User talk:Blackngold29/Archive 5

Ballparks list

Some good additions. My main concern right now is whether it will get AFD'd and what can be done to pre-empt that, if anything. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 17:42, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Good ideas. Maybe it could be mentioned at the project page and see if anyone has any interest and/or criticism. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 17:52, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Heinz and Pitt

Blackngold, as far as I know, Pitt did not contribute a dime to the construction of Heinz Field. The terms of the lease and rights to the stadium are pretty secretive. The scuttlebutt is that Pitt was "encouraged" by the state to move their home games to Heinz in order to help sell the community on its tax contributions for its construction (6 additional events held there annually). In turn, money that had been held up for various reasons was released by the state for construction of the Petersen Events Center. There would be no official source for this, as it is mostly hearsay, but there is probably some truth to it. In the end, in lieu of $100s of millions it would have cost the school to renovate Pitt Stadium, the University had $400-600 million release for the construction of the Pete, a project whose scope was increased due to the freeing up of the land Pitt Stadium was built on and allowed for the associated student activity complexes inside to be added to its interior. Pitt supposedly got favorable lease agreements at Heinz, including shared permanent signage, etc., as demonstrated by Panther logos cut into the gates and molded into the seats, as well as space in the Great Hall. I believe that the Steelers (or stadium authority) retain all monies from parking and at least a cut of concessions, but the Steelers have the rights as a primary tenant and probably sublease the use of Heinz to Pitt. Exact terms of the lease to the Steelers and Pitt are closely guarded, however, the Steelers and Pitt have a long history of facility collaboration including the sharing of Pitt Stadium, Cost Sports Center, and the UPMC Sports Performance Complex. That is all I know, but it probably isn't verifiable enough to go into a wikipedia article. CrazyPaco (talk) 17:10, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

As you could imagine, the move into Heinz was quite controversial among Pitt alumni/boosters, and it easily be said that it was a defining decision for the administration of both athletic director Steve Pederson and Chancellor Mark Nordenberg. There should be many articles available in the Post-Gazette archive about the move and closing of Pitt Stadium (circa 1999). Also, try the University Times archive.

I wonder how long before someone decides that the Panthers need to move back to campus, for whatever reason. That's how the Golden Gophers engineered a new on-campus stadium to replace the Metrodome which had replaced the on-campus stadium they used to have. I guess they threatened to move if they didn't get a stadium. They deserve a new stadium, to support teams like last year's, with just one victory as a blight on their near-perfect 1-11 record. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 23:12, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

There is no where near campus to even consider placing a stadium so it is a non-starter.CrazyPaco (talk) 23:29, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

They could always tear down a few buildings - like the ones they built where Pitt Stadium used to be. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 23:36, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

That would follow this bit of dialogue from Horse Feathers: "Do we have a football team?" (Yes) "Do we have a college?" (Yes) "Well, we can't support both. Tomorrow we'll start tearing down the college." Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 23:37, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

They actually built the $200+ million Petersen Events Center there. The problem in Oakland goes beyond just land, but also includes infrastructure like adequate roads and parking. There is no going back to Oakland anywhere in the near future.CrazyPaco (talk) 21:53, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Phillies managers FLC

I've renominated the List of Philadelphia Phillies managers for WP:FL. I'd appreciate another review of the list if you've got the time. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 19:21, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Psychosocial

On the Psychosocial page, the song is listed as nu-metal. I've heard the song, it's not nu-metal at all. I saw you're discussion saying it's Metal. It has one of those hidden messages not remove it unless you have a source, I have no idea how to put a source so I left it. I'm thinking you might want to take a look at it since you seem big on Slipknot on Wiki. Thanks 68.103.26.131 (talk) 19:39, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Re: Slipknot FT

I've asked that the FTC be withdrawn for now. We've got some work to do to get the topic to meet the featured criteria. I think it makes sense that the Demos and Video Albums should be included, and so we should get working on those. Both Slipknot Demo and Welcome to Our Neighborhood really need more content, so if you've got references available to help expand those, please bring them forward and we can all work on them together. Thanks! Gary King (talk) 16:13, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

I suppose they could pass GA then, if we don't have anything more to add. Gary King (talk) 16:28, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

AHIG

Hey whats up man there's an interview here... you may be able to use it for info on AHIG, I dunno. [1] [2] If you are going to you're going to have to site the TV program and find out when it aired and all that. Oh and while I'm here I thought I may just tell you that that besides my internet problems, I still won't be able to edit Wikipedia soon. I'm moving away to University next month and I don't have a PC of my own so I'll be without a PC for at least a year. I may come back to editting when I get a PC and everything but I can't promise anything, but yeah keep up the good work, maybe get another Slipknot editing buddy lol. You can put my name on the ianctive lsit of WP:SLIP too, because I can't acces that page. REZTER ^TALK ø 11:08, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Article improvement drive

So is there any reason that the article improvement drive has paused? I can update it myself, but I wanted to make sure there was wasn't some specific reason it was on hold. Thanks, Fractalchez (talk) 14:32, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Penguins captaincy for 2008-2009

Does Sid have to be "announced" as captain every year? Aren't NHL captaincies assumed to be in perpetuity unless revoked or otherwise specified? What counts as an announcement, anyway? Opening Night? (he's listed with the "C" on the team roster, as are Gonch and Sydor with the "A"s, for what that's worth). ConkblockCity (talk) 22:39, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Actually, even if Sid did get hurt and missed the entire season, he'd still be the captain. The club would have to designate a new one. (See 2006-07, where we had no captain, or this year, where they didn't even name anyone temporary captain.) Isn't speculating about under what circumstances the club would designate someone else captain more speculative than just acknowledging that right now Sidney Crosby is the captain for 2008-09? If MT or Shero fall down and get hurt before the season starts, then we have no coach or GM, either. ConkblockCity (talk) 00:52, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Because there is no "announcement". He is referred to as the Penguins' captain right now, hence he is the Penguins' captain for the 2008-09 season. If he gets hurt the day after the season starts, they may or may not name someone else. Until anybody else is named captain, he is the captain. The position isn't vacated during the summer. What's so difficult about just accepting that he is viewed as such by the organization? (I'll concede you the A's only because there WAS an announcement last year. But you only announce the captain once.)

I'm sorry if I sound petty, but just looking at "Captain: TBA" feels like an error. How is it different than the remote possibility we could have a different coach or GM by the time the season starts? ConkblockCity (talk) 01:39, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Harmon Killebrew GA

Greetings. As you were the user who nominated the article, I thought I'd let you know that I will shortly be reviewing it to see if it fulfills the GA criteria. Nosleep (talk) 02:46, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

The one picture that was in the article is now gone. Apparently someone thought a blurry photo of a publicly-displayed banner might bring a lawsuit against wikipedia. So it be gone. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 03:23, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Well it still has one two, and pictures aren't required at all for GA (they are for FA). I am starting my review now. Nosleep (talk) 05:25, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

I meant the one picture of Harmon. Yes, it still has my photos taken at the MOA. So we don't get to see Harmon, just his name on a street and his chair hanging on a wall. But we have to be safe. Lawyers are lined up at the door waiting to sue us for posting pictures. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 06:03, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

I sense a little bitterness in this one :P Anyhow, the review is complete. There are a few issues holding it back from GA status. I've put the article on hold for one week to give the editors time to address them. I will revisit the article in a week, or if you feel the issues are taken care of sooner than that, you're free to let me know at any time. Nosleep (talk) 07:58, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

I get very tired of the deletionists' paranoia. I'm not sure where to find the supposed GA issues, but I don't really care at this point, as Harmon's page is no longer on my watch list. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 08:06, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Stadiums

My focus has never been on Featured Articles and such, but it could be worth a try. Be aware that for the rest of this month, I will have only limited availability to wikipedia. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 02:48, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm unclear on what you want me to do. There's already a substantial article on Wrigley Field, for example. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 03:10, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't do in-line citations. I can't figure them out. So I try to present facts with parenthetical citations and let the experts reconfigure them. I also don't know what to cite. As many facts as the Wrigley article has, you could end up with half the article being footnotes. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 03:22, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

All Hope Is Gone (album)

There is currently a good faith editor trying to start an edit war. He won't look at the talk page when I tell him to, and I'm out of reverts. So can you please come and help? Thanks --The Guy _complain ^edits 01:49, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Another Attack on David McCullough

I think there's another Argyle2006 sockpuppet vandalizing the David McCullough article. Could you look in on it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Desperado57 (talk • contribs) 04:45, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Merging Slipknot Demo

At User_talk:Malleus_Fatuorum#Advice_requested it has been suggested that the album's article be merged into Slipknot because it is so short that it will stay a stub forever. Your thoughts? We need to resolve this one way or the other if we want to eventually go for a Featured topic. Gary King (talk) 23:04, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Both Slipknot GANs failed. I think we should merge Demo and/or merge Welcome, depending on how much more information we can find. Gary King (talk) 15:17, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

That sounds good. Shall we go ahead with it or consult Rezter first, as he might have a different opinion on this? Gary King (talk) 16:01, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

PR sounds good. This advice also sounds good. Gary King (talk) 19:12, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

I'll open a peer review for both for now. Gary King (talk) 20:02, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

PRs now open on both and I've asked for feedback from some guys. As for Slipknot Demo, now that I think more about it, it does make sense to merge; a lot of that info is somewhat repeated in Slipknot (band) and so doesn't have to be mentioned again (personnel, for instance, is a huge section that isn't vital, especially since those members are mentioned again in Slipknot's main article). If you want and can, then feel free to merge. Gary King (talk) 20:14, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

I think we're pioneering a lot of new directions. I don't think there has been a live FA album, or a GA demo album – the existing FTs for discographies don't have demos, at least. Gary King (talk) 20:32, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Sparta

Hi. I am trying to drum up enthusiasm for a major rewrite of the article on Sparta, which I am in the process of revising. I saw your post on Akaricloud's talk page and you seem to be keen on the idea. I don't mind if your total experience of Spartan history is watching 300 - I quite like that movie, although I know how inaccurate it is (and isn't. The most accurate thing in it is actually Queen Gorgo.) If you are willing to read a couple of books and make a few notes, I can point you in the direction of some good ones. If you would rather tell me what you would like to do and let me work out if I think it would be useful, that's ok too. Think about it and get back to me. I think that if enough people want it to happen, the Sparta article can get featured status. But that's a long way off right now, and it will only happen if we all work together. Cheers. Lexo (talk) 23:32, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for such a quick response. One thing you could do that would be enormously helpful would be to have a look at the 'Military life' subsection and provide proper citations for it. Take a paragraph like the following, for example:

When the Spartans began military training - aged seven - they would enter the agoge system for the education and training—everything from physical training such as hunting and dancing, to emotional, and spiritual training. At that age they would have to go through what was known as the gauntlet. They would have to run around a group of older children, who would flog them continually with whips, sometimes to death. As they were lightly clothed, and had no bedding to speak of, children would often put thistles in their pallet because the prickling sensation made them feel warmer. On leaving the agoge they would be sorted into groups, whereupon some were sent into the countryside with nothing and forced to survive on their skills and cunning; this was called the krypteia, believed to be an initiation rite to seek out and kill helots who were considered to be troublesome to the state, or were found to be wandering the countryside with no good reason.

None of this is actually inaccurate or wrong, but no sources are provided for any of the assertions in it. If you could look up some books that would provide evidence for any of this, and provide proper citations, that would help a great deal. A good book to look up would be Paul Cartledge's Sparta and Lakonia: A Regional History, which is the standard modern one-volume English-language history of classical Sparta. If you want to read a reliable popular history of Sparta, the same author's The Spartans: An Epic History is the best I know. (Cartledge was a historical adviser on the 300 movie but on the whole they ignored his advice.) Other useful books to get you into the right frame of mind are the Penguin Classics edition of Plutarch, On Sparta, and also Herodotus' Histories and Thucydides' History of the Peloponnesian War, but in general it's better to stick to modern histories because using original source material can lead to violations of the wikipedia guidelines against original research. There are useful guidelines and templates about citing books which you probably know, but in case you don't you can find them here. Many thanks. Lexo (talk)

00:05, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your public support on the Sparta talk page, btw. I've already noticed that one major topic I didn't include in the draft plan was a section on the role of the Helots and the Perioeci. See, the reason why the Spartans were such a formidable military power was that after a certain point in its history, every single free-born Spartan male of fighting age was obliged to be a full-time soldier. They spent literally all their time drilling and exercising (and occasionally, fathering the odd child and also having adolescent boys as lovers, but that's another side of the story). They were only able to have this incredibly well-trained army because all the donkey work in Sparta - and I mean all of it, the baking and the building and the cleaning and the weapon-manufacturing - was performed by two classes of people, the Helots and the Perioeci. The Perioeci were people from around Sparta who were technically free but whose land was under Spartan control; they weren't allowed to vote in the Spartan assembly or be elected to office, or be allowed any political rights at all. They were just expected to work for the Spartans. The Helots were, basically, slaves; they also came from territory around Sparta but the Spartans had kicked their ass in combat and didn't give them any freedom to do anything apart from work for the Spartans. (It's a bit more complicated than that, but not much.) Most of the Helots came from Messenia. So you can see that for the Spartans to be free, other people had to be slaves. This is not one of the most admirable things about Sparta, but it has to be taken into account in an article on the subject and right now it's not very clearly touched on. This is a topic worth looking into. The existing WP pages on the subjects are not very useful. It's one of the things that 300 barely touched on. (Likewise, I thought it was funny that Leonidas in the movie referred to the Athenians as 'boy-lovers' because all Spartan men were basically obliged by law to have adolescent boys as lovers. It was part of the training process. See Agoge.) Lexo (talk) 22:11, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Forbes Field

The remnant of Forbes Field is not outside Hillman Library, but in the vicinity. (The librarly resource facility isn't on campus or in Oakland, it is in Point Breeze and just serves as an overflow storage facility for PItt's library system) The Forbes Field wall is outside Posvar Hall, which was built directly on top of Forbes Field. The home plate of Forbes Field is preserved near its original location in the floor of Posvar Hall. On Pitt's campus there is also a brick outline of the rest of the outfield wall were it used to be outside Posvar. Mervis Hall was also built on part of Forbes Field outfield. Mervis Hall is actually the closest building (a ref that mentions Mervis) to the wall which sits pretty much at the location the photo on the top of the page was take from. The wall pretty much lies between Posvar Hall, Mervis, and the Mary Schenley Memorial Fountain/Frick Fine Arts Building. See the map here. The current article on Forbes Field describes the location of the wall and other artifacts accurately. CrazyPaco (talk) 21:44, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

The boundaries of Forbes Field were Sennott to the northwest, Bouquet to the southwest, Joncaire to the south or southeast, and Schenley Park Drive plus Schenley Park, to the north or northeast. Looking at Google Maps, here's what I'm seeing:

-Sennott was closed off.

-Hillman Library sits behind where the left field corner bleachers used to be.

-Forbes Quadrangle aka Posvar Hall occupies the space formerly occupied by the left side of the grandstand and the left side of foul ground as well as some of the fair ground, as well as part of where Sennott used to run.

-Roberto Clemente Drive is a somewhat curving street that runs from roughly where the first base grandstand was to where left field was.

-Another building (apparently Mervis Hall) sits across Clemente Drive where the old right field grandstand area was.

Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 22:49, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, Hillman was built before Forbes Field was torn down. Construction on Hillman started in '65 and was completed in '68. Forbes closed in 70. They existed side by side. There is more information about Pitt acquiring Forbes Field in Alberts' history of Pitt, see pgs. 266-268 starting here. I think one road was closed for sure. CrazyPaco (talk) 18:36, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

I think this link [3] shows Hillman as well as a circular building which I take to be the original portion of the Posvar building. Seems like Pitt was just waiting to pounce on that property. The fact they kept part of the wall as a remembrance (as well as Bill Mazeroski Field, behind that wall) speaks well of Pitt's respect for the area's heritage. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 18:48, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

That's a great photo. The circular building is David Lawrence Hall, a large lecture facility for Pitt. Here is a newspaper article describing the wall area (officially dedicated as Center Field Plaza in 1976 (I didn't know that before)...see here, here, here and here. I'm not sure if the entrance gate replicas are still there though. Off topic, but Pitt has done some wonderful reconstructive/refurbishment work on buildings in the area that it has acquired..most notably the former Schenley Hotel (now the William Pitt Union and the former Masonic Temple (now Alumni Hall) which were both restored to the former glories. The Schenley was the hotel where visiting ball players (as well as the well-to-do celebrities) visiting the city would stay. Pitt has also done great work rehabilitating Bellefield Hall, Schenley Quadrangle, Ruskin Hall, and their Music Building for academic usage. Personally, I'm in favor of moving the Roberto Clemente museum into Posvar Hall.

Also worth noting is the ceremony that is held at the wall every year to commemorate the anniversary of Mazeroski's home run, see here. When you get the article up, I'll add some history regarding its use as the University of Pittsburgh's home football field. I know I have some good public domain images from those games. They had great, Glenn Scobey "Pop" Warner coached teams that played there and, at the time, were the second biggest draw at Forbes after the Pirates (the Steelers weren't nearly as popular back then). CrazyPaco (talk) 19:59, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

When I get the article up? There's already a Forbes Field article. It could certainly use some additional facts, though. The Steelers weren't very popular until they finally got good in the early 70s. Most of the time they were NFL doormats (sometimes literally, as when they were known as Card-Pitt, aka "Carpet"). Side note: I have a degree of acrophobia, and I cringe whenever I see that photo of those folks crammed onto that low-railing balcony atop the Cathedral of Learning. I just wonder how many folks have fallen or jumped from that place? Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 20:03, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

I meant when the new version is public. The outside decks aren't generally open to the public anymore. When I was living in Oakland there was one student that crawled out a bathroom window and jumped (I think during finals week in the mid/late 90s). It's not a good place to jump because of all the gothic setbacks and edging, as you could imagine. CrazyPaco (talk) 20:53, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

The article is in the works, I have a very solid start in my sandbox. I am planning to pick up a book written a few years ago primarily about the field at the library tomorrow. I have no info about the Steelers play at the field, but there is a picture that I'll upload from Flickr. I'm sure I'll find something, I'll look at the various Steelers' history books at the library tomorrow. If there's any stuff about the Pitt football team you would like to direct me to I'll do my best to include it, if you wanna write it, you are very welcome to do so once I put the article into the mainspace. Blackngold29 00:43, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

When you go public with your version, I'll help add some stuff. A fantastic resource for anything Pitt related is its digital library Documenting Pitt project. Lots of sports information is available in the old "Owl" student yearbooks with some great photos. Also a lot of old football and basketball media guides are available too. All the text on the pages is searchable as well. It is a great resource on Pitt and Pittsburgh. CrazyPaco (talk) 20:59, 2 September 2008 (UTC) CrazyPaco (talk) 21:00, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

All I'm seeing there is NHL stuff. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 00:51, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Oh my fault wrong sandbox: User:Blackngold29/SteelersSandbox. Blackngold29 00:53, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

OK. The articles CrazyPaco pointed out have at least one gross mistake, i.e. that the wall was built in 1947. As far as I know, it's much older than that, though I'm not totally sure that it's the original wall. In any case, 1947 was the year Greenberg Gardens / Kiner's Korner was constructed. The wall and scoreboard were already there. As to the Steelers (originally also called the Pirates), they switched to Pitt Stadium in 1964, according to the current article. Forbes wasn't badly laid out for football, but Pitt Stadium was obviously a superior football facility. The Steelers from 1933 through 1970 were a team that ranged from mediocre to just plain bad. Ironically, when they hit bottom at 1-13 in 1969, that signaled their renaissance. They got the first draft choice, which was Terry Bradshaw, and then things really started to happen. Their move to Three Rivers coincided perfectly with the magic, as it were. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 01:15, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

From my research so far the stadium underwent multiple alterations in both seating and the field. The outfield was pretty huge, I doubt many stadium's today come close, though by 1970 all fields had been shortend from their original distances. I guess with the field having a left-center distance of 460 feet it was pretty easy to paint a football field in and no alterations (such as Three Rivers Stadium) were necessary. Oddly enough though I've found no articles about the Steelers' play there, I'm sure I'll find out something tomorrow. Blackngold29 01:22, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

The Steelers got very little publicity in the old days, as they were seldom anything close to being contenders. Your best bet is to check your Pittsburgh newspaper microfilm and find out more about it. When the park opened, it had a triple deck from first to third (the upper tier being more like rooftop seating), and permanent bleachers in the left field corner, and a lot of open space in right, apparently anticipating expansion, although it was in the 1920s before they finally did. The park was huge, though. Not only in the outfield, but it was like 110 feet to the backstop. Extra box seats later filled that area in a bit, but it was still fairly deep behind the plate. The small upper tier was expanded in the area behind the plate, supposedly in anticipation of the 1938 pennant that never came. The only place the batters got a bit of a break was in foul ground along first and third. The right field double deck brought that field in a bit closer, but from 300 it swept out pretty quickly to 375, and had a screen, so it was no bargain either. However, Stargell launched many shots over that roof (Ruth was the first, of course). The wall in front of the right field seats had these little arches in it, that had no architectural connection with anything else there that I know of. (If you really want to see an architectural hodge-podge, go to Wrigley Field or Fenway Park sometime). Left field was 365-406-457. The Greenberg/Kiner fence brought left field in to 335-376 for a few years. The batting cage was in that 457 corner in deep left center, in front of the flagpole. I remember a Cubs game there where the light-hitting shortstop Don Kessinger smacked one that got by Matty Alou, who had to chase it all the way to that corner, and Kessinger circled the bases easily for a four-bagger. That kind of thing is part of the reason there was never a no-hitter there. Apologies if you've heard this stuff before. :) Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 01:37, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

I know more Steelers history than Pirates, and though the Steelers are definatley the most popular team in the "football-town" of Pittsburgh both teams have the same number of championships. It is oft forgot that the Steelers were the laughing stock of the league for about 40 years (currently the Pirates are seemingly trying to top that though). I guess they would've had a few playoff games and winning seasons at Forbes, but not many. I really enjoyed reading the article from the Pittsburgh Press about the first Bucs game, their writing back then is cool to see (2:30 o'clock). I've never looked through the microfilm at my library, perhaps I should try it sometime. The two Pittsburgh papers have nearly every article that they've written since around 1995, online, which has been a great resource for a lot of stuff I've done. Blackngold29 01:58, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

If you've got the time and patience, reading old microfilm is really enlightening, not just for facts but for a window into the past. Newspapers reflect how a city saw itself from day to day. And you might be able to answer definitively the "Alleghenys" vs. "Alleghenies" and "Allegheny" vs. "Pittsburg(h)" questions. The 1880s are also an easier read, as the papers had fewer pages and there were fewer games in the season. The Pirates are a team that has had great glory and great disappointment. They were strong through most of my earlier memory, when they were tagged "The Pittsburgh Lumber Company". Who would have guessed that when journeyman Francisco Cabrera drove in those runs for the Braves in 1992 to break the Pirates' hearts (again), that that would be about it for the Pirates for at least the next decade and a half? Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 02:27, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

You may have seen the writeup at Ballparks.com. [4] The first photo is a nice one, showing how the main part of it looked when it was new. Farther down, there's an aerial photo from before the right field stands were built. It's too bad it's such a small photo. It would be nice to find the original. But check out that ridiculously long distance behind the plate. A runner could score from second base easily on a passed ball, and I've heard tales that some runners actually scored from first. Yikes. If you look past the outfield fence, you can see how quickly the terrain drops off. They made quite an effort to either find flat ground and/or level it off. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 01:51, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Just because they're interesting, here are some photos of Pitt playing at Forbes Field...[5] and [6]. I know there are a couple others like that floating around, but there are also many game photos in the Owl yearbooks noted above. CrazyPaco (talk) 21:19, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

It's interesting how many football pictures are out there, and I can't seem to find many of the Bucs playing there. I read today that the 1910 Pitt Panthers didn't give up a single point, that's pretty impressive. I got that book at the library and it is excellent at first look-over. It has quite a bit there, so it'll take a bit to read it; but I think I'll be able to use it to greatly expand the article. Blackngold29 21:43, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Oddly enough, Pitt doesn't claim a National Championship for 1910, although almost every other organization credits them for one...the reverse could be said of 1934 so it all evens out. CrazyPaco (talk) 23:47, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Good photos. It's funny how they didn't quite align the field with one of the base lines, which would be a typical thing to do. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 00:45, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

1967 Pittsburgh Steelers

The Pittsburgh Steelers 1967 season's Times and weather are now updated.

HairyPerry 13:14, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Jim/James

Go out, purchase the disasterpeices DVD, remove either disc from the tray and read the artwork behind the discs. Every member of Slipknot is names correctly besides Jim Root. The DVD names him as James. This is not trivia, it is a known fact. Someone who is new to Slipknot might be wondering about such a thing and it should be mentioned. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.114.124.161 (talk) 03:01, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Hey

Lol, here's something I just noticed and thought it was kind of funny/weird... List of Slayer band members has been rearranged in the same style as the Slipknot one we did. I just found it cool that we've kind of used WP:Slayer for a lot of examples on how to create articles and stuff and now they're doing the same from an article we created. It's cool to see the ripple effect of the stuff you do on Wikipedia. Anyway man I'm gonna be busy today and I might be able to get on-line tonight so if you wanna start of the music and lyrics thing for AHIG start over at User:Rezter/Sandbox2. I will definitely be able to help tomorrow, can't be sure about tonight though. Just start something if you can... and we'll have it done tomorrow and we can start on the reception section afterwards. REZTER ^TALK ø 15:03, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

What are we gonna do with this music and lyrics section? Are we gonna do like a paragraph for each track or what? because I think that'd be a bit excessive and may cause problems if we during a FAC. I'm not sure what would be best. REZTER ^TALK ø 14:27, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Yeah we could certainly mention each track individually but I don't want like..."The album opens with ".execute." which is samples which elads in to...next is Gematria...." you know?We should do like "All Hope Is Gone like it's predecessor Vol. 3 included some more traditional song structures and on tracks like "Snuff" they even featured acoustic guitars." or whatever... you know.. then mention the songs. We could mention all songs like that. i don't want like a commentary of how the album plays out, liek track by track, if that makes sense? We could do maybe two paragraphs on the music and one on the lyrics. REZTER ^TALK ø 15:23, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

OK I'll start something now. =] Yeah boyo... first collab in a while. REZTER ^TALK ø 15:41, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Hey I don't know if you realise but I submitted List of Slipknot awards for WP:DYK and it was on the front page on the 16th, lol... check this out. [7] We average out at about 120-150 hits per day on that article but on the day it was on the front page we hit 4,200 hahah... I jsut thought it was incredible. So yeah, next timw you create or overhaul an article consider submitting it for the WP:DYK thing. Oh and that's also a FLC right now... and erm yeah I'm going to be moving on Saturday and I doubt it will be completed by then so if you could, coudl you make sure any comments that are made are dealt with because I won't have a PC when I move. However I may still be able to edit liek say if I use PCs in unviersity or go to an internet cafe or something.... just so you know. Oh and I'm sorry we never really got around to doing the AHIG things but I've been really really busy organising things for me going to university. REZTER ^TALK ø 01:49, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Yeah you can use my sandbox for whatever man. But like I said I may be able to continue editting... almost daily, but I'll get back to you on that. We may aswell knock up a newsletter, there's been a tonne of shit since the last one. REZTER ^TALK ø 02:10, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Stadiums

Great job on the stadium articles. Pitt actually used Recreation, Exposition, Forbes, Pitt Stadium, Three Rivers (1 year and select games other years), and Heinz...so they've had home fields at every stadium except PNC! There are a lot of great resources on Pitt Stadium if you ever get around to contributing to it...the book by Sam Scuillo, Jr, Pitt Stadium Memories, would be the definitive resource for that article. CrazyPaco (talk) 05:51, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Steelers at Forbes Field vs. Pitt Stadium

The current Forbes Field article says 1962 was the Steelers last year at Forbes. However, according to the article 1963 Pittsburgh Steelers season, the home games were split between Forbes and Pitt. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 04:18, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

And it occurs to me what drove them to move to Pitt. I don't know if they were drawing capacity crowds at Forbes or not, but it was in the 1960s that the NFL decided to require its teams to play in stadiums of 50,000 or more. Pitt met that standard, and Forbes was nowhere close. That's the reason the Bears had to abandon Wrigley Field eventually. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 04:50, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

According to the Forbes Field book cited in the article the Steelers last game at Forbes Field was on December 12, 1962. I could've sworn I put that in the aritle, I'll have to do that. I've contatcted User:Fruminous to see if he's got anything, as he's done most of the Steelers season pages. Blackngold29 14:34, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

My personal research, years ago, from surveying newspapers, indicated 1963. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 15:24, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

It could be that they officially moved to Pitt in 1963, but had to play some games at Forbes due to scheduling conflicts. Maybe your Steelers pages expert will have an answer - or, at least, a good source for the home field information. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 15:57, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, hopefully he'll have something. I could take a look at the Steelers history books at the library. It's amazing how much more people write about baseball parks than football stadiums. Blackngold29 16:06, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

There must be an NFL source for this info - maybe an NFL equivalent to Retrosheet. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 16:24, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Hey BlackNGold - Email me using the link on my user page and I'll email you PDFs of the '62 and '63 seasons. I'm pretty sure that the way Bugs has it is correct. They started playing games at Pitt on-and-off in '63 to accommodate larger crowds, then moved there permanently in '64. Fruminous (talk) 02:55, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

According to this Google Books reference [8] by a Pittsburgh writer named Ed Bouchette, the Steelers split their home games between Forbes and Pitt during 1958-1963. I also read someplace that Pitt bought the Forbes Field property in 1958. That is likely not a coincidence. The Steelers probably worked out a deal with the university once the school had acquired Forbes, because in effect the Steelers were then leasing from Pitt, not from the Pirates any more. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 23:32, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

This group of former cheerleaders seems pretty certain that they performed at Forbes in 1963. [9] Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 02:59, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Here are the linescores for the 1958-1964 Seasons:

• http://www.profootballresearchers.org/Linescores/1958.pdf
• http://www.profootballresearchers.org/Linescores/1959.pdf
• http://www.profootballresearchers.org/Linescores/1960.pdf
• http://www.profootballresearchers.org/Linescores/1961.pdf
• http://www.profootballresearchers.org/Linescores/1962.pdf
• http://www.profootballresearchers.org/Linescores/1963.pdf
• http://www.profootballresearchers.org/Linescores/1964.pdf

Looking at the 1963 season appears to confirm Bugs's analysis. Marquee opponents (of the time) such as the Giants, Redskins, and Browns were played in Pitt Stadium, while lesser opponents were faced at Forbes Field.

Fruminous (talk) 12:33, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

So it would seem the last game was Sunday, December 1, 1963. I'm not opposed to change it, I think we've got enough evidence, but I find it odd that the author says "marked the last time the Steelers would play at Forbes Field" when it's clearly an incorrect statement. He's got citations throughout, but not on that sentence. I guess it just goes to show that even with citations WP isn't always right. Blackngold29 12:46, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

And that the first game at Pitt was indeed 1958, the year the University acquired Forbes Field. So it looks like there is some work to do on both Forbes and Pitt - and on the Steelers' season pages as well, since 1958 shows all Forbes Field, for example. And the subtlety about which stadium they used depending on the crowd size could arguably be called "analysis", but it's not too much of a stretch. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 13:32, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

There's another subtlety about the 1963 season - it finished in the wake of the national tragedy of the JFK assassination and interest in sports was tempered for awhile. The NFL played their games on the 24th despite there being no TV coverage, and to criticism (the AFL canceled their games that weekend). That game of the 1st was just a week later, obviously. I remember that year, for that horrible event of course, and also for the Bears winning their last "traditional" NFL championship game before expansion, more than two divisions, and the merger with the AFC came along as the 60s progressed. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 13:36, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

I revised the two stadium articles. However, I'm not sure how to cite them properly. Those PDF's seem to be pages from a book called The Football Encyclopedia. That would seem to be the appropriate citation for that information. What's lacking is the author, publisher and the year(s). Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 14:20, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Fire, etc.

Now that I have access to the books again, Gershman does indeed state on p.92 of Diamonds that two fires consumed Forbes Field in 1970 and 1971. I've never seen that anywhere else, which doesn't mean it's untrue, but I wonder about it. There's no mention of it in Ritter's Old Ballparks article on Forbes, but that book does mention that the modern brick wall was constructed after 1945, so there could be something to that other story. Meanwhile, in Diamonds on p.85 it says that Shibe Park was the first solely steel-and-concrete ballpark, thus beating Forbes by a few weeks. Diamonds also mentions the fire at Shibe in 1971 (which I remember well), complete with picture (p.210) and reiteration of Shibe being the first steel-and-concrete ballpark. The Forbes fire was stated as Christmas Eve of 1970, so that should be pretty easy to confirm or refute. The Ritter book, p.71, has a picture of demolition going on in (fittingly) 1971. I can't really tell from the photo if it's normal demolition or "cleanup" after a fire - or both. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 00:18, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

The early version of Phil Lowry's Green Cathedrals, a SABR book from 1986, says on p.73 that two fires "damaged" the park, on Dec. 24, 1970, and July 17, 1971; and that demolition began on July 28, 1971. I think Lowry once lived in Pittsburgh, so he would probably know, and I would guess that Gershman got his info from the Lowry book. So it has credibility, but it would be nice to confirm it independently. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 00:22, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, it might be wording technicalities, but it would appear Fobes Field was indeed the first fully steel and concrete National League stadium, as the Philly Athletics, now Oakland were the tennats at Shibe Park until 1954 and they played in the American League. Blackngold29 12:51, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

That's a fair statement. People forget that Sportsman's Park opened their own steel-and-concrete structure that year. However, they simply rotated the field 90 degrees and retained their old wooden grandstand for a number of years, as left field bleachers, before demolishing and rebuilding those bleachers in concrete. The point of the steel and concrete was two pronged. One aspect was safety and security, as wood was always subject to devastating fires. Another was the realization that major league baseball had developed a permanence about it, and a permanent structure was a reasonable investment. The Pirates and A's opened their grand new structures in 1909 and won the 1909 and 1910-1911 World Series respectively. At that point, the wooden ballpark, at least at the major league level, was doomed. By 1920 all of the mostly-wood ballparks were either replaced or abandoned. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 13:27, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Philly records

Thanks for your comments! I actually put that into an FLC before realizing that due to my current job change, I'm a little short on time at the moment. The nom's been suspended at the moment, but I hope to have some more time once I settle into my new living situation, whatever that may be. Regardless, I would really appreciate your help; improving Citizens Bank Park is a future goal of mine, but I'm much better as a list-maker than I am as an article writer (though I did have to rewrite most of Philadelphia Phillies when I broke out the history article). Any and all assistance would be greatly appreciated! KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 16:32, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Three Rivers Stadium

A lot of the stuff I found was actually in one of the sources I used to add info to the article, Storied Stadiums--like the parts about the Pirates wanting a bigger place to play, and the sight lines being more favorable to football than baseball.

Oh, and I just noticed one MAJOR error--Forbes Field was actually the oldest venue in the National League at the time. Wrigley Field was built five years after Forbes, in 1914. Blueboy96 19:27, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

I think that was a carryover from the Forbes article that was corrected there but was missed on the Three Rivers article. I think it was the Steelers website that had made a major gaffe and stated that Wrigley was older than Forbes. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 01:52, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

It was that way in the Bucs '95 yearbook, I'm surprised they would screw that up. I don't know what the Steelers site says. Blackngold29 01:54, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

I knew you would know. :) Hard to figure about that '95 yearbook. I'm guessing somebody had the idea the Cubs were playing in Wrigley in 1908 when they last won the Series. Not quite. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 02:01, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

September Slipknot newsletter

The Slipknot WikiProject Newsletter Issue V - September 22, 2008 If you would like to help out with future newsletters, please contact the Outreach Department.

"We'll never be broken, we won't be denied, our war is the pressure we need to unite 'Til we die" News and announcements Welcome to the fifth Slipknot WikiProject Newsletter, dated Monday, September 22, 2008. Vol. 3: (The Subliminal Verses) is the project's first Featured Article List of Slipknot band members is a Featured List Disasterpieces, Voliminal: Inside the Nine and All Hope Is Gone are all Good Articles 9.0: Live is currently a Featured Article Candidate List of Slipknot awards was featured on the WP:Main Page as part of WP:DYK and is currently a Featured List Candidate The project also has three new articles; Tattered and Torn, Outside The Nine and List of Slipknot awards

From the editors We apologize about forgetting to do a newsletter last month, but the last two months have been really good for the project. We got our first FA, another FL, a further three GAs, plus a FLC and FAC in process. All Hope Is Gone is currently the AoF with the intention of becoming a featured article, so help out were possible. (sic) news Slipknot are currently taking a break from touring due to Joey Jordison breaking his ankle, it is rumoured that they have been shooting a music video for their next single "Dead Memories", which will feature Corey Taylor in some kind of mud pit/grave. Slipknot will return to touring in October and will be touring Asia, Europe and Australia until December, reportedly returning for an arena tour of the US next year.

Deleted Statues

I left you a message at your commons talk page: [10].--TheZachMorrisExperience (talk) 04:30, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Newsletter

Whenever it is ready, do you want me to go around and deliver it to everyone?   jj137 (talk) 19:36, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Sounds good to me; I can open an RFBA for JJBot to do this. :) Any idea when it will be ready for delivery?   jj137 (talk) 22:18, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

(ec) That also sounds like a good idea- it's sometimes hard to tell if someone is even still here or not. I'll go ahead and get A-M.   jj137 (talk) 23:44, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Back to ya!

		The Running Man Barnstar
		For constant edits, improvements, and an open eye: a barnstar for the first of it's kind. GrszX 23:43, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

October Baseball WikiProject Newsletter

The Baseball WikiProject Newsletter Issue III – October 2008

"If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving a baby's life... she'll save the baby without even considering how many men are on base!" — Stephen King (The Dark Tower) News and announcements The Baseball Project promoted 13 lists to Featured status in August and 8 more in September. Amazing job! A combined eleven articles were promoted to Good Article status in August and September. Featured content In September, WikiProject Baseball has had the following articles promoted to: Featured Article status: Nashville Sounds Featured List status: List of New York Mets Opening Day starting pitchers, List of Colorado Rockies Opening Day starting pitchers, List of Florida Marlins Opening Day starting pitchers, Nashville Sounds seasons, List of Tampa Bay Rays Opening Day starting pitchers, List of Seattle Mariners Opening Day starting pitchers, List of Boston Red Sox Opening Day starting pitchers, List of Arizona Diamondbacks Opening Day starting pitchers, New York Yankees seasons Good Articles of August and September: All the Way (Eddie Vedder song), Cy Young, Dan Brouthers, Harmon Killebrew, Rickey Henderson, Billy Pierce, Kinston Indians, Three Rivers Stadium, Bill Lange, Calgary Cannons, Hugh Daily, Homer at the Bat This month's newsletter was designed and written by Wizardman, jj137, and Blackngold29. If you would like to contribute to future newsletters, please contact the Baseball WP outreach dept.

News from the diamond The 2008 opening round playoff matchups with be: Boston Red Sox vs. Los Angeles Angels Milwaukee Brewers vs. Philadelphia Phillies Los Angeles Dodgers vs. Chicago Cubs Chicago White Sox vs. Tampa Bay Rays Help to keep the articles of the postseason updated From the Editors We apologize for not sending out our August newsletter, we have tried to cover some events of the month in this issue. The playoffs have started! The Dodgers and Phillies have won their respective Division Series and will face off in the NL Championship Series. Both series in the American League have yet to be finished. Show your support for your favorite teams by keeping up with their season pages!

Hey, why not. :) --  jj137 (talk) 23:52, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Hey remember me?

Hey I just started thinking about the WP: Steelers project, I'm done with my main project so I want to what ever I can on this one, what needs to be done? And as all way's Go Steeler's. SteelersFan94 00:27, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

PNC Park FAC

Too bad about the Clemente Statue being removed. Personally, I think it is bogus, but that's the way it goes. What do you think about Image:RobertoClementeBridgePittsburgh.JPG instead of the one in there now? I like it better because it has less dead space, but I'll leave that decision up to you.--HoboJones (talk) 20:26, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Here's a picture of PNC that might be good: Image:PNCParkfromDowntown.jpg. I'll leave it to you to place it, since I don't want to mess with the flow of the article.--HoboJones (talk) 03:28, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Hey I didnt realize PNC was at FAR. Congrats on the promotion. Grsz^X 13:44, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

9.0: Live

Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/9.0: Live Gary King (talk) 20:44, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Checked. I left a comment there. Thank you. --Efe (talk) 11:09, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Renominated Gary King (talk) 20:42, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

I tried looking for more articles on LexisNexis but couldn't find much. I hope you have better luck. Gary King (talk) 04:30, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Beijing National Stadium

Great job on the article! It is far better than how it was a few days ago. If you have time, could you have a look at Beijing National Aquatics Center. These fantastic venues could make awesome articles. 76.69.60.139 (talk) 03:26, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Penguins roster

What happened to the small box roster? Grsz^talk 02:44, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

I updated the roster, adding Paul Bissonnette, John Curry (ice hockey), Bill Thomas (ice hockey), and Alex Goligoski. The NHL made an exception to allow a 24-man roster for the overseas trip and this will be the opening day roster. Grsz^talk 21:40, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Hey I'm confused as to who the A's are. Penguins official roster says Sydor with no Malkin or Orpik, making me think it just wasn't updated. I'm going to update accordingly, unless something else comes up. Grsz^X 21:20, 5 October 2008 (UTC)