branch is said to have split off from the main line with Torquil MacLeod - he's one of the first of the MacLeods on record). So the thinking is that about one third of the MacLeods tested descend in a straight line from Leod. There's a 'MacLeod sept' project here [15]. Interesting how some of the MacAskills are R1a. Their name is Norse-Gaelic; and one of the earliest of their chiefs according to tradition was named William, and you can see a couple Williamsons link up. I was going to to an article on the MacAskills but I only had one source really, so I've just kept it as a draft until I find some more on them.

Din will know of the burial places of the Donovans. I think Iona would be a fun place to go bone collecting. Scots kings, Norse kings of Isles, clan chiefs, you-name-it, were all buried there. When I did the Fairy Flag article there was a bit about the line of the old standard bearers of the MacLeods, about how they were buried - it totally captured my imagination. See this paragraph: Fairy_Flag#Description_2. The tradition is that when the one standard bearer died, his body went into a stone coffin and was laid on a grate; and when the next in line died, the bones of the first one were slid through the grate and fell below to make room for the new body. When the last of the line died, his daughter walled up the tomb forever. The picture below that paragraph is inside the church where the standard bearers were placed. If there was ever any doubt about the DNA of the chiefs, I suppose someone could just prey open those tombs to see if there is any remains left. The early Kings of the Isles were buried on Iona (I think). Some of the later ones were buried in Rushen Abbey I believe, but it's in ruins today. I don't know if anyone knows where the tombs were, or if there's any hope of finding their remains. I'd love to see DNA tests done on the remains, or suspected remains, of the old kings of Britain and Ireland. Did you see this story from earlier in the year [16]? If they're going fiddle around remaking his face, they should at least try and see if he has living relatives! Here's another story from earlier this year - they found a burial pit of dozens of decapitated bodies in England [17]. Here's the wiki-article: Ridgeway Hill Viking burial pit. They're supposedly 10th century or 11th century Vikings. Analysis of some of the bones shows that some of the slain were from Scandinavia. It'd be cool to see if those guys have any relatives living today. The BBC article on the pit states: "Most of them were in their late teens to early 20s, with a handful in their 30s". I wonder what happened to them; what were they up to; how'd they get caught in the end?--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 08:24, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for all those links. Great stuff, and enjoyed the read on the Fairy Flag. That contraption was quite something. I've seen a number of those clan genetics projects. You're right: someone has put a great deal of work into that MacLeod page. It's always interesting to see which particular motif folks go with as the 'founding lineage' in these projects, if they make the attempt. I do wish there were more testing going on of ancient bones, although I know that it's not always easy to extract y-Dna from old remains, and there are of course the sometimes tricky questions associated with gaining the requisite permissions. I understand there is quite a bit of excitement about an ongoing project underway right now which is analyzing the Y-Dna markers of a set of Viking remains found in Greenland. A friend has corresponded with one of the authors behind that study, which is due shortly from Danish archaeologists and geneticists, and apparently the results are said to be fascinating. In any case, thanks much for the good reading on this subject, Brianann. Best, MarmadukePercy (talk) 09:59, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Thought of our discussion this evening while looking at this paper of recent genetics testing of remains. As you can see, they're really pushing the boundaries of what can be recovered and tested. Let's hope they'll get to work on some remains from the British Isles and Scandinavia as well. [18] MarmadukePercy (talk) 09:49, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Brianann I have sent you the pdf of Woulfe. It is not the best but all I can find. Sloinnte Gaedheal is Gall and Irish Names and Surnames are one and the same book however.

That is fascinating how the genetics seem to support the Indweller's account. And see [19] and [20]. It is also in Faroese, so it could have been current in the Isles back then. I have read that Norse (place)names were once more popular in the Isles than in recent centuries, where Gaelic forms have increased. Matheson may simply have the wrong Norse etymology. And I wonder how the Indweller could have known of the Irish septs in the late 17th century. All seem to have been either defunct or to have relocated to the Continent by then.

At least some of the Lords of Clancahill are buried at Timoleague. I have seen that small Donovan DNA project before. There were also two O'Donovans included in the Trinity College study a few years ago but I have no idea who they were. Both belonged to the so-called Eoganacht or South Irish group.[21] But this group also includes plenty of people from the Corcu Loigde,[22] so it may be that the Eoganachta and Erainn of southern Ireland are ultimately indistinguishable or are at least so today. We will need to see many more O'Donovans, and the right ones, to determine the fate of any possible Norse paternal lineages. Some maternal ancestry is obvious and well known but I imagine some will find it unsatisfying.

Thank you for encouraging me above to write a paper. The OR restrictions are hard, and so I can't speculate on the origins and character of Ímar Ua Donnubáin and his descendants for example. Obviously they are of considerable relevance and I know of no other family with anything like this associated with them. I have a lot to say about it. It's funny how all of this or that said over the centuries about the O'Donovans and their relations is ultimately not off the mark. There are a variety of ways you can end up belonging to different groups of people at once but the Irish have a lot of trouble with certain concepts. DinDraithou (talk) 18:04, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

I've been trying to discover when Norse was last spoken in the Hebrides, with limited success. This "source" says the 1400s,[23] while this one says "late medieval times".[24] Who knows. See also the Norn language and [25]. But the idea of a Munster origin for the MacAulays of Lewis is a fun one and I have been struck by something I should have been struck by before, that Amlaib became a rather popular name in Munster in general for a period and was widespread. It was not only popular with relatively minor septs like the O'Learys, O'Donovans, and MacAuliffes. (First of all, O'Clery main index: [26]) The O'Donoghues also had a famous Auliffe and a few more.[27] And the O'Sullivans had one or two,[28] as well as their own Domhnall Cam! Moving outwards, this sept look suspicious.[29] Then the O'Brennans of Ui Duach have a few.[30]

Back to Ragnall, there were septs in other parts of Ireland unrelated to the O'Donovans.[31][32][33][34] And here may have been another sept of the Ui Imair who attached themselves to a provincial family.[35] Obvious? Possibly these too,[36] and.[37] This sept give us some of the Mac Ragnaills above.[38] There are other possible septs if you keep searching through O'Clery. Main index again.[39] It's sad all these people have been lost track of. A number probably fled to the Continent and have many descendants there and elsewhere today. DinDraithou (talk) 19:24, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

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Halloween

Hi, noted your name on Halloween talkpage and having contributed to the article itself. While post 18Century Halloween creations (such as 'guising') are contemporary customs, there is a lengthy heated discussion about the historical origin of Halloween. Reading the discussion, editors are asking for further assistance. My own knowledge of the subject is quite limited so not worth much. Your input on this discussion would be most welcome.Xavier 21 (talk) 19:45, 14 November 2010 (UTC

Thanks for the links

Hi, no, I hadn't seen that site before with the links. Most interesting, thank you. I now do try to follow these developments and papers, especially relating to Scandinavia, the British Isles and the Indo-Europeans. It's exciting in that the techniques are coming along so fast that more and more ancient DNA is able to be sequenced and studied, which holds so much promise. I gather from a friend who's been corresponding with one of the Danish scientists involved in the study of Viking remains found in Greenland that that study will hold a few surprises. Can't wait for that. Thanks again for the links and the note, Bri. MarmadukePercy (talk) 00:41, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

Hey, I'll let you know when those results come in. (I may get a heads-up a little beforehand.) In any case, should be fascinating stuff. Thanks again for the links. MarmadukePercy (talk) 08:22, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

geoiplookup

The geoip lookup should now be better cachable, and thus not cause such large load times for you. Can you verify if the behavior has improved ? —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 23:52, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

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female chiefs and arms

Yes, I think the editor may have a point, Lozenge (heraldry) or ovals, the article Women in heraldry seems correct, see Flora Fraser, 21st Lady Saltoun for an example of Scottish oval use. I think it is probably best to use oval or lozenge, but the image is often hard to find or draw. Yours ever, Czar Brodie (talk) 13:54, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

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Hello

Hi Brianann, hope you're well. As an editor who has used the services of the Guild of Copy Editors, I thought you might be interested in knowing that the Guild is currently holding elections for its coordinators. To view the discussion and voice your opinion, please visit the election page. Thanks! – SMasters (talk) 15:02, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Irish names

Hi there. Am doing a few articles on Gaelic female names (see Dubhchobhlaigh and just want to alert you to the following source - http://www.medievalscotland.org/kmo/AnnalsIndex/Feminine/Affraic.shtml - in case you may find it useful. Great article, good work! Fergananim (talk) 16:08, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Thanks Fergananim.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 07:15, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

Irish Names and Surnames, at website. Now all we need is a copy of O Corrain and Maguire's Gaelic Personal Names,[40] alternatively titled Irish Names.[41] DinDraithou (talk) 21:47, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

Yep, the Ó Corráin book looks like a real gem. The libraryireland surname page is actually really quite recent, they only had forenames until now.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 22:12, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

I've just started Bissett family (Ireland), whom you might enjoy. They became completely Gaelic and half of them call themselves Mac Eoins now. DinDraithou (talk) 23:31, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

Yeah I noticed that. I was thinking of doing a Mac Eoin article for that, in the same vein as MacLeòid. I had no idea the surname was attached to a Norman family until I read your article. That totally surprised me. I'm interested to see what appears in the "A Greek family?" section. That made me think of the funny 'family origins' story attached to the MacCrimmons (pipers to the MacLeods of MacLeod). Supposedly, according to the last of the original line of pipers, the family tradition was that they descended from an Italian born in Cremona, and that this man emigrated to Ulster in the 1600s. Modern etymologists give a very different origin of their surname though.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 05:27, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

That is pretty funny. The Geraldines came to believe they were Florentines because theirs resembles Gherardini, once a ducal famiily of Florence. On the possible Greek origins of the Bissetts have a look at User:DinDraithou/Byset family and then User talk:DinDraithou#Doubling of t's (Bissett family). It's complicated.

Do you remember noting the strange occurrence of Riocard/Rickard among the O'Donovans? I'm 100% sure I have the answer. We either intermarried with or even absorbed a Munster branch of the southern branch of the great House of Burke, namely the Clanricardes. They had a presence in north Munster, from where the O'Donovans come, and there are at least two strange stories connecting them with us. One you will have to wait for, but believe it or not it involves none other than Ímar Ua Donnubáin. The storyteller notes he is a great-grandson of a Burke and in fact the story of the serpent involves a pair contracted by Ivor to kill it. He lands them (grants them estates) for their service. The other involves the prominent sept called O'Donovan's Cove,[42] who to my knowledge still own a large estate today. I have not seen this story but know it involves their founder traveling under the name of Burke and having to prove he was really an O'Donovan to gain lands. Something to do with a white horse. So in all probability these are maternal O'Donovans and Burkes in the male line. And then look at User talk:DinDraithou#Uí Chairbre. We have a sept called Clann Riocaird! Oh and I note that "our first" Riocard is the last generation in the probably 14th century pedigree reprinted by O'Clery. I can't believe it took me this long to see it! So I will be informing my cousins that the Burkes are family. Probably they already know that and have been wondering why I haven't mentioned it anywhere. DinDraithou (talk) 00:18, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

I must be driving you crazy. But I need your help. Does this section read like (bad) OR? DinDraithou (talk) 03:55, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

I can't really say without reading the source you gave, but if it doesn't actually state that the name could have entered into the family through the Burkes, or if it's really only your reasoning that it may have, the statement is technically OR. So, I think you might be stuck at the moment. I think it'd be OK to mention in a note or something that the name was a Burke one, and that certain traditions linked the two families in a certain time period, and that the name also appears in the Donovan pedigrees in a certain time period; but taking it much further than that is drifting into OR.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 07:45, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Excellent advice. Thank you. I've put all discussion of Richard in the note. Checking the source again I was surprised to find what I hadn't remembered, which is that the Burkes of County Limerick are mentioned specifically, although the storyteller offers no given names. Btw I've now looked at MacLeòid. Superb as always. That's interesting about MacGillycuddy. O'Hart may or may not be right but that certainly merits mention. DinDraithou (talk) 14:40, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Hehe, I hope O'Hart wasn't just grabbing things out of thin air. I wish he would have left a footnote in explanation, like an example or something, because the name sounds radically different than MacGillycuddy. I was just looking through O'Hart's Pedigrees, and noticed the Burkes and took a look at them [43]. I noticed the name Theobold, and remembered it was also the name of another of Crom's descendants. This particular branch of the Burkes used the name quite a bit. I thought there might be something to it, but from just from looking at O'Hart's book, I don't think the name goes back toooo far in the family (maybe around the 1500s or so when it first pops in). What date would you assign 'Theobold O'Donovan' (of Sliocht Tioboid)?--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 05:56, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

I don't know what line of work you're in but you are too good. First of all, I didn't even know Tioboid was Gaelic for Theobald. Now we definitely have or had at least two Burke names in the family. If you look at Mac William Íochtar, the branch of the family who became the Lords of Mayo, the earliest we find in the list is Theobald Bourke (died 1503). In fact Tioboid O'Donovan, assuming he was historical, is given as a (younger?) son of Ragnall, great or great-great grandfather of Donal of the Skins (hopefully not those of his relatives. died 1584 in any case). So allowing 33 years a generation and male fertility into middle age, we could be looking at the marriage of a daughter of Theobald Burke to Ragnall O'Donovan. But it gets more interesting. If you look at the pedigree provided for the rival Mac William Uachtar, and see also Richard Mór de Burgh, 1st Baron of Connaught, you'll see that the Burkes of County Limerick actually belong to the Mayo/Mac William Íochtar branch and not to Clanricarde. Brianann, you have found evidence supporting the account given by the O'Donovan-Burke seanchaí living by Lough Cluhir. It gets wilder: according to O'Donovan family#Clancahill (John Collins), it was the Sliocht Iomhair and Sliocht Tioboid who supported Donal of the Skins' rival Diarmaid an Bhairc. Finally I find Tiobóid mac Walter Ciotach Bourke. A Walter, from whom the Sliocht Walter, is given by Mac Firbis as a son of Aineislis O'Donovan. DinDraithou (talk) 06:29, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

I've just mentioned all of this to Brian at Trinity, who is also the CEO of this research company.[44] He may or may not (probably not) be wowed by my "discovery" of the origin of Rickard in the family but I'm hoping your connecting Tioboid to the de Burghs of Mayo will really impress him. It should have stood out more than the more common Rickard but even John O'Donovan missed it! Currently you are credited as "my Scottish friend at Wikipedia". It may take him months to respond. DinDraithou (talk) 04:00, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

I wonder what he makes of it. I think it's cool that you may be the only one who has caught on to this connection. I wonder if you can take it any further, or reinforce it some. Haha I'm honoured, though I'm not actually a Scot, I take that as a compliment! I just sent you a paper by Downham I found.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 08:20, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the paper, which will be useful elsewhere, and Lagmann mac Gofraid will eventually need an article. I've just assumed you were Scottish all along so that's what you can stay if you want! As far as taking the O'Donovan-Burke connection further, I hope this will inspire Brian himself to really look into it. I don't have anymore sources. Brian's sept (Ballymore) still use the name Rickard with considerable frequency. This is his grandfather or some relation.[45] Happy Holidays, btw! DinDraithou (talk) 21:13, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

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írskr

West over Sea, p. 35, third line. DinDraithou (talk) 23:24, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, I had totally missed that.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 09:51, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Ah cool, she notes it in Viking Kings of Britain and Ireland, page xvi: John Hines has concluded in a recent study that ‘It is indeed quite clear that the adjective írskr (‘Irish’) itself could apply in the Old-Norse sources to Scandinavians from Ireland as well as to the native Irish’.⁶--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 10:29, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

It's hard to believe we both missed both of these. Surely you would have found one or the other eventually, or some other reference. It's nice that we now have something like a new dimension to explore or examine. Have you thought about creating a new article on the term once you've been able to look at Hines? This could involve Icelandic and Norwegian history and genetics. Surely Hines provides examples of the use of the term in the sagas. DinDraithou (talk) 17:55, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

I don't know if there will be enough for an article, but I'm dying to see his book. I wonder if there is any evidence that the term was used as an individual's byname, or if it was just used to describe people in general. Thanks for the message, it actually encouraged me to start a small pdf about the whole "Irish" thing so I can send it to the guy who runs the MacAulay DNA project. I just noticed someone has a site about the Y-DNA that I was on about [46], so maybe I'll try and send it to him as well.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 09:46, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

You've reminded be to contact the administrator of the Bisset(t) DNA Project to tell him I've created Bissett family (Ireland)! I don't know why Tim Desmond has not updated his site in ages but for the Corcu Loígde who belong to the South Irish cluster see [47]. It's not just that of the Eóganachta as some would like to believe. In fact at least one notable scholar, Francis John Byrne, has questioned whether it is really possible to separate the proto-Eóganachta from the Érainn in the early centuries. DinDraithou (talk) 17:32, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Din look at this. I was right about the Munster-Macaulay connection!!!! Here's a blurb about a recent BBC Scotland radio programme about genetics. It goes on about the genetic legacy of the some of the 'Norse' clans, including the MacLeods and MacDonalds.[48]

There is a fourth distinctly Irish subtype of the great S145 marker but, like the Pictish subgroup, it has yet to be identified with a single, slowly evolving marker. Instead geneticists rely on a particular signature of more quickly evolving markers to identify members of this group. It is concentrated in Munster, and particularly in counties Cork and Kerry. It is very rare in Scotland and has only been found in the Northern and Western Isles. This suggests that it is unlikely to have spread outwards from Dalriada – as M222 appears to have done. Rather it looks as it was taken directly from South-west Ireland to north and west Scotland. A likely explanation would be that these lineages represent the descendants of Irish slaves taken north by the Vikings. This is supported by the fact that the major genetic lineage of the surname of Macaulay, the sons of Olaf, belongs to the group. It seems that some slaves contributed to the ancestral gene pool of the peripheral regions of Scotland.

I think that the slave thing is too simplistic and stereotypical explanation. Like how some people explain the R1b in Iceland as being from slaves. I think it a bit more realistic to suppose that the family descends from a someone who was employed, who had some skill or use to a Hebridean lord. There are numerous traditions in the Hebrides of families coming over from Ulster, brought over as followers of women who married MacDonalds. Remember that Hebridean book I mentioned to you, about the MacCotter flag-bearer? One of the senachies in that book told of how numerous families on Uist came over in such a marriage - between Aonghas Óg of Islay and an O'Cathan. I don't have the book in front of me right now, but it ran something like she came with '20+ fighting men, all of different surnames'. So, instead of a slave, maybe he came over during a dynastic marriage between a Munster family and a Hebridean lord, or something like that. And that he held some land for his work, and thus his descendants thrived over the years and exist as a family today. I just think a slave's descendants would have far more disadvantages against them, that it'd be almost luck that a lineage would exist and be numerous today. That would be an amazing story though. There's a really cool instance (not mentioned in the programme as far as I know) in the MacRae DNA project, where a Norweigien with a family tree back to the 1500 or 1600s is a very close match to numerous MacRaes. I remember that the project website said that the Norwegian in question suspected that he may descend from Harald Gilli! Haha. I can't wait to listen to this programme. I think it might be online sometime this week. So cool.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 07:18, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Hi. Don't mean to butt in, but noticed this piece from The Scotsman you posted. Excellent piece. I've had some interaction recently with one of the co-authors (Wilson). He knows his stuff alright. Thanks for the link. MarmadukePercy (talk) 09:58, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Here's the programme's page [49]. The streaming audio for episode 3 only has couple days left. Can't wait for the 4th. I noticed someone posted a link to it on the Rootsweb DNA list [50].--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 10:22, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Ah yes, I see where David Faux posted it to Rootsweb. Thanks. MarmadukePercy (talk) 12:04, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Fascinating! But it is really a shame about what they claim the MacAulays were. Flashy writers have had their jaws broken and much worse done for less. While you can't stop the book they should be sued imo. Obviously unaware of Munster's maritime history, they have argued something scandalous without support but which will be believed by nearly every reader around the world. That can affect social standing and make plenty of marriages impossible even today. Neither author is a scholar.[51] Moffat is just a goofy popular writer, while Wilson is just an Oxford associated population geneticist and the founder of EthnoAncestry.[52][53] They've got plenty of money to be gotten. The fact that Wilson's company is offering the Oppenheimer test makes me very suspicious of his associations and certain he is no authority in 2011.[54] Sue those pretentious fuckers. DinDraithou (talk) 16:50, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Having had some recent personal dealings with Wilson, I can say that he is nothing like what you have described him, Din. He is a renowned geneticist, who does happen to have a business. But in the field he is well-regarded, especially for his work on early Scandinavian intrusions into the British Isles. He is also a polite and helpful individual. MarmadukePercy (talk) 07:56, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

There is nothing renowned about him, Marmaduke, only your experience. I see just another pretentious nobody with an Oxford degree. They write the occasional book and some can even talk almost like experts. I'm finding nothing in Google, searching the right way, suggesting this is a person of any significance whatsoever. He's just some trip you've made friends with. I've made my fair share. DinDraithou (talk) 08:19, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

If you'll look at this piece on wikipedia on the 'Genetic History of the British Isles,' you'll note that one of the sources given is a paper by Wilson et al. of 2000. [55] That's some of Dr. Jim Wilson's work. You ought to familiarize yourself better with subjects before spouting off about them. MarmadukePercy (talk) 08:32, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Check the talk page and its archive. You've discovered one of my old drugs. But Wilson is a definite non-authority especially after hooking up with this Moffat character. DinDraithou (talk) 08:54, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

A bit of a let down - I listened to episode 4 and it didn't mention the Hebrideans at all. Haha. The lion's part of the show seemed to have been about Moffat's own DNA! Wilson thought that Moffat's Y-line was of Vikingish/English. It's actually kinda funny in a way, because I've got one of Moffat's books, one on King Arthur, and it's obvious from that one that he has a love for the old Welsh kingdoms of the north of Britain (he grew up near Kelso in the Borders). In Moffat's mind the heritage of the Border Reivers is connected to Arthur's cavalry. Anyway, how Moffat's DNA was presented in the show made like his heritage was that of the incoming English (Bernicians), rather than the natives. I'm sure he must have got a kick out of that. I would. A small blurb from the beginning of the Arthur book: "Before I go on to the meat of what I have found, I should make some confessions and assertions. As a historian I am an amateur, in the old sense of loving it, and emphatically not in the new sense of being sloppy or less than serious. I am certainly not an academic historian, not time-served and with no folio of published papers to act as pencil sketches for the big picture. Anyway, what academic would want to do something so literally amateurish as to write the history of his home town? Aside from a decent education, I only have two claims to bring to he readers attention. The first is simple: since no one asked me to do this, I am not obliged to be anything other than my own man. I care nothing for academic reputation, the conventional wisdom or the weight of opinion. These researches are founded on common sense and sufficient erudition". I suppose I'll have to wait for the new book to come out find out more on the clans. Here's another recent one that might be interesting: Viking DNA - The Wirral and West Lancashire Project.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 06:32, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Yesterday's episode mentioned the slave "hypothesis". Wilson noted that group that they Macaulays belonged to was also present in Orkney and Shetland, and said that even up there are men with Norse names who have Irish roots. He also went on about Norman surnames in Scotland (and mentioned Bruce, Bisset, Chisholm, Corbett, and Stewart). He said that a sample of 600 men showed almost no obvious Norse DNA (about 3 percent had the marker M17), and noted that a small sample of men living in Normandy today shows very little of the marker M17 (about 3-4 percent), and is no different than other areas of France. The episode is streamed here: [56]. With so many British/Irish surnames with Norman origins, I've wondered why there isn't much on the net about the actual genetics of the modern-day people of Normandy. I wonder if it's due to the language-barrier.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 06:24, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the update. I am pretty familiar with the study from the Wirral, and can give you a link to the entire study online if you wish. R1a1 is a useful marker for tracking Norse inheritance, as that study demonstrated. I haven't listened to the new BBC/Jim Wilson installment yet, but I'm not aware of any substantial Y-Dna studies in Normandy at all. The reason isn't linguistic: it's because such testing is illegal in France. As far as 'modern' British and Irish surnames of Norman ancestry, the best guide is still Lewis Loyd's definitive The Origins of Some Anglo-Norman Families. Many of the names listed are now extinct, but some still survive. It would be most interesting to see a genetic study of those bearing the names in Loyd's work, and how many carry the R1a1 marker, as opposed to other markers, including I1 and some clades of R1b. MarmadukePercy (talk) 06:34, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

I'd be interested to see the Wirral study, thanks Marmaduke. I've noticed Loyd's book used in some Wiki articles, and have seen it on GoogleBooks. The particular name I'm interested wasn't viewable for me the last time I checked, but it's viewable for me now - I suppose my IP must have changed or something. I'd like to work on an article on the d'Aubignys someday. I'll see if my library inter-loan has the book. Agreed, it'd be great to see a real study on the Anglo-Norman families. Wilson mentions how the DNA of some of the Norman surnames in Scotland is extremely diverse. I wonder if the DNA-makeup of 'English' Norman-surnames tends to be less diverse than Norman-surnames of Scotland and Ireland. That's how I imagine it to be. Maybe there's more of the original DNA from Normandy to be found amongst men with modern English surnames, rather than ones that have long been found in Ireland and Scotland. I love wondering about this subject.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 07:55, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Here's the link to the full paper by Mark Jobling et al. on the Wirral surname-based genetic study.[57] This entire topic is most interesting. Bryan Sykes has said that the genetic footprint of the Normans on England was relatively small, on the order of 2 percent or so. On the other hand, Sykes has written that the Normans were simply 'recycled Vikings,' and has obviously attributed more Scandinavian ancestry to the Normans than Dr. Wilson does. One thing I found surprising about Wilson's take on this is that some of the surnames he used as Norman are not in Loyd's book (Chisholm, for instance). So I think that by including Scottish surnames of no definite Norman tie, Wilson is diluting the value of his statement. As for Ireland, such well-known Conquest names as Prendergast, are in fact R1a1. (The Prendergasts always attributed their origins to Flanders by family lore.) Your point about England's Anglo-Norman families is well-taken: I have a strong hunch that those still bearing the old Norman names, mostly today in the 'county families,' will have a much higher percentage of Scandinavian descent than the 3 percent mentioned by Wilson in Ireland. Time will tell, I suppose, although I certainly hope that testing of those with Norman names in Loyd's work will ferret out the truth. By the way, the d'Aubignys would certainly make a great piece. They are in Loyd's book (I've owned a copy for years). As you know, the name was often corrupted to Dabney, and was both a Norman name and a Huguenot name.[58] In England, one sometimes sees the name as Albini and variants. MarmadukePercy (talk) 21:49, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

That reminds me, there's a book I've read by G.W.S. Barrow (The Kingdom of the Scots), and in one chapter he looks into into some of the 'Norman' families of Scotland. I've just quickly skimmed through it again (nothing on the Chisholms unfortunately) and in the particular chapter Barrow mentions Loyd's book in comparison to George Fraser Black (of Surnames of Scotland). Barrow notes that there are a number of surnames/families that have been assigned a Norman origin without much evidence - like the Montgomerys for example ("[Black, who] gives us an unrivalled starting-point for research into Scottish family history, was not free from the bad old habit of assigning a family with a Norman-sounding name to some place in France, preferably Normandy, with more or less the same name"). Barrow shows how Black is quite a bit weaker than Loyd in regards to Norman names. He ends the chapter with the following: "This chapter has touched on few of the questions which will rightly be regarded as interesting and important. How many Normans came to Scotland, what was their impact upon Scottish life, did they really introduce feudalism, to what extent did their menfolk bring with them wives and children, how much did their womenfolk bring in the way of personal possessions and household goods, how far did they alter the character of Scottish trade, did they learn any language but French, how did they make the long journey north and who paid their fares? These are the questions whose answers would provide the very stuff of history. They are far more interesting and worthwhile than a pedestrian search for family origins in this commune, or canton, or arrondissement, or department, rather than another five, ten, fifty or a hundred kilometres distant. Yet before we try to answer the really interesting questions about the Norman families of Scotland, and before we make airy generalisations about what we have called, in compliment to them, the 'Norman age', we ought to find out exactly who our Normans were". The last sentence has it. I can imagine how any DNA studies can be skewed with a less than accurate analysis of the names/families as a foundation. Your point about researchers using iffy names/families is bang on I think.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 08:40, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Many thanks for the Barrow file. Much appreciated, and I'll have a look. On the subject of the Scotto-Normans, I checked with a friend who's an academic in England and knowledgeable on the subject. The difference in the respective Y-Dna of the Normans in Scotland and England, he says, owes much to their different origins. The Scotto-Normans were heavily Fleming and Breton, both of which would be more heavy in the Celtic clades of R1b. The 'English' Normans, in such places as Cheshire or Sussex, for instance, would likely have a larger presence of the more 'Norman' component of William's followers. Geneticists Bryan Sykes and Stephen Oppenheimer have both conjectured that the signature of the elite component of the Normans was likely Scandinavian – i.e., Dane and Norse. So in the traditional confines of the Anglo-Normans, the old county families, for instance, or those bearing names from Loyd's work, both Sykes and Oppenheimer believe that the heavily Scandinavian haplogroups I1 and R1a1 would have a good representation. In other words, there's a substantial difference between the Scotto-Normans and the Anglo-Normans in terms of background, accounting for the different genetic mix. Incidentally, there's an interesting new book coming out soon by Dr. Turi King [59], George Redmonds and David Hey called Surnames, DNA and Family History. King's work has focused on men from Northern England with surnames suggesting Viking origins (such as the Wirral study). This new book apparently will focus on the ties between surnames and genetic inheritance. From the publisher's description: "This book combines linguistic and historical approaches with the latest techniques of DNA analysis and show the insights these offer for every kind of genealogical research. It focuses on British names, tracing their origins to different parts of the British Isles and Europe and revealing how names often remain concentrated in the districts where they first became established centuries ago. In the process the book casts fresh light on the ancient peopling of the British Isles. The authors consider why some names die out, and how others have spread across the globe. They use recent advances in DNA testing to discover whether particular surnames have a single, dual or multiple origins and whether various forms of a name have a common origin. They show how information from DNA can be combined with historical evidence and techniques to distinguish between individuals with the same name and different names with similar spellings and to identify the name of the same individual or family spelt in various ways in different times and places. Clearly written and illustrated with hundreds of examples, this book will be welcomed by all those engaged in genealogical research, including everyone seeking to discover the histories of their names and families." MarmadukePercy (talk) 20:35, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

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Hi, I thought you might find this of interest.[60] Best, MarmadukePercy (talk) 02:09, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Definitely, thanks Marmaduke.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 08:26, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

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Scottish heraldry

Thank you very much, you are very kind! Sodacan (talk) 15:33, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

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CFD follow-up

You recently participated in this discussion. There is now a follow-up discussion here. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 22:43, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

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Camus Cross

Thank you, I'm glad you liked it. Having grown up hearing the story of the Battle of Barry presented as fact, I was initially disappointed to learn that it was, to all extents and purposes, fictitious, but the truth is arguably more interesting.

An interesting case is that of the Battle of Dun Nechtain... It was clearly an important event, but the details of it are sparse. Dunnichen in Angus was identified as a possible location in the 19th century, but what evidence we have needs to be shoe-horned in to fit that location. Still, it's caught the public imagination and most local people now seem to believe it. Interestingly, there was an earlier local tradition that it was the location of the Battle of Camlann, where King Arthur is supposed to have been killed... Catfish Jim & the soapdish 10:19, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Postcode maps

I've uploaded a test map for the ZE district, see commons:User:Nilfanion/Maps/Requests#Postcode boundaries. It will take me some time to process the whole of the data, but just want to check I'm on right track.--Nilfanion (talk) 12:33, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

SBN

Hello, Brianann MacAmhlaidh. You have new messages at Wikipedia:Help_desk.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

 Chzz  ►  13:38, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

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"MANOR" OF NEWTON

You need to be aware that Dr Cawley (Neautone 1), along with Lord O'Hagan and Manorial Auctioneers, may be the subjects of legal action by lawyers representing Lord Clitheroe and the Assheton family. Cawley has bought a bogus title and in so doing, inadvertently trepassed on property belonging to another. I am a Cambridge academic and co-author of the authoritative history of Bowland published in early 2010. I have no axe to grind here but this man must not be allowed to post his false claims on Wikipedia. It could potentially drag all of us into a legal dispute. The "manor" of Newtion had not existed since the mid-C14th when its manorial rights were subsumed into the Manor & Liberty of Slaidburn. THe Manor & Liberty of Slaidburn were duly purchased by the 1st Lord Clitheroe in 1950.

Manorial (talk) 11:29, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Just to add that I will be adding the detailed HM Land Registry references to the Slaidburn and Newton pages. I accept and respect the need for detailed referencing.

Manorial (talk) 17:48, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

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Something not strictly true on User talk:Hayley92

It is allowable for a person to edit Wikipedia under more than one account -- to use account X to edit subject A and account Y to edit subject B, or similar. What is not allowable is if a person's multiple accounts edit the same pages, pretending to be different people ("sock puppetry"). AnonMoos (talk) 10:14, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

I think I might have him

Brianann, I think I might have moments ago just solved the riddle of Ivar of Limerick's parentage. Reading the form given in the Cogad without correction we have Ímar ua Ímair, which has been criticized from the beginning of scholarship because Ímar I died too early, in 873, to have been his grandfather. So this has been silently corrected to the surname Ua hÍmair, or he has less frequently been dismissed from the dynasty entirely. Possible close relations might have been Maccus and Gofraid of the Isles (suggested in the 19th century based on the confused account in the Dublin Annals of Inisfallen), in which case likely making Ivar a member of Sitric Cáech's branch, or Amlaíb mac Gofraid (suggested online by an amateur researcher), in which case Gofraid ua Ímair's. Both were involved with Limerick in different ways. Ragnall's branch does not seem to have been much if at all.

We have forgotten someone, namely their brother or 1st cousin Ímar ua Ímair, killed in Scotland in 904. I am surprised he has never been suggested before. Perhaps I have missed it, but I don't think so because this would have been repeated. It is possible that the author of the Cogad has simply extended this person's lifespan by associating him with Ivar of Limerick, whose patronym is not supplied by the surviving annal entries, but our author did have a variety of annalistic sources now long lost where he may have found it. The Cogad is today regarded by the majority to be more accurate than not, mostly suffering from exaggerations, not problems with basic biographical details like patronyms.

I know you are not so much into the Irish world but you are the reigning researcher among us. Are we looking at a namesake of a namesake? Am I the winner? This guy could have been based somewhere in western Scotland or the Isles originally, explaining his association and rivalry with Maccus, who would be his 2nd or 3rd cousin. DinDraithou (talk) 21:40, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

I really have no idea, I just don't know enough about any of these figures. I don't have a proper understanding how the interacted with each other. Get back to me in a year or two. Haha. Is the 904 Ímar the one listed in as a ruler of Dublin?--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 04:02, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, that's him. He was the one forced out of Dublin, and the theory is that since he was probably also overking of the Scots, they took the opportunity to rebel, and he was killed trying to quash it. Then Ragnall became head of the family. Of course I now have to create an article for whom I guess we can call Ímar II. Won't be difficult. In Ivar of Limerick I now have him mentioned as a possible grandfather and don't think it's OR. More like solving an easy math problem, by saying 2 + 2 is possibly equal to 4, but in this dimension it may not be. Perhaps there is nothing higher than 3. DinDraithou (talk) 02:50, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

More than a few times I've come across Viking Age rulers in the British Isles and Ireland being drowned. Was that some sort of ritualistic way killing a king? Something like how early Gaelic kings went through the rigmarole of 'marrying' the lands the were to govern. I've been trying to find examples of drowned kings - for some reason I can't find any right now! Do you know anything about that? Or am I confused?

It's amazing how vicious Godred Crovan's family was. Lagman and his younger brother Harald battled each for the kingship, and when Lagman caught Harald, he had him blinded and emasculated. Lagman's youngest brother Olaf eventually became king but was axed to death by Harald's three sons (one was a Ragnall). Then Olaf's son Godred is said to have blinded two them and killed the third. Godred's younger brother (also a Ragnall) seized the island for a while, but was captured and Godred had him blinded and emasculated. The island was later invaded by yet another Ragnall, but luckily for this one he died in battle. Amazingly Godred named his eldest son Ragnall! This Ragnall's son Godred Don ended up being blinded and emasculated after being defeated in battle by his uncle Olaf the Black (Ragnall's younger brother). One of Olaf the Black's sons (another Ragnall) was killed probably at the behest of a son of Godred Don who then coincidently became king. I just noticed that one of Magnus Barelegs' supposed sons, Harald Gille, spent his childhood in the Isles, and as King of Norway he blinded and emasculated one his rival nephews. I'm just skimming through something called "Killing and mutilating political enemies in the British Isles from the late twelfth to the early fourteenth century: a comparative study", and the author only mentions the "Isle of Man" in one measly footnote! He completely missed the Crovan dynasty's family tradition. Have you come across anything like that in Ireland? Every generation of Godred Crovan's royal-family ripped itself apart, and in the end family ran out of legitimate males to succeed.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 08:41, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Nicolson's Leap on the east coast of South Uist. Looks pretty - dodgy history?

I came across these stories during my recent tour of the local royalty, and wondered if this "blinding and emasculating" malarky was a genuine local custom or a good tale that kept getting repeated about whoever the tale-tellers were spinning against. Either way the religious leanings of some of the kings in later life suggests that there was no shortage of visitors to the monasteries by middle-aged knights wishing absolution of some kind from their morally dubious activities. I fear this sort of thing went on all the time - see e.g. Nicholson's Leap at Clan MacNeacail. Ben MacDui 16:57, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

30 feet? Can it be jumped today? I've found myself staring at the gap trying to guesstimate. See also O'Donovan's Leap. DinDraithou (talk) 05:59, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Ah, I totally forgot about Nicholson's leap. One antiquarian noted that the same tradition is found throughout the Hebrides: on Lewis, Mull, and South Uist, and thought there were others islands with the same tale ("Gorrie’s Leap"). He noted that Gerald of Wales mentioned a very similar tradition in France (see 'A similar accident happened at Chateau-roux in France ...' bottom page 77-78) - the same thing: a prisoner seizes a lord's son and forces the lord to mutilate himself in order to save the boy, but once the lord does so the prisoner then jumps to his death taking the boy with him in spite. Look at this article: Shooting an apple off one's child's head. It's about how that particular tale has been rehashed through the ages. I've just remembered this story from The Telegraph I read long ago. It's about how a scholar who studied Little Red Riding Hood stories from across Europe, Africa, and the Mid-East, and believes that they have a common origin, at least about 2,600 years ago. In my mind the emasculation-leap stories must have a common origin as well. Someone could go island-hopping and gather all of them up and do a proper study on them. Hehe. I think the account of brutality of Crovans is probably pretty close to the mark because just about every generation did it to each other. I've read that the chronicle was intended to help legitimize the family's claim to the throne, so I doubt they'd add invented stuff about slicing each other up like that. If the leadership of the isles was that brutal, you can imagine how crazy it'd be in the outer fringes. Crazy.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 07:14, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) The O'Brien dynasty did some mutilating but I can't recall which members. Their category:O'Brien dynasty is large. The De Burgh dynasty also had some issues, including a Burke Civil War. William Donn de Burgh, 3rd Earl of Ulster starved his cousin to death. On the other hand, the O'Neill dynasty, so far as I know, usually just had rivals assassinated. In South Munster, you might have guessed, the O'Donovan family, although only of regional/local importance depending on the period, have the worst reputation, but this is considered partly undeserved. Back up north, the O'Donnell dynasty were known for being particularly violent but I don't know their history as well.

You're thinking of Turgeis who was drowned. Possibly he was a petty king. I feel like I should be recalling more, but I've just had the thought that maybe it was symbolic because they were coming from the sea? I may never find it again, but I once came across the speculation that a slain-in-the-heat-of-the-moment O'Donovan was once sunk in a tidal pool because of the family's pagan associations, and this within the last three or four centuries. And then we have our family underwater known for reappearing above the surface. There is an O'Donoghue necromancer living underwater nearby Ross Castle, and the Geraldines have a few of their own.

The Crovans were hardcore to the extreme and the way you describe it needs its own section in their article. I like to think the House of Ivar were too hardcore for their own good and their descendants on the Isle of Man seem to have inherited that. Supercharged. Their maternal descendants around the world aren't exactly known for being wimps either. Maybe it's the names. DinDraithou (talk) 17:55, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

If you put "king picts drowned" in a GoogleBook search, the first hit mentions two 8th century Pictish kings drowned, possibly an 8th century Cornish king, a few instances in 9th century Ireland (Cináed mac Conaing, Turgesius too, also Amlaíb Conung drowned a King of Mide), and a few others later in Irish history. The author says that Byrne (1973) stated that drowning as an execution probably came from the Norse, but the author notes that it happened in Ireland long before (in the 7th century). I suppose we'll never know. Maybe it's really just a coincidence and there is no connection. I know that one of the sons of the founder of the MacDonalds of Sleat, was thrown into a sack and drowned off Uist by some of the MacDonalds of Clanranald. Maybe that kind of thing just happens!--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 07:14, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

I guess it does, with water convenient everywhere, and people occasionally looking for something which will get a little more coverage in the news than death by weapon. But see also Toutatis, Ivar Vidfamne, and Bog bodies. I have read, can't remember where, that the Celts thought lakes and so on were entrances to the Otherworld, but some of our examples so far don't seem to involve this. Byrne has nothing more to say about drowning than what the other author reports. I should be recalling examples from Irish mythology but cannot yet. DinDraithou (talk) 16:09, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Maybe we should start "Category:Medieval Celts murdered in repulsive ways" as a start to a research project? I'd be happy to provide other examples if I come across them! This is all quite off-putting and I must find someone with a more inspiring historical contribution to the Isles to work on as a penance for providing publicity for these wicked Norse-Gaels.... Ben MacDui 07:41, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Penance completed - good to be able to find a descendant of the Norse-Gaels who lived a life of blameless virtue. Needless to say Y chromosomes are absent. Ben MacDui 10:29, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

That's a nice article. I wish I was able to write them quickly. We do need more women. I started Máel Muire ingen Amlaíb and Cacht ingen Ragnaill back in February and should work more on them, but I fear that because of later events no trace of either will be found in the surviving genealogical corpus. DinDraithou (talk) 16:09, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

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Crovan dynasty

Who creates the article? This is yours and you know it. DinDraithou (talk) 06:02, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

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DYK for Lagmann mac Gofraid

The DYK project (nominate) 12:04, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Fixing the Ulster Border Chieftains Compass

Saw that you deleted if from the McCann surname article; I am fixing the dead photo link. Give me a heads up if that is what you found objectable, or something else that can be fixed?IndtAithir (talk) 12:41, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

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COA

Hello. You're probably right about Mc Dougall COA. I'll remove it from Battle of Dalrigh and Battle of the Pass of Brander. Thanks for the help. DITWIN GRIM (talk) 08:31, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

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Contact

Dear Briannann,

Many thanks indeed for your help. I couldn't believe how quickly you responded. It has taken me since then to try to work out how to contact you to say thank you. I must say that the whole website is extremely complicated! I wanted to make the web page on Henry Jermyn less inaccurate, and have done so: I must say that I am rather put off trying to actually add new content to it, but I may have a go later on. In the meantime, at any rate, I am most grateful to you for your friendly response.

Very best wishes,

Anthony Adolph Anthony Adolph (talk) 09:17, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

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