Talk:Veneto/Archives/2020/February

Map

The map highlights Umbria, not Veneto. Anyone want to change it? I would, but I don't know how, I'm new to this... Now the map is correct.

The mountain on the pic is not the "tre cime". I think they are the "Tofane".

Region

I suggest include a link to the web of the Veneto region public authority.

Popolo reference is wrong?

This veneto entry says:

Veneto is one of the two Italian Regions whose inhabitants are granted the status of «popolo» (i.e. people) with Constitutional Law by the Italian Parliament, the other Region being Sardinia. However only Sardinia has been added the status of "autonomous".

The Sardinia entry says:

Sardinia is one of two Italian regions whose inhabitants have been recognised as a "popolo" (i.e. a distinct people) by the Italian Parliament. The other region is Friuli-Venezia Giulia.

I know nothing of Italian Constitutional law, but these seem to contradict each other. Maybe the Sardinia reference should be to the other autonomous region of Friuli-Venezia Giulia, and to the popolo region of Venezia?

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80.105.81.230 21:34, 10 February 2006 (UTC)Q

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I've deleted the phrase. In Italy there are five autonomus regions, including Friuli-Venezia Giulia and Sardina. Veneto has not a special status. It's peculiar ethnicity is not recognised.

Not correct. Inhabitans of Veneto are granted the status of "popolo" by Constitutional Law number 340 of May 22nd, 1972. Accordingly to this, I'll restore that statement. --Fertuno 17:31, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Either way, i think it needs to be re-worded, right now it is quite confusing...Eru illuv 08:04, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

POV issues

Wikipedia is not a tourist brochure. Plus this is written in pretty bad English. Biruitorul 08:01, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I second that this article is not 'neutral point of view' I the fact that it does resemble a tourism advertisment. All or most of the photos should be removed, leaving users with a link to another web site.

I disagree. I think that the pictures and descriptions provide a good overview of the cities of the region.

You've got to be kidding in claiming this is not neutral because of the pictures. Just because there are beautiful pictures does not make this a "travel brochure!" The pictures provide valuable VISUAL information about Veneto.

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a law recognising Venetian as a regional official language has been approved by the regional Parliament 29/03/2007

Please cite the source. Andres 19:14, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Here is the source: Regional Law no.8, 13 April 2007 (BUR n. 37/2007), from the official website of the Council of Veneto: http://www.consiglioveneto.it/crvportal/leggi/2007/07lr0008.html 82.52.190.99 (talk) 21:46, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Not just Venetian, though. It's clear that Venetan is the intention:

1. La Regione del Veneto, in attuazione degli articoli 2 e 4 dello Statuto, favorisce la tutela e la valorizzazione del patrimonio linguistico veneto.

Art. 2 - Lingua veneta.

1. Le specifiche parlate storicamente utilizzate nel territorio veneto e nei luoghi in cui esse sono state mantenute da comunità che hanno conservato in modo rilevante la medesima matrice costituiscono il veneto o lingua veneta.

2. La Regione del Veneto considera la tutela, la valorizzazione e la promozione del patrimonio linguistico e culturale veneto una questione centrale per lo sviluppo dell'autonomia regionale. 47.32.20.133 (talk) 15:58, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

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"After the Second World War, the Venetian spirit of sacrifice and a family orientation played a major role in an economic recovery that harmoniously blended traditional agriculture, trade, and industry,

"spirit of sacrifice"? "harmoniously blended"? Please someone find a more serious and objective description of how Veneto developed after the war.80.38.96.244 13:31, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Tourism

The article currently states "Veneto's natural, historical, and artistic beauty makes it the most visited region of Italy, with about 60 million tourists every year". How can this be when all of Italy receives about 40 million per year? Mariokempes 19:40, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Also the top of the article says Veneto receives 13.5 million tourists a year. 70.55.11.244 (talk) 00:07, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

The Italian Period

The current section lacks sources and contains some politically-motivated content. The absence of sources is self-explanatory and obvious, but the skewed, contentious content is unwelcome (By the way, was the author suggesting WWI started because the Venetian pope died?- I removed this). Mariokempes (talk) 01:04, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

External links - Veneto

In response to the removal of the links I added to the page of Regione Veneto (as well as from the pages of the other Italian regions): The link I added to the section External links - Veneto had no advertising nor promotional aims, but simply information aims, since it leads to a page where you will find the list of all the parks and protected areas of Veneto. The links you find in the page lead to sub-pages where the Park Authority themselves provide official information on the protected area they manage. All the information you can find on www.parks.it is official information (see the Copyright in each index page of the park, i.e., talking about Veneto, Dolomiti Bellunesi National Park). Parks.it is the most comprehensive and official portal providing information on protected areas in Italy: it depends on Federparchi, the Italian Federation of National Parks and Reserves, joined by most Italian Park Authorities. Moreover, the External links also include the link to the "Tourism Portal web site". I think it would be interesting to inform people about the environmental beauties of the Region they can visit. If you think that "promotion of the environment" means "advertising", well, you are wrong. Italianparks (talk) 11:57, 9 September 2008 (UTC)ItalianparksItalianparks (talk) 11:57, 9 September 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Italianparks (talk • contribs) 10:30, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

GDP

I would suggest to erase the line where it's written actually the third richest region in terms of total GDP (135 billion Euros) after Lombardy and Lazio. Although this can be true, it is offensive towards the people living in Veneto being put after that region called lazio, the region around rome. Infact, while the GDP of VENETO comes from the work of its inhabitants, the GDP of lazio mostly comes from favours by the central state. There are probably more statal workers (those living in italy know why the .......) in rome than in the whole VENETO. They contribute to their regional GDP, but definitely it's us that pay their incomes while they very efficiently contribute to the immense national debt (this is the only case where the term efficiently referred to rome, seems very appropriate to me).

Best Regards

You're probably right, but we need sources supporting what you're telling us... --Checco (talk) 15:11, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Veneto roughly polygonal

A search on these words reveals the geography section to be the same as a "Veneto Inside" article. I presume Veneto Inside copied Wikipedia since Wikipedia gives no credit. It is a bit tedious to try a look something up only to have to wade through a few dozen copies of a bad Wikipedia article before you can find anything meaningful. Even if it is something I wrote it makes me squirm to have to look at it over and over and over. I don't know what the answer to this problem is but I do know the geography section was bad writing so I fixed it. Did I do right or wrong? I guess they copied from us; otherwise we would have to scrap the whole thing. Now I have to find validating refs. You know, I'm of two minds on this. Maybe it was better not to put it in if you couldn't support it and do it right. The ultimate absurdity would be to have someone copy Wikipedia and then have Wikipedia list the copy as a reference. When I see stuff like this I wonder why I bother, but then I have to look at the Internet day in and day out. Regardless of what you want to find, up pops Wikipedia. Never before in the history of man have so many been deluged with so many lies by so few (except possibly for the newpapers). It's the perfect propaganda tool. All we need is for someone to quietly seize control of Wikipedia and that power will achieve what empires failed to do. Anyway, if someone has evidence that we copied Veneto Inside then as I understand it even my altered version has to go.Dave (talk) 00:37, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

PS. I found the basic facts in an Italian reference work. Apparently this section was machine-translated from there or something was doctored up for the Italian Wikipedia from it and machine-translated from Wikipedia. Well. That means the dozen or so versions including a few pdfs, even the touring club pdf, were pirated from it. The best thing to do I think is just look for the basic concepts and rework the whole thing. I think Veneto's important. I see a lot of articles have tags saying we should use material from Italian or French articles, but as often as not that information is unreferenced and suspect. I don't see any merit in that procedure unless the foreign-language article is really up to standard. Translation of a tall tale may improve its credibility but not its truth. Ciao.Dave (talk) 07:44, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

The Veneto Inside Geography section is indeed the original source of the article. Veneto Inside is online since 2008 and the "discover veneto > geography" was born together with the site even if the wayback machine prove the existence of this section from July 2009. You can find that some sentences are very similar or equal, as for example: "the higher plain gravel-strewn and not very fertile and the lower plain rich in water sources and arable terrain". I suggest to put a credit to this site. Luca.favorido (talk) 11:28, 4 November 2016 (UTC) Luca

Religion under demographics

Hello Checo. You said all like articles have religion under demographics. I never heard of such a thing. What a distortion! Have you got some examples? If you don't, I'm changing it.Dave (talk) 08:42, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

I see you made more reversions. Please establish pattern - what articles? I'd like to know - eventually history is going to get split anyway, but for now - fill me in, please. What articles establish this pattern?Dave (talk) 08:46, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm referring to articles about countries, states, regions or cities follow a pattern. You can see United States or Massachusets, for instance. Geography is usually in first place and history right after geography. Obviously there are some differences, for instance see United Kingdom, but religion is almost always a sub-section of demographics, for obvious reasons. --Checco (talk) 09:09, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Well I see what you mean about United Kingdom. Please note however that it has a reference to a main article so the historical material is limited to a paragraph, a long one, but limited. Much more is said in Veneto and it appears to split the modern material in an unorganized fashion. However I think I just shot myself in the foot. After the history has its own section there will not be much there either. So, maybe we better leave it. More important is the writing and support with references. True, a lot of articles have a historical intro, but as I say that is only where the history is brief and serves to introduce rather than interrupt. As for the religion under demographics, can you give me some instances, as it seems really peculiar and certainly is not the way all the other encyclopedias do it, nor have I seen it here?Dave (talk) 09:37, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

PS. I have to go now Checco - can't work on this both night and day - I have other things to work on - but this article is on my list and I will be back. Meanwhile, why don't you think about it and we will see if we can get more opinions and I would appreciate additional articles establishing the pattern. Eventually let's see if can't get the quality up and get rid of the tags. I will check this later to see what you say. No big rush. Meanwhile, since you disagree the organization can stay as it is. Thanks for your work on Wikipedia. Ciao.Dave (talk) 10:20, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Organization

The organization troubles me somewhat. It seems to jump around a lot between past and present, culture and science and tourism. Also, putting religion under demographics seems a bit strained. Anyone have any ideas on this? Agree, disagree? Would you like to suggest an alternative organization? Checco, your ideas are immediately above.Dave (talk) 09:44, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

I like the current organization and I don't see any need to change something. Definitely I would like to see "Tourism" as a sub-section, but I don't know where. "Religion" is always under "Demographics" because that religion is an aspect of the population and that sub-section usually gives the number of believers of any faith. I do think that the article needs clean-up and rewrite (that was why I put those tags at the top of the page), but I don't think that the current organization is one of those things that needs change. --Checco (talk) 07:27, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Art and architecture section moved here from the article

I am afraid that this section as it stands—presumably a Google translation—fails to meet the minimum standards for inclusion in a Wikipedia article. No doubt it could be improved and restored, but as it stands it will just drive readers mad. I have moved it here. Ian Spackman (talk) 16:37, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Art and architecture =

The Middle Ages allowed the creation of monumental works such as the complex of churches on the island of Torcello, in the Venetian lagoon, with the Cathedral of Santa Maria Assunta based in 639 the bell tower erected in the 'eleventh century and the church of Santa Fosca built around the 1100, important buildings for the presence of mosaics. A Verona The Middle Ages saw the construction of the Basilica of San Zeno Maggiore, which operates in more than elsewhere we see the mixture of styles in that period made Verona an important crossroads for the north Europe.

Examples of Gothic art, in addition to the Venetian church of Santa Maria Gloriosa dei Frari and that of Santi Giovanni e Paolo, we find the [[Scaliger Tombs] ] in the historical center of Verona.

While in the Veneto that the tax remains Byzantine, an element of innovation is brought to Padua by Giotto, bearer of a new pictorial tradition: that of Tuscany. Toward the 1302 was commissioned by the bank Enrico Scrovegni to paint the family chapel, now known just by the name of Scrovegni Chapel, one of the most important artistic monuments of Padova and the Veneto. The influences of the contribution of Giotto were felt immediately, and now you can admire the frescoes of Giusto de 'Menabuoi in Baptistry near the Cathedral of Padua and those of Altichiero in the Basilica of Saint Anthony.

Giorgione's Tempesta

After a phase of development of Gothic art, with the creation of important works including the building of the Ca' d'Oro, the Palazzo Ducale and churches of Santa Maria Gloriosa dei Frari and of Saints John and Paul in Venice, the influence of the Renaissance ushered in a new season. In addition to Donatello, an important Venetian Renaissance artist was Andrea Mantegna (1431 -1506), whose most important work in Veneto is perhaps theSan Zeno Altarpiece in Verona. With the expansion in the mainland of the Venetian Republic and the consolidation of its institutions, there was also an artistic development of exceptional stature: Mantegna, Vittore Carpaccio, Giovanni Bellini, Cima da Conegliano, Pordenone laid the foundations for what would be the season of Venetian painting.

The Renaissance will be in Padua its cradle where Venetian grow and develop. Among the Renaissance artists who worked there Donatello, who worked mostly in Padua and in particular in the altar of the Basilica of Saint Anthony, the Pisanello, whose works are mainly Verona and in particular in the Church of St. Anastasia (his is the fresco of Saint George).

Phase succesivavide starring Giorgione, Titian, Sebastiano del Piombo and Lorenzo Lotto. If the first phase with Carpaccio and Bellini, the influences of international painting were still evident and the references to 'Flemish art numerous, Giorgione and Titian began a new way of painting, original and innovative, which characterized the painters the Venetian school than other traditions. Giorgione's enigmatic artist for his works full of allegories, he created his work without starting from a preparatory drawing but using the color spots to convey the feeling of the image. This innovation was looking for the imitation of natural phenomena by creating atmospheres with the colors and shifting the emphasis from the pursuit of perfection arts. One of his most famous works, The storm (1506 -1508), now in the Academy Gallery in Venice, is an example of this use of color, where the mixture color and texture continue indefinitely without preparatory drawing for the painting work gives a special atmosphere. Titian, born in Belluno Pieve di Cadore, brought forward the use of this technique without pictorial design, creating masterpieces such as' Assumption (1516 - 1518), altar by imposing size visible on the main altar of the Basilica of Santa Maria Gloriosa dei Frari in Venice, a work whose suggestion is due to the use of color in which predominate hotly debated.

James Strong said the Tintoretto (1518 -1594) takes over the Roman Mannerism, but recasts in typical Venetian use of color, highlighting the bright prospects for its operations, giving unusual, sometimes true perspective deformations, with the aim of increasing the sense of tension that permeates the work. Palaces and churches of Venice are full of masterpieces signed by Tintoretto, but certainly worth mentioning, the 66 paintings found in the Scuola Grande di San Rocco el 'Last Supper in the Church of St. George. Paul said Caliari Veronese (1528 -1588), with works that celebrated the life of Venice, is devoted to civil works such as buildings and houses of Venetian nobles. Sue was part of the decoration of Palazzo Ducale and the decoration of many villas Palladian, including Villa Barbaro. Jacopo da Ponte said Bass (1517 -1592) renewed figurative art while being an artist inland lagoon, through the introduction of images taken from real life, enriched by a touch of drama and intense.

Villa Cornaro

Born in Padua in 1508 and died in 1580, Andrea Palladio is l 'architect most famous in the world. Among his works are primarily the many villas, located in the countryside between the provinces of Vicenza, Padua and Treviso and asked Venice ne of St. George, that of the Redeemer, and Zitelle the island of Giudecca. Its buildings are located almost exclusively in Vicenza, where he left his absolute masterpieces.

Palladian architecture incorporates the grounds of classical Roman villas that recall the forms of weather to create masterpieces such as Villa Emo, Villa Barbaro, Villa Capra "La Almerico Round Villa Foscari called the Malcontenta. This aesthetic, forerunner of the neoclassical should be a rigorous search for features that had to have a Villa campaign, in which the central body, the home owner shall permit the control over production activities of the surrounding countryside by structuring the functional parts, such as porch, close to the central body. In the case of Villa Badoer, the open barn, formed by a large circular colonnade, enclosing the front yard in front of the villa, allowing you to create a space that recalls the ancient idea of Roman Forum, and bringing all campaign activities to gravitate in front of the villa itself.

The research style of Palladio has created an architectural movement, the Palladian, which has had strong following in the next three centuries, inspiring architects, some of them his direct students, including Vincenzo Scamozzi, after the death of the teacher who completed several works, including the first Teatro Olimpico in Vicenza.

In the eighteenth century Venetian school can count on many artists: painters Giambattista Tiepolo, his son Giandomenico, Giambattista Piazzetta, Pietro Longhi, Marco and Sebastiano Ricci, Nicholas Kids, Sebastiano Bombelli, Gianantonio Fumiani, Gaspar Diziani, the painter of architecture [[Girolamo Mengozzi Colonna] ] the painter Rosalba; the sculptures Morlaiter, Filippo Parodi, Bernard Torretti and his nephew Giuseppe Torretti, architects Jerome Frigimelica, Giorgio Massari, John Scalfarotto, Thomas Temanza, the most famous view painter Giovanni Antonio Canal as Canaletto, the carver [[Andrea Brustolon] ], playwrights Carlo Goldoni and Gaspare Gozzi, the poets Alessandro Labia and George Whisker, composers Benedetto Marcello and Antonio Vivaldi. Later, at the end of the republic, it follows Antonio Canova.

With Giambattista Tiepolo (1696 -1770) the perspective plays a central role in representation, not to give emphasis to the voltage image, but only to make a dramatic impact the figures. By Tiepolo, in fact, the prospect is forced to beyond the usual limits, painting ceilings figures taken from the bottom in a movement that makes it spectacular.

Another characteristic feature of Veneto is the landscape painting, which sees in Giovanni Antonio Canal (1697 -1768), known as Canaletto and Francesco Guardi ( 1712 -1793) the two leading figures. Canaletto used a rigorous prospective studies are trying to make almost "photographic" reality modeling the colors to emphasize the vitality of the image. Francesco Guardi seeking a more subjective and less clear cut, trying to communicate emotion.

Antonio Canova is the greatest sculptor of his time in Europe. Born in Possagno, developed classical art becoming the reference of neoclassicism. The Temple of Possagno, which he designed himself, is the landmark neo-classical architecture, while in the gispoteca, former home of Canova, you keep the casts of the most famous works that found in various museums in the world, given his reputation that prevailed internationally. Among the most important works, Love and Psyche lyingand thefunerary monument for Maria Cristina d ' Austria .

Coming to miss a major center after the fall of the Venice, every city has declined the second variant own art and specific models. Important was, however, the role of ' Accademia di Belle Arti in Venice, who was able to attract many young artists from the surrounding territory.

Among the many artists Guglielmo Ciardi, which incorporates the experience of macchiaioli uniting the color typical of classic Venetian school, bringing out from his paintings a chromatic essence, Giacomo Favretto: too as Ciardi, enhances the color, sometimes very pronounced, Frederick Zandomeneghi, painter who deviates from the tradition of Venetian coloring, to venture in a style typical French impressionist style, Luigi Nono, which in his works come to feel realistic, even if, in addition to painting genre scenes, portraits of fine is imposed for psychological description.

It's been improved and restored.--Theologiae (talk) 19:34, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

"Due to this recent annexation to the rest of Italy, most Venetians still have a unique identity"

What is this supposed to mean exactly? Veneto was annexed to "the rest of Italy" in 1866, just five years after the estabilishment of the country (1861). That sentence seems to suggest Italy was unified long before the annexation of Veneto. --93.45.236.76 (talk) 12:24, 11 April 2010

most of this section is written by some "fundamentalist indipendentist" and it is simply ridicolous. It happen very often when in Italy (you oughtta see italian version of Wiki). Venetian have a unique identity not very differently from Tuscanian or other italians. This comes from their history and as got nothing to do with the annexion date. By reading this voice it looks like we are talking about Kossove and Serbia. Really silly (and I am from Veneto) Corrado

Marmolada

veneto's highest mountain is marmolada (3342),tofane is not that high! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.14.36.152 (talk) 13:57, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Tour guide

A section on places of interest is unjustifiable. WP:NOTGUIDE means a large junk of this article can be happily binned. Mayor of Yurp (talk) 01:13, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Part removed

I guess I agree, it was far too 'touristy' and not encyclopaedic enough. Though it might work well on Wikitravel, not on a serious encyclopaedia such as Wikipedia. Unless anyone objects, I have removed the section. --&レア (talk) 17:04, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

The Mayor of Treviso

The current mayor of Treviso belongs to the PD. The city has no longer a "leghista" as mayor. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.214.215.29 (talk) 00:20, 15 November 2013 (UTC) — Done! Next time, feel free to edit the article by yourself! --Checco (talk) 09:56, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

POV

Strong overexposure for indipendentistic movements and thesis about the 1866 referendum. Also an excessive importance is given to the 2014 online referendum which has been taken not so serious in Italy because of the alleged numbers (there were about 30% votes more than average Internet users in Veneto) and the absence of control about voters (some...fictional characters voted too!). --Vituzzu (talk) 14:18, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

The article, as each and every article, can be expanded and improved: you are more than welcome to give your contribution. I don't think that excessive importance is given to the subjects you mentioned. Regarding the 2014 referendum, there is just a short reference to it and it is clearly explained that the referendum was not official and that the results are those announced by the referendum's promoters (please also note that these, some news sources and some pollsters do not agree with your claims—none of us/them has a monopoly of truth). Please edit the article as you wish and, in case, we will keep discussing. --Checco (talk) 12:05, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

You're right "some". History is a simple part of this page, current claims of independence are a very small part of the three millennia Veneto's history and pro-referendum sources are a smaller part of related sources. Applying WP:BALANCE would dramatically reduce space current given to those claims. --Vituzzu (talk) 13:03, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

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Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Veneto/Archives/2020/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

==WP:Italy== This article seems very complete, but could be better, especially as one moves further down the page. Sectori 20:03, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Last edited at 20:03, 14 October 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 09:52, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

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External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 4 external links on Veneto. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070805181218/http://www.circa.europa.eu/irc/dsis/regportraits/info/data/en/itd3_geo.htm to http://circa.europa.eu/irc/dsis/regportraits/info/data/en/itd3_geo.htm
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130526183748/http://circa.europa.eu/irc/dsis/regportraits/info/data/en/itd3_eco.htm to http://circa.europa.eu/irc/dsis/regportraits/info/data/en/itd3_eco.htm
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080309125317/http://www.istat.it/dati/dataset/20071004_00 to http://www.istat.it/dati/dataset/20071004_00
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090413160101/http://mappe.regioneveneto.net/ to http://mappe.regioneveneto.net/

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Venetan? Venetian!

In all en.Wikipedia pages, the adjective veneto, referring to Veneto as a whole, is translated into "Venetian", which is much more common than "Venetan". The reason is simple: "Venetian" referring to Veneto and its inhabitants is more common than "Venetan". Therefore, any reference to "Venetan language" should be restored to "Venetian language", any reference to "Venetan people" to "Venetian people" and so on. That is what I am going to do. --Checco (talk) 19:46, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

With regard to language, it's a simple empirical fact that Trevigiani, Padovani, Vicentini, Chioggiotti (etc. etc.) do not speak Venetian, but their local variety of Venetan, just as Venetians do. The claim that Venetian = Venetan is as uninformed and false as declaring that Florentine = Tuscan, thus Aretini, Senesi, Grossetani [...] speak Florentine. You offer no reason for insisting on mislabeling other than the spurious circularity that the misnomer is more common than the accurate terminology, thus leading to the confusing conflated nonsense of "most inhabitants also speak another Romance language, a variety of Venetian, the best known of which is Venetian." Outside the language question this forces mistranslation of il popolo veneto as "the Venetian people" rather than its clear meaning in the legal text, "the Venetan people." For the moment at least, I'm not going to engage further in the pointless exercise of warring in a dumb-it-down zone. Feel free to continue the misinformation campaign if you wish. 47.32.20.133 (talk) 14:59, 23 September 2018 (UTC)

"Venetan" is an obscure and only seldomly used adjective. Most of the times, English speakers refer to the people of Veneto as "Venetians". Also, please do not confuse the Venetian language and its dialects, including Trevisan, Paduan, etc. An extended explanation of the varieties of the Venetian language is available in the related article: like it or not, that is the standard we are currently applying in en.Wikipedia. --Checco (talk) 13:16, 25 September 2018 (UTC)

1) Far from obscure and infrequent, Venetan is the normal preferred term in the specialist literature.

https://benjamins.com/catalog/silv.1.02ben

http://www.lrec-conf.org/proceedings/lrec2010/pdf/556_Paper.pdf

Salvatore Aglioti, Alberto Beltramello, Flavia Girardi and Franco Fabbro. 1996. "Neurolinguistic and follow-up study of an unusual pattern of recovery from bilingual subcortical aphasia". Brain 119.1551-1564. p. 1552:

"Venetan is a Romance language spoken in north-eastern Italy. It includes the dialects spoken in Venice (Venetian), Verona (Veronese), Treviso (Trevisan) and Padua (Paduan)..."

Patrizia Cordin. 1997. "Trentino". In The Dialects of Italy, ed. Martin Maiden and Mair Parry, pp. 260-262. London/New York: Routledge. p. 260:

"Trentino is an area where different linguistic (and cultural) currents intersect and overlap. Four particularly relevant ones are: [...] Venetan, entering from Vallagarina in the south..."

Giampaolo Salvi, "Ladin", in Maiden and Parry, eds., 1997, 286-294. p. 286:

"...despite their traditional 'Ladin' classification, Noneso and Solandro are considered under Trentino, and Ampezzano [...] under Venetan."

Paola Benincà, Mair Parry and Diego Pescarini. 2016. "The dialects of Northern Italy." In The Oxford Guide to the Romance Languages, ed. Adam Ledgeway and Martin Maiden, pp. 185-205. Oxford: OUP.

"The linguistic sub-areas that can be identified in northern Italy since the very first records are Piedmontese, Occitan, Lombard, Venetan, Friulian, Ligurian, and Emilian-Romagnol (Map 13.1)." (p. 185)

"[-t]- > [-d]- > [-ð]- > Ø (although in the absence of apocope of the following vowel, restoration as [d] is common, especially in Lombard and Venetan)..." (p. 189)

"Front rounded vowels [y] < Ū and [ø] < Ŏ are further distinctive northern features, although absent from Romagnol and Venetan varieties." (p. 190)

"Table 13.2 Paradigm of ‘to go’ in Ladin, Venetan, and Lombard dialects" (p. 194)

"In many Venetan dialects, for instance, the genitive/partitive clitic is formed by a combination of the locative clitic ghe /ge/ and the partitive element ne." (p. 196)

(etc. etc. etc.)

2) Existence of errors in one or more Wikipedia articles does not justify perpetuation of the same errors in other articles. 47.32.20.133 (talk) 18:07, 25 September 2018 (UTC)

I am aware of all that, but, broadly speaking, "Venetan" is an obscure and only seldomly used adjective, while "Venetian" is more frequently used as the translation of both veneto and veneziano. Most of the times, English speakers refer to people/things related to Veneto as "Venetian", not "Venetan". As of today, by tracking Google hits, one finds that there are 22,220 for "Venetian language" compared to 1,850 for "Venetan language", 48,700 for "Venetian cuisine" compared to none for "Venetan cuisine", 22,000 for "Venetian people" compared to 148 for "Venetan people", 4,160 for "Venetian nationalism" compared to none for "Venetan nationalism", etc. The general picture is that there are 64,200,000 for "Venetian" compared to 218,000 for "Venetan" (of course, "Venice" is more popular than "Veneto" on the web, but the proportion is quite different: 179,000,000 for "Venice" compared to 98,200,000 for "Veneto"!). Note: This is a general discussion on the usage of "Venetian" or "Venetan" referring to Veneto. The isssue should be thus dealt here, not at Talk:Venetian language or elsewhere. --Checco (talk) 07:18, 26 September 2018 (UTC)

The purpose of an encyclopedia is to inform -- to be "a valued source of reliable information compiled by experts" -- the precise opposite of perpetuating and implicitly reinforing the misconceptions of non-experts. A frequency account of popular conflation of Venetan and Venetian is of sociolinguistic interest; it does not serve to legitimize inaccuracy in an encyclopedia article. Mislabeling of Venetan as Venetian can and should be dealt with anywhere it is relevant. 47.32.20.133 (talk) 15:22, 26 September 2018 (UTC)

There is no such problem. "Venetian" is the better, other than most common, translation of veneto. Please note that it is also the translation offered by WordReference. Of course, not all dictionaries provide a translation for veneto, but I have found none translating it into "Venetan". I think it is important to stick with the most common—and correct—translation of "Venetian". --Checco (talk) 07:17, 27 September 2018 (UTC)

"Venetan is a Romance language spoken in north-eastern Italy. It includes the dialects spoken in Venice (Venetian), Verona (Veronese), Treviso (Trevisan) and Padua (Paduan)..." "The linguistic sub-areas that can be identified in northern Italy since the very first records are Piedmontese, Occitan, Lombard, Venetan, Friulian, Ligurian, and Emilian-Romagnol (Map 13.1)." The issue is factual. What you or I may "think" personally or opine in peremptory declaration ("Venetian is the better...") is entirely irrelevant. 47.32.20.133 (talk) 15:11, 27 September 2018 (UTC)

It is factual that only a minority of sources prefer "Venetan" over "Venetian". --Checco (talk) 06:14, 28 September 2018 (UTC)

I would like to add that this is an issue internal to English: Venetian is the demonym (and subsequently the name of the language) for both Venice and Venetia, which is an alternative for Veneto (see here for instance). Also, the usage of the same word may be clarified by just adding dialect (when referring to that of Venice) or language (when referring to the linguistic group as a whole), if it’s the case. イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 09:16, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

@Barefoot through the chollas: Funny that I reverted your edit once and then you start an edit war with the comment "Talk works much better than warring"... I find it ironic. Anyway, apparently this matter was being discussed last year already, and I agree with User:Checco. The common English translation for veneto is Venetian, period. Wikipedia can't change that and start translating veneto as Venetan. Furthermore your source uses Venetan for the language family that includes veneziano translated as Venetian (therefore probably the term was used indeed to remark the difference), but you did not give a RS using Venetan for the population of Veneto. --Ritchie92 (talk) 21:01, 11 August 2019 (UTC)

Oh my. No irony. Reverting of anything other than obvious vandalism should be done judiciously, for good reason, and always with explanation supplied, in the general spirit of collaborative work. Unfortunately, your reason was spurious, i.e. the illusory notion that "'Venetan' is not a word", a claim immediately falsifiable with a simple Google search. In a few seconds it's clear not only that it's "a word", but the standard term used by experts when writing in English to describe matters at the regional level -- people, local culture, language, etc. A proud native of Rovigo is veneto/Venetan, definitely not veneziano/Venetian, as absurd as labeling a Bergamasco Milanese. Numerous examples above, no need to cite more, but I did just stumble across a nice study listing linguistic informants by their variety of "Venetan" as "Paduan, Trevigiano, Venetian and Vicentino". The obvious point is that Venetan is the term used by those who study such things seriously, and produce the sort of research and thus texts that encyclopedias depend on for their material. It's not only normal amongst the knowledgeable, but also very useful by precluding the conflation and confusion caused by equating English Venetian with both veneto and veneziano. In the case of the Statuto, telling anglophones that L’autogoverno del popolo veneto refers to the self-government of "the Venetian people" is simply not telling them the truth. Wikipedia can ignore that. Wikipedia can reject accuracy and insight. But Wikipedia can't change that fact. Barefoot through the chollas (talk) 03:53, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

Yours is a personalized idea of how Wikipedia works. Please read WP:BRD, and always assume good faith. If you disagree with the motivation I added to my revert, then you start the discussion in the talk page. My single revert does not qualify as edit warring. Also, you're wrong. I fully understand your point and I did my research too. Venetan is not the standard translation of "veneto", you can check on each and any of the most relevant English dictionaries: you will find little or no trace of the word "Venetan". This is a technical and rare word which is never used in real life and when translating from "veneto", WP should use the common "Venetian". A single word can have two meanings, in this case Venetian can stand for veneto and veneziano, like the word "right" can stand for "correct" and "right-hand side". Also I don't know why you are focusing on that particular sentence in the article, while there are 93 occurrences of the word "Venetian" in it, including the entry about the "Demonym" in the infobox. A decision of this relevance cannot be done by pushing one partial edit, it should be discussed and agreed by consensus. Furthermore, there are also other pages titles which use Venetian instead of Venetan, see Venetian nationalism for example. --Ritchie92 (talk) 08:18, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

It won't be a surprise that I fully agree with User:Ritchie92 and I thank him/her for his/her intervention. --Checco (talk) 13:30, 12 August 2019 (UTC)