Talk:World War II casualties of the Soviet Union/Archive 2

Someone needs to fix the archiving

See above. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 13:27, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

The Russian government has the number of dead at 27 million for World War II

IN 2017 Russian government has the number of dead at 27 million for World War II military and civilian https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqZKWZKFUJw&index=143&t=9s&list=PLoa6E23sdMt-S2Y3g_Bz9WNQKySB3hNn4 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jack90s15 (talk • contribs) 23:51, 7 October 2018 (UTC)

Russian government has the number of dead at 26.6 million "Сегодня можно с определенной долей вероятности констатировать, что потери Советского Союза составили 26,6 млн человек, в том числе потери Вооруженных Сил составили 8 668 400 военнослужащих." Google translation Today it is possible with a certain probability to ascertain that the losses of the Soviet Union amounted to 26.6 million people[1] The figure of 27 million is an approximation that was rounded up by RT News--Woogie10w (talk) 01:45, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

Jack90s15 (talk) 02:41, 8 October 2018 (UTC)ok I took a look at it and thanks for rephrasing it for me!

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

• Lydia Litvyak.JPG

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 21:07, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

Input

Woogie10w I want to Nominate this page for Good article Status, the rules says if i did not contribute a lot i need to talk with people that have. Do you think the page needs any more improvements be for I Nominate it

Jack you can review the article and make improvements you feel are necessary. You have the Krivosheev study, below are Russian academic sources. Google will translate them for you. It may take some time and patience, but you will see the war through Russian eyes.

{cite web |url=http://www.ecsocman.edu.ru/data/419/925/1216/014.RYBAKOVSKIY.pdf |first=L L |last=Rybakovsky |title=Casualties of the USSR in the Great Patriotic War (In Russian) |publisher=Sotsiologicheskie issiedovaniya |year=2000 |issue=6 |ref=harv}}

• Rybakovsky, L L (2001). "The Great Patriotic War Russian Human Losses (In Russian)" (PDF). Sotsiologicheskie issiedovaniya. {{cite web}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)
• Rybakovsky, L L (2000). "Л.Л. РЫБАКОВСКИЙЛЮДСКИЕ ПОТЕРИ СССР В ВЕЛИКОЙ ОТЕЧЕСТВЕННОЙ ВОЙНЕ (Casualties of the USSR in the Great Patriotic War)" (PDF). Russian Sotsiologicheskie issiedovaniya. {{cite web}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)
• Shevyakov, A. A. (1991). "Gitlerovski genotsid na territoriyakh SSR" (PDF). Sotsiologicheskie issiedovaniya. {{cite web}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help) This article by a researcher at the Russian Academy of Science is a brief summary of the work of the Soviet Extraordinary State Commission.
• Shevyakov, A. A. (1992). "Zhertvy sredi mirnogo nasseleniya v gody otechestvennoi voiny" (PDF). Sotsiologicheskie issiedovaniya. {{cite web}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help) This article by a researcher at the Russian Academy of Science gives a detailed breakdown by locality of civilian losses in the occupied USSR based on the reports of the Soviet Extraordinary State Commission
• НАСЕЛЕНИЕ Советского Союза 1922-1991 [2] is the ADK study. Pages 73-79 cover the war

Let me know if you have questions. --Woogie10w (talk) 18:40, 19 June 2019 (UTC)

For example here is a example of what you will find [3]Stalingrad region Unfortunately, due to unsatisfactory work regional CPD data table is completely untrue. Not even numerous places of mass destruction are shown. Due to the biggest failure in the battle for Stalingrad, the enemy brutally cracked down on the civilian population, and on prisoners of war as fiercely as in any other area. Therefore, in reality, in our opinion, the number of exterminated civilians and prisoners of war (for them, the enemy did not have transportation sufficient opportunities) was several times more --Woogie10w (talk) 18:54, 19 June 2019 (UTC)

Thank you Woogie10w for Giving me some more info I will look over everything in the article to see if it needs any tweaking or updates to links.Jack90s15 (talk) 21:17, 19 June 2019 (UTC)

@Woogie10w. I looked very quickly. There is way too much emphasis on Krivisheev data. Perhaps more should be said how Sokolov came to his number. My very best wishes (talk) 17:19, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

@My very best wishes: @Woogie10w: Sokolov said 40 million died from the war it coves that number all ready on the page https://day.kyiv.ua/en/article/topic-day/declassified-death-toll-42-millionJack90s15 (talk) 17:44, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

So, according to this historian, the data by Krivosheev is basically a fabrication. My very best wishes (talk) 01:26, 13 September 2019 (UTC)

Woogie10w, My very best wishes, it seems that Jack90s15 went ahead and nominated the article to be a GA that same day, despite the implication that it needed significant work before it was ready to be nominated, and based on comments on this page, the article still has significant issues. Is that an accurate reading of the situation? If so, then the nomination should not have been made, and the article currently has a ways to go to meet the GA criteria. Since Jack90s15 has been blocked indefinitely, it's pretty much up to the significant authors of the article to decide here whether the article meets (or is close to meeting) the GA criteria, and also whether any of you would be willing to work on the article in response to the eventual GA reviewer should the review remain up. If it is ready and someone is willing to make any necessary edits, then the nomination will be left open; it isn't ready or no one is willing to work on it if it is, then the nomination will be removed. Thank you very much for your assistance here. BlueMoonset (talk) 06:21, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

Excessive tables

[4] - this is not breakdown by republics (such breakdown is included as another table), but by "ethnicity". Why the ethnicity is so important? What it tells you? My very best wishes (talk) 17:45, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

@My very best wishes: Its showing the reader the breakdown for the different ethnicity's who died from his estimate. and my Bad ethnicity's not republics and yes it is disputed but the page also shows the other estimates that have been madeJack90s15 (talk) 17:53, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

You did not answer my question. Why do you think the ethnicity is so important? What it tells you or any other reader? My very best wishes (talk) 17:57, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

@My very best wishes: It shows the reader the breakdown of what the fallen soldiers were since not all them were Russian. I've come across history papers and newspapers that say 11 million Russian soldiers died things like thatJack90s15 (talk) 18:08, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

@My very best wishes: Mostly in school I have come across itJack90s15 (talk) 21:04, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

But is is already discussed a lot in section "Estimates_of_losses_by_individual_Republics". Regardless, I checked the Table in the source, and it tells (footnote 49) these are NOT numbers of losses of people who belonged to different ethnic groups. This is simply a percentage of people of different ethnicity in the Soviet Army at the time ([ 49 ] В установленной Табелем срочных донесений форме именного списка на погибших, умерших, пропавших без вести и попавших в плен указание национальности павших не предусматривалось. Приведенные в таблице сведения о потерях по национальному составу получены с помощью коэффициентов пропорциональности (в процентах), которые рассчитаны на основе донесений о списочной численности военнослужащих Красной Армии по социально-демографическим признакам по состоянию на 1 января 1943, 1944 и 1945 гг.). The table is misleading and therefore should be removed. My very best wishes (talk) 22:24, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

@My very best wishes: In the form of urgent reports established by the Table of Urgent Reports on the dead, dead, missing and captured, the indication of the nationality of the deceased was not provided. The data on losses by national composition given in the table are obtained with the help of proportionality coefficients (in percents), which are calculated on the basis of reports on the number of Red Army servicemen according to socio-demographic characteristics as of January 1, 1943, 1944 and 1945. -- CAMO. F. 13-A, op. 3029, д. 130, 227, 229, 276. what do you think about that table? @Woogie10w:Jack90s15 (talk) 00:19, 13 September 2019 (UTC)

@My very best wishes: @Woogie10w: what if we redo the chart to match the Source? Just a thought Jack90s15 (talk) 00:23, 13 September 2019 (UTC)

It tells this is simply a percentage of people of different ethnicity in the Soviet Army. Put it on the page Soviet Army if you wish. Overall, the book by Krivosheev (where this Table comes from) does not look like a good study. Rather, this is something performed by the former top general on the order from his superiors. Speaking of this edit, did not you notice that most part of this page is already dedicated to a single view? Krivosheev is just one of many other historians noticed on this page. His estimates must be mentioned, just like all others - per WP:NPOV. My very best wishes (talk) 00:58, 13 September 2019 (UTC)

• @My very best wishes: The other estimates that go up to 40 million are discussed on the page already
• Because it's showing the reader his response to the critics @Woogie10w: explained how sometimes people try to make the page just an anti Krivosheev's page I am not saying you are
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jack90s15#Your_deletion
• I was just showing the historian you mentioned the number he uses is mentioned also on the page the 40 million figure
• Jack90s15 (talk) 01:57, 13 September 2019 (UTC)

• Of course they are on the page already. The problem is different. Firs of all, it appears that this whole page is about views by Krivosheev, including criticism of his views. Just description of his views alone (with tables) take around 50% of the page. That is wrong - see WP:DUE. This needs to be significantly shorten. Secondly, providing so many tables with numbers from Krivosheev makes "his" numbers to appear essentially a statement of fact. But this is not a fact, but merely a view, and a widely disputed one, at least by researchers in Russia. Some of "his" tables should be either removed to restore the balance or described more clearly as not a statement of fact. My very best wishes (talk) 13:57, 13 September 2019 (UTC)

• with the charts its showing the reader what the official estimate is but then it also shows Jack90s15 (talk) 15:25, 13 September 2019 (UTC)

• What other Scholars think about the estimate and the reasons why they don't think it's right

• @My very best wishes: what do you mean described more clearly? maybe we can think of something together on this Jack90s15 (talk) 15:25, 13 September 2019 (UTC)

High end claim 43 million dead ?

Not outlined in the text who came to this result. Was that Rybakovsky, or a certain Sokolov named in his russian text. And is a breakdown of this number available (e. g.: how many civilian death, what have others forgotten to take into consideration). Eventually, does this number perhaps include not-born babies during war ? Thank you. --129.187.244.19 (talk) 10:29, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

"USSR had casualties because Stalin ignored warnings and was not prepared"

This anti-Soviet post-1950s revisionist talking point is all over this article, even though this claim is completely uncited and this very article counters that very claim with cited sources stating that USSR casualties were due to lack of medical technology and the fact that Nazis ignored the 1929 Geneva Convention and murdered USSR prisoners of war, which they considered "Untermensch" via their "General Plan Ost" which called for eliminating all Soviets and taking over the USSR to establish German colonies. This article needs a major cleanup. 2603:7000:8C01:1513:E1BC:259F:67A8:259 (talk) 15:12, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

The contrasting factors/theses listed above are not mutually exclusive.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 00:24, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

Russian v Soviet

I feel this article uses these words interchangeably in places. Eg there is a whole section on “Russian sources”. Are these Russian language? From the Russian soviet republic or Russian Federation? Or simply Soviet? The USSR (and both its casualties and scholarship) was not homogenously Russian but also Ukrainian, Georgian, etc etc). BobFromBrockley (talk) 21:18, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

How Krivosheev’s Calculations Came into Being

Professor, D.A. and WWII veteran Feodor Setin has made a big contribution of documents to The State Archive of the Russian Federation (GARF). While collecting those documents at The Central Archives of of the USSR Defense Ministry he met and had many contacts with a group of officers mostly colonels engaged in investigation of classified data on military losses of the Soviet Armed Forces. They have admitted that earlier there was another group having discovered over 30 million death toll, a figure non-acceptable to higher authorities. “Too many”, they said. Obviously it was a group of Makhmut Gareev and Grigoriy Krivosheev which has produced an acceptable calculation. Въ 109.252.188.39 (talk) 15:41, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

CDMA Veterans have Counted 23.45 Million Dead and Missing Servicemen

The Article contains some outdated data by Sergey Il'enkov of 1996 and 2001. I propose to replace them by his figures of 2021 published in May 2021. The passage may look this way. Colonel Sergey Il'enkov, Head of the MD Archive Service, and Vladimir Eliseev, both long-term employees of the Central Defense Ministry Archive, processed the CDMA card index for many years and counted 23.5 million cards, and excluding duplicates, 21.3 million people, whose individual death is somehow documented. It does not reflect materials from other departmental archives (for example, the naval one, where there are about 150 thousand people in a similar card index), so we can talk about 21.45 million killed or dead military personnel.

I think to ad this to the beginning of the article, as the most recent information. Въ 109.252.188.39 (talk) 12:04, 25 May 2022 (UTC).

References