Wikipedia talk:In the news

Add undisputed boxing champions

Since 2007 with the inclusion of the WBO titles, there has been 10 occurences, making such achievments extremely rare. Rarer are articles about the fights that led to it. SpacedFarmer (talk) 11:10, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Looking at the last occurrences, there have been nineteen people getting the achievement, including five doing it twice in different weight classes. The last times were May 2024 (Oleksandr Usyk, male heavyweight), March 2024 (Seniesa Estrada, female minimumweight), December 2023 (Naoya Inoue, male super bantamweight), November 2023 (Katie Taylor, female light welterweight). This seems to be too common to deserve a front-page blurb each time. Chaotıċ Enby (talk · contribs) 12:35, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

My suggestion is articles about fights. That'll reduce it to size. SpacedFarmer (talk) 12:47, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

The fact that not all of them have had articles created for them doesn't make those that do have articles any more notable. Chaotıċ Enby (talk · contribs) 13:05, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Wait. Nominate this if one of the boxers in the bout isn't Caucasian and is posted. This is not recent, but Oscar De La Hoya vs. Manny Pacquiao (Hispanic American vs. Filipino) was declined at ITN, then Manny Pacquiao vs. Ricky Hatton was approved (Filipino vs. Caucasian British), then Floyd Mayweather vs. Manny Pacquiao (African American vs. Filipino) was dragged into the mud of ITN/C but was eventually posted. These examples are years ago, and boxing has went down in significance since then (probably not as niche as rowing, but who knows?), so let's see if it's an undisputed women's bantamweight title that's up for grabs and we'll see similar levels of support. Howard the Duck (talk) 14:09, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Note: Cited examples were not unification bouts, but in theory, unification bouts, more so for men, are rare, and should be more "important" than these. Howard the Duck (talk) 14:15, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Not quite boxing or unifications, but three undisputed UFC bantamweight championship bouts (featuring three women, two men and one former boxer) were shot down back in the day (UFC 168, UFC 173 and UFC 193); two were closed and one just stopped. InedibleHulk (talk) 21:03, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Now that Usyk holds the title, I guess we could see more such titles, but honestly, this is something that literally hadn't happened in nearly 24 years. I'm not sure holding the undisputed heavyweight championship is common enough to count as "recurring". Perhaps we can revisit this idea if someone else takes the title after Usyk. DarkSide830 (talk) 16:23, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Changes in heads of state ITNR

Presently our ITNR for changes of heads of states says "Changes in the holder of the office which administers the executive of their respective state/government, in those countries which qualify under the criteria above, as listed at List of current heads of state and government except when that change was already posted as part of a general election."
In the past I am certain that we have presumed that table to be correct, and importantly the green marked cells is the position of the govt that holds ultimate power over the executive branch and is not merely symbolic or similar. But in the discussion of the helicopter crash that killed the president of Iran, there is debate whether the succession of the president qualifies, an issue that would apply to many other Middle Eastern and Asian states. On the case of Iran, while it is true the president oversees the executive branch, it is also the case that this position is largely ceremonial with the Supreme Leader being the one that not only has full control on the govt but is also heavily involved in the selection of the president. As such the table above correctly marks the Supreme Leader as the main holder of power in Iran, so their succession would clearly be ITNR. But one can also argue because the president does administer the exec branch that they are the office that ITNR would recognize for succession. (that doesn't mean non ITNR succession couldnt be nominated, they'd just have to viewed on their terms)
I swear we've used the green cells in the table as the delimited here in the past for determining ITNR for appropriate cases of succession, but I can't find firm discussion on this. I think we should see what the opinions are on this and if there's a clear consensud for one approach over another, document that on ITNR. — Masem (t) 19:53, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

I feel like there was a recent discussion about this on this talk page. But maybe it was about changing the "elections" portion of ITNR and not specifically about succession. Natg 19 (talk) 20:30, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

For the most part, I think the code is coloured correctly. Iran is just a bit exceptional, as a theocracy, with a "supreme" level of management. This bonus level or its boss' secret powers to disqualify candidates don't make the elected executive position ceremonial, though. The President of Iran (even acting) has a lot of day-to-day business on his plate that someone like my king or his supreme leader does not. Major decisions will fall in line with the upper echelon's master plan, of course, but that's a sign of unity, not weakness.

If I suggested otherwise at our talk at the nom, I don't care about blurbing the change; several of the linked articles in the existing blurb already cover it. I also don't think Khameini's shading or lack thereof will be substantial when the time comes; people will vote as it suits them.

I was just trying to make the underlying facts clear. A lot of Iranian governance, foreign and domestic, is routinely obfuscated and warped by the American, British and Israeli media, while much Iranian media is censored in those bubbles. Combined with its bona fide strangeness and losses in translation which affect all "other" languages, I can't and won't blame anyone for missing some key points earlier and wish you all well in your table endeavours. InedibleHulk (talk) 03:44, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Personally, if we're blurbing a president's death, I think that would make the office notable enough to mention the succession of the office. DarkSide830 (talk) 16:10, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

The hypothetical, if a high ranking but not head or state nor head of executive ( such as a cabinet member) died in a helicopter crash, we'd still cover thatthe issue raised in this case is whether the succession to that position falls into ITNR. This crash is a min ITNR entry but meets the requirements for significance, that's no question. But whether we would include the succession once named is what's in question. — Masem (t) 16:22, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Technically, we blurbed a helicopter crash. Without three other notable people, four nobodies and an international search and rescue operation, we'd probably have mostly voted Old Man Dies, Wait for Succession and Per Above. Of course, by singling out Raisi for a photo, it feels like another eulogistic presidential death blurb. InedibleHulk (talk) 10:11, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, if it was just a helicopter crash with no notable people, or say, some low-ranking person that just happened to be notable, we'd likely not have covered that, and the barely notable person getting an RD. That these were high-ranking gov't officials, that's fair enough to include them.

I'm only focused on the succession matter, and in this case, does Raisi's successor fall into the ITNR? The president of Iran may be the top level of the executive of Iran, but it is the Supreme Leader that is fully in control. Same type of situation in North Korea - there is a president that oversees the government branch but it is clearly Kim Jong Un that controls everything, and that's the position that would be ITNR. That's why the green cells in that table are the ones we have focused on in the past when it comes to the succession ITNR - those are the offices that control the executive if not more. Masem (t) 12:07, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

I know you're focused, you keep asking me. And I keep telling you, yes, by the current guidelines, a proposed blurb seeking to recognize the new President of Iran would qualify as a change in the head of government that administers the executive, thus be entitled to a green-shaded nomination box and all it entails. But nobody's proposed such a blurb. As long as that keeps up, you don't have to worry about it. InedibleHulk (talk) 17:23, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Per WP:WPNOTRS, it's well-established that "Wikipedia articles (and Wikipedia mirrors) in themselves are not reliable sources for any purpose". The list in question is remarkably lacking in citations for its entries and so seems especially weak. See also WP:OR. Andrew🐉(talk) 17:35, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Both the Government of Iran and President of Iran have sourced material making it clear the president is mostly ceremonial with the Supreme Leader having full control of the executive and other branches of govt there. I don't doubt the table here, given the usual editors on it. Masem (t) 12:01, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Those Wikipedia articles are not reliable either. Having browsed some book-length sources such as The Quest for Authority in Iran: A History of The Presidency, it seems apparent that the role is not mostly ceremonial. The President is elected by the general population and so this gives them significant political standing. But there is then a tension with the Supreme Leader who functions like a powerful monarch. What then happens depends on the individuals and their policies and many books have been written on how this has worked out such as Iran in the World: President Rouhani’s Foreign Policy. Reducing this to a one-size-fits-all coloured box with zero citations is obviously inadequate. Andrew🐉(talk) 22:19, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

5 news items

Currently there's 5 news items, but it frequently fluctuates between 4 or 5. I feel it's best to have 5 news items permanently displayed as it gives more time for important news items to be visible. For instance, a series of sporting events in quick succession can easily bump important international news off the front page. Harizotoh9 (talk) 10:52, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

The number of items can vary due to WP:ITNBALANCE.—Bagumba (talk) 11:14, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

• The number should vary with the freshness and significance of the items. If there's lots of high impact news then we should just take more space, as needed. Note that DYK increased their standard size from 8 to 9 items recently. They didn't consult any other sections or worry about balance because that's not a significant issue or the responsibility of any particular section. If there's some main page format issue, that's best handled by WP:ERRORS which covers the entire main page. Andrew🐉(talk) 07:00, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

  Bulleted items (ITN, DYK, SA) are easier to handle than FA which is entirely in prose. ITN has blurbs that stay there for days (DYK stays for hours, and SA stays for a day); this means ITN is the most flexible among the 4 Main Page sections in adjusting its length to compensate with the other sections. Howard the Duck (talk) 07:39, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

  The reality is that the community promotes ITN blurbs so infrequently that the bottom items are typically over a week old as it is. —Bagumba (talk) 09:58, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Consensus to not post 2024 NCAA Division I softball season winners

Posting here as ITN has made a decision to not post 2024 NCAA Division I softball season winners of the World Series. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 06:26, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Football and basketball are already heavily opposed as is. More so softball. Congrats, Sooners, but maybe next time. Howard the Duck (talk) 06:39, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

I'm neutral, but WP:ITNCDONT is arbitrarily enforced here:

Please do not ... Oppose an item just because the event is only relating to a single country.

—Bagumba (talk) 06:48, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Oh yeah. After this, I would be fine removing those from ITN. “In The News” doesn’t actually mean “in the news”, since the first-ever D1 college softball four-peat (called historic by several RS, even The NY Times and ESPN and Associated Press), can’t get posted, despite being the sports news of the week. Btw, this post was basically just to log that NCAA softball’s current consensus is a hard oppose for ITN posting. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 06:48, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

I am following ESPN on social media. All they had all day was the NBA Finals, and even that would see even opposition from the people here. Howard the Duck (talk) 07:07, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

We don't post any college sports, other than the "March Madness", which for some reason sneaked into ITN/R many years ago and has now been grandfathered in. Essentially we regard these as second-tier competitions, akin to the FA Cup in England, and there simply isn't capacity in ITN to post all of them. All four of the major professional US sports championships do get posted every year and there are those who think sporting coverage is already too much.  — Amakuru (talk) 07:09, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

... there simply isn't capacity in ITN to post all of them: Nobody wants all of them posted. But there is some capacity, as currently the bottom UEFA blurb is almost 2-weeks old news. —Bagumba (talk) 08:21, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Just so we're clear: a US source using the term 'four-peat' about a non-US team isn't evidence of 'four-peat' seeing non-US usage. And while we're on international sources, the BBC did not cover the Sooners' victory at all. GenevieveDEon (talk) 12:06, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Proposal: Add NCAA Division I softball tournament (Women's College World Series) as a recurring item

Should the NCAA Division I softball tournament, also known as the Women's College World Series, be added to the ITN/R (list of ITN recurring items)?

The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 07:08, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Quick notes: NCAA D1 Men and Women basketball winners are on ITN/R, so NCAA material is eligible for ITN/R consideration.

Survey

• Yes/Support Addition — NCAA D1 WCWS gets a lot of RS attention. After all, this is “in the news”. For example, the 2024 winner (who won within the last 8 hours) received full national RS media articles from the Associated Press, The New York Times, USA Today, AOL, ESPN and CNN, as well as a ton of smaller/regional RS outlets. The current consensus was to not post the 2024 winner almost entirely because it is not listed already on ITN/R. This RFC, which I started, is not meant to change that consensus, but if something is opposed almost entirely because it isn’t here and not because it isn’t “in the news”, a discussion needs to be had in order to determine if said recurring event should actually be on ITN/R. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 07:08, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose per my comment above. We post a lot of different sports as it is, and adding this would open the door to NCAA football, hockey and baseball wanting in too. I get that college sports are a different beast in the US than it is here in the UK, and generate a lot of interest, but ultimately these are still second-tier and amateur events, with lower significance than the major pro championships.  — Amakuru (talk) 07:18, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

I respect your !vote, but if I may ask, why is opening that door bad? NCAA basketball is already listed on ITN/R. NCAA WCWS Game 1 received a record viewership and by definition it is what this page is intended for: “in the news”. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 07:21, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

The main thing is as I noted, there are already a large number of sporting events at ITN/R, and we're trying to strike a balance here. As you say, it's in the news, but then so are a large number of topics - the media has to publish things day-in-day-out, so there's way more being covered than ITN is designed to handle. We could change our purpose and become more like a "news ticker", churning through any story in the news with an article, but that would require a strong consensus for such a change of purpose. Similarly, despite Bagumba's comment above about the "instructions" regarding stories pertaining to one country, that is something that weighs into consideration for many editors. There are loads of countries in the world, and something that's big in one of them might not necessarily have the global encyclopedic reach to be worthy of inclusion. Ultimately, the decision on whether to include is a subjective one and people will weigh things in their own way. For me, amateur second-tier competitions such as the NCAA, and indeed the university Boat Race over here, which is the closest equivalent maybe and was removed from ITN/R last year, aren't of sufficient interest to a broad audience to rate inclusion. If March Madness were not included yet, I don't think there'd be consensus to add it.  — Amakuru (talk) 09:49, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

It's probably more the case that the "instructions" w.r.t one country are in practice more nuanced than they are actually written. In which case, as written, they have been oversimplified.—Bagumba (talk) 10:05, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. Some events pertaining to one country, e.g. national elections, are eminently postable. Others aren't.  — Amakuru (talk) 11:54, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose - Do we have any national non-college softball titles in ITNR already? In any case, there's been a general and IMHO justified opposition to college-level events being ITNR, including removing the Oxford and Cambridge Boat Race, which is one of the most famous rowing events in the world. As for 'fourpeat', it's a stupid word. 'Threepeat' makes tolerable sense because it sounds like 'repeat', but just adding one to it makes gibberish of it. And reliable sources using sensationalist language does not compel us to do so. If a lot of newspapers referred to a heatwave as a 'scorcher', we would still call it a heatwave. GenevieveDEon (talk) 11:35, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
• Comment Wikipedia talk:In the news/Archive 95 § Add College Football Playoff National Championship to ITNR failed in 2023, with the close stating In order to consider this for ITN/R, there has to be a record of regular posting in the recent past ... However, it's potentially circular if opposing arguments at the recent softball nom cited its absence on ITNR (see #"It's not in ITNR" below).—Bagumba (talk) 08:17, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Agreed, so see my !vote below. GenevieveDEon (talk) 11:35, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

"It's not in ITNR"

It's a given that an ITN candidate not on WP:ITNR needs to have it's notability vetted. However, not already being on ITNR is not a valid reason to oppose. Some ideas to avoid these arguments are:

1. Add this to WP:ITNCDONT.
2. Have {{ITN candidate}} put a standard notice explicitly stating that this is not an ITNR item—preclude !voters from needing to repeat this—while also stating that its absence from ITNR is not an acceptable reason to oppose.
3. Not a problem. Do nothing.

Other ideas? —Bagumba (talk) 08:40, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

• Support #1 - this should definitely be on ITNCDONT - arguing against things because they're not on ITNR is a major source of inertia and institutional bias. I'm probably guilty of it myself from time to time, but that doesn't make it OK. GenevieveDEon (talk) 11:37, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
• Support #1, definitely not the point of ITNR (also, while we're at it, I wouldn't be opposed to also adding "but we posted/didn't post X which was less/more newsworthy!" to WP:ITNCDONT). Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 12:19, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Add first launch of crewed spaceflights by a new entity

The first launches of crewed spaceflights by a new entity (country or private company) are inherently notable and should be added to ITNR. This would only apply to the first time a country or company has launched a crewed spacecraft, future further launches wouldn't be inherently notable. For further context/elaboration see Nottheking's comment from this discussion, which this proposal is based on. Happily888 (talk) 08:52, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose - I don't think 'inherently notable' means anything useful here. I also think spaceflight is overrepresented at ITNR already. And as noted immediately above, I definitely don't think worthy stories should lose out for not being on ITNR, so a lot of these cases might well be worth posting - but I don't think that there's anything inherent or inevitable about that. GenevieveDEon (talk) 11:40, 7 June 2024 (UTC)