清风与明月

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• Good day, and a belated welcome to Wikipedia. Having reviewed the content of above article, I noticed that you had started copying back the content removed by Significa liberdade above. While I am certain you meant well, it is critical that you take the above warning to heart and refrain from copying content from other sites onto Wikipedia in the future, as otherwise you will be blocked from editing.
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  Kindly, MLauba ^(Talk) 17:21, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

Removal of "courtesan"

You have repeatedly removed the term "courtesan" in multiple articles or replaced it with dancer these are not synonymous and neither is courtesan a derogatory term. Your edits frequently go against the RS cited within the page or actually distort quotes. Please desist from doing edit like these. Gotitbro (talk) 07:29, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

The same goes for your insertion of "kotha" instead of brothel among numerous other edits which censor anything related to prostitution or the sex industry in India, remember WP:Wikipedia is not censored. I will be reverting your edits and redcommend you to not proceed further with any such unliateral edits before seeking consensus on Talk pages. Gotitbro (talk) 07:38, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

However, in English expressions, Western courtesan and tawaif are also somewhat different. Moreover, there are some differences in expressions between kotha and brothel. Brothel generally refers to a place of prostitution, but in some movies and TV dramas, "kotha" does not include prostitution. So change the expression. 清风与明月 (talk) 10:20, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

@清风与明月: Again I have to remind you that Wikipedia is WP:NOTCENSORED. You repeated removal of categories and article content and context serving the same is now becoming disruptive. Courtesans, tawaifs and the like here at enwiki and in scholarly sources for the same are intimately linked with prostitution you cannot unilateraly change that. If you an issue with this aspect take it up at WP:Wikiproject History or WT:IN (the India forum) and establish your case there with relevant sources but you are not going to brute force your edits as such. A continuation of this editing behaviour may lead to editing restrictions in the form of bans. Gotitbro (talk) 17:04, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

If you look at the relevant descriptions, the most commonly used words for Gangubai and Begum Jaan are prostitutes and sex workers. For the classification of documentary and drama, the word tawaif I use is "courtesan". In addition, for academic aspects of tawaif, you can refer to textual research books. There are also expressions of The Courtesan Project and Tawaif and Kotha roam activities. 清风与明月 (talk) 03:30, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

For "courtesan", you have to understand the different cultural expressions of the West and the East. There are also film and television works that have different settings. Some film and television works do not involve prostitution, or do not clearly explain it. Directly positioning it as a prostitution movie is a bit biased. 清风与明月 (talk) 03:32, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Pakistani actress and dancer Niggo is from tawaif background. You have no evidence to prove that she is engaged in prostitution. You define actress Niggo as prostitution. Do you have substantial evidence to prove that actress Niggo has prostitution? 清风与明月 (talk) 03:36, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Film and television works are one thing, reality is another. For example, this time the Heeramandi TV series did not reflect the difference well. There are some female singers and actresses from tawaif background in India and Pakistan who are not prostitutes. 清风与明月 (talk) 03:47, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Your comments appear to fall under the WP:IDONOTLIKEIT rationale i.e. they are not tenable. Yes, there are always nuances involved but for the purposes of the English Wikipedia tawaifs and similar professions are broadly treated under the umbrella of prostitution/sex work. Your own WP:SYNTH understanding of these topics is not going to lead to a unilateral overhauling of the content, for that as stated before find WP:CONSENSUS at the forums linked above and convince other editors of the change. Till then, per the present consensus and precedent, your edits cannot stand.

As for Niggo, read the sources linked in the article, they say exactly what you have been trying to remove. Gotitbro (talk) 12:50, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Regarding Niggo's wiki, the reason why I changed the description of the red light district and only kept the description of heeramandi is mainly because she is a real person, even a modern person, although she has passed away, but try to avoid misunderstandings.The reference material says that Heeramandi is a red-light district, which is true because this place did develop into a red-light district later. But in the early days of Pakistani movies, there were still tawaifs there. Not all of them were engaged in prostitution, but at that time, tawaifs, prostitutes, and accompanying musicians were all in the same area. Some of Pakistan's early film actresses and singers were tawaifs from Heeramandi. 清风与明月 (talk) 14:55, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

For example, except for Niggo, the others with wiki entries are Nadira, Naina, Zeenat Begum, and Tamancha Jan, all of whom were born as tawaifs in Heeramandi and went into the film and television industry. The main reason is that Niggo's entry is added separately to the red-light district. For modern people who really exist like this, they may think she is "relatively special", so only her wiki is marked. 清风与明月 (talk) 14:55, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamancha_Jan

Tamancha Jan’s wiki entry, which I saw was edited by someone else, only describes heeramandi, not the red-light district. Although that place had already developed into a red-light district, for a real person, it might be more appropriate to directly describe the background of heeramandi’s tawaif. So for Niggo’s wiki, I borrowed the wiki model of Tamancha Jan. 清风与明月 (talk) 14:56, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

I does not matter whar other articles say, please read WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. We go by what sources say for a particular subject say. Gotitbro (talk) 10:26, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

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I have sent you a note about a page you started

Hello, 清风与明月. Thank you for your work on Mubarak Begum (tawaif). North8000, while examining this page as a part of our page curation process, had the following comments:

Good start. Needs more of a lead, which is a summary of the the article. Happy editing!

To reply, leave a comment here and begin it with {{Re|North8000}}. Please remember to sign your reply with ~~~~. (Message delivered via the Page Curation tool, on behalf of the reviewer.)

North8000 (talk) 14:47, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

@North8000:清风与明月 has received a reply, thank you. 清风与明月 (talk) 15:25, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

March 2024

Your edit to Zareena Begum has been removed in whole or in part, as it appears to have added copyrighted material to Wikipedia without evidence of permission from the copyright holder. If you are the copyright holder, please read Wikipedia:Donating copyrighted materials for more information on uploading your material to Wikipedia. For legal reasons, Wikipedia cannot accept copyrighted material, including text or images from print publications or from other websites, without an appropriate and verifiable license. All such contributions will be deleted. You may use external websites or publications as a source of information, but not as a source of content, such as sentences or images—you must write using your own words. Wikipedia takes copyright very seriously, and persistent violators of our copyright policy will be blocked from editing. See Wikipedia:Copying text from other sources for more information. Wikishovel (talk) 08:43, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Zareena Begum moved to draftspace

Thanks for your contributions to Zareena Begum. Unfortunately, I do not think it is ready for publishing at this time because it needs more sources to establish notability. I have converted your article to a draft which you can improve, undisturbed for a while.

Please see more information at Help:Unreviewed new page. When the article is ready for publication, please click on the "Submit your draft for review!" button at the top of the page OR move the page back. Significa liberdade (she/her) (talk) 01:39, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

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Speedy deletion nomination of Aurra Bhatnagar Badoni

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A tag has been placed on Aurra Bhatnagar Badoni requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A7 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be about a real person or group of people that does not credibly indicate how or why the subject is important or significant: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, such articles may be deleted at any time. Please read more about what is generally accepted as notable.

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Chen Yuanyuan

Hello, 清风与明月. If you need to make further changes of Chen Yuanyuan, please make specific adjustments instead of reverting the entire article; I'm afraid there are more than a few grammar and readability issues in your version. For example, I know 梨园 but sentences like 'Chen Yuanyuan was originally from Liyuan. She was an actress and singer in Liyuan.' don't make much sense in English (And why repeat the same thing twice anyway?)

Sentences like 'Chen Yuanyuan was both talented and beautiful, famous in Jiangzuo, and had the demeanor of a famous scholar. Every time she performs on stage, she is brilliant and outstanding, and the audience applauds him.' are grammatically awkward and largely unsourced. (She or he? Hongniang was her first role? Jiangzuo is not a proper name in English. The 孙会昌 piece has no historical value and shouldn't be used as a source.)

There are also conflicting accounts in your version. In the summary, it says Liu Zongmin took her, while in the article, it becomes Li Zicheng. In fact, we know very little about CYY's life and it's easy to find conflicting sources about her. For instances, who adopted her? Who brought her to Beijing? And ofc who took her in the fall of Beijing? It would prob be better to reconcile varied versions in the summary (i.e., she was taken by 'the Shun army,' instead of specifically by Liu or Li) and provide more details in the bio if you want.

I retained 'Geji' instead of 'courtesan' in the summary, as you suggested, though imho the hair-splitting is pointless in Chen's case and 'courtesan' is much more understandable to common readers. Chen's line of work is barely a topic for debate even in the Chinese world. It's easy to find academic literature that outright calls her a '妓女'.

And pls use proper sentence spacing. Enrico Chou (talk) 10:12, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

It's like this. Chen Yuanyuan was captured by two people, Li Zicheng and Liu Minzong, so there is no problem with these two statements. Chen Yuanyuan is a Geji (singer) who plays the konghou and sings. In addition, she also performs Kunqu Opera, and she should be understood as both a singer and an actor. Because in ancient China, there were also certain differences between female opera actors and female singers and dancers. In today's China, few people distinguish the difference between prostitutes and Gejis. Directly calling Chen Yuanyuan a "prostitute" is probably a misunderstanding. In Ming and Qing dynasty documents, Chen Yuanyuan was called an actress(女优) and a Geji(歌妓). I haven't finished editing her Wikipedia article yet. Can wait two or three days before making corrections? 清风与明月 (talk) 11:22, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your advice and help. I'm going to polish this wiki first, and I hope you'll adjust it again after I'm done. Thank you. 清风与明月 (talk) 13:30, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

No problem. Thanks to your contribution! Enrico Chou (talk) 01:15, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Where are you from?Are you Chinese? 清风与明月 (talk) 08:26, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

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May 2024

Hello, I'm Joyous!. I wanted to let you know that one or more of your recent contributions to Heeramandi have been undone because they did not appear constructive. If you would like to experiment, please use your sandbox. If you have any questions, you can ask for assistance at the Teahouse or the Help desk. Thanks. Joyous! Noise! 03:58, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm sorry for the warning. I misunderstood what you were trying to say in that edit. Perhaps using a phrase like "films with a similar focus on prostitution..." might help? Joyous! Noise! 04:18, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

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Dancing Girl (China) moved to draftspace

Thanks for your contributions to Dancing Girl (China). Unfortunately, I do not think it is ready for publishing at this time because it needs more sources to establish notability and it has too many problems of language or grammar. I have converted your article to a draft which you can improve, undisturbed for a while.

Please see more information at Help:Unreviewed new page. When the article is ready for publication, please click on the "Submit your draft for review!" button at the top of the page OR move the page back. CycloneYoris ^talk! 16:39, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

I couldn't find where the page was and it showed that it had been deleted. 清风与明月 (talk) 16:45, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

The draft shows that it cannot be submitted. 清风与明月 (talk) 16:52, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: Dancing girl (profession) (June 2)

Your recent article submission to Articles for Creation has been reviewed. Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time. The reason left by Timtrent was:  The comment the reviewer left was: Please check the submission for any additional comments left by the reviewer. You are encouraged to edit the submission to address the issues raised and resubmit after they have been resolved.

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🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 10:11, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Hello, 清风与明月! Having an article draft declined at Articles for Creation can be disappointing. If you are wondering why your article submission was declined, please post a question at the Articles for creation help desk. If you have any other questions about your editing experience, we'd love to help you at the Teahouse, a friendly space on Wikipedia where experienced editors lend a hand to help new editors like yourself! See you there! 🇺🇦 FiddleTimtrent FaddleTalk to me 🇺🇦 10:11, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: Dancing girl (profession) (June 2)

Your recent article submission to Articles for Creation has been reviewed. Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time. The reason left by Timtrent was: Please check the submission for any additional comments left by the reviewer. You are encouraged to edit the submission to address the issues raised and resubmit after they have been resolved.

• If you would like to continue working on the submission, go to Draft:Dancing girl (profession) and click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window.
• If you do not edit your draft in the next 6 months, it will be considered abandoned and may be deleted.
• If you need any assistance, or have experienced any untoward behavior associated with this submission, you can ask for help at the Articles for creation help desk, on the reviewer's talk page or use Wikipedia's real-time chat help from experienced editors.

🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 10:46, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

I just want to know why it didn't pass? Where can I go to discuss editing? 清风与明月 (talk) 11:00, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

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July 2024

Your recent editing history at History of Chinese dance shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war; that means that you are repeatedly changing content back to how you think it should be, when you have seen that other editors disagree. To resolve the content dispute, please do not revert or change the edits of others when you are reverted. Instead of reverting, please use the talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. The best practice at this stage is to discuss, not edit-war; read about how this is done. If discussions reach an impasse, you can then post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection.

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WikiProject

Hi, I see you've contributed a lot to Wang Kui Betrays Guiying, would you be interested in a taskforce on oral tradition? Kowal2701 (talk) 16:34, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

ANI Notice

There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you.Brocade River Poems 23:56, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Hello, please do not delete the Wikipedia of "Geji", it will be improved and modified later. And about the introduction of some Geji in ancient China, their occupations and the regions they came from, I think it is not necessary to describe the occupations and regions in each article, it is more convenient to directly link to the "Geji" Wikipedia. Reference materials and content will be gradually supplemented. Because I have too many things to do recently, I have not improved the Wikipedia of "Geji" for the time being. The current content is just an outline, and reference materials will definitely be supplemented and improved later. What I want to say is that the word "Yiji" was not used in ancient China, and it should not be used as an entry name. 清风与明月 (talk) 18:23, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

I am not against "courtesan", but because in English, for ancient Chinese professions, English calls ancient Chinese high-class prostitutes and female artists "courtesan", and everyone calls them "courtesan", which makes it difficult to distinguish their specific information intuitively. Because related professions in China are not strictly distinguished between courtesan and prostitute in English like India and Pakistan. It is also not like Japan, which only uses its own words to distinguish between courtesan and geisha. So I just want to clarify the specific difference. Calling them all "courtesan" is easy to cause misunderstanding. 清风与明月 (talk) 18:28, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

I did not say that the "Geji" in ancient China did not participate in prostitution at all, but that they were different from high-class prostitutes. I have not yet added that some of them were also involved in prostitution and some were sexually exploited, because I was too busy and sick recently, so I did not have time to add relevant content. Please do not delete all my edits. I really edited them carefully and ensured that the content information would be relatively accurate. I really studied this culture. I think that if there is ambiguity, different content should be added, rather than deleting all the edits. Reference materials can be replaced and supplemented, rather than deleting content. 清风与明月 (talk) 18:34, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Because in ancient China, Geji (female singers and dancers), prostitutes and high-class prostitutes were all called "Ji (妓)". This word has two meanings in ancient Chinese, which is different from the single meaning in modern Chinese. Because China now uses modern Chinese, and ancient China used classical Chinese, many modern Chinese people cannot read and distinguish this. Because I am very interested in this culture and have translated relevant ancient texts myself, I understand the difference. I will also add to the issue of Geji being sexually exploited. At the same time, not all sexual exploitation is prostitution, but it can be said to be sexual exploitation to a certain extent. I have been sick recently, and I will definitely start to add this content tomorrow. 清风与明月 (talk) 18:44, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Collaboration on Geji

Might I suggest here that we work together on the issue? As you have competency in the Chinese language beyond my own skills, your contribution of translations and sources in Chinese would be invaluable assistance in improving the article. If you could supply sources and the translations, myself and others can make sure they are added to Geji and formatted properly in a way that would meet Wikipedia's quality standards. Brocade River Poems 20:05, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Of course. It's just that there are many things I can find in classical Chinese, but few people have translated them into English, so there may be a lack of intuitive English content. Some of my references are Chinese articles published on China News Network, which do not have high requirements for citations. Usually, they can be used as long as they are published on news websites. For some content, I can find Chinese papers, such as those on "China Knowledge Network", but I don't know how to cite those papers, so I can only indicate the name and article title. 清风与明月 (talk) 20:12, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Like I said, if you can just provide links/names of the sources and furnish a translation of them yourself for what they are saying, someone else can make sure they get cited properly and make sure the writing adheres to the quality standards of Wikipedia. As I said on the ANI, I do not think you should go and remove Geji from historical Geji. You raise a valid point that if Geisha are allowed to be defined as Geisha, that we should define Geji as Geji. We just need to get the Geji article up to the same quality as the Geisha article. Brocade River Poems 20:15, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

I also thought about it, for example, the character page, it is indeed more standardized to use the word courtesan, and it is easier to browse. But it may need a “Geji” Wikipedia article to further explain. 清风与明月 (talk) 20:16, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

An example of more sources that we could use to help the Geji article are like this one [1] which I found, which helps provide a definition for how "Chinese Courtesan Culture" differs from the west. The journal article states In order to understand the social role of the courtesan, it is important to define the position. This requires a comprehension of the etymology of the term, and how the English language may fail to reflect this idea in a translation. Classical Chinese is known to have a variety of words to define women in specific roles and duties within a given social ladder, the most common of these would refer to a courtesan as ji.3 While sexual favors may be one of the services provided by ji, she is first and foremost an entertainer. Chinese courtesan culture was defined by several integral points: a skill in the literary arts, such as writing and poetry; a comprehension in song and singing; a setting of trends in fashion and art; as well as the ability to combine these talents to promote a literary exchange amongst the elite Brocade River Poems 20:18, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

That's true. I'll try to find more information to complete this. 清风与明月 (talk) 20:18, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your cooperation. I have withdrawn my complaint on the ANI, and I apologize for assuming incorrectly that you would be unwilling to engage in productive dialogue. That was improper of me, and I am sorry. Brocade River Poems 20:20, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

I also need to apologize. I really thought you were going to delete all the versions. 清风与明月 (talk) 20:35, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

No need to apologize. I don't want to delete the articles, I just want to improve them so they don't end up getting deleted. I started this journey because I really loved Xue Tao's poetry, and then I went about improving Liu Caichun and I've been jumping around and improving articles ever since. I eventually want to try my hand at creating Xu Yuan (poet), which presently doesn't exist, if you'd wish to collaborate on that as well. I do not know what Chinese sources there are potentially for her, but I have located [2], [3], [4], and [5] at least four different books that all seem to describe her as a renowned poet of the late Ming Dynasty.

It seems that Xu Yuan was a woman of a higher status who ended up befriending and writing poems about Geji. Brocade River Poems 20:46, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

However, I have two suggestions. The two parts of etymology and downfall can be kept intact. Better reference materials can be added, but the content of these two areas should not be changed. Because these two areas are very important, one is some statements about etymology, and the other is the disappearance of culture in the late Qing Dynasty and the Republic of China. I have described these two key parts as objectively as possible. 清风与明月 (talk) 20:49, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

I had no intention on deleting the sections. They need to be cleaned up and sourced properly. The only reason I deleted the contents of Tang Dynasty from the Sui and Tang Dynasty section was because the entire massive block of text that was the Tang Dynasty portion only had two sources attributed to it, one of which no longer worked, and the other one seemed to be about Xue Tao specifically. Presently, the etymology section is a mess of terms and definitions. I would suggest that we should try and model the etymology section after what we see in Geisha, I.E, creating an orderly list of terms that need to be defined. Brocade River Poems 21:04, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't know much about Xu Yuan. I only know that Xu Yuan was a female poet in the Ming Dynasty. She was a boudoir woman from a wealthy family. Her husband was Fan Yunlin. Because geji in ancient China also went to the homes of wealthy people to perform and provide entertainment for the women of wealthy families, it is possible that Xu Yuan met Xue Susu in this way. Xu Yuan admired Xue Susu's talent, so the two were friends. At the same time, Xu Yuan's husband Fan Yunlin was also a friend of Xue Susu. They both seemed to like Xue Susu's singing, painting and riding. Xu Yuan also hired several other geji to row boats. I don't know much about her, just a little impression. 清风与明月 (talk) 20:59, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Oh, prior knowledge about her isn't a requirement. I only just learned of her when I was editing the Geji page. I was moreso suggesting that if you wanted to help on creating the article for her, finding sources in Chinese could be a valuable contribution. It's an invitation, though, you don't have to accept obviously. Cheers Brocade River Poems 21:06, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Regarding the issue of words, I have changed many Wikipedia entries from "geji" to "courtesan", which is indeed more convenient and easy for the public to read. The reason why some Wikipedia entries have not been changed back is because I want to expand other content, and I will change them back when I expand soon. However, for entries like "Li Pingxiang", I decided to keep the word "geji". Her experience is more complicated. In her era, using geji can better distinguish her from ordinary "Changsan". There is an article in the Chinese reference material that describes her as "Yiji", but now the word Yiji is first used for Japanese geishas in Chinese, so I use geji here. There are also pages like Chinese attractions, which involve related content. The Chinese introduction directly writes geji or singing girl, so I also keep the word geji on the pages about Chinese attractions. For some fictional novels and characters written by ancient people, I also keep geji, such as those related to Water Margin and Peach Blossom Fan. I have explained this issue before or in the "Geji" entry. The "Geji" Wikipedia is also being improved. I need to say that most of the more than 200 references are not in violation of the rules. The most they may be is that they are not the first book references. I am also gradually translating the ancient Chinese references into English. References from other Chinese news websites can be opened directly and automatically translated. There are not many permission requirements for articles published on such Chinese news websites. As long as they are not used in their entirety and only a small amount or part of the content is quoted, they can be used to participate in the editing of the encyclopedia. As long as the link is brought over and it is stated that it is a quotation, it does not constitute an infringement of these Chinese news websites. For example, articles from these Chinese news websites are often used to improve China's Baidu Encyclopedia. These Chinese news websites have always agreed to be used as references for various encyclopedias, as long as comply with the above regulations. 清风与明月 (talk) 05:29, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

There are also lists of people on Wikipedia, such as lists of female poets and female artists. I have also kept geji for this, because this list is a big summary, which is convenient for users who want to know more about each person to click on it to learn more. Keeping geji also makes it easier for people who are interested to click on them to learn more about them. 清风与明月 (talk) 05:47, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Regarding Chinese history, there are two entries that need to be corrected, that is, the content about "courtesan" in the Tang Dynasty and the content about "courtesan" in Chang'an. So I also found the drawback of all similar professions in ancient China being called "courtesan". One thing that needs to be made clear is that the "courtesan" in the "Beili" of Chang'an in the Tang Dynasty were not literary workers, they were real sex workers. The real literary workers in Chang'an in the Tang Dynasty were geji in Jiaofang (you can understand it as the courtesan of Jiaofang in the Tang Dynasty). The "Beili" of Chang'an was a prostitution community, and the Jiaofang of Chang'an was a cultural community. These two Wikipedias got this completely wrong, and contributed the poetry of geji in the Tang Dynasty to the sex workers in the "Beili". In the Tang Dynasty, courtesans like Xue Tao were different from the courtesans in the "Beili" of Chang'an. It was the former courtesan who contributed to the poetry of the Tang Dynasty, not the latter courtesan. So you can also look at the problem I am talking about. This is not a problem of naming. Especially the Wikipedia of the Tang Dynasty, it is obvious that there is no clear distinction between Jiaofang courtesan and "Beili" courtesan. 清风与明月 (talk) 09:26, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

So I want to find English materials to clarify the two types of courtesans in Chang'an during the Tang Dynasty, one is the courtesan of Jiaofang and the other is the courtesan of "Bei Li". The courtesan of Jiaofang made more or major contributions to Tang Dynasty poetry. But English materials may not go into the issue of prostitution of the courtesan of "Bei Li" in the Tang Dynasty. So now on the Tang Dynasty Wikipedia and Chang'an Wikipedia, the "Bei Li" courtesan who really engaged in prostitution are portrayed as singers and artists. As for the real singers and dancers, that is, the courtesan of Jiaofang, they are not mentioned. This is the problem. 清风与明月 (talk) 09:35, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Hi, I'll try to find sources in my freetime and get back to you as soon as I can. As I am starting my semester at University, though, my available time to dedicate to Wikipedia is going to decrease dramatically. That said, [6] this book does mention the Jiaofang courtesans, describing them as These developments were consonant with other important shifts in late Tang society, yet much of the change in entertainment life originally emanated from the court. Music had always been important to the ritual ceremonies of Chinese governance, but the mid-Tang Emperor Xuanzong (r. 712-56) departed from earlier precedents in creating a "Court Entertainment Bureau” (jiao fang 教坊) devoted to training court musicians in popular music and entertainment

And that the early Song Dynasty created their own Court Entertainment Bureau. 10 Initially separate from the Court of Imperial Sacrifices (tai chang si 太常 寺), which provided ritual music for court ceremonies, the Song jiao fang served as a training school-cum-theatrical institute designed to provide the highly skilled performers-men as well as women-required for frequent court festivities. Jiao fang entertainers presented music (both instrumental and vocal), dance, and a variety of theatrical arts ranging from humorous skits to acrobatics."

I've also found that in one of the soruces I've used before (this one), it states the common courtesans in the capital of Chang'an inhabited their own quarter, known as the Pingkang district (Pingkang fang 平康坊) or the Northern Ward (Beili 北里), on page 79.

There's also this bit from this The Beili zhi is explicit that what distinguished jiaofang personnel from other entertainers was that, like government entertainers in the prefectures, their names were recorded on government registers, and they were liable for service when the government demanded. The par allel between jiaofang entertainers and government courtesans is fur ther reflected in the use of the term yingji to designate government courtesans

It also says The expansion of entertainments over the course of the Tang began in the palace precincts. Demonstrating their growing interest in musical entertainment, the emperors of the early Tang established a musical "Inner Court Entertainment Bureau" (nei jiaofang within the Forbidden City. Scholars surmise that the function of this institution was to provide musical entertainment for the denizens of the back palace, for it clearly was meant to supplement the Court of Imperial Sacrifices (taichangsi ), which was in charge of managing ritual music for the outer court and ns.22 Allegedly concerned that the music of the Entertain ment Bureau was "not proper" (fei zheng sheng ), Xuanzong established a new "Inner Court Entertainment Bureau" within the For bidden City but he also set up "left and right" Court Entertainment Bureaus outside the palaces in both Chang'an and Loyang.23 Ouyang Xius (1007-1072) understanding in the early Song was that the outer jiaofang of the Tang were intended to house the purveyors of more popular-style entertainments, including acting and skits, which were to be distinguished from the formal ritual music of the court.24 The most contemporary source extant, Cui Lingqins (eighth century) Jiaofang ji j b2 (Record of the Court Entertain ment Bureau), is more specific, portraying the right jiaofang as dedi cated to singers and the left as housing dancers. Composed during or shortly after the An Lushan rebellion in 755, Cui s work alludes to a number of other innovations that Xuanzong undertook in reorga nizing and developing palace entertainments, and shows Xuanzong to have been quite interested in popular music.25 Cui explains that the emperor selected particularly talented women from the outer jiaofang to form the Harmonizing-with- Spring Court (yichun yuan JÉL.#Ptc), and notes that in performance those women were supplemented by entertainers from other palace troupes, including those of the Bureau of Natural Harmony

Sorry if there's formatting issues, I'm copying straight from the PDF of the jounral article and don't have the time to go through and manually edit the text to correct any issues.

I've also found a book titled The Peak Time of Entertainment in China: A Study of the Jiaofang During the Tang Dynasty (618-907 AD) that I'll look into. But in the preface they write I wrote about both the guanji and the City Female Performers 市井伎(the yueji supplied musical and/or sexual services to commoners) in Chang’an. She also has an entire chapter dedicated to CITY FEMALE PERFORMERS IN CHANG’AN and under the chapter they have a section titled Pingkang Fang’s Beili

I'll look into her book in-depth when I get some time, but it seems like Li Wang's The Peak Time of Entertainment in China: A Study of the Jiaofang During the Tang Dynasty (618-907 AD) is going to be an invaluable source for differentiating between the higher class courtesans, and those that lived in the Beili.

Cheers Brocade River Poems 21:51, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Hi, thank you very much for your reply. Regarding the courtesan (geji or yueji) of the Jiaofang in Chang'an during the Tang Dynasty and the courtesan of the Pingkang fang in Chang'an during the Tang Dynasty, I can only find some Chinese references, and I haven't found any suitable references before. Thank you for the English books and journals you provided. 清风与明月 (talk) 04:23, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Unfortunately, Li Wang's book did have the minor problem of being published by a wishy-washy publisher. While it seems like a solidly researched book and numerous other sources I have found support its conclusions, it is better to leave it off the table for Wikipedia. Brocade River Poems 06:08, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

I have put forward the evidence I have collected and proposed on the Tang talk page that the section regarding courtesans should be amended as the Charles Benn sources that it is currently using seems unreliable in the face of other sources offered. Brocade River Poems 23:37, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

I will try to use the English books and journals you found to complete this part about Tang Courtesan. Charles Benn's book may focus on other functions, so it does not mention much about the prostitution of the courtesan in Pingkang fang, because these courtesans in Pingkang fang do sing, dance, and write poetry, but generally there is more pornographic content and the level of professionalism is not particularly high. Thank you for your search. 清风与明月 (talk) 04:29, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Charles Benn's book has the misfortunate problem of containing no citations and the further reading section only points toward other English sources. There is no way to verify any of the information posited in his book, and he speaks of all courtesans in one sweeping brush, choosing not to distinguish the difference between the lower and the higher even though other contemporary sources have done so. Charles Benn's book is, as far as I am concerned, wholly unreliable where the subject of Pingkang Fang and courtesans are concerned, because so much of what he wrote in that section contradicts what so many other scholars have written. Brocade River Poems 06:10, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Hi!

I noticed looking through the edit history that you made an edit with the message Modify the introduction. Not all geji are artists, just like not all actors can win awards. Change it to female performers and actresses. Actresses refer to singers and dancers, not drama actors. The issue of having sex with men will be added in the later life and performance

This is likely a language issue, as "Performing Artist" is the correct terminology, and is used on Geisha as well. See Performing arts, The performing arts are arts such as music, dance, and drama which are performed for an audience. As you've argued that Geji were specifically women who were employed to sing and dance for entertainment, describing them as "performing artists" as is done on Geisha is correct. Brocade River Poems 06:53, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Indeed, this is a language issue. I added in the introduction, "Although there are sometimes customers who have sex, but many are not prostitutes." There are different types of "Ji" in ancient China. Some gejis do engage in two professions at the same time, but many people in the profession of gejis are not prostitutes. Some people in the profession engage in prostitution, but more are different from prostitutes. 清风与明月 (talk) 08:15, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Zhu Ziqing's essay can be taken as real content. He is also a scholar. He talks about some gejis or singing girls who were active on their own after the disappearance of the geji system in the Republic of China. Although these singing girls who were active on their own had no cultural cultivation, not all of them were engaged in prostitution. In his article, he also talked about the women who were active on their own in this area, including prostitutes, gejis or singing girls. It is true that some gejis were engaged in prostitution. What I mean is that they generally did not engage in prostitution. I want to say that it means under normal circumstances. 清风与明月 (talk) 08:29, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

The essay that you provided by Zhu Ziqing, unfortunately, cannot be used there. While it is true that he talks about Geji and he is a scholar, the essay which you used cannot be used to state in Wikivoice that Geji were not prostitutes in the lead section per WP:NPOV when there are an abundance of secondary academic sources that say Geji did engage in sexual services.

The essay you are using by Zhu Ziqing clearly states that these are his thoughts. The entire context of the essay preceding that passage is 道德律的力，本来是民众赋予的；在民众的面前，自然更显出它的威严了。我这时一面盼望，一面却感到了两重的禁制：一，在通俗的意义上，接近妓者总算一种不正当的行为；二，妓是一种不健全的职业，我们对于她们，应有哀矜勿喜之心，不应赏玩的去听她们的歌 在众目睽睽之下，这两种思想在我心里最为旺盛。她们暂时压倒了我的听歌的盼望，这便成就了我的灰色的拒绝。那时的心实在异常状态中，觉得颇是昏乱。歌舫去了，暂时宁靖之后，我的思绪又如潮涌了。两个相反的意思在我心头往复：卖歌和卖淫不同，听歌和狎妓不同，又干道德甚事？——但是，但是，她们既被逼的以歌为业，她们的歌必无艺术味的；况她们的身世，我们究竟该同情的。所以拒绝倒也是正办。但这些意思终于不曾撇开我的听歌的盼望。它力量异常坚强；它总想将别的思绪踏在脚下。从这重重的争斗里，我感到了浓厚的不足之感。这不足之感使我的心盘旋不安，起坐都不安宁了。唉！我承认我是一个自私的人！平伯呢，却与我不同。他引周启明先生的诗，“因为我有妻子，所以我爱一切的女人，因为我有子女，所以我爱一切的孩子。”

Translated below:

The strength of the moral law had been given by the people; naturally its majesty was more apparent in their presence. While I was looking forward to it, I felt a twofold inhibition: Firstly, in the popular sense, to approach a prostitute is always an improper act; Secondly, as prostitution is an improper profession, one should not be pleased with them, nor should one listen to their songs in a playful manner. These two ideas flourished in my mind in the full view of the public. They overpowered for the time being my desire to listen to the songs, and this accomplished my gray refusal. At that moment, my heart was in an unusual state, and I was feeling quite confused. After the boat had gone away, and I had been temporarily pacified, again my thoughts were like a tidal wave. My mind went back and forth between two opposite meanings: selling songs is not the same as prostitution, listening to songs is not the same as being intimate with prostitutes, and what does it matter about morality? --Yet, since they are forced to sing for a living, their songs must not be artistic; and we should sympathize with them because of their background. So to refuse is the right thing to do. Yet these meanings did not at last take away from my hope of hearing songs. Its strength was extraordinary; it was seeking to crush other thoughts underfoot. Out of this heavy struggle came to me a strong sense of inadequacy. This feeling of insufficiency made my heart whirl, and I was no longer at peace when I rose or sat down. Alas! I admit that I am a selfish man! But Ping Bo was different from me. He quoted Mr. Zhou Qiming's poem, “Because I have a wife, I love all women; because I have children, I love all children.” )

Him expressing his moral debate about approaching prostitutes and then rationalizing to himself that "selling songs is not the same as prostitution, listening to songs is not the same as being intimate with prostitutes". It isn't sufficient enough as a source to be used to contend that Geji did not engage in prostitution. It is a long passage of self-examination. Per WP:RSCONTEXT Each source must be carefully weighed to judge whether it is reliable for the statement being made in the Wikipedia article and is an appropriate source for that content. and WP:RSAGE newer secondary and tertiary sources may have done a better job of collecting more reports from primary sources and resolving conflicts, applying modern knowledge to correctly explain things that older sources could not have, or remaining free of bias that might affect sources written while any conflicts described were still active or strongly felt., Zhu Ziqing's essay really isn't suitable for the body of the article, let alone the lead.

Please do not re-add Zhu Ziqing's essay. Brocade River Poems 02:58, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Already replied on geji's discussion page 清风与明月 (talk) 13:42, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

WikiProject China Invite

You are invited to participate in WikiProject China, a WikiProject dedicated to developing and improving articles about China.  Brocade River Poems 20:24, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

: Brocade River Poems 20:24, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Kanhopatra (film) moved to draftspace

Thanks for your contributions to Kanhopatra (film). Unfortunately, I do not think it is ready for publishing at this time because it has no sources and there's no evidence of notability. I have converted your article to a draft which you can improve, undisturbed for a while.

Please see more information at Help:Unreviewed new page. When the article is ready for publication, please click on the "Submit your draft for review!" button at the top of the page OR move the page back. CycloneYoris ^talk! 22:55, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Gējì

Good afternoon, 清风与明月. Please make sure you continue discussions on article talk pages, rather than ignoring them to re-add contested content. Your edits to Gējì have had at least one objection; I am not judging your additions as incorrect or inappropriate, but you should not ignore existing and ongoing discussions (#Collaboration on Geji, above, as well as two discussions at Talk:Gējì) by re-adding content to the article. You have previously been notified about edit warring; please heed the advice. If you cannot find a compromise on the article (believing your own edits to be valid is sufficient) then you can consider asking for a WP:3O. MIDI (talk) 12:42, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

They were professional entertainers who sometimes engaged in sexual relation with males,but many are not prostitutes.There are different views on the functions of gejis in ancient China. Other believe that they provided artistic performances and also engaged in prostitution, that they were entertainers and prostitutes

I have now added a different viewpoint. 清风与明月 (talk) 13:33, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Timothy James Brook([加]卜正民)，译者:Fangjun(方骏) (2004).“The Confusions of Pleasure: Commerce and Culture in Ming China(纵乐的困惑：明代的商业与文化)”.Oxford:生活·读书·新知三联书店.ISBN 9787108020062. 清风与明月 (talk) 13:35, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

262-264 清风与明月 (talk) 13:36, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

I mean, sometimes they have sex with men, but many of them are not prostitutes. If there are people who engage in prostitution in the profession, does that mean that everyone is a prostitute? This is obviously not the case.Having sexual relations with men does not necessarily mean prostitution. 清风与明月 (talk) 13:39, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

The point of disagreement between me and the other party is whether the gejis can be directly understood as prostitution, and whether all of them are prostitutes, or whether they are part-time prostitutes or sex workers. I think that just because some people are prostitution, it does not mean that all of them are prostitution. Many of them are not part-time prostitutes or sex workers while performing arts. 清风与明月 (talk) 13:47, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: Kanhopatra (film) (September 2)

Your recent article submission to Articles for Creation has been reviewed. Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time. The reason left by KylieTastic was: Please check the submission for any additional comments left by the reviewer. You are encouraged to edit the submission to address the issues raised and resubmit after they have been resolved.

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KylieTastic (talk) 18:40, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Insan Aur Aadmi

The article Insan Aur Aadmi has been proposed for deletion because it appears to have no references. Under Wikipedia policy, this biography of a living person will be deleted after seven days unless it has at least one reference to a reliable source that directly supports material in the article.

If you created the article, please don't be offended. Instead, consider improving the article. For help on inserting references, see Referencing for beginners, or ask at the help desk. Once you have provided at least one reliable source, you may remove the {{prod blp/dated}} tag. Please do not remove the tag unless the article is sourced. If you cannot provide such a source within seven days, the article may be deleted, but you can request that it be undeleted when you are ready to add one. Folkezoft (talk) 19:30, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Insan Aur Aadmi

The article Insan Aur Aadmi has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

Fails WP:NF I believe. I might be wrong about this. I can't find anything information about this film aside from results for the similarly named Aadmi Aur Insaan. Some recent articles make a passing mention of this film but nothing solid.

While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, pages may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the page to address the issues raised. Removing {{proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. Limmidy (talk) 22:21, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

This movie does exist, but there is not much information. You posted two movies. 清风与明月 (talk) 05:04, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x8oga2d 清风与明月 (talk) 05:07, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

https://pakmag.net/film/details.php?pid=963 清风与明月 (talk) 05:09, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt14230354/ 清风与明月 (talk) 05:13, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

These are all the information about the existence of this movie, and the original film. But no such reference can be cited on Wikipedia, but this and Aadmi Aur Insaan are really two different movies. 清风与明月 (talk) 05:15, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

I understand they're different films, but it's unclear as to why the film is notable enough for an article. Limmidy (talk) 19:14, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: Kanhopatra (film) (September 3)

Your recent article submission to Articles for Creation has been reviewed. Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time. The reason left by Utopes was:  The comment the reviewer left was: Please check the submission for any additional comments left by the reviewer. You are encouraged to edit the submission to address the issues raised and resubmit after they have been resolved.

• If you would like to continue working on the submission, go to Draft:Kanhopatra (film) and click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window.
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Utopes _{(talk / cont)} 06:02, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: Kanhopatra (film) (September 3)

Your recent article submission to Articles for Creation has been reviewed. Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time. The reason left by GrabUp was:  The comment the reviewer left was: Please check the submission for any additional comments left by the reviewer. You are encouraged to edit the submission to address the issues raised and resubmit after they have been resolved.

• If you would like to continue working on the submission, go to Draft:Kanhopatra (film) and click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window.
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GrabUp - Talk 07:39, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: Kanhopatra (film) (September 3)

Your recent article submission to Articles for Creation has been reviewed. Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time. The reason left by IntentionallyDense was: Please check the submission for any additional comments left by the reviewer. You are encouraged to edit the submission to address the issues raised and resubmit after they have been resolved.

• If you would like to continue working on the submission, go to Draft:Kanhopatra (film) and click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window.
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IntentionallyDense (talk) 23:45, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

ANI Notice

There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you.Brocade River Poems 03:51, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Insan Aur Aadmi moved to draftspace

Thanks for your contributions to Insan Aur Aadmi. Unfortunately, I do not think it is ready for publishing at this time because it needs more sources to establish notability. I have converted your article to a draft which you can improve, undisturbed for a while.

Please see more information at Help:Unreviewed new page. When the article is ready for publication, please click on the "Submit your draft for review!" button at the top of the page OR move the page back. — Saqib (talk I contribs) 11:25, 5 September 2024 (UTC)