Bakermannn
Welcome! edit
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Information edit
Hello!
I am sending this so to inform you I have added my input on the Messi and Iniesta subject you created in the talk page of the list-article of footballers with the most official appearances.
Kind regards!
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 12:57, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
A small note about Messi's numbers (just so you know) edit
Hello! Regarding Messi's addition on the list with the most official appearances, the numbers are exactly as you say, i.e. 997 games and 782 goals (and by team the ones you also have), based on the known databases, but I would like to add that RSSSF's Prolific Scorers Data includes 2 more goals and 2 more matches, though they take into account (based on the description of their list) the All-Star games (which are considered as official by many FAs), games with continental selections (in his case would be with South America or Americas selection) or World XI/Rest of the World (their matches against national teams or other continental selections or World XI are considered as official even by FIFA) and of course they take into account also the cancelled games. That said, I can trace his two more goals are coming from this match (K-League All-Star Game), so also the 1 of the 2 more games. The other game I cannot trace, but I believe it most likely is a cancelled official game, because in the last 10 years I mainly watch FIFA XI, South America XI, et c. matches, and I don't remember Messi in them, which is logical since in the last 10 years or more they prefer to have a team with mainly recently retired players than currently active ones. Anyway, while I understand the reasoning behind RSSSF's inclusion of that match, if Korean FA considers it official, since Barcelona doesn't, and as that has the most importance (priority for his stats with Barcelona), we shouldn't include it on the list with the most official appearances. Unfortunately, while RSSSF's prolific scorers list has detailed stats on many of the players, they don't have for Messi, so to be able to find-figure out where that other match comes from... By they way, you can see here the total numbers of Messi and they even have top 10 "RSSSF's" prolific scorers list (scroll down) there, but without including those 2 more matches (and the +2 goals). I am telling you this because I think it's useful information to know, and also so possible confusion to be avoided. Kind regards! Lorry Gundersen (talk) 18:12, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
Sorry. Found another game I had totally forgotten, which seems more likely to be his +2 goals from there. It was something called Copa Mundo Maya 2012 and took place on 16/06/2012 (Estrellas de America vs Estrellas de México 5-3). Lorry Gundersen (talk) 19:20, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
Neville Southall edit
Hello!
While you can see here one more international cap (so the tally could be made 997 instead of 996), probably that's a later cancelled game by the way, since his matches with the national team in details (see RSSSF here, sporting-heroes.net here and NFT here) are not mentioning anything about that, I highly doubt he ever played for a youth national team of Wales. If he did, I am pretty sure in the 21st century it wouldn't be hard to be traced. Even for very old players (for instance, Hungarians and Austrians in the 20s-40s, and even for older ones, i.e. such as the UK players in the 19th century, or Argentinean and Uruguayan ones from the 19th century – I am referring to them because the football of Uruguay and Argentina, introduced by Britishmen, dates very back), the stats in national teams can be traced digitally or are known by other media. The problems do appear in club numbers, especially when you have to deal with numbers from defunct clubs, from defunct FAs (from countries that don't exist anymore), et c. Here, where you can again see 93 matches with Wales senior instead of 92, mentions "Welsh International: Full and U-21" in the description, which could mean/could be interpreted he had been a part of the U-21 national team, but it gives no other information: that itself isn't enough to claim he made an appearance for the U-21 national team, but only that he may had been in one or more call-ups/selections of the Wales U-21. Also, famous DBs (such as WorldFootball.net and playmakerStats), which cover extensively much of his career, do not have anything about youth Wales national teams. Additionally, even though here says he is one of the few players that can boast of having over 1,000 caps, it must include friendlies/totall numbers, as the other players mentioned along don't appear to have 1,000 official matches, but they do if friendlies are included. Now, to sum up, while he may have been part of a U-21 Wales, I am certain he didn't play in any of their matches, because of information lacking to claim otherwise. Finally, when it comes to numbers with national teams, you could always email the according FA for extra confirmation. In this case, the email is info@faw.co.uk (found from the respective FA's website). They should be able to provide international stats, the stats for youth Wales national teams.
Kind regards!
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 10:28, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
Hello again!
While I don't believe Neville Southall to have played other matches for Wales (or at least ones that are recorded), including national teams of the lowest ages (i.e., even Welsh Schoolboys, the U16 and U15 national teams), I do believe he may have other official senior matches played in clubs that are missing from those 996, which could raise the 996 to 1,000 or more... if you see the infobox on his bio article (direct link here), where his stats are composed by ENFA's data, you will find out he had played for three Welsh clubs prior to playing to English clubs, and on ENFA, like the reserves-B teams matches, don't have data about the Welsh competitions or the lower English leagues (where most Welsh clubs play, if they don't play in a Welsh league), so I believe I may find some matches there (either in the lower English league or the Welsh league those clubs were playing at the time and/or in Welsh cups, as, even though he was youth in those clubs, it's very possible to have been tested on a cup match or even a league match). In addition, apart from his beginning years, it's also very possible that he has matches missing from his ending years, because he played in 6 clubs at the end, of which there is only the league appearances total of only one of them in the infobox (direct link for his SoccerBase profile here, where the missing data could indicate possible missing matches – if it was confirmed he didn't play matches, the values would have been zeros, like them for Winsford Utd). I will re-look his case later, whenever I will have time, but, having those described before in mind, if you wish to search for more matches he played, I think you have some directions what to look for.
Kind regards,
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 18:22, 28 November 2021 (UTC)
Hello!
Neville Southall has definitely played in more than 4 matches for Winsford United (he has 996 matches since Bury and after), as he had helped them win the cup and was also voted player of the season (there are many references to corroborate this info), and would be weird to have a player of the season without at least a 2-digit number of official appearances, but the point is if we can find references and good references for at least 4 matches, so to be able to add him on the list, which must be done separately (even from sites of opponent clubs, if those exist), as there doesn't seem to be an active site for that club.
By the way, you can see here in "History" (fifth tab from the left) 1 match (the final of the 1980 Cheshire Senior Cup), in the description of their history, so it's actually 3 more games needed.
Also, some opponents in the season he played can be seen here, if it helps to trace him on matches against them, in case there are references for them, because we are talking, unfortunately, about a very low category here...
P.S. On an article from ToffeeWeb, which is an Everton-related site, about him (direct link here), I see in one of the comments below the article the following:
"I saw Neville play for Winsford against Chorley in March 1980. Winsford at the time were 2nd in the Cheshire League, Chorley third. Neville had missed just one in 42 games that season. From memory, he let in four that day, so I didn't exactly have him marked for a future Goodison legend. I still have the programme, and have just noticed it was 37 years ago yesterday! It was also George Rooney's first game in charge, according to the programme notes."
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 14:49, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
By the way, you can see league opponents in 1979–80 Cheshire County Football League and 1980–81 Cheshire County Football League, if you wish to search for references for 3 more matches he played... by experience, I believe there may be good support for at least 3 matches, because Winsford United is an English club, not Scottish or Welsh, so I believe somewhere there will be data for that low league, or separately 3 matches...
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 15:01, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
Iniesta edit
Hello!
I thought it would be useful information to add a note (only on a note, not to be counted in the total, only as trivia for the player) on Iniesta in the list with the most official appearances that he also played 2 matches for Catalonia national team, but there is no source for that, and I can only find proof of having played once in 2004: see here and here (in Spanish), and in a site about Barcelona players you can find only the info "Player of the Catalan national team", so I was thinking if perhaps you can find source(s) to justify having played two matches for Catalunya? By the way, even in WP (which is highly unreliable as a user-generated site) there is chaos about stats with Catalonia: not only many players (including players like Di Stéfano, Johan Cruyff, Hristo Stoichkov, et c., and even Pepe Reina) who seem to have played with Catalonia are missing such info from the infobox, but many from the ones who do have don't also include sources to back those numbers (like in the case of Iniesta).
On another topic, I added in the list his 5 matches for Catalunya Cup (there was already a ref for this), which hadn't previously been included, since that's not only an official competition (his matches there were official), but also a prestigious one, even though it's only regional. If you disagree with this addition, please tell me why...
Cheers! Lorry Gundersen (talk) 10:26, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
Hello again! I am informing that I also changed his matches with Barcelona B from 54 to 49, based on the sources in existence (source actually, i.e. the only one that includes his numbers with Barcelona B), so the total went back again to 1,003. That said, it's possible the 5 matches for Catalunya Cup to have been played with Barcelona B instead of Barcelona (A) or counted there in the tally. Anyway, this is minor regarding the sum. Besides, in lack of other sources that can claim those were with Barcelona B, we have to attribute them to the A team, based on the current refs. Kind regards! Lorry Gundersen (talk) 12:35, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
Hello! I wanted to add this (2 matches with Catalunya) only as an extra information in a note, not in the total sum, and, since it says he played twice in WP, I was looking for proof he played twice, but I am only finding sources he played once... anyway, that's minor (it's only a note that can be omitted after all, or we could put he only played once, in case we cannot find trace for more appearances), but there is another issue, more important, which is there is(are) no source(s) to justify his stats with Spain U15, U16 and U17, and I am currently looking for them... if you have ones handy, already know ones, please add them... Kind regards! Lorry Gundersen (talk) 14:26, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
Hello again! I am currently adding on the list info about matches with "unofficial" (in quotes because those sometimes are considered as official ones) selections-teams (like league selections or Catalunya "national" team, et c.), only as trivia/additional notes though, not to be counted in the total, and soon I will add for the Catalonia "national" team (Xavi, Iniesta – if I cannot find info Iniesta played twice for them, I will make a note that he additionally played for Catalonia "national" team, without naming the times, it's trivia information after all), just so we have a greater "coverage"/the whole image... if you have any objections to this, please tell me. Regards! Lorry Gundersen (talk) 10:48, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
Xavi edit
Hello!
You are right about the extra 7 matches with Al Sadd... sorry, forgot to check the club career statistics and its sources... I will correct it on the list, and add a link/hyperlink in the edit reason linking to the discussion where you explain why the total is 117.
Regarding the extra topic:
- Copa Catalunya (since 1989–90 season) and Supercopa Catalunya are definitely considered official by FIFA/IFFHS and RSSSF, and I don't know any FA/country that doesn't consider their matches (of course talking since 1989–90 season in the case of Copa Catalunya) as official. Regarding FIFA/IFFHS, see this (it's in Spanish). However, worth noting here once more that the matches with a "national" team of Catalunya are something totally different, as while Catalunya exists as an area within Spain, it does not exist as a separate nation, and this is why the matches of a national Catalunya team are not recognized by FIFA. Catalunya Cup and later Catalunia Supercup not only are recognized, but they are very prestigious among fans around the world.
- Now, even though they are official, the level of the matches in them many times is "snobbed" by football "journalism", to the point that sometimes there are confusions: for instance, see this (in Spanish), which is about Messi's new contract with Barcelona where it says about bonus gains based on the amount of matches played, excluding Copa Catalunya (not saying those are not official), and the same article/news cover in English is this, where it says at the end "Messi accepted, but in the event that Catalonia became independent, he would become a free agent. In addition, the Copa Catalunya matches were not considered official matches and therefore did not count.", which can be misunderstood easily, but it means "were not considered official matches, even though they are"...
- Regarding Messi's official matches with Barcelona, it's 778. Here it's worth noting he never played any match either in Copa Catalunya or Supercopa Catalunya (players.FCBarcelona profile, where you won't see any match listed even though as part of Barcelona team he is credited with the trophies, and you can also see here "Con el FC Barcelona también ha sido campeón de la Copa Catalunya (2004-05, 2006-07, 2012-13 y 2013-14) y de la Supercopa de Catalunya (2014-15), aunque nunca ha tomado parte en estas dos competiciones."), and it is right Xavi has 779.
- I am pretty sure the record of Messi breaking Xavi's numbers came from "journalists", not from statisticians, where, wrongly, attribute those 12 matches of Xavi as friendly (?!), for example here. Unfortunately, journalism in football has always been problematic and mainly "serving fans" for profit, while ignoring stats. This is why, for instance, Gerd Müller was made a record holder by journalists for having scored the most goals in a year (while Chitalu was ignored), and later Messi was again attributed with breaking that record (Chitalu again ignored), again by "journalists". This "record" wasn't declined by Barcelona and was celebrated, even by Xavi (based on the news), but I can't find a statistical source claiming the matches in Catalunya Cup (at the times Xavi played) and Catalunya Supercup were not official, only the "news" to support Messi's "record". That said, I do understand this may sound weird, taken into account the resounding of that record in the news, but, unfortunately, such things happen all the time (unfortunately, much of the football journalism is unreliable). By the way, for information only, Messi did play in Copa Catalunya (in the Copa Catalunya Juvenil actually) in cadete/youth level, but we don't include such numbers (Under-X numbers in club level). Source here.
Kind regards!
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 08:52, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
Hello again! I was looking for similar lists on the web and I have found these three: one (Xavi has 1143 matches, this is the closest to the 1148 of the list and pretty sure the closest to reality since it's coming from a Spaniard – this list claims the data to be coming from FIFA, but they can't be linked), two (Xavi has 1135 matches) and three (Xavi has 1133 matches), and, since the criteria of what matches/from which competitions count and what not aren't clear in them, it's understandable we can see deviation in the appearances number of the players, but all have one thing in common, and that is that Xavi is in all of them above Roberto Carlos (and also the top outfield player), which was never the case in WP, so I am positive the list now is closer to reality. Also, while WP is not considered reliable, we do include sources directly or indirectly (from footballers' biography articles) and I consider the WP's most appearances list accurate enough. Cheers! Lorry Gundersen (talk) 09:46, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
Hello! In addition to what was previously said, I would also like to add, so to be clear, that the matches with Copa Catalunya, apart from being official, don't differ at all from the matches in state cups and state leagues in Brazil, which we include for the Brazilian players in the list, and since regional level and its matches are included, it is also fair Copa Catalunya to be included. In addition, complementary and necessary for their inclusion is their traceability, i.e. that we have a database mentioning the Copa Catalunya (and Supercopa Catalunya) matches for all players. That said, coming back to the "national" team of Catalonia case, if there is a site-database that lists all Catalonia "national" team matches (including players), I wouldn't mind them being included even in the counts of the players (next to a note saying these matches are not recognized by FIFA and UEFA), since we are talking about a WP (an encyclopedia) list, and not a FIFA list, but, unfortunately, there isn't one and these matches don't seem to have been covered even in the news, the majority of them, in fact their "cover" in WP is also a chaos... Also, while the level of the matches is not in question, for the people who doubt about the level, I must say that the matches with B teams (e.g. 3rd league matches with Barcelona B) included in the list are of much lower level than those in Copa and Supercopa Catalunya, which is also many times the case for state league and state cup matches for the Brazilian players, having to play, e.g., with Serie D opponents in the state league. Cheers! Lorry Gundersen (talk) 08:17, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
Dani Alves edit
Hello! Yes, you are right... First, also the other two cup matches Sevilla played that season do not name him playing (besoccer source vs Real Jaén and source vs CD Linares). Now, the source for 251 matches is this (already in his refs in the list), where it says he made his debut in the cup against Numancia in the 2nd leg as a change after 19 minutes in the 2nd half, but besoccer name Dani Bautista as the change instead of him and the only other source I could locate online for that match is this where it only says "Dani", so seems like a mistake-confusion because of the name.... so, for four reasons, first that I doubt it is a mistake in besoccer, as I don't remember him referred to as just Dani, but as Dani Alves in the sources, and second because other sources claim his debut to be some days later of the same month in La Liga (see this article, which is about facts about Dani Alves and mentions all his debuts, saying "Dani Alves made his debut for Sevilla on 23 February 2003 against Espanyol in La Liga."), the third reason is that there are no other sources related to that match, including photos and videos (checked even footballia) so we could figure out if the mistake is on besoccer or the two sources listing that match, and the fourth and final reason is the one you said, which is that playmakerstats while mentions/counts the cup game, it doesn't include other info/details. So, for the reasons mentioned before, I agree we should remove one match with Sevilla. Though, as there is a source with 251 matches and there are sources claiming 250 matches (for example, 250 first-team appearances), we do have another match in question, which has to be located and checked, so for now I am removing 1 and I will check year by year to see where the +1 match is coming from, and then see if I can find proofs of playing: if none are found, it will become 249. Thanks for the explanation. Regards! Lorry Gundersen (talk) 07:56, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
Hello! Regarding the issue whether it's 249 or 250 for Sevilla, IFFHS gave a solution by making a post recently about his official numbers in the top level, and it's 250 (see link here), which in my opinion solves this, so do you also agree about 250? By the way, the numbers in their post agree with the numbers we have on the list, apart from those for Bahia, where they have 32 and the list has 58 (based on the ref here), and there is another ref having him with 54 official ones (see here), but I am sure he definitely has more official matches than 32 for Bahia, either with the 2nd team or regional ones that IFFHS is missing in their post, and of course their post is only about top-level numbers, so I am gonna look about this a bit more. So, to sum up, I consider the issue of 250 or 249 over, as it's not only in most DBs, including footballDatabase, but also coming from IFFHS, and his numbers for Bahia need further searching. Cheers! Lorry Gundersen (talk) 08:59, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
Graham Alexander edit
Hello!
TOPIC 1 – Burnley: The one match not listed, even though counted in the total in SoccerBase, was with the reserve team of Burnley in the Premier Reserve League North group. The U-23 clubs in England are the equivalent ones to B clubs in other countries (e.g. Liverpool U-23, which includes U-23 players and 4 overage ones, is equivalent to Barcelona B, Sporting Lisbon B, et c. in other countries) and they play (anymore) in separate Reserve Leagues and Cups of lower levels (in cups like EFL Trophy). 178 is the correct number. By the way, while transfermarkt (hyperlink here) is not reliable because it's user-based (like WP) and refs from it are better not used, you can see (if you scroll down) that match listed while not being counted in the total there (which is 177).
TOPIC 2 – Scunthorpe: The correct number is 202 matches, not only because it comes from 11v11 (Association of Football Statisticians), which is "strong" (reliable) enough, but also because that's the number also in the English National Football Archive (ENFA). Specifically, Graham Alexander has 2 more matches played in 1991–92 season not included in his Career section in his WP biography article (I don't know in which cup/competition, because they are under a column named "Other", where the League Cup is also included, and the total from that season is 11) and, finally, also because this can be crossed with the time/date he made 1,000 appearances (with 200 instead of 202 he wouldn't have reached 1,000), which is crucial in the count because the stats are seen thoroughly before a 1,000 appearances feat is published in the news. Also, this book mentions 200 appearances as "pro", which doesn't include 2 matches before being a professional: he made his debut in 1991, but he already had played twice before when he was still part of the youth team and hadn't signed a professional contract.
Kind regards!
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 19:31, 11 November 2021 (UTC)
Djalma Santos++ edit
Hello!
TOPIC 1 – While that makes sense in relation to B club teams (on other players) being on separate lines, we cannot add TransferMarkt as a reference (someone will for sure remove it as non-reliable), so I think it's good the way it is, i.e. 178 as total, which is backed both from SoccerBase's total and the local Lancashire news from a football pundit (by Suzanne Geldard). Unfortunately, regarding players who played in UK and all players in general, many numbers they have/had for reserve teams are missing because they are also missing from the football databases (DBs). While SoccerBase includes this in the total, they don't have the match report (lineups, score, et c.), and they have actually only two matches listed in their DB for Burnely U-23 (see here). Like them, that's also the case with other DBs as well, but fortunately they include this in the total. Also, let's not confuse readers and other editors with U-23 club teams when we have the choice to not do it. Lacking info from DBs, the reserve numbers are usually coming from the websites of the clubs when mentioning or having an article about total numbers. Even ENFA does not include info for reserve teams, probably only for matches in major cups, since they include stats for the top 4 leagues only and (thankfully) for all major cups.
On another relative note, it must be said that even U-21 club teams numbers are relative to the list because these are equivalent to C club teams (U-18 and of lower age are youth, U-21 is C, U-23 is B), which are also missing for many players, but the list anyway is "solid" enough in my opinion, taken into acount the availability of the sources online and I could say "strong" enough, i.e. at a state where I deem the players in it to be comparable regards to the official matches played, which is what matters, only minor-unimportant deviations can be spotted.
TOPIC 2 – 174 is coming both from Club Brugge's site and the news, and can be also crossed with the time he was announced with making 1,000 appearances, which are good enough reasons. Also, you can't find (I couldn't find) detailed info: nothing on Lommel's website (some of the searches: here, here and here – only one relative result since the others are retrieved because they include a "Simon") – not actually the Lommel Simons played, but a "continuation" of that club following a merger. Is there a separate database for Belgian football statistics (including lineups and footballers), or even for Dutch football in general so we could also see the matches, lineups, et c.? Probably there is, but I don't know any. Anyway, still, if you have one match missing for Lommel, it probably would have been with their reserve team, since possibly DBs will not include that (will have only 173), since, as said in the previous topic, most lack this info, but totals from teams' website include them. By the way, relating to this is the case with DB's missing stats while having additional numbers in the total sums, like the oGol's "Sem Competição Definida", which could be numbers with reserve teams, which they sum up to the total, but they can't provide detailed info for them. By the way, the list had 171 before I made the change to 174, which I haven't any clue of where it comes from, since this player had zero references.
On another note, as you may have noticed lately, I am recently checking sources and based on ones found make changes – additions, deletions, corrections –, as the list had some major numbers not supported by sources... specifically, 6 players had zero references: Glenn Ferguson, Timmy Simons, Graham Alexander, Callaghan, Lampard and Hutchison, which was my main concern, and on which I added references, and now (next major concern) I am also looking for sources for the U-23, U-21, U-20, et c., national teams, which most were/are unsourced and I am also checking if existing sources are good enough for the numbers the players have: if not they are added if found... for the time being, I could say that players until number 10 (number 10 included) are "kosher" (with sources), soon I will add references on Zanetti (the total stays the same) and on Jennings (the total will change), and later will proceed with the next players. So, in a nutshell, I think until number 10 (soon until number 12) are well-referenced (with the appropriate notes where needed), but, still, as you may have also noticed, as I belong to the humankind, I am prone to mistakes, so please of course feel free to always debate about something you think is not correct/not supported well...
TOPIC 3 – National team: First, 98 appearances are supported both by NFT (link here), which is included in his refs, and RSSSF (see here), which make 98 kosher, and also NFT, which usually includes non-FIFA matches/unofficial by FIFA friendlies, does not include any on his case, which means other-extra matches attributed to him are coming from "obscure" competitions, unofficial friendlies lacking info or vs. "teams" that aren't good enough to be considered even "unofficial friendlies", e.g. there could be matches against a state selection, a city selection, non-footballers selection (e.g. Seleção Futebol Arte et c.), against national teams of lower categories, e.g. Brazil U-23, U-21, et c., which should actually be considered training rather even as unofficial friendlies, matches where 15 changes were made, the coach was the referee, et c., et c., because when the sources speak about a total matches with Brazil include these. This is why regarding his numbers with the national teams, I had added at the end a note in his references that says the number could well be 111 or 114 or even 133 among others, unofficial friendlies included, as an extra info, a note which you probably didn't see, but 98 is definite for the list... the note states that Palmeiras claims 111, CBF claims 114 in their newest – based on the date published – article about his total career and Santos even has 133, but the most common on the web is 111, which is probably because it's coming from Palmeiras' site. What's most common on the web is unimportant. The important is what CBF and Palmeiras claim, regarding a total "total" (even unofficial friendlies included), which, must be said again, is only as an extra trivial note-info, and nothing more. However, I noticed on later articles that CBF claims 113 instead of 114 (see article from 2019 and article from 2021), which means 1 match had been later removed from their total, so I will change the ref to the latest one (article from 2021) and make it 113 by CBF in the note.
TOPIC 3 – Palmeiras: While his matches are listed in Verdazzo, the most significance must be given to Palmeiras' official site rather than to their fans-based size, those 5 extra matches could once again be coming from the reserve team and are in lack of the detailed info to be included in the fans' site, which has only detailed matches, i.e. there is an accepted info in Palmeiras as a base he played in 4 more matches, but there is no proof for details. This number before was 501, which means they recently found info for one more match, and we have to consider their site more significant. Now, it must be said that CBF has 494, not even 497 (ref already in the list), which is the newest one regarding his numbers in clubs. The date is 27/02/2018, and they haven't released anything relating to his numbers with clubs since then (general Google search by site and search including Palmeiras – only the first 4 or 5 pages are relative, because the other results are irrelevant since it appears "Santos" to be a common name in Brazil, and also the name from a famous club), and the list previously had 501 (it became +1 from the same updated source). Also, most likely even CBF will have 497 or 502 next time they release something relevant since usually clubs precede the FA, which gets the info and proof from the clubs, but for now do you agree with leaving the number to 502 and a note that CBF claims to be 494?
If there is something I didn't cover, please tell me...
Cheers!
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 17:26, 13 November 2021 (UTC)
Hello!
The same question had actually bothered me some time ago, but that he has passed 1,000 official matches is included on books, sites and newspapers (with certain reliability, see Indepedent's article here, where you can also, by the way, see why he has 98 international undisputed matches while many times famously regarded also with 100 – apart from 111, 113, 114 and 133 –, and also he is not part of the FIFA Century Club), and in anyway the time Djalma Santos played was actually no distinction between friendly and official matches (for this also Pelé should have been on the list in my opinion, under the condition that "friendly" and "official" didn't differ in 1950s-1970s, and in general not before 1995), but I still believe those numbers in Palmeiras site are about official matches (and that Verdazzo must be missing matches) as, since I see the CBF's article in relation to official matches for Portuguesa (his friendlies there are not included) makes sense the same tactic to have been also followed for his numbers with Palmeiras. For Portuguesa the most famous number is 453, not 434, for instance see here (for Palmeiras here says 491) and here (now Palmeiras here has 498), but probably 19 matches were removed because this is always an ongoing research and are still gathering information so matches are added or removed (there are many old tournaments in question of whether they were official or unofficial), and the same also stands for Palmeiras. Also, you can see here 510 as the total, probably it includes friendlies, where for Palmeiras says 498, which is probably coming from what Palmeiras' site had that time... could it include friendlies? Yes, it is possible, but since CBF and later sites related to Portuguesa have reduced that number from 510 to 434 makes perfectly sense the same criteria to have been used for Palmeiras, i.e. for publishing 494, which is the number they have. In addition, since there is a source of 133 matches for Brazil, seems the same criteria to have been used for the national team's numbers, where 20 matches were removed (19 initially, then 20, because later publications mention 113), so to conclude that the numbers for the national team to be 98 undisputed official, and 15 unofficial friendlies, and the rest 20 are not good enough even to be called "unofficial friendlies". While we have no reason to not give ground truth same criteria have been used for Palmeiras, even if 8 additionally matches (that will make the total 502) could have been in friendlies makes no big difference and even if the number was 95, apart from the fact there was no difference at all with a friendly and official match, but all were competitive back then, and even some times friendlies against top teams were more competive than official ones, we still have to follow what CBF and Palmeiras claim on his numbers with Palmeiras. In conclusion, my only worry here is if it could be –8, not –95 (which also makes no difference at all, at least to me, taken into account when those matches were played – 1950s-1970s), with more chances to be –0, as usually FAs are the one that delay to "update". Additionally, later, when 502 appeared in Palmeiras' site, it was also adopted for publications (see here) and here you can see "more than 500". We keep it 502 so to be consistent and act accordingly to the next updates, especially from CBF... well, whenever they will publish something relative...
On another topic, I wish to cross-check something with you about Fábio, but I will do so on another section so to keep it "neat".
Kind regards!
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 13:45, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
Hello!
At that time I thought Verdazzo didn't cover his whole career in Palmeiras and I was eager to accept the total the site of Palmeiras had, but I saw they have records of matches since 1915, and I counted at least 70 friendly matches (including friendly tournaments, i.e. matches that don't have "amistoso" but the tournament name) before stopping counting for Djalma Santos (direct link for Verdazzo here), and I have reconsidered, I think we should remove him from the list. Do you agree?
Best regards,
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 14:17, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
Hello!
I am informing that I decided to remove him from the list: if there are any valid objections, we will reconsider and revert...
Regards,
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 15:52, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
Fábio and Zanetti edit
Hello!
I have come lately to the conclusion that oGol (and of course also its mirror sites like PlayMakerStats) are including official matches played with B/U23 teams, but they don't have separate slots for them and attribute those numbers to the A team instead, while FootballDatabase does have separate slots for them, but they don't have the numbers/stats. Now, if you see Fábio on PlayMakerStats he has 3 more matches with Cruzeiro between 1999 and 2000, where those have a tick sign on the left, which means those were confirmed, and if you go to his FootballDatabase profile you will see Cruzeiro B in 1999 and 2000. Also, I must add that oGol should be preferred over Cruzeiropedia, which is like WP, i.e. a user-based/user-run site, and so less reliable. While FootballDatabase is mainly good only for numbers in Europe, as many times it's missing numbers for South America, regarding B teams, it does include B teams for the majority of the players, even though they don't include the numbers. In addition, oGol has also 2 more matches later (can be seen only if you make the total count for matches with Cruzeiro because the total on a year differs compared to Cruzeiropedia), so this overall +5 seems more likely to be true. Please tell me if you agree or disagree, and why...
P.S. I still haven't checked if Dani Alves has 250 or 249, but I have it in mind to do so later...
Kind regards!
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 14:33, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
Hello again!
An addition to this is Zanetti's numbers, who has 861 with Inter instead of 858, with all numbers confirmed, which is what baffles me, if we consider that once you said oGol sometimes includes friendly matches. So, this is why I don't think that's the case, but instead I think those extra numbers are coming from B and C teams, which they lack the detailed stats, but they can confirm the total. Please tell me what you think.
Cheers!
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 15:14, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
Hello!
The article about 900 overall matches (friendlies included) from Cruzeiro could be well referring only to Cruzeiro "A" matches, so when you make the cross-check with PlayMakerStats you still will have 3 matches less. Also, apart from the correlation with "Cruzeiro B" on FootballDatabase in 1999 and 2000, you can also see on this article: No primeiro ano do goleiro no Cruzeiro, foram poucas as aparições de Fábio no time titular, já que quem tinha a posição absoluta era André, which I understand as that he made "a few appearances", which means more than one, no? So those 3 more matches in oGol (that they also have a confirmed sign) could well be with Cruzeiro B. I mean, if he only played once, wouldn't they mention that instead of saying he "made a few appearances"? However, I haven't searched through the web extensively, and I do have to search more for info related to the B team...
Regarding Zanetti, while Italy doesn't have reserve teams (apart from Juventus), his 3 more matches could have been with Inter Primavera because the Primavera team was an U20 team including one overage player at the time Zanetti played, those could have been some matches during recovery either in Campionato Nazionale Primavera or in Coppa Italia Primavera, but I also need to make further research. In fact, the "Estatísticas completas confirmadas" is the one that baffles me the most. If those weren't ticked, I would definitely agree with you that there is some mistake, e.g. 3 matches in a friendly tournament regarded as official. While Inter does give 858, from the details on which competitions those were, it's clear those are his numbers only with Inter's A team.
Greetings!
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 20:22, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
In addition, I would like to add that oGol, like official websites, often forget to include play-off and play-out matches, so it is possible those 3 more matches to have been after regular season, or even in qualifiers, e.g. CL qualifiers, i.e. the CL numbers in Inter's site could be missing 3 matches in the CL qualifiers, and this is something I will also try to find out. Regards! Lorry Gundersen (talk) 20:29, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
Hello!
While the question is if he played 3 matches with the B team of Cruzeiro, since he is listed in FootballDatabase as playing with Cruzeiro B in 1999 and 2000, I also did search even for Vasco with "B" and "reserve" as keys, though I mostly found results about "Vasco da Gama cigars" (LOL). Anyway, as there is nothing about Cruzeiro B to support those 3 more matches, we will of course keep it as it is, which is also consistent with Cruzeiro's website, for the reason you explained, i.e. can be crossed with the time announcing 900 matches there. Now, for Zanetti I still haven't looked, but there will be update after I do. But what do you think about +1 match for Argentina U23, isn't it a clear +1 there? By the way, regarding Jennings, for whom I said the total will change, there are +5 matches with Northern Ireland U18 in 1963 UEFA European Under-18 Championship, which we haven't included in the list (ref here, and there is also extra info for playing there, which can be found by a simple Google search).
If additional info appears later on the web about having played matches with a B team, whether it was with Cruzeiro or even Vasco, even though the issue is for the first one, for which oGol has +3 matches as confirmed, and +5 in total (including 2 later, but those 2 could well be from a friendly tournament mistakenly taken as official, as there are some numbers later with statistics not confirmed), we will of course make the according changes. For the time being, his numbers are good the way they are.
Best regards!
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 22:25, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
Zanetti edit
Hello!
First, I am making a separate section on Zanetti so to keep things neat. Now, apart from the 3 more matches for Inter I would like to also debate with you a +1 match for Argentina U23, for which the case I believe, unlike those +3 for Inter, is crystal clear here, at least to me: his 12 matches for Argentina U23 are 6 in the 1996 Olympics (RSSSF source here where the lineups can be seen) and 6 in the 1995 Panamerican Games (RSSSF source with lineups here), where it must be said that Argentina sent their U23 national team, while until 1995 the tournament allowed senior national teams (this can be confirmed here – the source is "El Gráfico"). If you see his "International stats" in his 11v11 profile (hyperlink here) you will see him playing in something called "Copa Mercosur" in 1994–95 (the +1), which Copa Mercosur in RSSSF is covered (see here), where it says the semi-final was played with the national teams that played in the Panamerican Games, i.e. the Argentina U23, while the final was played with the U20 teams, which makes the +1 for the U23 national team. In addition, there is also a video proof on YouTube for that match where Zanetti can be seen playing (direct link here), where in the title "Under-23" is also visible, and this is why I am saying the +1 here is crystal clear. In addition, I even checked if that match in Copa Mercosur was attributed to the senior team, but it isn't: RSSSF link here, which shows that it isn't in the 145 matches with the senior team.
Please tell me if you agree or not...
Kind regards!
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 16:22, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
Hello!
Perfect, thanks! This way, it will be easier to check if he played on those 3 matches...
REPORT about the 1st match – He did play in the first one, the UEFA Cup match vs. Benfica... while even in beSoccer's lineups he is not included (see here), this match is also on YouTube, where the lineups are also in the description, where apart from mentioned from the Russian commentator in the beginning where lineups are cited (link here), if you go to minutes between 7:11 until 7:16, where it shows a replay, you can see him on the field where the armband is also visible (link here), also until minute 7:10, because I watched until then, while you can't see him (because the resolution is not good and the camera doesn't close up on him until then), you can spot a few times the number 4 on the shirt (Zanetti's number) from distance during the game. Probably if you carry on watching the match, you may see him in more phases or even in close-ups, but that's not needed, it's clear he was on that match. In addition, Footballia that uses lineups from a FIFA-related database, does include him in the lineups (see here). So appears to be a mistake on Inter's site, probably they retrieved his matches when counting from WorldFootball or beSoccer. In addition, see UEFA's report here and the one from La Repubblica, where Javier Zanetti is clearly mentioned not only in the lineup, but many times in the report.
REPORT about the 2nd match – There is no video for the match available, but only for its highlights, where J. Zanetti can't be seen, and on the web you can't find him listed on the lineup or in a report. Several reports about the match can be found listing C. Zanetti, even from Inter's site (see here) or an Inter-related site (see here), but, as those are from 2017 and 2016 accordingly, where they could have retrieved the match wrongly attributed to C. Zanetti from WorldFootball, I was looking to find out a report from 2005, and I did, once again, found the one from La Repubblica (see here). The only confusion could be created from this source, because it only says Zanetti without "C." or "J." in front, but there is nothing else... conclusion: he did not play in the 2nd match.
REPORT about the 3rd match – It's pretty much the same story with the 2nd one... no video of the match, only highlights where nothing to indicate that we can exclude J. Zanetti played, but the conclusion is the same, based on the other info found. See lineup from Tribuna here and report with lineups from La Repubblica here, also from EuroSport.it here, where the reserves include two C. Zanetti so made it clear it was not J. Zanetti...
So, conclusion, from those 3 extra matches oGol has, it appears Zanetti did play in only one of them, and it's undisputed I believe both from the report (the one at the time played) and the video proof of the match. What do you think? Sum up: it's +1 on the matches for Inter and +1 for his matches for Argentina U23, so, if you agree, please tell me to proceed with the changes...
Kind regards!
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 01:25, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
Hello!
I think you are right... first, I must say the best site for results of Polish teams is 90minut.pl, but they have no lineups in this case (source here), but the "report" of another famous site (gol24.pl), link here says the team of Inter included J. Zanetti, but this is coming from an article on 19/01/2019 (this one), so they could have used one of the known database that includes J. Zanetti for the lineup, and the solution is coming once again from La Repubblica, which is a report on the date of the match and has J. Zanetti staying on the bench unused (see here). In addition, the highlights of the match on YouTube coming from a channel called GM Mile - Archivio F.C.Inter, i.e. "GM Mile's archive of Inter", which has highlights for many old famous matches and even complete historical matches, do also agree with La Repubblica, by having in the description J. Zanetti not playing (see here), so yes, it seems Inter to be right after all, as well as FootballDatabase on his numbers with Inter. Furthermore, I tried to see the frequency of the appearance on the web of other numbers related to 858, like 861, 860, 859, 857 and 856, and, while I found that 857 is very popular, e.g. here, where it also says he made 615 appearances in Serie A instead of the 618 that the site of Inter has, and while 857 as the total seems to be too famous, I found this from Reuters, which is one of the top from the top most reliable sources worldwide and also this, which, after reading about him playing vs. Chievo and was validated after consulting the source, it's clear 858 to be the right number for Inter.
So, +1 for Argentine U23 it is, the rest stays the same...
Best regards!
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 05:00, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
Hello!
There is no problem at all if DBs mention those matches separately, which usually, when mentioned, it is done separately, since that's done for comparison purposes and statistics done by companies dealing with stats, since usually the case where, e.g., there are play-offs, play-out, qualifiers or preliminary matches, some teams play fewer matches and so there is an imbalancement if someone wishes to make a statistic where the matches played during the season are involved (whatever the operation: +, /, x,...) and you don't have the matches separately, i.e. that statistic will be "fairer" (more accurate) if calculated only during the regular season, when the players had the same amount of matches to play availability. That statistically is correct, i.e. for which I agree they should have them separately. The problem though usually appears sometimes that DBs don't include at all league play-offs/play-out matches, preliminary cup matches, et c., and those, unfortunately, are often kept out even in the official website of teams, which makes them unaccounted for. Now, regarding the article, yes, most likely leaves out those 3 matches, but saying 615 is also inaccurate, without mentioning at all the 3 play-off matches. If it said "he played 615 in regular season and 3 in play-offs", it would be accurate. Since he wants to use a total, it should be 618.
Regards!
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 12:31, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
Marcelinho Paraíba edit
Hello!
I couldn't find references on Marcelinho Paraíba for his appearances for Campinense (16) and for Paraguaçuense I only found a source about 29 (8 goals) instead of 34 (see here), even though there is a source claiming he scored 11 goals there (see here), so, in the absence of the support, I suggest a –21 deduction (16+5) with '+' added to his appearances and goals (the total will go to 1,058+). While I watch Brazilian football in the South, the North is an unknown territory for me, so didn't know where to look, and I couldn't find somewhere anything related to his numbers for Campinense in an extensive and exhaustive search, but only general info that he excelled there and won two Campeonato Paraibano (one in 1991 and one in 1993, during his time there in 1991-1993), and it's a wonder where this 16 is coming from, seems as wherever the source was before it has now disappeared from the internet. What do you say?
Kind regards!
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 22:26, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
Hello!
Yes, oGol is the best choice 100% for Latin American footballers stats, and specifically for Brazilians it's 150% the best choice, and NFT was not favored over oGol, just oGol has been updated, and of course we should add the updated stats...
These were his oGol stats (archived link on 16 January 2021) at the time the last changes were made, where you can see that NFT (which only shows league matches, and usually missing regional leagues numbers) was preferred at the time because oGol had him only with 29 then.
Best Regards,
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 17:05, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
Hello!
It's an affiliated with the club site and also an organized one, one which includes match details, like Verdazzo is for Palmeiras, so it's a trusted site (at least to me), and so I think we should include it; oGol makes a mistake about this match, and it must be also said I've come across with similar matches in the past where this happened (substitute for a substitute) on which oGol didn't include the player as well.
P.S. I would like to add the main issue we have for this player is his first years; the years in Campinense, where he won 2 Paraibano (1991 and 1993) championships as we are talking about 3 years here (Paraibano 1992 included as well), but we are not even having a single match for the club, and Paraguaçuense, where he most likely has played in more matches.
Kind regards,
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 22:22, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
Raúl edit
Hello!
First, just for information, I think I may have figured out why the Spanish list has Roberto Carlos with 35 matches for Atl. Mineiro, it must be a confusion with another player also called Roberto Carlos who played before him: if you see previous matches, e.g. 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991 from futebol80.com.br, which is another good site for results in Brazil (and lineups), you will find many times a "Roberto Carlos" listed, but this was another one, who, by the way, also played for Palmeiras in 1987, who even "older" in time played is Roberto Carlos 2 in Verdazzo (even the full name can cause confusion: Roberto Carlos da Rocha Melo). It must be this, because there is no other support that Inter's (of Milan) Roberto Carlos played in more than 3 friendly games for Atl. Mineiro.
Now, in case you know, I would like to ask information on something: Raúl's BeSoccer profile has him (not the initial page, but the one when you check "Career") with 742 matches for Real Madrid instead of 741 and 1 goal more... while B and C teams are well known by many other reliable sites, and there are also there (so obviously this extra match isn't with RM's B or C team), also his 741 matches can be confirmed by Real Madrid's site and a dozen of other reliable sources, so do you know if he played any match with RM that got later cancelled?
Kind regards!
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 07:54, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
Hello!
Yes, you are right... this was a friendly match, a match for the Trofeo Santiago Bernabéu (Spanish WP article, and English article here), which is definitely a friendly match (RSSSF's list with club friendly tournaments), and I believe it's only mentioned because it was a tribute/farewell (from RM) match (RM's link here), in which he played both for RM and Al Sadd. While there may be a possibility Al Sadd or Qatari FA to have counted this as official, it doesn't matter, as long as RM doesn't count it as such, and also because it was in a friendly club tournament...
Now, regarding the matches about "Legends" ("Leyendas" in this case) included in BeSoccer, the whether they are official or not depends. For starters, those are included on statistical/career info of players because they are highly regarded, as they are like matches of All-Star teams or League selects teams/the elite. While there is an according association, called International Master Football Association, which once held a World Cup of Veterans (called Copa Pelé), which was official (even though not by FIFA), from what I know, the matches where there is a team of legends in the new century (21st century) have been friendlies (you can see, for instance, quite many matches in Footballia of the kind, with all being listed as friendlies: link for Legends teams here and for RM Leyendas here), but I don't exclude the fact some FAs/some countries to have considered some of them official, e.g. if such is played in, for example, Saudi Arabia (for profit/advertising purposes) it wouldn't be a surprise if the according FA regarded it as official (this country is used only as an example, chosen randomly, nothing more), but in any way we cannot include them on the list, though we can do so in notes, for "completion purposes", because of being highly regarded matches...
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 15:22, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
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František Plánička edit
Hello!
First, sorry for the delay to respond, I have to say I had also been away from my pass-revision from the players and addition of refs for where those were missing, but I recently have continued strongly with this and almost finished, and, by the way, I did find refs for Spain U15 Iniesta's number; at the moment the list is ok with references, except for two players: Rivaldo, whom I haven't yet checked, and Dani Alves, for whom I still want to see if he has 249 or 250 matches for Sevilla; unfortunately, there is no good link from a Sevilla-affiliated site for the total number, but there is still room for search. However, there is another issue, which I would like to discuss with you about, and it's about a player not yet in the list, whom as a name I knew, but never searched, and I recently came across again, František Plánička, who is included in a list of players with over 1,000 appearances (link here, where he has 1,042 matches), which is clear from the site of Slavia Praha (link here) that this number is 969 matches with the club + 73 for the national team, but there, in their link, they also have 4 more clubs he played for and a total of 1,442 matches. So, as with such numbers he will top the list, i.e. it would be a very important change, I would like an opinion here, since coming from the site of Slavia Praha seems pretty official to me. Additionally, I found other sites, which have him with a total of 1,235 matches (link here, which is in English, and here), which total seems to appear the most (for example, see also here, here and here, where in the last it's also detailed by team, a thing that makes it more "passable" to the list of players with most appearances), at a good enough amount so to think the more appropriate number for the list is 1,235, plus a note that, even Slavia Praha's site claims 1,442, the rest sources online don't agree with. What do you think?
Looking forward for some feedback.
Best regards,
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 20:08, 5 February 2022 (UTC)
Also, if you exclude matches with selects, in the ref that has those 1,235 in details, i.e. by team played, (link here) the total is 1.186 matches (where 73 matches for the national team are counted instead of 74, as there it says 74), and I would like to add that the ref from AD.nl (see here) talks only about professional and official appearances, and states clearly the matches are official, because Slavia's site could have totals (including friendlies). Best regards, Lorry Gundersen (talk) 07:53, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
David Seaman edit
Hello!
TOPIC 1: Yes, you are right, this was an official tournament, and I included the match on his QPR total, since it's on his ENFA profile, which also proves they are missing matches (a match), even from English clubs, because they have there 177 and not 178. There was already an earlier friendly commemorative tournament, called Football League Centenary Tournament, and then they decided to make an official one. See the NB here.
TOPIC 2: ENFA does have 564 matches, but they include only A team matches, while SoccerBase includes all official ones, i.e. also B and C teams' official matches, if they are available. 568 also appears online, e.g. here and here.
Best regards,
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 02:08, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
Hello!
Thanks... based on ENFA, he did play in those three matches in question. Also, I made a season by season check with oGol and ENFA for QPR, because also oGol includes matches in cups not included in ENFA (which is only about official A team matches), and I found out +3 more cup matches in 1986/87 in oGol, +4 more cup matches in 1987/88 in oGol, +1 more cup match in ENFA in 1988/89 (the one about the centenary cup we already included on the list) and +4 more cup matches in ENFA in 1989/90 (plus one to those three you mentioned). Now, as ENFA has a total of 175 matches, where 5 aren't in oGol, we have 170 (in common) + 5 (in ENFA, not in oGol) + 7 (in oGol, not in ENFA) = 182 total for QPR.
Regards,
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 10:10, 11 February 2022 (UTC)
Hello!
I am informing that I will give my views on that site as soon as possible...
Cheers!
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 03:01, 26 February 2022 (UTC)
Hello!
There are various factors that make me think oGol to be more accurate than that site: first, I must say that oGol is not infallible, so they definitely could make a mistake on the 2 more cup matches, because QPR appeared that season to have played in 4 instead of 6 FA Cup matches, but, even without those 2 matches, there are still differences and credible/logical ones, which would still make him have 180 matches and not 175, even though accidentally as a total it's 175 without 2 matches, but by season there are differences.
Now, I must add here that the format of that site doesn't convince me at all, since, as a fan-base site, seems very primitive, and it is undoubtedly not thorough and exhaustive as they have him with 166 matches, which seems like an earlier version of ENFA, and that cannot be right; a player may have more matches than the ones in ENFA but never fewer (since they don't have reserve numbers, and of course I am only talking of official reserves numbers), and then (even though minor) a negative point is also the excel format which has totals (like there is only the league and a cup), it's not that excel isn't considered official (which is minor), but that there is much more work on the layout done on other sites of similar function, and so this also shows no major work; a good fans-based site should be both thorough and user-friendly.
Now, taken into account not only the availability of a young Seaman playing a logical amount of 5 or 7 more matches for the reserve team, but also the reality of the era in English football then; the years of Seaman playing for QPR coincide with the time English football was banned from European tournaments, so those years are full of small official regional tournaments/cups popping frequently, and easy those 2 matches could have been on one such a cup, but, in lack of a variable in oGol, to have been added as "FA Cup"; 7 more matches in that time for Seaman not only look normal, but they could even been considered fewer than the actual number.
Furthermore, the most common mistake by oGol is in the name or surname (for instance, remember Christian/Javier Zanetti's case and Fábio, who is known to have never played for Brazil but oGol has him with a total of 3 matches and lists 2, in which 2 matches, and this can be confirmed by 11v11, he didn't play, but another Fábio did), and that is because an attachment with only surnames can be accidentally accepted as a proof, so would totally make sense if there was a confusion with another player called Seaman: based on ENFA, there is only one other player with the surname Seaman, who first appeared in 2017, so that's hardly the case here.
So, to conclude, unless there is extra info that can shadow the credence given to oGol, I think we should trust oGol here (a site which, by the way, has been accurate for English footballers, about English teams stats of the time Seaman played and after), as the fan-based site isn't trustworthy at all.
I finally managed to respond here... by the way, there was also another reason that site isn't reliable, which I now forget...
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 08:52, 6 March 2022 (UTC)
However, I'd like to add that if you think we should reduce his tally by 2, I won't object to that.
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 08:58, 6 March 2022 (UTC)
As I couldn't find something relative online, I guess it's in relation with his data on that site.
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 12:18, 6 March 2022 (UTC)
Hello!
How sure can we be there weren't any preliminary rounds? Usually there are in cups, and RSSSF doesn't seem to have any, i.e. every season seems to start with a Round 1. Also, how sure can we be there wasn't a League Cup for reserve/B teams or at least another cup for specific regions of England branded as League Cup that season, which was a common practice back then? In addition, if Seaman played that season for some time with the reserve team, it makes sense to have played in more cup matches for both FA and League Cups, with the condition there are different ones for the reserve teams, something that is also enhanced from the fact it's his first season with the team, i.e. he most likely started initially with the reserve team on his first season. Then there is that, while someone can send any numbers (s)he likes in oGol, I don't think they would allow a confirmation of the numbers without a decent document proof, because Seaman's numbers are all confirmed. Furthermore, I don't think someone would be tampering with Seaman's numbers there, as he doesn't need tampering to reach 1,000 or a tampering to be on the top places of lists with at least 1,000 matches and he no way is someone who had/has an immense fanbase like CR7, for whom tampering would make sense, and also important is the fact there are only differences from ENFA in his QPR numbers, i.e. if someone was messing it would make more sense to cheat some here some there, i.e. have made + matches for other teams as well (that usually is a normal abnormal pattern). Finally, there is the trust on oGol, especially on English footballers at the time Seaman played and after, because before it's another story, i.e. for older players (players who played before) in English football (that's only England, not the whole UK, as for the rest countries of UK oGol is lacking in all years) is definitely not a site I would recommend for stats. So no, I don't think we should remove that 1 game, and I am also under the opinion of having the +2 for the FA Cup, which we could, since it's referenced, and logical combined with all other factors previously (and in my previous answer) explained. Nonetheless, we could always do with Seaman the same thing we did for Fábio and Roberto Carlos, which is a solution good enough since it includes the extra matches, and at the same time it doesn't (the + matches solution), do you agree? By the way, if I recall well, the differences (more matches from oGol) are in the first two seasons he played for QPR, because in the next final two seasons the extra matches are in ENFA, so we are talking for 1 more match to those 3 or 2, i.e. he will have 177 or 178 with a note of possibly having 5 or 4 more matches accordingly, and, by the way, being only on the first two seasons is a sign that could have been for the reserve team and also shows that oGol even lacks matches for QPR: in contrast to the rest clubs he played, there is no much decent back-up (as we realized), and even other to those extra matches couldn't be excluded easily, especially if we take into account the reality of the time he played for them. So, bottom line, I have no problem with 177/178 with a note of possibly extra matches (5/4), but I believe more in 182, as it makes much more sense for various reasons and is also referenced, like it is for Fábio and Roberto Carlos (the extra matches they have are also appearing confirmed by oGol).
Best regards,
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 08:22, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
OK... for the 1987–88 season, where he has 4 more matches in oGol than FA; ENFA also has 32 league matches and 3 league matches, they don't have the 1 FMC (Full Members Cup) match and they only have one instead of 4 FA Cup matches that season, the replay against Luton Town, even though QPR seems to have played 4 matches in FA Cup that season. If WP is correct, the FMC match oGol shows him as playing and ENFA doesn't is against Reading, since QPR only played 1 FMC match that season; now 11v11, which is a site feeded by ENFA, has no lineups, but ENFA does, and has Nicky Johns under the posts instead of Seaman, so he couldn't have played there, unless oGol is talking about a corresponding Full Members' Cup for reserve teams, and he is also the goalkeeper who played in those 3 cup matches in that season. So, he didn't play 4 more matches, at least with the A team.
As I think he most likely has played more matches at that period of time, and at the second season for QPR seems to have been credited with matches not played, since they can be attributed to someone else, but his first season works in mysterious ways, I suggest a total of 175 matches and adding a general note that he may have played in more matches based on oGol, like Roberto Carlos, but in his case without specifying a number of how many. Do you agree?
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 10:24, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
Hello!
While I don't exclude the fact those matches to refer to other matches, i.e. from other cups, i.e. to be other from those four by Nicky Jones, even though that seems more like a mistake (3 FA Cup + 1 FMC), which is not the same case with his previous season, where there are extra matches QPR didn't play in those tournaments they say, so, giving credence to the number, either are with the reserve team or in other cups with QPR A team but attributed wrongly as FA Cup and League Cup, what Nicky Jones has in his oGol profile is irrelevant because there could be a document attributing all 4 FA Cup matches to him and another used as proof for Seaman (both with mistakes), unless he also has other cup matches attributed wrongly as FA Cup or ones with the reserve team, i.e. in simple words: that he has 4 FA Cup matches that season doesn't mean that Seaman couldn't have the same 4 matches listed on his profile because I don't think there is a single ID for a match (oGol doesn't seem to have that kind of detail), even though they could well mean different matches. And yes, I think ENFA in case of a conflict should be preferred over oGol, when it comes to A teams level comparison, most cups, and only the 4 top leagues of English football because that's what they cover, and, in addition, Nicky Jones was clearly the second choice then (based on the few matches he played then) and having being replaced with the first goalkeeper choice in the replay cup match makes perfectly sense...
Of course, if we find other matches not included in ENFA for Seaman, we could increase his tally for QPR; for instance, he may have played in matches of other cups, like Full Members' Cup (that lasted some years), Screen Sport Super Cup, the Anglo-Italian Cup, et c., and I'm only talking about 80s-mid 90s, because there were even other cups a decade earlier (I know that when looking for Hutchison; famous official cups include the Anglo-Scottish Cup, the Texaco Cup, the Anglo-Italian Cup, and so on).
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 11:39, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
João Moutinho edit
Hello!
Yes, I am aware he is nearing, but I think we should/could wait until he is 998 before adding him on the list...
Best regards,
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 17:37, 11 February 2022 (UTC)
Hello!
Well, I cannot find anything good (better) to support either 27 or 30, but, as NFT by default is sparing and as he happens to be European (oGol is usually more accurate for non-Europeans), I am pretty sure 30 is accurate, besides it's a logical number for a player who played in the most matches of the season (the keeper had 37: see link here). Also, I doubt there is any better than NFT source to confirm either 27 or 30...
A couple of sites with 30:
https://www.zimbio.com/Joao+Moutinho (it says "this content is based on data from multiple web sources...", but looks like a WP copy n' paste, with the errors of the time made, e.g. 155 for Monaco)
https://sportmob.com/en/article/953032-Joao-Moutinho-Biography (seems thorough)
P.S. Link for all numbers with Portugal national teams: https://www.fpf.pt/pt/Jogadores/Jogador/playerId/560742
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 21:20, 11 February 2022 (UTC)
Hello!
Additionally, there is also another reason why 30 looks normal, and that is that NFT has CR7 for Sporting B with 2 matches (who obviously was promoted very quickly and young to the A team and didn't play in more): with CR7's immense fan club and frenzy, if they allowed tampering or cheating, I think we would have CR7 there with more than 2 matches for Sporting Lisboa B, i.e. the integrity of NFT.
Best regards,
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 09:14, 12 February 2022 (UTC)
Hello!
Just a heads-up: one more match and he can be added (as hidden) on the list... by the way, his club numbers (except Sporting B) can be also crossed-verified by IFFHS (link here).
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 07:41, 6 March 2022 (UTC)
Hello!
Just informing he has played 998 matches and I will add him hided on the list as soon as possible.
Regards,
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 11:06, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
Hello!
His BeSoccer profile has 6 more matches with the shirt of Portugal: a total of 23 for Portugal U21 instead of 17, but they list only 17, the same as FPF, though the nature of the games could imply there are more, as there is only one friendly match in those 17... could the total be 23, but 6 matches in friendlies are not listed? What do you reckon about this? (unless BeSoccer lists extra matches in which he was part of the squad, but wasn't used, as there is that possibility as well) Also, they have a total of 16 for Portugal U17 instead of 15, but a match on 17 May 2003 is listed twice (both as friendly and Euro U17).
Regards,
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 19:00, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
Hello!
What do you say about these possible extra matches for Portugal U21? By experience, when someone has 16 official matches with the U21 national team, having also 7 friendly matches looks "more normal" than having played only 1 friendly match (I mean if you place 1 or 2 friendly matches before the official ones, which is what normally happens). In addition, is BeSoccer prone to mistakes? How much can we trust it for Portuguese players? As a Spanish site, I, for one, expect it to be mainly reliable not only for Spanish players, but also for Portuguese ones.
Regards,
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 15:23, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
Hello!
First, I don't think there is a case of FIFA and non-FIFA friendlies here, as the same rules that apply for the senior national team don't apply for the U-x national teams, which by default/definition are B, C teams et c.; for example, look at how many substitutes are on this match (included in FPF's site), which wouldn't be a FIFA (A-level) match if it was about the senior national team (I believe the only matches of the U-x level not included would be if they weren't 90 minutes matches, i.e. sometimes there are friendlies of 45' or 80', or when they are against clubs or not proper national teams), but at the moment in lack of other info to support more matches and because indeed the more gravity should be given to FPF (Portugal's Football Federation) site, I agree with you, we can only add those extra matches as '+' to the total unless we have other info to support more matches, even though I think he most likely has more matches played there. It must be also said BeSoccer doesn't seem to make such mistakes, except for double records. For instance, CR7 numbers there, who also played many U-x matches, totally agree with FPF's numbers, and also the same stands for Moutinho's (without the obvious double record mistake), except his U-21 numbers.
Regards,
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 10:43, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
Rivaldo edit
Hello!
Regarding his time in Olympicaos, the Greek sources have a total of 101 matches and 43 goals (with some 44 goals, but I believe this is a mistake), you can see 101 also on transfermarkt (link here), which though is in the "black list", and even in a twit (see here) from UEFA (via UEFA Europe League), which is "strong".
For example, some Greek football/sport news:
https://www.thrylos24.gr/rivalnto-ta-gkol-toy-ston-olympiako-video/
https://www.redking.gr/content/football/40532-to-gkalop-ths-uefa-gia-ton-thrylo
The last two are sites with news only about Olympiacos.
Additionally, he appears with a total of 101 also in a site in English (see here), but I can't guarantee for any reliability or integrity of this site.
So I suggest a change to 101 (43 goals), what do you say?
Regards,
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 23:12, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
Hello!
Perhaps you know any other than the usual sources for his numbers with Brazil U23/Olympic team and/or Brazil U20, as the list has him with 7 (1 goal) and 9 (1 goal) accordingly, but his WP bio-article has 8 (1 goal) and 13 (2 goals) in the infobox?
Best regards,
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 20:01, 17 February 2022 (UTC)
Hello!
Yes, you are right... they count it twice, because they have recorded it twice, I will correct it on the list.
https://www.besoccer.com/match/goias-goiania/sao-paulo-fc/2011259188
https://www.besoccer.com/match/goias-goiania/sao-paulo-fc/2011204439 (duplicate page)
Regards,
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 22:06, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
Hello!
By the way, some info about the senior NT: CBF has him with 78 (38 goals) for the NT (see link here), RSSSF with 74 (35 goals), but last updated in 2014, and NFT as well, even though theirs is 73 FIFA + 1 non-FIFA, so they have 1 match less, but these are missing a match against Poland, which both oGol (which is the most reliable for Brazilians) and 11v11 include, hence the total of 75 (35 goals), and FootballDatabase includes 2 matches for Brazil B (1 goal): 11v11 backs this by having in the stats a total of 77 matches (36 goals), 78 if you count the match against the "Rest of the World", but listing 75 (35) in match by match, which means 2 (1) not listed had been with Brazil B, which is usually the case for B teams' numbers (same one for reserves, where they exist in the totals, but when listing the matches their data is missing), so the list now has 77 (36) including 2 for Brazil B, which is very close to what CBF has [78 (38)], but I couldn't find any good support for 78 (or even 79, as the Spanish counterpart list has, but they may have counted the match against the "Rest of the World", as not even CBF has 79). If you can find good references for 78 (+1 to the total), we could of course increase the number, backed by CBF's source, or even +2 if there are trusted sources for a total of 79. I personally don't consider CBF good enough, as it is known to also include unofficial matches in the total, so this extra 1 (2) could well be referring to an unofficial match.
Regards,
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 23:33, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
Zé Roberto edit
Hello!
TOPIC 1 – As it is about Spanish stats, I agree with changing it to 21, based on BDFutbol and BeSoccer, but I haven't done so as I am still looking for references for 3 more matches. If I find none, it will be done 21. Even oGol lists 21, while they have 24 as a total. At the moment, I have found nothing to indicate more than 21.
TOPIC 2 – Based on the sources at the moment, what oGol has and what other sites have (NFT & FootballDatabase), seems they are talking about other matches, i.e. I understand it's about 14 (1) matches in the league and 12 (8) other, i.e. there clearly cannot be an overlap, so, based on the sources, the correct one seemingly is 26 (9), but I am still looking for other references, on a language I don't know (Arabian), where I also have found nothing. By the way, there is a dead official site about Al-Gharafa, and there is nothing relative found on archived links.
P.S. I currently have a problem with the keyboard, which currently works by itself, specifically deletes part of what I write, so, as that on Seaman is a long response, I couldn't manage to respond, but I will as soon as I manage to solve this issue: in a nutshell, I trust more oGol than that site, but I will explain why as soon as possible.
Regards,
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 05:19, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
Hello!
TOPIC 1 – I have made it 21. Now, from what I understand, as Real Madrid B is well-documented, and I don't recall or find any regional official tournaments in Madrid at the time he played for Real Madrid, the only way he has played 3 more matches is if he played with Real Madrid C, which is not well-documented, but I found nothing relative.
TOPIC 2 – Still nothing here, but I believe 26 (10) to be correct, i.e. seems oGol has a document of matches in cups and NFT one for the league, as we are talking about a country that has every year 5 cups. What do you say about this?
P.S. I: That he passed 1,000 games is also on an article from CONMEBOL.
P.S. II: By the way, I will make the change-reduction to Seaman as soon as possible, as I am currently facing technical difficulties again...
Cheers!
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 11:05, 6 March 2022 (UTC)
Hello!
Yes, it seems you are right that he has more matches... while it's not uncommon to not have played in the Paulista in those seasons, i.e. he could have started playing for Portuguesa after the 1994 Paulista, which ended in May 1994 and he is listed on oGol with a first match in August 1994 and also in 1995 he could have not been on the squad signed for the Paulista (Brazilian clubs have like 60-70 team A players and excluding players from one tournament, but not another in the season/year is not uncommon, sometimes it's intentional if it's combined with other factors, e.g. an early/old for football age and/or an injury), I did find this article which says he played, so it needs further looking... perhaps we can add some matches in 1994 Paulista and 1995 Paulista, if not all...
By the way, do you know any good sites for stats for old players of Portuguesa?
I will try to find more matches in 1994 and in 1995...
Thanks!
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 10:55, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
Hello!
Yes, I agree, i.e. it makes sense the matches of Paulista to be there, but 13 friendlies in a year is too much in 2007 for a Brazilian club. Also, while that site seems decent, I don't think we should exclude that they have matches missing: for instance, you say "...I can only see that Santos played in Paulista, Serie A and Libert....", so Santos didn't play at least 1 match in Copa do Brasil that season? That is super weird, unless there was a ban. Also, Sao Paulo (one of the greatest, in number of population, states in Brazil) and Southeast Brazil don't have any regional cups? In addition, AcervoSantista, which includes also friendlies and claims to include all the matches of Santos, includes only one friendly in 2007, which doesn't seem right at all, i.e. while no Brazilian club plays 13 friendlies in 2007, also no club plays only one friendly in a year, as that would be very compromising for the footballers, which shows again that site is missing matches. So, bottom line, even though they may have friendlies included there (in the extra 13), we can't exclude the fact of also not having friendlies, and, assuming there are also friendlies in them, removing 13 matches (which then could be something like 8 official + 5 friendlies or 9 officials + 4 friendlies, et c.) is better be kept as it is, i.e. the harm of having like 8 official matches fewer in the total seems bigger in quantity than the harm of having included 5 more matches in friendlies in the total. What do you say?
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 13:22, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
Hello!
Yes, there could be other official matches because 13 in friendlies is too much, but the same could be said for the official matches as well, especially without matches for Copa do Brasil, so there are most likely friendlies included in those 13, but it would be a gaffe to exclude all of them, i.e. I think it's better the way it is, so we keep it that way until other info surfaces... however, it must be said there are a couple of publications where he is credited with 48 (12): check this, this and this (Zé Roberto Oficial), but that last site has mistakes and only complicates things (for instance, there are Qatari league sources that can confirm 14 matches and 1 goal in them for Al-Gharafa, and that's only his numbers in the league, i.e. not 9 goals in 14 matches, also Gremiopedia gives 119 matches for Gremio, not 118, and he had 61 matches for Portuguesa only in Serie A, not overall, et c.), and the publications could have copied that site (also, what footballers and their official site claim about their stats are of no relevance because there is a conflict of interest): by the way, in Portuguese WP he is with 48 for Santos, but with 14 goals, not that this means anything by itself alone, as it is a "pedia" site.
Regards,
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 17:55, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
Hello!
There is only one site I know which is most related-affiliated to Portuguesa which has been proven to be reliable (had been previously used to Djalma Santos), even though it's a blogspot, but it doesn't say anything about the number of matches he played for Portuguesa (link here about his bio-article there, in the "Orgulho de ser Lusa !!!" Lusa legends series), however it says that Zé Roberto initially played for Real Madrid B as Real had already reached the threshold of foreign players, so maybe the 24 matches for Real instead of 21 (of only A team matches) is right after all?
Now, regarding his numbers for Portuguesa, I have found this article from their site, which says he played in 132 matches with their shirt, so a difference of 43 from 89, which should be his matches in 1994 (30 rounds) and 1995 Paulista championships (30 first phase + 6 final phase rounds), i.e. he played in 43 matches out of 66 available ones (which is a respectable/credible/logical amount); however, we don't know if that total includes friendlies (they easily could, as well as couldn't), but, if we can't find other info that claims that he played in fewer than 43 matches, I think we should add 43 in the total, do you agree?
P.S. Tell me also your opinion on Real Madrid; 24 instead of 21 works fine for me, which eventually seems to be B team matches not documented.
Best regards,
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 09:38, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
Roberto Carlos (again) edit
Hello!
Sorry to bring this back, but I have to say it seems he did play more than 28 matches for Anzhi: while I understand he played in 5 friendly matches, which +5 in oGol could be from there, i.e. a mistake, but it's not only fBref that has him with 29 league matches (direct link), even though they lack a log, but also that NFT backs this (direct link), which NFT has proven to be the most reliable for league matches stats, especially with B/Reserve teams stats that even other sources lack: 29 league matches + 3 cup matches (Anzhi's link) = 32 total, which makes oGol's 33 more likely; those 5 extra matches could have been 4 in reserve league and 1 in reserve cup or an earlier cup stage with the B team or A team not included in their site because of being preliminary and/or a match in small regional tournament/cup that is official by Dagestan. What do you say?
P.S. I haven't forgotten about Seaman...
Regards,
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 08:45, 5 March 2022 (UTC)
Hello!
Unfortunately, not all B team numbers have different slots in NFT, but only the ones with more powerful and famous leagues, like Ligue 1, i.e. I don't find different rows for Russian clubs, so I assume they have a total including that sum along the A team, but I have no problem with doing what was done for Fábio; if someone questions the extra matches, we can that way have that covered, i.e. he may have played, but, in lack of other refs, he may not have played more games for Anzhi, even though I am more in favor of the idea of including them in the total, and also the +5 to Fábio.
Regards,
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 06:20, 6 March 2022 (UTC)
Alex edit
Alexsandro de Souza also appears to have reached 1,000 matches, based on a post from ESPN (link here), and since then appeared in 31 more matches for Curitiba (based on his oGol profile) so the total for senior matches would go to 1,030, for which there is a ref, so the point is if we can trust ESPN, as there are some differences from oGol. What is your feedback/opinion/input here? Do you think ESPN includes friendlies? For instance, while it doesn't appear he played for Parma (0 league matches in NFT and 0 matches in oGol), that post has him with 5 matches, but he could have well played, e.g., 5 matches in the Primavera, and he has 32 more matches for Fenerbahçe, but the point is that it doesn't seem to include friendlies, because of the numbers for Brazilian teams being either the same or having very small deviations, i.e. normal deviations, ones that could be justifiable: for instance, if you see those 205 for Curitiba by detail, you will see all listed by tournament (Serie A, Paranaense, et c.), and none being in a not defined tournament --> if ESPN and the Turkish ref included friendlies, they would certainly have more matches for Curitiba, as it would be a miracle if he didn't play one single friendly match in 5+ years there. Could the post not include friendlies for the Brazilian teams, but does so for Parma and Fenerbahçe? What do you say? By the way, even if we consider it includes friendlies for the European teams and official only for Brazilian ones, i.e. 37 fewer, we still have 2 more games for Cruzeiro from oGol (these are also well-listed, by tournament, unless there is somewhere a mistake, as Alex is a common name) and 4 for Brazil U20, so the total is 999, but you can see 8 more matches for U20/Youth and 5 for U21 on 11v11, so 1,012, and even with 231 matches for Palmeiras (oGol) instead of 241 (ESPN), the total is 1,002, and 1,000 with 2 fewer matches for Cruzeiro. In addition, he has 2 more matches for Brazil in oGol, so 1,002, if those are confirmed by other sources: if not, he still has 1,000. Also, assuming his trophies in WP are correct, he may also have matches for Brazil U17.
P.S. Because of the keyboard having produced a mind of its own, this took like ages to be made, I was actually initially going to make a section Roberto Carlos & Alex.
Regards,
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 10:49, 5 March 2022 (UTC)
Hello!
To sum up, and because the keyboard doesn't let me expand unless it takes ages:
Curitiba 205
Fenerbahçe 344 (Yes, I agree, they definitely have totals for Fenerbahçe, most likely for both European teams he played)
Cruzeiro 118 (+5 in oGol --> maybe Cruzeiropedia makes a mistake here, because, as I said before, like Curitiba, the 123 are listed by tournament name, i.e. there aren't 5 with a not defined competition)
Palmeiras 229 (73), based on Verdazzo, (+2 could well be for the B team, but also the matches here are by tournament name in oGol)
Parma 0 (unless we find a ref of playing with the B team)
Flamengo 12
Brazil 49 definitely (there may be 51, by oGol, which also lists the matches)
Brazil U23 19 (by ESPN, which I believe is accurate, and we also include international friendlies after all --> 11v11 has 13 matches, but they don't include the friendlies with U23 teams, and, taken into account that he played in three different eras, 6 matches in friendlies make sense, especially because Brazil U23 plays 2 friendly matches before play-offs/normal tournaments)
Brazil U21 5 (11v11)
Brazil U20 12 (11v11)
Brazil U17 ?
Total 993 (but +5 for Cruzeiro, +2 for Palmeiras and +2 for Brazil = 1,002, also we must search for Brazil U17, as he may have matches there as well)
What do you think?
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 07:15, 6 March 2022 (UTC)
I must also add that I know nothing of other tournaments that he could have amassed 31 more official matches in Turkey, and it's a number he couldn't have achieved with B teams, unless there were long periods of recoveries after injuries, but the deviations for the Brazilian teams are credible; could have been with B teams or in matches missing from Cruzeiropedia and Verdazzo.
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 07:25, 6 March 2022 (UTC)
Hello!
Yes, in the first match it was Alex Antônio de Melo Santos instead of him: the match can be found entirely here, where he is visible instead of Alexsandro de Souza, at time 0:40+, and by shirt number (6).
In the third match it's not Alexandro Vieira Xavier, but Alex Antônio de Melo Santos again: match entirely here, where he can be seen around 9:10, and at the beginning with the shirt number (6).
As soon as I find extra info for the 2nd in question match, I will give an update...
Regards,
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 01:45, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
As when there are no matches detailed, where the total could have come from a reliable document of totals for official matches and detailed some matches are missing, it's hard to prove whether he played or not (in which match/es?), which could be B team matches, I am focusing more on finding info regarding the match left from Cruzeiro; if he didn't play there, then the total could go 999 (993+6 possibly more) and also want to search the extra 2 matches for Brazil, where if there are 2 matches more by mistake, it would be 997 and, combined with no info for a Brazil U17 (until now), I would agree of not adding him on the list (it would seem he was close to 1,000, but didn't reach it).
P.S. The trophy he has for a Brazil U17 is only on his English WP bio-article, not on other WPs...
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 08:59, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
Hello!
Game 1: There is this, which shows he didn't play in that game (a match report from that date: just for information, as it's not the case here, if there is no date, in most of the times the [view-source:http://www.cruzeiro.org/ft-min03-rbr-cru.php page's source code] shows the time it was posted/published-created).
Game 2: There is this, which shows he didn't play in that game (blogspot, but match sheet/log SS).
However, I want to check matches that are listed in oGol, as not playing in them would be definite that he hasn't reached 1,000 games.
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 13:35, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
Hello!
So, as listed matches not played would definitely mean he hasn't reached the threshold, I started looking at his numbers for Brazil, and I found out that oGol and NFT are missing a match for Brazil that 11v11 has, a friendly against Korea in 1999 (28 March 1999), but, if you see the lineups, you will see that Korea made 6 substitutes on that game and, as FIFA limit's in friendlies is 5 (as far as I know), that game doesn't count as A level by FIFA, but it does as B, and should have been included by NFT as non-FIFA; anyway, it is still an international match, and also I am pretty sure that's the B match for Brazil in FootballDatabase, so it's actually +1 for Brazil. Then I found out this match exists in Footballia, and I go there (direct link here) and see the change says Alessandro, which leads to Alessandro "Cambalhota" Andrade de Oliveira instead of the Alex in question (in Wikipedia says he played for Brazil once in 1999); as he came as a substitute in 65' you can see him from minute 1:09:55 and after (shirt number 20), where about 40 seconds are enough to understand it was Alessandro Cambalhota who played there, so not +1 for Brazil. However, if you go to that match on FootballDatabase, you won't see Alex, so that +1 match for Brazil B is for another match, but that match is against Catalonia, i.e. not a proper national team, so it can be "disqualified". Then oGol includes 3 matches (11v11 only two of those 3) in the 2003 CONCACAF Gold Cup, but WP has yet another Alex in the squad, and this is in agreement with match reports (two from CONCACAF and one from WorldFootball): Alex Rodrigo --> Mexico 1–0 Brazil --> Brazil 2–1 Honduras --> Colombia 0–2 Brazil (here it's a link from WorldFootball). In addition, those matches aren't in NFT. Then the first page of oGol for Brazil (his last 20 matches for Brazil) is in agreement with NFT, even though 11v11 is missing several matches (doesn't have them at all).
Thus, so far we have 3 matches fewer for Brazil, 2 matches fewer for Cruzeiro, so 997 instead of 1,002.
Regards,
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 15:32, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
Regarding that third match in which he is listed on oGol, but not in Cruzeiropedia, I couldn't find something to either confirm the former or the latter (in videos, news, databases, photos, et c.), but I found out he can't have won the trophies the English WP had him credited with, since he doesn't appear to have been on the selections and I didn't find any matches for Brazil U17, so I think it's conclusive we shouldn't add him on the list, do you agree?
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 17:58, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
Hello!
Of course, I'll have it in mind if other info appears...
Regards,
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 13:08, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
Robbie James edit
Hello!
Yes, you are right, but I am thinking he has a couple of games played more, based on this, which is based on references from books and so, unfortunately, we cannot verify it. Now, I couldn't find 68 somewhere as a total online (neither 66 though), but it is likely he played 2 more matches because there are a couple of other Welsh cup competitions he could have played, because the lists of matches only include the Welsh Cup from the Welsh competitions (there are also some league competitions in the South Wales, but Cardiff City wasn't participating in those then, unless we are talking about the second team) or he could easily have amassed 2 more matches with the B or C team or there are matches from playoffs not included, as playoffs are usually being omitted from lists and databases (for comparison/statistics reasons), and here must be also said that I have checked for whether there are friendlies included in those 68, but I doubt it because the other players in the list don't have friendlies (of course I am talking only about those players whose numbers can be verified elsewhere). In addition, regarding his 2nd year in Cardiff City, he was until December on the team and appears he played last on October 2, so maybe he was in the B team for 2 months and played twice there. So, I would suggest making it 68 with the book references as in the WP article, plus those from Cardiff City's forum. What do you say?
Kind regards,
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 19:35, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
Hello!
When there is a total coming from the official website of the club it refers to or a book about that club (where there was obviously a research done), I prefer not to add a plus sign next to that total, even though, regarding the situation (in this case Welsh competitions), there are big possibilities matches to be missing from the total, and, in case other matches appear lately, obviously the total will be changed accordingly. Regarding players who played for Welsh clubs, and mainly after searching stats for Hutchison, I came to understanding that most likely there are matches in Welsh competitions other than Welsh Cup not recorded or not counted to the tally. For instance, Robbie James has 553 matches and 130 goals in other than the Welsh competitions for Swansea City, but Swansea gives a total of 593 matches (149 goals), i.e. 40 matches more, which is plus the Welsh competitions: he played in 14 seasons for Swansea at the peak years of his career, so that makes it fewer than +3 matches on average (14*3=42) per season, where he won 4 Welsh Cup (in total he won 5, including the one with Cardiff), and you can easily understand that probably there are more than +3 on average matches every season, even if only the Welsh Cup is included (where he definitely played in the majority, if not all, matches of the ones the club played there, where Swansea won the final four times and, as one of the top Welsh clubs, in the other seasons surely went far, i.e. the club probably played on average more than 3 matches per season in the Welsh Cup alone, let other Welsh competitions), as most likely those +40 are only the Welsh Cup numbers, but I prefer not having the plus to the total, which could mean, better said could be perceived easily as, inadequacy, and there are cases where we may never find out the more matches, even if more matches exist, because it appears official numbers in regional competitions (because the ones in question are the regional numbers) to have never been recorded. However, if extra matches appear, of course we can proceed in changing the plus-less total. So, that said, in this case I would suggest 68 instead of 68+, even though having more matches has big possibilities.
Regarding his numbers for Barry Town, you can download the 1994–95 season's file here (xls format), which is coming from Pitchero, which is equivalent to an official website for the club, where you can see 38 matches, so +6 to 32. What do you say?
Kind regards,
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 16:27, 14 May 2022 (UTC)
Robert Carmona – most official appearances edit
Hello!
Robert Carmona, who has been re-recognized recently by Guinness World Records as the currently oldest active footballer (Isaak Hayik is older, but apparently isn't currently active), has been also reported to have made around 2,200 official matches. Some other sources: Marca, SportsJoe, Joe. The clubs he has played can be seen in here (until 2020), and some other missing from there perhaps can be seen in his FootballDatabase profile. The most recent relative article is most likely this where you can see relative info, and info about clubs played until now. Should he be added to the list with the most official appearances? Even though he has played mainly in lower leagues, there are professional clubs there, but there is a lack of statistics/details, which makes me believe that he should be added only in the intro and trivia of the article, until there is reliable info showing the number of matches per club. What do you think?
Kind regards,
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 17:37, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
Kazuyoshi Miura edit
Hello!
If we consider his WP's clubs' stats to be correct, apparently based on books (seems to be a magazine actually) and so cannot unfortunately be verified, then he has 14 more, than what oGol gives, matches for Tokyo Verdy (253 in WP, 239 in oGol – Yomiuri is included in the count), and then has reached at least 1,000 matches (1,002). So my question is: should we trust the refs his bio article has for supporting 253 as the total and be added in the list with the most official appearances? Or should we find first an additional ref for that? By the way, an article or document that has Tokyo Verdy's players by appearances would be ideal as well (but I am failing to find one).
To clarify: oGol, based on NFT, doesn't include at least (could be more, as NFT usually only includes league matches) 30 matches (25 for Palmeiras, 5 for Matsubara), and also 2 for Japan B (based on FootballDatabase and RSSSF), which make a total of 988 (956+32) – 956 from oGol and not 958, which includes 2 matches for Japan's national futsal team. Additionally, FootballDatabase gives one more match for Japan A, but this doesn't agree with RSSSF and, most importantly, neither agrees with J-Football – apparently, that extra one included in FootballDatabase has to be the one made for the, obviously unofficial, Japan/South Korea team.
P.S. In addition, based on his stats on WP, there is an additional match for Genoa (which would make the total 1,003), as it includes 23 instead of 22, but this is definitely baseless, and of course requires finding a reliable reference proof first: if it happened, which is what I believe (assuming good faith), we are looking either for a short-lived cup/league (most likely in Italy, but it could also be in Europe or even of greater range) or a play-off/play-out/preliminary round match or a match with the Genoa's B team.
Kind regards,
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 18:54, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
Hello!
Yes, you are right, I had also seen this, but seems temporarily had forgotten to mention it; it was actually the reason why I hadn't put him for discussion before (it's more than a month now that I noticed he probably had reached at least 1,000 matches and also had seen him being added to the Portuguese corresponding article).
However, while Verdazzo is thorough and Kirin Cup is friendly (even though I cannot exclude having some Japanese and Brazilian clubs considering it official, even some corresponding associations from those countries), I have found this from IFFHS, which also has 25 matches for Palmeiras (and, by the way, 23 matches for Genoa), and, coming from IFFHS, it has to be 25; maybe it's Palmeiras B/Reserves team matches, what do you think? IFFHS, usually publishing articles about top level (if you ask me, in weird categorizations, so to boost the records of people of their likes, like CR7 and Messi), they usually have criteria to exclude matches, and not include, and they are the site most affiliated with FIFA, so that 25 must have some basis (the 23 for Genoa they show backs perfectly the total WP has for Genoa in the clubs' stats table).
So, to sum up: I support 25 for Palmeiras, which is anymore backed not only by NFT but also by IFFHS, and 23 for Genoa (+1 to what oGol has, as being also a number backed by IFFHS and considering it agrees with what his WP bio article has, i.e. there apparently was a reason to show 23 and not 22; being +1 on the league, and because I am a bit retarded (just noticed "Serie A Play-off" in the table's notes), it's obviously about a playoff match oGol missed. So, my question was, is and still remains more if you consider the magazine refs WP has in his bio article good enough to claim a total of 253 for Tokyo Verdy or if you think we should seek for more refs for verification of that total number. By the way, I highly doubt WP includes friendlies in those 253, because there are no mistakes in the other numbers of the table, and as 14 friendlies (could be 12)[Note 0] in 9 seasons is too few, and I also see like 3 or 4 tournaments in the note b) that oGol may be missing, including the Super Cup (football DBs often miss matches in Super Cups); noteworthy, however, is that among them is Sanwa Bank Cup, which reads "unofficial" in WP (being also under friendly tournaments in RSSSF)), but again I'd say it's possible to have official status in Japan; in any way, even if he played in 2 matches there, as 2 is the max, and we exclude those as of doubtful status, he would still have 1,001.
[Note 0] P.S. I just noticed oGol shows two more matches now (it has 960 as the total instead of 958), 2 more matches that definitely aren't for Suzuka Point Getters (6 was the number of matches there before the change in the total), which needs looking; by my first sights, seeing they still don't show anything on Palmeiras and Matsubara, I guess they have added 2 more matches for Tokyo Verdy, but haven't counted to verify this yet.
Kind regards,
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 02:40, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
Just adding that I again counted 239 matches total in oGol for Tokyo Verdy, so the 2 matches added there are elsewhere, hence, even if exclude the matches in Sanwa Bank Cup (where he played once or twice, if he played in both years), there would still be a total of 1,003.
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 02:52, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
Hello!
I don't know why NFT has Serie A next to Palmeiras, but that is also the rank, and, since they have Palmeiras and not Palmeiras B, they probably ought to add the rank of Palmeiras in Serie A, no? However, I think that is not important, but my issue here is this, which says there was no Palmeiras B back then, so those 25 matches must be coming from cups and tournaments missing from oGol, or one that were given official status, at least by FIFA (since they are on IFFHS).
Perhaps AcervoSantista is missing cup matches? Remember, Brazilian clubs have many leagues and cups (several regional cups) that he could have easily amassed one more match, which AceroSantista could easily not be including.
Nonetheless, I have to say it isn't definitely unlikely at all some matches in friendly tournaments to have been given official status by the club or country's FA (Brazil or Japan); remember there was no distinction of friendlies back then, both in the 1980-1990 decade and definitely at least at the early years of 1990-2000 decade, for both Brazil and Japan, and, also, I think we should follow what football DBs and statistical sites give, both for consistency with the other footballers in the list, because those sources are vastly used as reliable and because, as I have stated before, those specific years when all football matches meant the same shouldn't be separated (in all honesty, matches against foreign opponents of "big names" in "friendly" tournaments back then were in fact more competitive than the official against local/country's opponents). Finally, in most cases, with very small exceptions, the statistical organizations, IFFHS and RSSSF, embrace what the country FAs acknowledge as official and FIFA embraces the ones the statistical organizations give as official.
P.S. IFFHS have very strict criteria about what matches they consider as A level and worthy of mention, and they usually, unfortunately, recognize only few matches in Brazilian leagues; if you see closely, the majority of the matches missing are from clubs in Brazil: also, a must mention here is that they also have 253 for Tokyo Verdy (241 Verdy Kawasaki + 12 Yomiuri Tōkyō), which perfectly backs the 253 of WP, and maybe we already had the extra ref we were looking. What do you say about this?
In addition, that IFFHS' article is only about his numbers in what they consider top level, as explained in the body of the article; so, apart from the matches in Brazil they don't consider to be top level, which seem to be many, they also don't include the J2 league matches (that is at least 249 more matches; he had 249 in J2 from 1992 until 11/1/2022 (the data previous to 1992 is not shown in the site of Yokohama FC), so 666+249=915, then 915 + 2 Japan B = 917, with the rest missing must be the majority in Brazil), and anything else from Japanese tournaments not being top level according to them, which explains why they only have 666 as total (it is that, or the statistician who wrote it is an avid metal brother \m/ 😊).
Kind regards,
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 06:04, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
Kazuyoshi Miura the Sequel edit
Hello!
– Santos
- Season 1986–87: I agree with the 3 appearances.
- Season 1990: yes for 11 + 18 = 29; now, about the extra 7 matches in Paulista: have you checked thoroughly the matches of 1990 in Acervo Santista and you found him in a total of 25 for Paulista? If so, then I agree with 36 here, so a total of 39 for Santos.
By the way, a bit of history: it doesn't surprise me at all that oGol doesn't have Série A matches: I would actually expect it to have none at all back then, i.e. it's actually suprising me they even include matches from his days in Brazil, and expected it to be like FootballDatabase – it's not random WP doesn't include them; Kazu definitely became known to the mean football fan only in the last 4-5 years, and that for having played after reaching 50 years (and for continuing to do so); he was unknown before to the majority, and only known to Japanese people, Brazilians and hardcore fans for his time in Japan (from them who keenly watch/watched international football) as the time he played football in Japan (J1, not J2, which J2 is in the 2005-2019) were actually the beginnings of Japanese football and something not shown worldwide, and, while his time in Brazil were at a time Brazilian leagues were very strong (I am including Série B as well), there was no cover of them around the world then; remember that the internet was discovered only in 1991 and until 2008 a computer/internet didn't have a commercial status, which it got between 2008-2010, before only rich people could afford it and the rest could only do so via net cafés (era 2000-2008); nowadays, you can buy a decent laptop with 200 euros (before 2008 the cheapest value was around 2000 euros), and of course even them who could afford watching him playing football in Brazil they would barely pay attention to a Japanese player. I was surprised with Zé Roberto, who played in Real and Bayern, missing matches in 1994+, a decade later, but not about Miura's, for the reasons stated before.
– Curitiba
- Yes, 59, based on oGol; by the way, that's a normal number for playing 2 years in a Brazilian club, and could have easily been more. Also, I am pretty sure those "Sem Competição Definida" are from cups, which can be the case for the other Brazilian clubs as well; e.g., as one of its youngest players, did he not play at least once in one of the many cups they play with the shirt of Santos, as for Santos we are only finding league matches?
– Palmeiras
- Yes, it's the one we discussed before; it's definitely very shady, and I would agree with you there most likely are some matches in friendly tournaments/cups given official status here, since there was no Palmeiras B back then, but, it's not only that NFT has it, as it usually happens, but that this is also again backed by IFFHS; I am pretty sure IFFHS has made their research to reach to that number, which is a very strict organization. Nonetheless, if there are numbers they have wrongly included, I am pretty sure those will be corrected in their later publications; remember Miura still plays football and, having made such an article, I would say it's like 99.99% expected to make another one (update) when he retires, at least for the total of their "A level" matches. So, we include 25, which would be perfectly referenced by generally trusted sources, and act accordingly to future updates?
– CRB Maceió (AL)
- The level of the matches played here needs looking; it's kinda typical for Brazil's leagues to often have "schisms" (I even recall reading once about a season where three different Série A were played simultaneously, but I am forgetting the year/season), and I would say that it also often happens for good reasons (one of the vastest countries of the world with maybe thousands of clubs is prone to arguments among some of them, especially at times when even organizing a country league was a challenge, e.g. some "schisms" have been made, from what I recall, because some clubs were given money for transportation and others not – good reason to "defect" from CBF), however it's not only that most not organized by CBF leagues get retrospectively recognized, which is what usually happens, but, also, most importantly, what counts is the way those extra leagues organized by the "defectors" were competed; if we are talking about matches played under rules and regulations of official matches (of course, only talking about what rules and regulations were then in vigor for considering a match as official in Brazil), e.g. the number of available changes a team can make before the match becomes unofficial, the corresponding level of the referees, the stands of the field – based on the level playing, there is a limit of seat (for instance, in many countries you can't have a stadium of 400 people capacity, just a number out of my mind as an example, and play in the top tier, which is why often small clubs promoted playing in other than their own pitch), et c., then I am under the impression it would totally be negligence to not consider those matches, regardless of CBF not having (yet) recognized them; they will just be included with an explanation note. In addition, I am not sure if what's written on the WP article about 1987 Série B league stands correct at the moment, as it has a ref an archived, apparently a dead link, of 2011 (11 years ago was archived, so the publication is at least 11 years old), and we definitely need to find a newer one to check if that info is still accurate; it isn't unlikely even the status to have changed, but, as I said, I would have included them even if it hasn't, with a note explaining CBF hasn't recognized them yet. Tell me if you agree or not. By the way, for starters, there must be a reason that oGol is including it.
– CA Juventus (SP) – Clube Atlético Juventus
- Now I would like to throw on the table also the Brazilian Juventus which he appears to be in 1985 in NFT and then Santos is one year later (according to his FootballDatabase profile, it's XV de Jaú there, but there are many other references on the net which support Juventus instead): I was thinking that he should have played official matches there, not only because he was 17-19 years old, which it isn't like he was 13, but because he was transferred to Santos; is it possible Santos, one of the biggest clubs in Brazil, to have bought him without seeing him playing in official matches before? So I tried searching for matches there, and, even though I haven't yet found (still my search is though in a preliminary round), I did find this, where we learn it's about a second division club, which could become useful later, and from NFT we have "Campeonato Paulista (3. League)" (so that would be a Paulista 3 league for the state league, no?), and then found also this, which says that he played there in four "temporadas": "Su primer equipo fue el Clube Atlético Juventus Sao Paulo en el que permaneció durante cuatro temporadas.", which I guess it probably included something like Apertura & Clausura in the year or it's considering the regional/state league (which usually is played on different time period than the country's league) as a different temporada, i.e. I consider that we will most likely find matches there as well. Perhaps you know some fan-based site like Acervo Santista or Verdazzo about that Juventus as well? P.S. Being a "sudista", my "field", unfortunately, includes more the closely named Juventude, and I had actually known the Brazilian Juventus only by name; probably found it in a cup match and then remembered the name due to Italy's Juventus.
Kind regards,
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 19:50, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
Hello again!
Just wanted to add that, taken into account how long his career has been and how regular he had been as a player, at least for the clubs he played in many seasons, even if it's possible for some clubs the actual total number to be of a bit more matches or of a bit fewer matches, I think the number (which has become 1,024+ now, if I calculated correctly, as it was a quick calculation – the plus sign was added for CA Juventus, if we consider he played there, after finding refs supporting this) we are getting as a total makes sense, i.e. I believe it approaches what must be the actual number.
Kind regards,
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 20:08, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
Hello!
– Curitiba
Just adding that the official site of the club gives on an article 44 as his total; the 21 verified by IFFHS were in Série A, and gives 23 as the rest; for cups and the Campeonato Paranaense, however I am having the sense something is missing, a sense of uncertainty, as it's on an article and not backed by stats, and because I am assuming good faith in oGol, I am thinking they could be referring only to his league matches (i.e. 21 for Série A + 23 for Campeonato Paranaense), and I would definitely like to see more relative references. By the way, the only other article he is mentioned on their site is this (about winning the Campeonato Paranaense in 1989).
Kind regards,
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 23:44, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
However, COXAnautas shows 7 goals in 59 matches.
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 00:50, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
Hello!
Just summarizing the points that are "shady" to make it easier:
- 253 Tokyo Verdy, as we concluded
- 23 Genoa, as we concluded
- 39 Santos, if you verified 25 for Paulista in 1990
- 59 Curitiba (perhaps a note of the article of their site that has 44 and COXAnautas' article; it isn't unlikely at all to even be 59 in total, of which only 44 are official and the rest were in friendlies, but it isn't unlikely to be 59 official either; needs further sources to be clear)
- 25 Palmeiras, with a note having that Verdazzo claims only 3 and those in friendlies (Kirin Cup) and also with this ref on the note
- 4 CRB Maceió, with a note CBF hasn't recognized the Série B played then, if they haven't; still needs looking, as well as the level the matches were performed, i.e. if they abided by the criteria of official then matches
- ? CA Juventus (SP) – needs looking; if we find no info of matches, I suggest leaving a question mark
- ? Japan's younger national teams – it isn't unlikely to have also made appearances for the younger national teams of Japan; needs looking in the archived pages of the now dead JFootball
P.S. My main concern here is the 25 of Palmeiras: NFT, like the pope, makes mistakes, even though good faith and logic-reason is assumed, i.e. there must be a document where that 25 is coming, and of course I cannot exclude IFFHS copying NFT, but I like to believe that IFFHS (the site affiliated the most with FIFA), as a statistical organization and as an organization with strict criteria, does verify the numbers they publish from other sources as well (including FAs, league's organizers, et c.). In any way, we will cover the possibility of being wrong by adding the note about what the sites of Palmeiras give; this is probably the reason oGol has none – however, I have to also note that the news article in the site of Palmeiras could as well be wrong by being based on what Verdazzo has. The rest "shady" numbers don't concern me so much as that, to be honest, and of course there is a very thin line between friendly and official in the years he played football in those clubs.
Do you agree with this summary?
Kind regards,
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 16:45, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
The latest addition (so to be easier to access) edit
Hello!
- Santos
– Yes, I will also check it later, for an extra count/additional pair of eyes, but I believe you, and yes, it's +6 anymore since oGol has apparently increased the total by one: plus, I am adding here that I just realized their previous changes (the +2 matches two days ago) were also for Santos, as I just remembered it having 16 before on the season instead of 19, also the only archived link of the page on 29/10/2020 gives 11 for Santos on the season back then and the changes since then are: +13 matches played since then (7 Yokohama and 6 Suzuka), + 1 Japan's futsal team (it only had total 1 then), + 8 for Santos on the season we are talking about: 939+13+1+8=961 (what oGol shows now), which shows their changes on stats about his old stats have only been about Santos in the latest years (some time in 2020 until now).
– AcervoSantos giving 35 matches instead of 39 should also be mentioned/included in the note.
- Curitiba
– Yes, of course we could also include that site as well in the note.
- Palmeiras
– Futebol80 is a trusted site, and it could also be included in the note about Palmeiras.
- CRB Maceió
– Yes, that page from RSSSF would suffice as a ref in the according note for me... or do you think we need also another one?
- Japan's younger national teams
– Him playing for the highest age level of Japan since 1990 (at 22-23 years old, which is a big age to make your debut for the top age level NT) makes it very possible having previously played for younger national teams and I would also add here that, while Japan is a very proud "nationalistically" (if such a word exists) country (they historically have been considered the Germany of Asia, due to the history in Asia; no offense meant here with this and no judgement, the past is the past, and we are only talking about football stats), at least in their football they have actually shown a more "international" attitude, so I would say it makes more sense being called up for younger national teams for the same reason, i.e. for playing abroad, more than not being called up for not playing in Japan. Of course, I will search for possible matches for Under-X Japan, as well as for CA Juventus (SP).
P.S. I
– Yes, I am reading he was loaned to play in friendlies, and apparently there was no Palmeiras B, also I think that most likely Verdazzo (a thorough site) would include the other friendlies for Palmeiras (Palmerias senior), if other than the 3 matches he played for Kirin Cup were played, so makes sense those 25 matches to have been for an U23 or U21 or U20 team. I don't know which is the structure of youth teams in Brazil, but they do have an U-20 team, however we definitely need to look if a Palmeiras U23/U21/U20 existed back then, but in any way IFFHS backs NFT and gives power to the number of 25 matches there, even though I have to agree that this is the most mysterious and shady of all; the actual number for the rest "shady" ones has to be más o menos ("more or less" in English?) the numbers we have concluded.
P.S. II
– The stats about Dinamo Zagreb, Kyoto Sanga, Vissel Kobe and Sydney can be also verified from IFFHS.
– Regarding Yokohama, I get 287 from this (Yokohama's site) in J1, J2 and J League Cup + 2 Emperor's Cup in 2019 + 2 in 2018 + 1 in 2016 + 2 in 2008 + 2 in 2007 = 296, in year 2005 he has 37 matches on oGol, which are stats of 3 clubs, of which 18 are for Vissel Kobe (can be verified by Yokohama's site), so 19 availabe for Yokohama, but 2 in Mundial de Clubes are for Sydney, so 17 for Yokohama: 16 J2 league (counted and verified via Yokohama's site) + 1 in Emperor's Cup, hence 296+1=297, and then in 2010 oGol gives 31 matches, but without details, though 30 are J2 league based on the site of Yokohama, so 1 must be in Emperor's Cup, which would make the total 298, and is the only one that needs to be checked, or perhaps not, because it can be verified calculating it from another angle: we have 287 from Yokohama's site, of which 9 are in league cup and the rest in leagues, so 278 in leagues, then + 17 in cups from IFFHS = 295 until 13 March 2021, and he played 3 times since then, so 298 can be totally verified.
– Regarding Suzuka Point Getters, I don't think there must be a mistake or dispute about the 6 matches in J4, of which also details exist; based on Goal, he also appears in one match against Yokohama for Emperor's Cup, but he is not in the lineups on BeSoccer, and they have other matches as well later (in June), but without match details and none of them being in oGol yet; taken into account that Goal doesn't seem reliable, judging from the cup match mentioned previously, I would say there aren't others or maybe there are but haven't been included yet in oGoal, which has matches until May. So, to sum up, there are at least 6 here.
P.S. III
Curitiba – The corresponding Portuguese article gives 69 for Curitiba instead of 59, but, as, we found out, there doesn't appear to be a basis about this; maybe it's a typo (69 instead of 59) or it could be 59 official and 10 friendlies included perhaps?
Sydney – The Portuguese WP article also gives 7 matches for Sydney FC instead of 6, for which I will try searching for perhaps a game oGol is missing; from IFFHS' page, we know he did play in 6 top-level matches for Sydney, so we are looking for 1 more match with the B team of Sydney perhaps or in a regional tournament not given top-level status or an U23/U21/U20 Sydney team that allows overage players?
P.S. IV
– I haven't yet checked about the info in the last addition you made on the comment.
Kind regards,
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 00:37, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
11 for Santos edit
Hello!
I wouldn't exclude being likely that those 11 to actually not have been all for Série A, but only some of them, and the rest on friendlies given official A-level status, or even all being in friendlies, but, being both on NFT and IFFHS, there is definitely good enough support for claiming these 11 all as official.
Kind regards,
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 23:37, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
Update edit
Hello!
Regarding Suzuka Point Getters, he has played in 6 matches and no more, as he had been injured since 15/5, and he is still in therapy; see news here and here (archived links because the site doesn't allow viewing from Europe).
Regarding Yokohama, just adding that even the unreliable Transfermarkt also has 298, with an Emperor's Cup match in 2011, and, while it shows 5 in the menu on the right for Suzuka, you can see 6 in the matches list.
P.S. Nothing about having more matches about Curitiba found, nothing about playing one more match for Sydney either, and nothing about younger national teams of Japan of U17 and U23 (while there are a couple of matches with no details archived in JFootball, I doubt he played there), however it's still likely to have played for Japan U20, for which there are no match details in JFootball.
Kind regards,
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 02:01, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
2010 was a typo edit
Hello!
- Japan x-U
– Regarding Japan's U20, I found nothing elsewhere in an extensive search, so I have concluded he didn't make any appearance for any of the U-x Japan national team.
- CA Juventus
– It's likely he didn't play for CA Juventus either, at least in a match of the kinds we include, as the majority of the articles around agree he started there, but made his first professional contract in Santos, i.e. he may have played only in the youth levels of the club. Also, that club was in the second division (Brasileirão Série B), so I think it would be known if he had played matches there (we do find Série B matches mentioned, e.g. like we did for CRB Maceió). However, if he played, I believe the only matches he may have played for that club would be in Paulistão A3 (that's what NFT is giving for the club in 1985). In addition, having played in 4 years there (since 1982), but from NFT having only 1985, we can assume there is at least one match played in A3, which is why NFT is mentioning it, otherwise why include the year? Though, I doubt we will find any source about this (Paulista A3 in 1985 is extremely hard to be found), unless we find a very thorough fan-based site about CA Juventus, but that club is apparently not that known so to have such a site, or at least I couldn't locate one.
– Some examples of articles here, here, and here (where it says he started his career in 1982 for XV de Jaú, maybe a mistake or passed there as well initially).
– Conclusion: in 1982–1986 he played only in Paulista A3 in 1985, but I doubt we will find a ref about how many times he played, so the club listed with a question mark.
- Yokohama
– 2010 was indeed a typo; the cup match in 2011 is this (BeSoccer page with lineups).
- Sydney
– 2005 A-League Pre-Season Challenge Cup has lineups (in WorldFootball) of the matches played, and he isn't on any, plus those matches were played before he was loaned there, and the version of 2006 doesn't have lineups (even though I am guessing these matches have to also be in WorldFootball), but these matches were played after he had returned to Japan, so he couldn't have played in matches of an A-League Pre-Season Challenge Cup. So, I guess that +1 has to be in a friendly.
- CRB Maceió
– Yes, another source would be a good idea, especially perhaps one in Portuguese from a Brazilian site.
- Santos
– Yes, of course, I agree. Besides, adding that AcervoSantos gives a total of 35 of which 9 are friendlies would be more complete.
Kind regards!
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 04:10, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
Matsubara, XV de Jaú & CRB edit
Hello!
Apart from Maceió, I would like to also bring into debate Matsubara and XV de Jaú, these two clubs he played which are the only ones we haven't discussed yet.
- XV de Jaú
– What is the number of matches you are getting for XV? While both oGol and NFT have 25 (2), oGol has 14 in Série A (with match details) and 11 as "Sem Competição Definida", with NFT having 25 (2) in Paulista 3, so, assuming those without competition defined being in Paulista, we have 39 total or do you think it should be 50?
- Matsubara
– Regarding Matsubara, based on NFT, he appears in 1987–88 with 5 matches for Paranaense 3, but WorldFootball shows 1986, so I also searched for matches in 1986 and found out Matsubara played in something called Torneio Brasil Sul de 1986 (Portuguese article), a tournament they won, which isn't included in RSSSF's friendly tournaments, and neither found an indication somewhere of it being friendly, where Kazu definitely played there (see this), so, if those matches it included were all the matches Matsubara played, he could have played in between 1 and 10 matches, but without proof of how many not even one can be included or perhaps only one can be included? What do you say? (most likely he played in most matches there, if not all) Do you perhaps know a source for that tournament that includes lineups?
– Having two records in oGol (also including 1986) and with Transfermarkt (unreliable site, but often reliable for transfer dates) having a period of 1986–87, I give credits to both years, i.e. he played both in 1986 and 1987; I also guess that even if the time had not been continuous (i.e. WorldFootball being right he returned to 1986), it is likely he returned there in 1987 (the two records on oGol could mean/maybe means a second contract after the expiration of the first) and in general I've come to the conclusion during his time in Brazil, which is unclear/obscure for the majority of the clubs, it's likely he went and returned more than once for many clubs (sometimes without contracts, because the time he played football in Brazil such things were often, e.g. being called only to play in friendlies as he happened to be nearby).
- CRB Maceió (AL)
Here oGol, without details, agrees with NFT in the number 4 in 1987; NFT has the 4 we discussed before, but I wouldn't exclude the possibility of having played more matches. As you are often aware of fan-based sites, do you perhaps know any site affiliated with this club where we could look for statistics or matches played back then?
P.S. Even though there are variances in the number of matches for almost all the Brazilian clubs he played (between articles, DBs, affiliated with the club sites et c.), I would like to say there aren't any unusual total numbers for the ones we are getting for the Brazilian clubs, and, while it's likely there are some friendlies included in some (as well as for some clubs official matches may be missing; a good example here is Torneio Brasil Sul), since we have the back-up from NFT/IFFHS/oGol, we can add him, but of course with the according necessary notes, and I must say, from what I've seen, I believe the actual number to have passed 1,000 official matches.
Awaiting your reply...
Kind regards!
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 03:57, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
The Latest edit
Hello!
Sorry for the delay to respond, I've been looking for additional matches and for info to cover the "shady" numbers we have for the Brazilian clubs.
- XV de Jaú
– Yes, you are right... I had just clicked on the year for XV and noticed there were match details, but didn't really check them, or I would have noticed it was about Curitiba, so I totally agree here with 25 (2) for XV. Moreover, XV played in 1988 in Série C, but at that period Kazu was in Curitiba, and there was no national cup played before 1989, neither this club appears in any of the cups played in 1987–88 (without though excluding RSSSFBrasil to be missing state or interstate cup tournaments). If he played elsewhere than Paulista, it's only this (Copa São Paulo Junior 1988, which then was an U-21 tournament) and this (the club named XV de Novembro there), but I doubt if we will find info about lineups for the matches played in them (for instance, with the limitations I have, i.e. I can't search old Brazilian newspapers, and taken into account the info that's been digitized, I can only find info about the lineups of the final of the Copa São Paulo Junior 1988, and XV wasn't in the final). By the way, football DBs (NFT, oGol, et c.) do include such tournaments (not only U21, but also U23, U22, U20 and U19) and fairly because those are senior level and equivalent to Reserves/B or C team matches. I am also excluding this because it was after having become professional, based on this, and it would be weird if he played there. Probably if the info had been available to be found in the WWW, they would have been added, so I would say 25+ (2+) matches here.
- Matsubara
– Yes, because the eleven (+3 substitutes) players for Matsubara appearing there seem to be taken from a match (probably the last match played, which gave them the trophy), I would say that we can claim him playing there at least once, so I would suggest 6+ matches for Matsubara. Most likely he played in the majority of those 10 matches showed (no idea if there were more), like the majority of the players there (wouldn't be a surprise at all if in total for Matsubara played 14-18 players – having only found as relative info the matches of Figueirense there, in which 18 players played, most likely the clubs didn't feature more than 18 players), but we cannot claim more than one matches without extra back-up, however we can say he definitely played in one. In addition, Google searches find Google Books parts of Placar Magazine, but there are only match results there and no lineups. Now, there are 2 other tournaments I found that he could have played matches for Matsubara: 1st) Taça São Paulo de Futebol Junior 1986 (which in WP appears as Copa, but it's the same tournament), where I found, from AcervoSantista, that he actually played there but for Santos – that's an U21 tournament and Santos U21 is equivalent to a B/Reserves team, so it should be four more matches for Santos in 1986 (WP article of the season), and 2nd) Campeonato Paranaense de Juniores, which Matsubara dominated in 1985–1988 (by the way, the champions of 1988 were Coritiba, where he could have played with in 1988, when he was 20-21 years old), a tournament I cannot find info about in WP or RSSSFBrasil, unless it's the one called Copa Tribuna (there are some other junior and state tournaments/cups he could have played for, 1985–1988 years, but I don't think we will find info about). One noteworthy is Torneio Inicio played in 1986 where Santos, XV de Jaú and Juventus played, with the last one winning that (he could have played there with any of the three clubs); they also won the Copa São Paulo de Futebol Júnior de 1985 (the year that appears in NFT, which could be + matches if he played there – you can see the lineups of the final in their site here, as well as a photo, and he doesn't appear being, at least in the final, neither in the match against Santos).
– Link for Matsubara in História do Futebol.
– Also, for the record, Torneio Brasil Sul was organized by the CBF.
– So, bottom line here, I think we could go with 6+ (1+) for Matsubara.
- Santos
– As explained above (under Matsubara), it should be +4 matches in 1986 for the club.
- CRB
– He is credited with winning Alagoano in 1987, where he played between 01/1987 – 06/1987 based on WorldFootball and the whole year of 1987 based on Transfermarkt, which isn't unlikely at all, but anyway the only tournament, apart from the White Module, found he could have played here is Alagoano 1987, where he definitely didn't play in the final, but what about the previous matches? I have found this article which has different explanation of the time/how many days he played there, and also states he didn't play in the Alagoano, from the local news, which I think is good enough to conclude he played only 4 times there.
P.S. In this article says he played 0 matches for CRB and didn't play for Santos in the Série A in 1990, but I believe they are missing context (like the one about the "Série B 1987") and matches in Juniores (U20 or U21), and I have an idea about the "shady" matches of 25 for Palmeiras in 1986–87 and 11 for Santos in 1990 in Série A, which NFT and IFFHS have but don't appear in affiliated and official sites of the clubs; if those matches were played in a Série A de Juniores, it would make perfectly sense to be missing from the clubs' sites which mention only A team matches and at the same time would make perfectly sense those to be in NFT (which, as we have discussed before, it includes matches of the kind, and fairly I would say); based on RSSSFBrasil, such a tournament started/was played in the 2000s, as well as by WP, but I was thinking that it wouldn't make sense previously having as early as 70s and 80s state leagues of the kind and not having a national league of the kind, and, while I find many citations about a state league of Juniores (e.g. Botafogo/Rio de Janeiro, and a Carioca for juniores since 1920!!!), I find it hard locating one such citation for an according national league, however I did find THIS: 1983 – Vice-campeão Campeonato Brasileiro de Juniores, which is why I think it existed back then, apparently not from CBF, but from some other organization, perhaps a local/state one or an interstates one or one that was created for that reason, but one that hasn't digitized the records it kept, though NFT/IFFHS that gather documents that don't exist in the digital world or not in public (e.g. via emails) are expected to know and a Série A de Juniores, even though age-limited, is top-level. Acervo Santista only has Copa São Paulo de Futebol Júnior, but it would make sense not having info, like no other club-related sites seems to not do as well; a football DB like NFT and a statistical organization like IFFHS may retract documents directly from CBF and all other relative FAs.
Awaiting your feedback...
Kind regards!
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 06:13, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
The Latest 2 edit
Hello!
Yes, of course we can include in their according notes that it's possible those appearances to have been with the Juniores/U21 team in a Série A de Juniores, which is why it would make sense not being found in the club's site, but being found in NFT/IFFHS.
Kind regards,
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 22:10, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
Dinamo Zagreb edit
Hello!
Just for the record, Kazuyoshi Miura played only in 12 league matches for Dinamo Zagreb; when he went there Dinamo Zagreb had already been disqualified from Europe and the national cup, where, even though had won the previous year, they went home early after losing in the first round to a 4th division club.
Kind regards,
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 11:10, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
XV de Jaú in 1985 edit
Hello!
XV de Jaú in 1985 and not CA Juventus there seemed weird in FootballDatabase, but then I found this (Paulista) and this (Copa São Paulo de Futebol Júnior de 1985, which CA Juventus won), and he doesn't appear in the 2nd match, which is +2 matches for the club in 1985, do you agree? Also, not only he played for XV back then, but he also went on a tour in Japan with the club, based on this (unfortunately, WordPress site). Perhaps you know any site where we could find more matches with lineups for Paulista 1985 or Copa São Paulo de Futebol Júnior de 1985? By the way, do you think we could use Gremiopedia as a reliable reference? I, for one, have no problem with that, when it comes with extra proof, which in this case does; in the section Publicações includes this.
_-_Folha_S.Paulo.png){kind=link}
Some other info here, even though from non-reliable sites; here (CulturaJaponesa) says he started with Jaú in 1985 and in a comment here (Facebook) someone says that his first professional match was the Palmeiras vs. XV de Jaú (2–3) found above.
Kind regards,
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 16:13, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
+ some (more) reliable sources edit
A reliable source here (from news) talking about the tour of the club in Japan in 1984, and also reliable sources mentioning him playing in 1985 against Palmeiras: esportes, match report on futebol80, and esportesmais, for which I believe it's his first professional match.
Awaiting your feedback/opinion about those two additional matches that appeared...
Kind regards,
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 16:40, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
Hello!
Yes, you are right, that was a mistake, as I thought it was the 2nd match of the leg, as I had considered it was the next match/2nd leg from the menu it has; didn't notice the year at all, but had thought the "Jogo anterior e posterior" meant the menu of the matches played in the Copa São Paulo de Futebol Júnior de 1985.
Well, regarding CA Juventus: first, he was in that club in the years 1982–1986, as there are many sources supporting this, but apparently not continuously, as he had passed, as we saw, either loaned or even probably played in some other temporary basis form I would say, e.g. like an oral contract, that the times/period allowed back then, or "exchange programs", whatever that means, which sounds more like a cultural than a sportive thing, from both XV in 1985, and I am also thinking maybe possibly also for Santos in a small stint in 1986, before actually buying him on a full transfer, and my basic idea is:
– 1) if he didn't play any match of the kinds we are interested in for a club he was for 4 whole years in a country where the average/regular footballer plays since 16-17 years old (well, perhaps not in the state league, but they do so in the regional leagues), why would he not play a single match there until 1986 when he would be 18-19 years old (born in 1967)?
– 2) Most sources (including BBC) claim he was made a professional with Santos in 1986, but we found professional matches even in 1985 (for Paulista with XV), so they are wrong he became a professional there.
– 3) NFT includes the club with the year in 1985, not before, not after; if he didn't play any match that interests football DBs and us there in a club he was still an amateur footballer, why would they even include the club?
Hence, it is for these two previously stated reasons that I believe CA Juventus made him his first professional footballer registration license in 1985 (before that was an amateur player, playing in youth, i.e. U18 or U-x where X is smaller than 18) and not Santos in 1986, and all the times the reason this happens is simple --> so the player to play in professional matches, thus he must have played in 1985 for the club, unless he joined XV immediately after becoming professional.
– 4) The match vs. Gremio is on 06/01/1985, which is not a professional tournament (but one of the kinds we include, as equivalent to B team matches) and he appears in 24/11/1985 playing his first professional football, so he has become professional before, and apparently the exchange program didn't last 11 months; he must have been to XV for another exchange program or a loan, but what happened between January and November? I believe he returned to play in U21/U20 matches and ended up getting a professional license, because you have to be professional before playing a professional match, but I find no info of becoming professional in XV.
In simpler words, he signed for CA Juventus, a professional club in 1982, but apparently wasn't a professional until 1985, which is where we see him in Paulista; if it was XV that made him professional, why there isn't any relative information found online? So it has to be CA Juventus.
Summing up: we found out he did play with XV in 1985 his first professional match (apparently), which supports the theory of joining another club soon after becoming professional, but there are many months before in 1985 that he could have played for CA Juventus in Juniores tournaments.
Bottom line, I think we cover that in-between period with the question mark; probably we won't find records of any possible matches in-between, but it must be a minor one-digit insignificant number anyway...
Kind regards,
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 00:07, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
Fábio edit
Hello!
The matches for Cruzeiro on oGol from 2005 to 2021, which all have the tournament defined, total to 956 and not 955, do you perhaps know which is the extra one, so we can try to verify if he indeed played one more from other sources?
P.S. Cruzeiropedia has become a bit unreliable, as at the moment it reads 953 matches instead of 955; based on Cruzeiro's article and the matches played after we have 955 as a total, which was also what Cruzeiropedia had back then.
Kind regards,
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 10:14, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
Hello!
Thanks! Yes, I agree; there is a lot of information supporting that he definitely didn't play in that match... by the way, Cruzeiropedia has pre-match info explaining he won't be available for the match, and there is also this video of highlights (no match entire available, but the highlights back up Cruzeiropedia's description).
P.S. I hope we are not missing matches, and I am talking about those 4 oGol has between 1999 and 2000.
Kind regards,
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 20:50, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
Hello!
Yes, it makes perfectly sense why he couldn't play in that match, no idea why oGol includes him; maybe we could send them all the sources with the lineups, description and highlights video, so they remove him?
By the way, regarding the 2 matches shown now as friendlies in Cruzeiropedia, we will carry on as we were, i.e. with 955 as official; not only because Cruzeiropedia isn't officials, but also because we cannot "succumb" to "whims" (if I can put it this way) of having the status of matches being degraded after years: I don't exclude a couple of matches having being degraded to friendly ones, but were those official ones when they were played? That's what counts. After all, they haven't even given info about which two ones they are referring to...
Kind regards,
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 11:28, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
Hello!
Regarding the two matches Cruzeiropedia has added as friendlies, if you see his matches between 2005 and 2021 in oGol, all of them were in Série A, Série B, Mineiro, Brazil Cup, Copa Libertadores and Copa Sudamericana except for two that were played in Primeira Liga in 2016, which is not included in the friendly tournaments in RSSSF, included also as official in SoccerWay, apart from oGol; well, it's a Copa Sul-Minas-Rio "schism" tournament that wasn't played under CBF's seal, which recognized it as friendly (there is relative info in the Portuguese WP article), so I added a relative note. If you disagree, tell me.
Kind regards,
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 22:55, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
Tommy Hutchison edit
Hello!
ENFA includes the match details for all the matches for UK clubs in English and UK competitions, but they don't have those for purely Scottish or purely Welsh competitions, but, apart from being forbidden (since it's a subscription required), you cannot archive any of their pages anyway; there is no different URL, but one, so you can't do archived pages, however one could though make screenshots (SSs), but I wouldn't risk it... you can still see some of those matches in 11v11.
P.S. For league totals, you can see Barry Hugman, Sporting-Heroes and Neil Brown (more complete) archives.
Kind regards,
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 04:08, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
Kazuyoshi Miura 1986 edit
Hello!
I have found he did play in the Torneio Início Paulista in 1986 (tournament link in Portuguese WP and in RSSSF); I found at least one more match for Santos there in 1986 (Ponte Preta 1 x 0 Santos on 16 February 1986, link here) and also found online info from a blog that he played for CA Juventus as well there (link here – unreliable WordPress – which is an article about CA Juventus winning that tournament, where he appears as "Kazuo").
So +1 for Santos?
Kind regards,
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 15:41, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
Hello!
Yes, you are right, the matches were played in one day, so they cannot be added, didn't notice before...
P.S. I hadn't noticed it was played with matches of 20 minutes, because it's not listed as friendly in RSSSF, and I had also seen it in official websites (e.g. see CA Juventus here, also on their official facebook account), but apparently it can't be included with 20-minute duration; in addition, I found this (facebook account), which mentions it, but says it's not considered by them (Associação dos Pesquisadores e Historiadores do Santos FC, ASSOPHIS).
Kind regards,
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 18:31, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
Hello!
He is not on that match on ENFA, but I wouldn't exclude having played, as the lineups they show are missing substitutes, i.e. they have 11 only players for both clubs; it would be a miracle if both clubs didn't make any changes.
Kind regards,
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 06:41, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
Hello!
I am informing that I have decided to add to the list with the most official appearances Júnior, based on his profile on oGol. If you have any objections, please tell me.
Kind regards,
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 20:47, 19 November 2022 (UTC)
Hello!
I totally agree, in season by season comparison with FlaEstatistica seems exactly like Djalma Santos' case, who played football at a time when friendlies weren't separated from the official matches, but for the standards of the article he shouldn't be added.
Now, first we need to add 33 to the total because FlaEstatistica has 876 for Flamengo and oGol 843, and 4 more for the Olympic team, so 1105 + 37 = 1142 total.
Then, in addition to those 55 friendlies, and without searching extensively online for some tournaments (torneio...) which I couldn't find in the friendly tournaments, I have calculated these friendlies:
20 in 1977 + 3 matches in Torneio Início Carioca (which, if you remember, the matches were played in 10' or 20' at the same day) + 25 in 1978 + 15 in 1979 + 12 in 1980 + 3 in 1981 + 5 in 1982 + 4 in 1983 + 2 in 1984 + 3 in 1989 + 11 in 1990 + 11 in 1991 + 4 in 1992 + 5 in 1993 = 120 friendlies (+3 matches in Torneio Início) + 55 until 1976 = 178 in total, so 1142 – 178 = 964.
Furthermore, there are also discrepancies even in his numbers for the national team: if you see NFT, it has 69 instead of 74, and 11v11 has 72 including the farewell match of Zico in 1989, which was against the Rest of the World, and you can see in the club stats in 11v11 he additionally played once for the Rest of the World and once for a South America team, so probably the +2 is those matches (which would make the total 74, but we don't include those 3, including Zico's farewell, in the list). By the way, while oGol counts 74 in the total, they also have per tournament 69 in total, and finally, to add to that, all the seasons for Pescara and Torino have "Sem Competição Definida" matches.
So, bottom line, they are friendlies included, and he won't be added to the list.
Kind regards,
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 11:57, 20 November 2022 (UTC)
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RSSSF's Thousand Matches edit
Hello!
How are you? I am informing that I realized RSSSF's Thousand Matches publication (direct link here) got updated after more than 13 years (an unexpected positive surprise) and I see many names missing from WP's list of men's footballers with the most official appearances there, as well as some names, like Neville Southall, I already knew they had more than 1,000 official matches but couldn't find sources to back it up (such a verification is important, even though there is only a total number), however, since all but four players don't have details per team, no changes can be made to WP's list, apart from those 4 players, i.e. Peter Shilton, Raymond Clemence and Patrick Jennings will increase their tally and Stanley Matthews will be added to the list; regarding the rest, no changes can be made until there are such (per team) details added by RSSSF. Do you agree or have any objections to that?
Awaiting your feedback/opinion before proceeding with the changes.
Kind regards,
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 18:38, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
Hello!
Yes, I am aware of Pat Jennings needing updates, and, along with the addition of Stanley Matthews, the update is on the to-do list, and will be done in the same manner Peter Shilton and Ray Clemence were updated, when I have enough time.
Kind regards,
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 15:12, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
Ibrahimović, et c. edit
Hello!
Yes, I am aware of Ibrahimović and the others, as I am also aware that today he is included in Milan's squad, but I wait until someone has 998 matches before being added to the list (hidden until reaching 1,000).
Sources: oGol and Svenskfotboll are good enough to back his numbers in his WP bio article.
RSSSF has two more matches, but without any details, and these could have been in selects.
P.S. Zlatan, as well as Sergio Ramos, could have already been on the list, if they hadn't been prone to receiving match bans.
Kind regards,
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 10:21, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
Hello!
Based on WP, Luka Modrić seems to be the closest to reaching 1,000, but I am missing sources for 8 matches he has on WP (WP has 130 for Dinamo Zagreb, but I find only 125 from the known DBs, and WP has 25 for Zrinjski Mostar, while the DBs have 22). If you can find good references for these 8 extra matches, he will be added (hidden) after the next official match he plays.
Kind regards,
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 00:49, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
Hello!
FYI, Zlatan Ibrahimović, with 999 official appearances, has been added as hidden to the list. The 1,000th appearance is only a matter of time, most likely in the next match of Sweden.
Kind regards,
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 10:18, 25 March 2023 (UTC)
Yasuhito Endō edit
Hello!
It is based on what the relevant sources have/had.
Kind regards,
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 09:07, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
Luka Modrić edit
Hello!
I am searching for good references for the number of Luka Modrić for Dinamo Zagreb and Zrinjski Mostar. Since I could not find ones related to the clubs to justify the numbers, I am looking for a local source at that time from a famous news' outlet with the total both in Croatia and BiH, which could suffice, before looking for cup matches separately.
Kind regards,
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 16:21, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
Hello!
First, I would like to say that he has been added to the list.
Now, I wish to also say that I have also found two articles from famous newspapers of Croatia claiming 130 matches (and 33 goals in them, with his WP bio-article, by the way, claiming 32 goals) for his numbers for Dinamo Zagreb, which for me are good enough so his total for D. Zagreb to be changed to 130 matches (with +1 goal, 33 goals in total, based on the sources), and also with the starting year changed to 2000, based on the first reference that also has years (it now has 2001, based on his stats for Croatia U15). 1st ref direct link (scroll down because the stats are at the bottom) and 2nd ref direct link. Do you agree or do you have any objection?
P.S. I: His FootballDatabase profile also has 33 goals, even though it has 121 matches as the total, however also colour noted his national cup data for the four seasons he played for D. Zagred as incomplete, in the according column, having also no data at all in his first two seasons.
P.S. II: Still looking for sources about the 3 more matches WP has for Zrinjski Mostar, but the first article before also has 22 instead of 25 matches (like the known DBs).
Kind regards,
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 22:19, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
Hello!
I am informing I have already made the changes regarding D. Zagreb.
If you have any objection, just tell me...
Kind regards,
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 15:14, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
Hello!
I have also done the same for his numbers for Zrinjski Mostar, because I found good relevant references.
If you have any objection, just tell me...
Kind regards,
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 20:26, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
Ray Clemence edit
Hello!
Both matches were for the FA Cup.
Kind regards,
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 21:34, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
Zinho (Crizam César de Oliveira Filho) edit
Hello!
I will look at it as soon as possible.
Grêmiopédia alone, by the way, does not suffice, as all pedia/paedia/paideia/paedeia are user generated websites, and so another reference backing this total would be needed, or at least some proof for the extra 11 matches it has (oGol has 135), which is very likely to be already on the site, as often in Grêmiopédia there are also match reports, e.g. from a newspaper, et c.
Also, oGol's total of 57 matches for Brazil senior NT not only is not in accordance with what other football DBs have, but also oGol has match reports for only 55 matches, even though their total sums up to 57, so another good ref is needed there as well, ideally a ref coming from CBF claiming 57 matches.
Nonetheless, if the numbers of Fla Estatística and Verdazzo are those you say, then he still, even without 13 matches, would have 1,069 matches, so yes, he can be added.
P.S. I had already responded previously about Pat Jennings (see here).
Kind regards,
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 21:48, 8 April 2023 (UTC)
Renamed edit
Hello!
What do you think about this?
Kind regards,
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 05:46, 15 May 2023 (UTC)
1000 or more official appearances edit
Hello!
Long time no see. How are you? Hope all is fine!
If it's no bother, I would much appreciate your contribution here.
Kind regards,
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 21:27, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
Hello!
I am fine too, thanks for asking, also I am pleased to "hear" from you and reading you are fine!
I personally prefer flexibility, i.e. a more generic name, so I like it as it is right now, so disagree with the name change, like I also said here, but everyone is entitled to his/her opinion, so you are, of course, allowed to disagree, but please, if you can, write down your opinion/input/feedback in the talk page of the article, as it may be crucial, since it's a tie, at the moment.
Kind regards,
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 22:26, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
Hello!
As I don't have time anymore, as much as I would like to have, I have decided to opt to seize my curation of the list.
If you wish to take over, please do so.
Kind regards,
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 10:55, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Pepe Reina edit
Hello!
Based on his bio WP article, he has 999 official matches. As I don't have spare time currently to check the known football DBs (oGol, FDB, 11v11, BDFutbol, et c.) and sources for his NT numbers, if you can, please cross-check them for verification and, if you wish, add him to the list or just do only the former and I'll add him myself when I have time (it will be much easier once I have confirmed the numbers he has in WP and have the sources available alltogether).
No matter what, thanks in advance.
Kind regards,
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 21:10, 22 June 2023 (UTC)
Hello!
Nice! Go ahead and add him to the list then.
My time is limited anymore, I can't keep up updating the list.
Please take over...
Kind regards,
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 21:58, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
Stanley Matthews, Pat Jennings and Roberto Carlos edit
Hello!
If you take over the article, I wish to remind that Stanley Matthews needs to be added (RSSSF's source) and Pat Jennings to be updated (same source). Also, noting that both IFFHS and RSSSF have 5 more matches for Roberto Carlos, for whom we had other references claiming 5 more matches.
Kind regards,
Lorry Gundersen (talk) 23:49, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
Paulo da Silva edit
Hello! Do you perhaps know how many official appearances does Paulo da Silva have? The Spanish article (link here) includes him with 1005 matches, but the known DBs, e.g. oGol, still show him far from the threshold. Kind regards, Lorry Gundersen (talk) 17:04, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
Xavi edit
Hello! With the url-status parameter on the ref set to dead, there is no need for a note. Kind regards, Lorry Gundersen (talk) 12:28, 2 August 2023 (UTC)
August 2023 edit
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Jamie Cureton edit
Hello! I am fine, thank you, how about you? Regarding the first issue, the FA Youth XI match should not be included in the count, like it is for other players, but it could be mentioned as an explanatory note. Regarding the second one, RSSSF is of course not infallible, and so they may be missing one match, perhaps he played one in 2023? The last match date they have is 2022 and not 2023. Kind regards, Lorry Gundersen (talk) 00:22, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
Hello! Is he still playing or has he retired from playing, because his WP bio article says he is a player-manager while he is not bolded on the list? On another topic, if you ever have spare time, you can consider also adding Scott McGleish and Barry Hayles to the list. Kind regards, Lorry Gundersen (talk) 12:59, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
- Also, a tip, if I may: it is wise to back-up refs once per year, i.e. to update the archived links of still playing players, as obviously only these need updating. Kind regards, Lorry Gundersen (talk) 13:07, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
Edit warring at Jaromír Jágr edit
You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on Jaromír Jágr. This means that you are repeatedly changing content back to how you think it should be although other editors disagree. Users are expected to collaborate with others, to avoid editing disruptively, and to try to reach a consensus, rather than repeatedly undoing other users' edits once it is known that there is a disagreement.
Points to note:
- Edit warring is disruptive regardless of how many reverts you have made;
- Do not edit war even if you believe you are right.
If you find yourself in an editing dispute, use the article's talk page to discuss controversial changes and work towards a version that represents consensus among editors. You can post a request for help at an appropriate noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, it may be appropriate to request temporary page protection. If you engage in an edit war, you may be blocked from editing.
- This is just a friendly reminder as WP:BRD says not to restore content if you are reverted and discuss it. Sources like hockeyDB.com and eurohockey.com say that Jágr played 1 game in the 1994–95 Serie A season. In addition, Bolzano played in the 1994 Six Nations Tournament, but not in the 1994–95 Alpenliga season. I suggest you check your sources again instead of edit warring. – sbaio 09:25, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- Hello
- First if you look at one of your sources here eurohockey.com it says the Alpenliga right? If you look here from you also 1994 Six Nations Tournament you will see that the 1994–95 Alpenliga season was (quote) "temporarily merged into" in other words "part of" this tournament that season according to the text ok so YES he did play in the Alpenliga as part of the six nations tournament agree? If he played 1 game also in the Serie A that is ok but then it should be a separate line for this so one line with Alpenliga and one line with the serie A game like they did here eurohockey.com agree?
- Hope for reply.
- P.S. Did add that one game in Serie A on him is this ok?
- Kind regards Bakermannn (talk) 20:42, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- Moving your reply on my talk page to here, because you are supposed to keep the discussion in one place. In addition, I am well aware of my sources. You should realize that "temporarily merged into" is not the same as being on its own. Therefore, he did not play in the Alpenliga, because Bolzano played in a completely new and unrelated division. – sbaio 04:39, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
- Kind regards Bakermannn (talk) 20:42, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
Billy Meredith edit
Hello! I wanted to also inform that RSSSF's list was updated in July, and it anymore includes details also on another player, William "Billy" Meredith's numbers; excluding reserves (19+), Welsh trial matches (14) and other selects (7) there are (1078 minus 40) 1038 matches and can be added to the list, what do you think? You can see his 50 international matches on the 11v11 profile. Kind regards, Lorry Gundersen (talk) 13:51, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
- 1043+ matches actually, because his 5+ matches for Chirk Reserves were for the Welsh Amateur Cup which also includes A teams. Direct link for the details here. Kind regards, Lorry Gundersen (talk) 14:11, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
- Hello! Summing up for RSSSF's list, at the moment the only things left are Stanley Matthews and William Meredith to be added to the list. Kind regards, Lorry Gundersen (talk) 23:57, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
Hello! If RSSSF includes them, it means there are FAs that credit them as official. Besides, my thesis is he should be added with relevant notes, as, regardless if those matches were later regarded as unofficial ones, they were official ones when they were played, which is what really counts. And the same stands for Stanley Matthews. Maybe also with a gray background to indicate this. Regarding Meredith, 6 abandoned matches (1 goal) should not be included (so the total is 1,037+), like it is for all the other players who have the abandoned matches removed from WP's list, and there should also be a note about the 2 matches in the Victory tournament, which the English and Welsh FAs do not deem as official, while other FAs involved do, including also the 11v11 (Association of Football Statisticians, AFS, statisticians). The references I would like to add are these, whenever I have time. If you have free time, feel free to add them. Kind regards, Lorry Gundersen (talk) 18:22, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
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Ivan Rakitić edit
Hello! Yes, I am aware; in my notes-bookmarks, he is the next new player to be added to the list, and I have been following his matches recently, i.e. specifically since the transfer to Al-Shabab, because I knew he was nearing... by the way, I haven't checked the football DBs for confirmation, so there may be more matches than what his WP bio-article claims... In the meantime, I wish to add Paulo da Silva, who seems to already have passed the milestone, but hadn't found time to add him. Kind regards, Lorry Gundersen (talk) 21:08, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
Edin Džeko edit
Hello! Yes, I know he is close, as I very recently made a check of players who are near to the milestone (in fact, I checked the numbers of players who have near 960 matches and above, i.e. from Jesús Navas), but there is some time before following his matches. In fact, after Ivan Rakitić, who could have reached 1,000 matches easily by now if he hadn't been injured, I think the next one to reach first 1,000 matches, before Edin Džeko, would be Robert Lewandowski, taken into he has more upcoming matches than the rest players who are close (Poland will play at the finals of the Euro, BiH no). Kind regards, Lorry Gundersen (talk) 09:52, 30 April 2024 (UTC)