Talk:Vietnamese people

Mainland China

The People's Republic of China doesn't register foreign ethnicities, even regarding foreigners naturalised into PRC citizenship citizens of Mainland China who are of foreign origin are classified using yet another separate label: "foreigners naturalised into the Chinese citizenship" (外国人入中国籍). However, if a newly naturalised citizen already belongs to a recognised existing group among the 56 ethnic groups, then he or she is classified into that ethnic group rather than the special label. (copied from "Ethnic minorities in China"), which would mean that a Vietnamese national would not have their ethnicity recorded unless they would naturalise and classify themselves as "Jing people". I can't find any reference in the source that the Vietnamese living in China are specifically "ethnic Vietnamese" or "Vietnamese people" (more like "Chinese people" than "Han Chinese" by comparison). I think that some of the people adding these numbers just see "Vietnamese people" in the title and assume that the "Vietnamese people" talked about in these sources are the same as the concept of "Vietnamese people" (known in Vietnam as "Kinh people" / "City people") where the name might confuse the editors because the same name is used for two completely different concepts (one being legal the other anthropological). --Donald Trung (talk) 21:43, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

And I just identified more bad sources for these numbers this way, the French source talks about the "Vietnamese community in France" particularly relating to Vietnamese New Year (which isn't even an ethnic exclusive event within Vietnam but it doesn't state directly that it refers to Vietnamese nationals so it is not a bad source like the others but bot good either), the German source specifically talks about "migration background" utilising the same language and classifications as the Dutch source. The Australian source likewise also talks about "country of origin" of migrants. The Canadian source is stronger as it differentiates Hmong people from Vietnamese and Laotian and specifically lists "Cambodian (Khmer)" as an ethnicity indicating that the Canadians do differentiate better, but doesn't seem to mention any other "sub-national" ethnic minority other than the "Karen people" while using terms like "ethnic Singaporeans", "Malaysians", and "Taiwanese" all of which are references to multi-ethnic regions. I don't see a strong case that most of these sources even specifically talk about Kinh people as opposed to Vietnamese nationals and their descendants unless we have to assume that every reference to "Vietnamese people" should always refer to Kinh people. --Donald Trung (talk) 21:52, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

@Donald Trung: It's true that those numbers do not specifically refer to ethnic Vietnamese (Kinh people). However, I believe the majority of Vietnamese citizens immigrating to Japan, South Korea or some Nordic countries - you name it, is ethnic Vietnamese. Of course, it is always possible to add ~ or > to indicate an approximate value. Furthermore, you should be aware that many of these numbers do not necessarily reflect the scale of migration (and also are not always up to date). I mean, they tend not to take illegal immigrants into account, right? My solution is to add approximate sign or use round numbers. You can see most numbers here are approximation already (France ~400,000, Australia >300,000, Russia 150,000, Laos 122,000, Thailand 100,000, Czech Republic 90,000, Malaysia 80,000, Poland 60,000-80,000, United Kingdom 50,000-100,000) --Ltn12345 (talk) 02:26, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

@Ltn12345:, I agree that the majority of the "Vietnamese people" living in other countries are most likely Kinh people. The problem is with the terminology of this page itself, the "Chinese people" and "Han Chinese" people is actually superbly illustrated with how it should be done. The problem here remains that people assume that whenever someone talks about "Vietnamese people" in another source they think that it means the same as "ethnic Vietnamese people", but because Vietnamese is a nationality a lot of sources will not make an ethnic distinction, kind of how "English" and "British" people aren't the same but everyone in the latter is included in the former.

Splitting this article up in a "Vietnamese people" akin to "Chinese people" and "Kinh people" / "Kinh Vietnamese" like "Han Chinese" would solve this confusion. I've seen many rename requests of this page fail because "Vietnamese people" as a term has more results, but that fails to mention that they might be talking about a different subject altogether. Like how when someone mentions "Lang Lang is Chinese" they mean his nationality as he is an ethnic Manchu, but most foreigners won't make that distinction. Okinawans are also considered "Japanese people" but not "Yamato people", no idea why this solution wasn't implemented with this page.

I do disagree to changing the numbers to approximations, as the sources are fine for "Vietnamese people" as a broad term, but not the ethnic group this article talks about. --Donald Trung (talk) 18:18, 2 May 2021 (UTC)

@Donald Trung: I don't think we need to create a new article. In many cases, there is only one article (such as Koreans, Japanese people, Filipinos, French people, Turkish people, Ukrainians, Hungarians or Armenians). It's still possible to start an entirely new one, but I suggest adding a notice or create a disambiguation page like Bulgarians (disambiguation) or Ethnic Japanese --Ltn12345 (talk) 02:52, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

Ltn12345, I didn't see this argument until now but I think that your argument misses the point, "Ethnic Japanese" redirects to a number of pages and Japanese people specifically says "Depending on the context, the term ethnic Japanese (日本民族, Nihon minzoku) may be limited or not to mainland Japanese people, specifically the Yamato (as opposed to Ryukyuan and Ainu people)." Which also applies here but is a level of nuance not mentioned in this article. Likewise your other examples conflate nationality with ethnicity again (although people can be members of multiple ethnic groups in different contexts), for example Filipino people "Filipinos (Tagalog: Mga Pilipino) are the people who are citizens of or native to the Philippines. The majority of Filipinos today come from various Austronesian ethnolinguistic groups, all typically speaking either Filipino, English, and/or other Philippine languages. Currently, there are more than 185 ethnolinguistic groups in the Philippines; each with its own language, identity, culture, and history." doesn't even call it an ethnic group, rather articles like Tagalog people, Visayans, Etc. talk about the specific ethnic groups. Turkish people state: "Article 66 of the Turkish Constitution defines a "Turk" as: "Anyone who is bound to the Turkish state through the bond of citizenship." While the legal use of the term "Turkish" as it pertains to a citizen of Turkey is different from the term's ethnic definition".
Again, all the examples you brought up generally explain nuance but this article acts as if "Kinh" and "Vietnamese" are always synonymous. This is also why that Infobox makes no sense as any person living with a Vietnamese passport in the Netherlands is regarded as "Vietnamese", this includes ethnic Taï immigrants from the Lai Châu Province and Hoa people living there. The "WP:COMMONNAME" argument doesn't work this way either as most proponents I've seen using it assume that whenever an English-language source mentions "Vietnamese people" that they mean Kinh people, but as there simply isn't written as much online about the ethnic minorities of Vietnam as there is about Vietnam in general this makes sense, likewise people use the term Chinese people way more than Han Chinese but these are distinct articles for a reason, but one can easily claim "WP:COMMONNAME" for this case as well. — Donald Trung (talk) 10:49, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

This article also randomly switches between Vietnam-wide demographics and Kinh-specific topics. For example the top two (2) sections are specifically only about the Kinh but the "Religion" section is about the general religious demographics of Vietnam and the "Diaspora" section just uses the number of Overseas Vietnamese recorded which makes no distinction between ethnic groups (only a handful of countries recognise some ethnic minorities, for example Hmong Americans, of which most are Lao). This article is all over the place because it just assumes that there's no distinction between "Vietnamese" and "Kinh" in any context. --Donald Trung (talk) 10:55, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 April 2022

Please change

"The Vietnamese people (Vietnamese: người Việt, lit. 'Viet people') or Kinh people (Vietnamese: người Kinh) are a Southeast Asian ethnic group originally native to modern-day Northern Vietnam and Southern China. The native language is Vietnamese, the most widely spoken Austroasiatic language. Its vocabulary was influenced by Chinese early on. During the French colonial era, French was an official language in Vietnam. Afterwards, the Vietnamese language codified in the Latin alphabet emerged. Vietnamese Kinh people account for just over 85.32% of the population of Vietnam in the 2019 census, and are officially known as Kinh people (người Kinh) to distinguish them from the other minority groups residing in the country such as the Hmong, Cham or Muong. The Vietnamese are one of the four main groups of Vietic speakers in Vietnam, the others being the Muong, Thổ and Chứt people. They are related to the Gin or the Jing people, a Vietnamese ethnic group in China."

to

"The Vietnamese people (Vietnamese: người Việt, lit. 'Viet people') or Kinh people (Vietnamese: người Kinh) are a Southeast Asian ethnic group originally native to modern-day North Vietnam and South China. The native language is Vietnamese. Vietnamese Kinh people account for just over 85.32% of the population of Vietnam in the 2019 census, and are officially known as Kinh people (người Kinh) to distinguish them from the other highly related minority groups residing in the country such as the Muong or Chams. The Vietnamese are one of the four main groups of Vietic speakers in Vietnam, the others being the Muong, Thổ and Chứt people." LawfulGood1 (talk) 13:58, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

 Not done for now: Why? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:04, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

Remove/alter the genetics part of the article

There are several changes I want to request and this will involve a consensus first, but most of it will involve deletion rather then changing it. First of all, the "DNA and genetics analysis" component of the article is excessive and creepy. Most of it should be removed, especially the excessive and creepy genetics data that tells zero conclusions, such as the "Genome Sequencing" section, which is just a chockful of unreadable data and numbers that don't belong on Wikipedia, but on an Excel sheet. Second of all, the number of Vietnamese people derived from the illegal practice of "selling" Vietnamese women to failed Taiwanese men and failed South Korean men should be removed. The number of Vietnamese people should be altered to reflect Vietnamese people who are legally there (workers and students for example) and not from the illegal selling of Vietnamese women. Wikipedians may think Taiwan is a country but Taiwan belongs with Mainland China. It should reflect the reality that in fact, South Korea and Taiwan are oppressing the Vietnamese. 203.166.241.41 (talk) 00:00, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 00:14, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

Okay I will remove the edit request and then wait for consensus and put that edit request back in or someone with necessary privileges can change it for me. Thank you for your time. 203.166.241.41 (talk) 00:27, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

There has not been consensus yet due to lack of participants. Can this please be done? I'm putting the edit request back up. I'm not sure if I have done this correctly but here it goes again. 118.211.76.187 (talk) 19:46, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

To establish a consensus, try asking for comment on one of the relevant wikiproject pages, for example Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Ethnic_groups. Of the universe (talk) 17:22, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

The IP is correct. The material was a huge violation of WP:FRINGE. I have excised it. jps (talk) 18:42, 26 December 2022 (UTC) jps (talk) 18:42, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

Adding about Vietnamese population in Indonesia

Please, add about Vietnamese in Indonesia. So, Laura Basuki is Vietnamese-Chinese-Germany-Indonesian descents. Hariman Muhammad (talk) 16:34, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

Fortnite

There has not been consensus yet due to lack of participants. Can this please be done? I'm putting the edit request back up. I'm not sure if I have done this correctly but here it goes again. 118.211.76.187 (talk) 19:46, 3 September 2022 (UTC)[reply] To establish a consensus, try asking for comment on one of the relevant wikiproject pages, for example Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Ethnic_groups. Of the universe (talk) 17:22, 4 September 2022 (UTC)[reply] 2600:8807:4D0A:E500:812F:E406:E541:271C (talk) 02:39, 14 January 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 May 2023

Vietnamese is the name for all ethics in Vietnam. The Vietnamese in this page only included the Kinh people, the most populated ethic race in Vietnam. I wish to give more details about the Vietnamese people. — Preceding unsigned comment added by LordChimera (talk • contribs) 12:32, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

@LordChimera Please provide a source for your claim. DHN (talk) 14:09, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 July 2023

in the sentence: Any attempt of identify an ethnic group in ancient Vietnam is problematic and inaccurate.[90]

change the word "of" to "to" so the English is correct. Manhtuannguyen22 (talk) 02:36, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

 Done RudolfRed (talk) 03:03, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Gender, Race and Computing

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 25 September 2023 and 15 December 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): NavyBear314 (article contribs). Peer reviewers: HelloWorld194, Jut008, Gaquach.

— Assignment last updated by Jut008 (talk) 18:54, 21 November 2023 (UTC)