Talk:V sign/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Source for Bush Sr. accidentally giving the bowfinger?

Currently the article says,

Sometimes foreigners visiting the countries mentioned above use the "two-fingered salute" without knowing it is offensive to the natives, for example when ordering two beers in a noisy pub, or in the case of the United States president George H. W. Bush, when he attempted to give the "peace sign", and instead gave the insulting V sign to onlookers while touring Australia in 1992.

There's a reference for that, but the reference points to a 2006 gossip column in the Washington Post ("Reliable Source, April 5, 2006) with the note "see section 26 for Bush/V-sign". The "section 26" turns out to be a reader comment in the discussion area:

The chin gesture: Regarding last week's discussion about the chin gesture, don't we all remember Bush Sr. in Australia in 1992?

"V" Sign (Wikipedia)

"After telling the press he was an expert in hand gestures, George Bush gave the "V-for-Victory" sign as he drove in his armored limousine past demonstrators in Canberra, Australia's capital in January 1992. In Australia, holding up two fingers to form a "V" has the same vulgar meaning as the middle-finger gesture in the United States. The Aussie demonstrators were very mad, and they signaled in the same manner back at the U.S. President. Bush later apologized."

Roxanne Roberts: We all don't, so thanks for sharing.

So the only source is a reader comment in a forum, which links back to... this same article! I'm going to remove that reference, and replace it with a factcheck tag. If nobody provides the source in the next few days (and I can't track it down myself), I'll nuke it. I think we're on the debatable and misty frontiers of WP:BLP, and we shouldn't be telling stories like this without some references... -- Narsil (talk) 15:36, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Couldn't find any sources for the story, and nobody chimed in here... so I'm removing the reference from the page. -- Narsil (talk) 21:57, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

I had a look too using Google search using different search patters, there a number of similar quality sources that claim the same thing with slightly more or less detail. The most reliable source I came across was this one George Bush: The Unauthorized Biography --- by Webster G. Tarpley & Anton Chaitkin Chapter -XXV- THYROID STORM:

::Bush displayed decided mental instability during this trip. In Canberra, Australia, he flashed a well-known obscene gesture to a group of farmers who were protesting his "free trade" farm policies. Bush told a luncheon cruise in Sydney harbor, "I'm a man that knows every hand gesture you've ever seen-- and I haven't learned a new one since I've been here." As the Washington Post reported, "Down here, holding up the first two fingers to form a "V" with the back of the hand toward the subject is the same as holding up the middle finger in the United States. And that's just what Bush did from his limousine to a group of protesters as his motorcade passed through Canberra yesterday, apparently not knowing its significance. Or maybe he did." [fn 74] ...

74. Washington Post, January 3, 1992.

The web page belongs to Webster Griffin Tarpley. Given that the book "George Bush: The Unauthorized Biography" was published by at least two publishers Paperback edition (1991) from Executive Intelligence Review and paperback edition (2004) from Progressive Press, the quote appears on page 651 of the 2004 edition and with the footnote this a wikipedia reliable source. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 09:55, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Jun Inoue

I have moved the following to here:

Another possible origin of the overwhelming popularity of the sign used in photographs was revealed in a series of Japanese variety programs from September-November 2007, the first of which was the popular Down Town DX. The man cited as responsible for popularizing the V sign is a Jun Inoue (Junji Inoue at the time), a popular actor known for roles in television dramas, films and commercials. In 1972 he appeared in a series of commercials for the Japanese camera maker Konica in which he was photographed in a number of candid poses all with one thing in common—he was flashing the V sign. According to Inoue, the idea for the sign was an ad-lib based on his perception of its popularity overseas.(Fact

I could not find a reliable source for it on the Web, but I did notice that this article has been used as source for this information on the web, so we need to have a WP:SOURCE for the paragraph. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 11:36, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Beethoven's Fifth

It's an anachronism to say that Beethoven's Fifth's morse code theme derives from the fact that 5 is the Roman Numeral V, as it was written 35 years before Morse Code was developed. I removed the parenthetical from

This is the rhythm of the opening bars of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony (since V is the Roman numeral for 5), and it was used as the call-sign by the BBC in its foreign language programmes to occupied Europe for the rest of the war.

84.71.208.48 (talk) 15:19, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

I think you are confused the wording you removed was "(since V is the Roman numeral for 5)", there is no suggestion in that Beethoven's Fifth was derived from or based on morse code! It is that the opening bars of the 5th happen to be the same as the letter V in morse code, which is why it was used. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 16:30, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

No. As written, the statement means "The opening bar of Beethoven 5 is da-da-da-dah because this rhythm is the Morse code for V and V is the Roman numeral for five." This cannot be true because Morse was invented after Beethoven died. I've rephrased the article. Dricherby (talk) 10:15, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

V Sign as an Insult in Australia

As a citizen of Australia I have always known the v sign when used as an insult as "the forks". The Wikipedia disambiguation page "The Forks" also makes reference to this fact. Maybe it should be included in the article. 118.208.24.92 (talk) 09:40, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Origins (2)

What a horrible section this is - the second paragraph in particular, which looks to have been written by two people who disagree fundamentally on the subject, leading to contradictions, weasel words and repetition. Sadly I am not an expert on the subject but I would urge anybody who cares enough to edit this mercilessly.--81.23.54.142 (talk) 08:40, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Woman-Girl-Vagina Power, Feminism & Cunnilingus

The v-sign in the last five years or so has become very common on the Internet, particularly in informal social photos and videos of young females. One reason American and particularly Japanese young women in photos give for making the v-sign is that it's just something interesting to do while posing. Typically those resemble the victory or peace sign and the pose implies silliness or some such.

Another reason seems to be a declaration or exclamation of "woman power," similar (but perhaps less militant,) to the Black Power clenched fist. These typically are given with the palm inwards, and the closer the hand is to the face, the more emphatic or specific the meaning; such as the similar (or interchangeable) "Vagina Power" concept. The letter "V" is also often associated with "vagina" in these issues.

Related; "the global movement to stop violence against women and girls" is strongly associated with the letter V. I'm not familiar enough with feminism to know where to put that issue, but my guess is that it's somehow inseparable. For example, "V-Day."

Also, if a person "makes a "V" with her index and middle finger and flicks her tongue in immitation of cunnilingus," (sic) and the “V sign with your tongue wagging between” and the "V with tongue" gesture signifies cunnilingus, such as "i give cunnilingus" or "i want cunnilingus" (sic) and probably also is just an exclamation: "Cunnilingus!" It also appears that that even without the tongue out, but with the mouth near the crotch of the fingers, to mean the same thing or extremist "Vagina Power". In these cases, the V of the fingers seem to symbolize spread legs in a sexual context as well as; V for Vagina. Most often, Lesbian acts are implied.

All of these represent a declaration or exclamation of some kinds of feminism or proud female-ness. "I am Woman!" (I'm not familiar with the proper terminology, nor the issues.)

Below I'll include my notes from the Web in support of all this. In some cases they include mere social blogs, but utterly unrelated, yet saying the SAME things. Also links to some supporting photos.
I'll let others decide if this accumulation of evidence is valid support, and if so, to add these concepts to the main article. I think it offers a partial explanation for the many photos of young women in the last five years or so, giving the v-sign on the Internet, particularly in the informal social and photo sites.
I think to best understand a person or a society; know it's unarticulated assumptions and presumptions. But how can those be fully documented?

Please forgive me, these are VERY rough notes:

Photo: Young women giving V gesture in Tokyo, Japan (2006) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Girls_giving_peace_sign,_Tokyo.jpg from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_sign

Sexy V-girls! | Bohemia Bunny
Welcome to Sexy V-girls! About a dozen girls Flashing the V-sign. This is the first and most original V-girls site on the Net! Accept no substitutes!
http://lynn.entori.net/sexy-v-girls/

V sign: Definition from Answers.com
In the 1960s, however, it was annexed by American, and later British, youth as the ‘Peace sign’, and a further change was signalled when in 1997 the pop group The Spice Girls used it to signify ‘Girl power’. ... Young women giving V gesture in Tokyo, Japan (2006)
www.answers.com/topic/v-sign - Cached

mouth at vee.
http://img.dannychoo.com/cgm/ecommerce/dannychoo/stockimg/peace_sign11.jpg
and
http://img.dannychoo.com/cgm/ecommerce/dannychoo/stockimg/peace_sign16.jpg
http://www.dannychoo.com/post/en/1104/Japanese+V+Sign.html

also mouth at vee sign:
lesbian tongue Maternity [tee shirts for sale] photo:
[sorry, link Wiki blacklisted:
cafepress] product_zoom/202022259v2_225x225_Front_padToSquare-true.png
Cunnilingus T's Maternity T's $25
[link Wiki blacklisted:
cafepress] /+lesbian-tongue+womens-maternity
CafePress > Maternity > lesbian tongue Maternity [quoting:] lesbian tongue Maternity
Related Searches: lesbian tongue envy, funny lesbian designs, lesbian sex, dyke pride, lesbian humor, lesbian pride, pride 2007, 2006, glbt, adult humor [end quotes]

Drag queens at the 801 Cabaret - Google Books Result
Leila J. Rupp, Verta A. Taylor - 2003
- Social Science - 256 pages
Have you ever had a lesbian experience? They say that ninety percent of the ... She makes a "V" with her index and middle finger and flicks her tongue in immitation of cunnilingus and announces "I love to lick pussy."...
http://books.google.com/books?id=QgBt5dKqg7IC&pg=PA138&lpg=PA138&dq=sign+%22v%22+OR+Vee+tongue+OR+licking+lesbian+-%22v-neck%22&source=bl&ots=gwLkXWJwC7&sig=SOZgaSut9OwB2YHh807dKb0gPu0&hl=en&ei=cCUHTIvYAoLcNdvx0MwP&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CCoQ6AEwCTg8#v=onepage&q&f=false

The top 10 hand gestures you'd better get right
September 25, 2007
The V sign is also considered rude in Italy, especially if you place your nose between the two fingers, making the gesture resemble a crude vagina. http://www.bspcn.com/2007/09/25/the-top-10-hand-gestures-you%E2%80%99d-better-get-right/

Goober Says: February 26th, 2008 at 12:57 pm
I’d rather get herpes than hear another UHaul reference/joke. Speaking of hand gestures, dear str8 friends – it is annoying when you do the “V sign with your tongue wagging between” gesture. You don’t have to throw the V-Wag up to us. We farkin’ invented it. If there’s a hot girl at the bar that you want us to ogle, just glance over and do the frat-boy head-nod. werd.
http://gracethespot.com/?p=66

Opinions on the V with tongue gesture? - Yahoo! Answers
As a lesbian, I don't exactly know why, but I get particularly offended by straight girls using the "V with tongue" gesture to goof off in pictures and what not. I sort of feel like: 'really you enjoy that? why dont you own up to it and try it for real?'.
I'm not really sure to what extent this is an obscene or offensive gesture but I just get really frustrated when it is used, especially by girls who have no intention of performing the act.
7 months ago
Best Answer - Chosen by Voters
I'm bi and I have straight female friends that always use that gesture to me just to be funny. I don't really find it offensive as I do humorous. I also really don't think the "V" gesture is targeted to lesbian and bisexuals. A guy is just as likely to perform oral sex also.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091101163542AA0Dwsp

"jonhohx in adelaide (Registered on 2007/05/14) filmaker
little does everyone know that the v-sign is actually to denote the act of..."i give cunnilingus" or " i want cunnilingus"...haha
Sun 2007/09/16
"Only when you place the fingers below your lips. First time I saw it used THAT way, I was 16 years old, and panting after this really cute girl at my very first job. My boss, who is of Chinese decent, BTW, flashed that version at me. I was too stupid to get a clue. I didn't see it again that way until my 30s. I had it all put together by then. Too late for me to use on that girl. LOL!"
http://www.dannychoo.com/post/en/1104/Japanese+V+Sign.html

http://womensissues.about.com/b/2008/02/14/valentines-day-2008-marks-10th-anniversary-of-v-day.htm Valentine's Day 2008 Marks 10th Anniversary of V-Day -Thursday February 14, 2008
One woman. Many monologues. All about a single, rarely-discussed portion of female anatomy.
When playwright Eve Ensler wrote The Vagina Monologues, she could not have anticipated the extraordinary impact this play would have on women around the globe. Or that it would spawn an international movement associated with Valentine's Day called V-Day.

http://womensissues.about.com/od/violenceagainstwomen/a/V-DayControvers.htm.
So it's not surprising that V-Day, the global movement to stop violence against women and girls, has faced protests, outright bans, picketing, and counter-movements to stop the event from being held on college campuses. V-Day, the brainchild of playwright Eve Ensler, is a public awareness and fundraising campaign that young women at colleges and universities have rallied around. Schools that participate in the V-Day College Campaign typically mount a performance of ...

Jane Fonda's Vulva V photo:
http://ratconference.com/ratsass/dickandjanefonda.jpg
http://ratconference.com/blog/?p=45
Less appropriator and more inheritor, V-Day, with its Vagina muscling its way into this ambiguous V-sign territory of war/peace, feels completely apt, suggesting that the electorate of the most powerful military nation in the ...

v sign w fangs cartoon:
http://musicmedia.ign.com/music/image/article/831/831205/vvaginainline_1193704558.jpg

Doug Bashford--69.228.15.239 (talk) 08:54, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Picture

In my opinion, the picture which appears in the lead should focus exclusively on the gesture, as opposed to the current one, which is seen from far away, with a gloved hand, in a busy picture. Thoughts? Sithman VIII !! 02:04, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

I agree. Maybe use one of the pictures on wikimedia commons or somebody could take a fresh picture? --Sus scrofa (talk) 03:15, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

I agree partly, but the context of the picture is also important, and I think that the lede picture shows that well - they're all so wrapped up in protective clothing that it's hard to tell what their emotions are - and so the hand sign is the defining action of the picture.

Talking of pictures though - there don't seem to be any examples of the insult, which I think is missing. Perhaps when I have some time I'll stand by the road and insult some passers-by, and see if I get any good examples to take pictures...

a_man_alone (talk) 08:46, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Aleister Crowley

Including that this colorful character "demonstrated that he was the first to publish a "V Sign," and "claimed to have invented its use as a magical foil against the swastika" may be too trivial, unreliable, and/or unencyclopedic. For the latter claim, the source (page 511 of Kaczynski's friendly biography on Crowley, which is fortnately readable on google books) quotes a diary entry of 14 February 1941 in which Crowley writes that he has found "this even more potent formula to bring victory ... [and] a way to put it across". This was exactly one month after De Laveleye's very public and instantly effective radio broadcast. If you're writing a new idea in your diary, why wait over a month? For the first "demonstration", Kaczynski quotes a rather cryptic passage in a September 1941 letter to a friend. If I got it straight, Crowley claims to have "squatter's rights" since he included an image in his book "Magick" (published in 1913, I think) that he says was drawn in the 1880's or earlier by the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn (what "G∴D∴" stands for). In this figure the letters L, V and X are associated with the Swastika, the Trident, and the Pentagram, respectively. That's it. I'm sure there is some coincidental magickal meaning here, but it's not like the Germans were going around brandishing the letter L everywhere; why wouldn't Crowley have advocated the trident as an antidote to the Swastika? At any rate, many people have fantasized meanings for all letters in the alphabet, including the V. The inclusion of this figure in his book certainly is the farthest thing from "demonstrating that he was the first to publish the V sign". Afasmit (talk) 00:13, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Aleister Crowley is listed as one of the 100 Greatest Britons by the BBC. One can of course debate the veracity or reliability of anyone's claims (and there are definitely many counterpoints one could make, to the points you make above). However, as far as I understand it, Wikipedia does not judge the relative truth or falsehood of statements made by historical figures, but rather reports them as they appear in reliable sources. Given Crowley's important place in British history as acknowledged by the BBC, the U.S. Army's Military Intelligence Division acknowledgement that "Aleister Crowley was an employee of the British Government ... in this country on official business of which the British Consul, New York City has full cognizance," and the reliability of the book where these claims are reported, there is no good reason not to include the interesting and relevant statements Crowley made about the V-Sign, whether or not one agrees with them. Reverting deletion. --Thiebes (talk) 01:29, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

There are two problems: the source does not say that he demonstrated to be the first to publish a V sign but it does show that Crowley was at least a month too late coming up with his idea for his claim to be true. 1) Kaczynski only wrote that Crowley (in a letter of September 1941) claimed to have squatter's right on the sign because he happened to include in his 1913 book a figure (created by other people in the 19th century) in which the letter V and swastika both appear (along other letters and signs). Kaczynski does not write that Crowley demonstrated anything. 2) On 14 January 1941 De Laveley advertised using the V sign over the radio, including the use of a hand gesture, a month after which (on 12 February 1941, at which point chalked-up Vs had been showing up all over the Low Countries), Crowley pondered in his diary "How can I put it [a magical antidote to the swastika] over pictorially or graphically?". Kaczynski then writes that "soon afterward [on February 14] he found this even more potent formula [then his suggestion of doing a "Thumbs Up!"] ... Crowley decided on the letter V". So we can not use this source to write that "Crowley demonstrated that he was the first to publish a V sign" (that would be "synthesis"), but we could keep "British Occultist Aleister Crowley claimed to have invented the usage of the V sign as a magical foil to the Nazis' use of the swastika. He maintained [Kaczynski's choice of words] that he passed this to friends at the BBC, and to the British Naval Intelligence Division through his connections in MI5, eventually gaining the approval of Winston Churchill. However, his diary notations proclaiming his invention postdate De Laveley's radio announcements by a month. (reference)" Afasmit (talk) 13:40, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

I appreciate your due diligence and professionalism, Afasmit. Let's avoid going into a lengthy discussion of the symbols and their meanings. It's not relevant and we don't need to debate the validity of Crowley's claim to include it here. As for the "two problems" you point out: In fact, the source does say in the final paragraph of the page cited that, "Since Crowley demonstrates his primacy in publishing the V-sign, the second part of his claim--his intelligence connections--are of interest." I had even softened this by writing that he demonstrated first publication of "a" V-sign rather than "the" V-sign. As to the question of whether Crowley was a month too late in thinking of it: we only know that he wrote it in his diary a month after it was put on the radio; he doesn't indicate when the idea came to him in the diary entry so we can't assume that he was a month late in thinking of it. I concur that it is fair to use the word "maintained" instead of "indicated." As for the final sentence you have above, since the diary entry date does not prove anything either way, I think its inclusion here amounts to editorializing--I don't see Kaczynski undermining Crowley's claim in this way in the source. --Thiebes (talk) 17:22, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Sorry for the delay. Indeed, I overlooked Kaczynski's conclusion following the paragraph on squatter's rights. Obviously, when a source claims something it doesn't have to be true. We can quote it, but we can't write it down as a fact. Again, countless people must have published on hand gestures representing letters, the V and L obvious ones given the position of our fingers. We could say "Crowley's publication of both a V sign and a swastika on one page in his 1913 book "Magick" is interpreted by some that his claim is of interest.", or "... that he was the first to publish a V sign", or "Crowley pointed out that in his 1913 publication Magick a V sign and a swastika appear on the same plate (reference)." Unless the diary dates are wrong (notes 44 and 45 on page 660), the diary entries exclude the possibility that he had worked it out more than a month before he wrote about it and had convinced and funneled it through his contacts eventually resulting in the radio announcement on January 14, as two days earlier (February 12) he wrote that he was racking his brain ("How can I ... I want...") to come up with an antidote, the Thumbs Up sign being the best so far. In order not to mislead the reader, I think mentioning the timing is obligatory in this case. Here's hoping you can agree with my adjusted text. Afasmit (talk) 10:28, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

oscilation

Perhaps some mention of oscillation could be made, when talking about the rude sign type two fingers, it is very rarely static and the fact the it is usually displayed with an up down movement may support it's given meaning in the article, IE it's supposed to equate to the f word, which is itself an act which isn't static, when done properly so I am told, so perhaps the up down movement is meant to represent this. In fact there is quite a lot of subtlety and expression that can be imparted through minor variations in the execution of the rude two fingers, there is the semi static two fingers accompanied by a cheeky sardonic grin the fingers held at close quarters to the recipients face, there is the full on football hooligans v, where by the actual v is held a few degrees off vertical, and the angle the v describes is pulled tighter so as the fingers are just a wee bit of being parallel to each other, usually accompanied by a screwed up angry type face, were the giver may be actually mouthing the f word, this type is usually seen in English market towns on Saturday afternoons, when the local lads are helping the visitors to a bit of a light workout after the match, by chasing them through the town, some thoughtful locals may even encourage the tourist to get the most from their exercise by brandishing Stanley blades, these are usually the carpet fitters amongst the crowd, this good deed is usually reciprocated the next week-end, when they are hosting the away support, but obviously I digress.

Yakacm (talk) 11:39, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

The Norwegian stamp picture

It might be useful to point out that in occupied Norway the V sign didn't necessarily refer to the "v for victory" as it was extensevily used as a sign for supprt for the norwegian king Haakon the 5th, who had the roman numeram V for 5 in his title. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.113.66.145 (talk) 14:49, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

V sign representing Ustashe in Croatia

This is absolutely false. V sign was used by Croatian soldiers in defiance towards the aggressor similar to how Churchill used it in defiance against the Nazis. This is nothing but pathetic propaganda to discredit Croatian war veterans who fought and died to liberate their country by trying to make them appear as fascists. There is absolutely no source for this claim except a couple of Serbian extremist websites. Who in his right mind would believe a lie like this? Why would the Ustashe, who were a fascist movement in WWII, used a salute that was popularized by the British prime minister, with whom they were at war with? I removed that quote from the article because Wikipedia shouldn't be used by people to further their political agenda. I also edited out the Bosniak part from the other mention of the V sign in the Yugoslav wars, since that has nothing to do with the source given. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.172.16.144 (talk) 13:53, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Inverted V-sign

I've heard something about the inverted V-sign (fingers pointed down towards the ground), which is supposed to be some sort of superstitious or magical protection sign. The two fingers are supposed to represent something like the devil's horns, and the pointing them towards the ground should ward off evil forces. It is supposed to be used against the evil eye, hexes etc. So described, it is used similarly to the other "horns" sign, that formed by extending pointing and pinky fingers. I haven't been able to find a reliable source for this, has anyone else heard of something similar? Arny (talk) 22:25, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Rabelais

I was curious about the reference to Rabelais, as to the best of my knowledge the V-sign (in the English sense) is unknown in France. I have not read through Rabelais for this purpose, but I found the following online account:

" The earliest description of an insulting V-sign comes from the French writer, François Rabelais. In his comic epic, Gargantua And Pantagruel (1532), he described a duel of gestures between two characters, Panurge and Thaumast:

"Then (Panurge) stretched out the forefinger and middle finger or medical of his right hand, holding them asunder as much as he could, and thrusting them towards Thaumast... Thaumast began then to wax somewhat pale, and to tremble..." "

If this is read without preconceptions, it is far from clear that it refers to a V-sign at all. The phrase 'thrusting them towards Thaumast' suggests to me that the fingers are held horizontally, and thrust towards Thaumast's face in a threatening way.perhaps to poke out his eyes. I have amended the Wiki article to make it less positive about the nature of the gesture.109.157.225.74 (talk) 19:38, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

I agree. Wikipedia shouldn't just parrot stuff like that. Sure if somebody notable said something stupid, we can always say such-and-such said so-and-so. But if somebody unnotable said something stupid, there is really no reason to even mention it. This thing has just been based on idle speculation made in a web page about a Shakespeare performance. It has no notability whatsoever. By putting it on Wikipedia, we are just helping to perpetuate a misconception. --dab (𒁳) 20:43, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

Origins

I saw a documentary on British TV about the Second World War, including an interview with a British paratrooper who claimed to have given "the Agincourt sign" to a German camera crew after he'd been captured (there was actual footage of him doing it, too). That suggests that the Agincourt origin myth was around before the 1970s, as the article suggests.--Pooneil (talk) 03:03, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

That documentary is "D-Day to Berlin", and that scene is in part 2/3. 31.16.112.35 (talk) 20:44, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

It would depend on when the interview was made. For example people describe many things as ethnic cleansing today, a description that did not exist in English before the Bosnian War. --PBS (talk) 11:13, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

I remember with vivid clarity, at some time between September 1962 and May 1963 in Lincolnshire, hearing about the Agincourt connection from my biology teacher. As young as I was at the time, I have the distinct feeling that it was old news to me. It's therefore fair to say that the story had been around for some years already, so I'll go along with the Opie reference in the article - at least. --JH49S (talk) 16:52, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

I have no doubt that the Agincourt story may well have originated during WWII. The question is, do we have any positive evidence? I.e. either a primary publication from that period, or else a more recent publication that explicitly discusses the gesture which says as much? Because if we do not, we need to stay on the safe side and just cite a terminus ante quem. --dab (𒁳) 20:45, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

How to make noteworthy insults

The addition by 87.108.2.41 which was immediatley removed by Mezigue as "really not noteworthy", was a bit wordy, but the incident was the first time I and probably many other people had heard of a V sign as an insult. The instant and (supposedly) permanent sacking of two star players from the Scottish national football team seemed extreme and the incident is a good illustration of how insulting the sign apparently is. Certainly it is more noteworthy and illustrative than some character flashing it in some opening credits of Buffy or a New Zealand broadcaster inconsequentially being caught on tape bantering with a colleague. Afasmit (talk) 15:25, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Gangster peace sign?

The intro paragraph states, without citation: "The palm-inwards version has become popular among American youth originating as a gangster version of the "peace" sign." The article never addresses this statement. Frankly, this is an unlikely origin for the "gangster" sign. Should this sentence just be deleted? I highly doubt someone will find a reliable source to back this statement. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.109.7.33 (talk) 19:05, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

To my knowledge, the gangster-version-ya-sign is done with the middle and the small finger, see [1] Zuckerberg (talk) 18:23, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

As I understand it that's a gesture using index, middle (often shortened by pressing into the palm) and little finger, with the ring finger sometimes coiled around the middle finger. This is intended to represent an E when held horizontal or a W when vertical, for east or west. I've seen it in television programs used for the east and west side of a given city, and it appears prominently in hip-hop culture for east or west coast, which are approximate divisions in general style of hip-hop. I suspect Wikipedia has an article on this somewhere, but for the life of me I cannot think of a search term to enter for it. 94.193.221.42 (talk) 00:49, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Pawnee people used the V sign

The Pawnee people used the v sign to show that they are Pawnee or if they where with a Pawnee Native American. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.149.45.220 (talk) 03:46, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

Do you have a source for this? I looked over Pawnee people but couldn't find any mention of this gesture.--Sus scrofa (talk) 09:34, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

Devil "horns"

What about the common practice of placing the "V sign" behind the head of somebody (as a joke) just before a photo is taken - signifying "devil horns"? — This probably falls under common knowledge at least in the USA; can anybody find a reliable source for this?  ~Peace, ✌ ~E 74.60.29.141 (talk) 17:24, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Ozzy Osbourne

How about to add Ozzy's picture with the V sign as well? All in all, he popularized the sign on entire rock scene. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.241.226.182 (talk) 00:36, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

V sign as an insult/Origins

"This story can be traced to the 1980s.[21]"

I've got an issue with this sentence, as I know it is not true. I'm not for one moment claiming that the Battle of Agincourt story is correct, but I do well recall being taught it at school in the late 70's - some 10 years before the sentence above says it can be dated to. I know personal research is not allowed on Wiki, so what's the procedure for removing claims like this, even when they are referenced? Obscurasky (talk) 21:29, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Pictures misleading

I find the two pictures of the v-sign in it's usage as "peace sign" are not appropriately away from the section on V-sign as an insult and therefore inappropriately placed in the article. CaffeinAddict (talk) 05:52, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

I only see one photo (Rihanna) that specifically refers to the sign's use as a 'peace sign', but agree that it's questionable. I would also question the caption on the Robbie Williams photo; yes it's orientated as you'd expect for an insult, but his facial expression indicates it's really intended to be more of a joke. Difficult to know how to word that. Obscurasky (talk) 09:24, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for your comment. It's would be good if you (CaffeinAddict) could indicate more clearly which pictures you refer to, and consider re-positioning them or carefully changing the caption yourself. Agree that getting pictures placed appropriately is important. The Churchill photo shows him giving the peace sign and that's next to the text mentioning him. Also, if we are not sure which sign is intended, seems best not to interpret that in the caption. The page is about the V-sign used with any customary meaning, "good" or "insulting", in any context. P0mbal (talk) 20:18, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

I suppose it would be different in various browsers and window sizes (not to mention the mobile version), but on my 13 inch laptop (pretty standard I think?) the photo of Rhianna and the Iranian Elections are both present imbedded with the "insults" section. I would rearrange the edit myself but I'm not the best at dealing with photos and sizes etc. CaffeinAddict (talk) 20:23, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Crecy reference

"Origins" MUST start with the earliest. However, that reference is a work of fiction, so perhaps should not be included. On the other hand, someone reading the novel may wish to confrim the "fact" by looking here. Such a reader would be none the wiser if that reference were omitted. So I reckon a) it should be retained; b) it should be first, as it is the earliest; and c) it should be made clear (which I have done) that it is only fiction. RobinClay (talk) 01:28, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

California requires celebs to show ‘V’ sign

April 27th, 2011, SACRAMENTO, Calif. — California passed a law today requiring celebrities to show the “V” sign when photographed on the street by paparazzi or everyday citizens. Gov. Jerry Brown has indicated he will sign the measure. http://newsthreat.com/blog/?p=1024 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 181.1.179.90 (talk) 20:01, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

That is obviously a satire site. Helpsome (talk) 20:05, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

Pictures for victory are aligned with text for "fuck you"

I'd like to correct this, but I don't understand how placement of pictures amid the text works. Maybe another editor can make the change. I'm reading the section "As an insult", and beside it is a picture [2] of Iranian protesters gesturing in a way that I understand to mean aspirations of victory.

And

Is there a better picture for the "Fuck you V-sign"? Or maybe something in addition. I see [3], but the facial expression conveys gleeful, empowered defiance. I don't see any pictures that convey the frustrated disgust that is often associated with the gesture as an insult.

Willondon (talk) 15:10, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Over somebody's head

The article doesn't mention making a V-sign or bunny-ears over somebody's head as a joke. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.29.125.226 (talk) 12:02, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

This article also doesn't mention the V signs usage in heavy rock/metal subculture as a sign of peace. N. C. Fortune (talk) 18:00, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

I agree. Here's one article: jasper jon (talk) 05:25, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

The Bowfinger / V-Sign in Pictures

Actual origins of the V sign (insult) in British Culture

There is no actual evidence for bowmen actually waving simply their bowfingers at the French, they more than likely simply waved their entire hand at them.

The first actual recording of using the V sign as an insult was by one Winston Churchill during the second world war, therefore making all theories about longbowmen waving thier bowfingers is redundant. 84.69.192.125 (talk) 18:47, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Please read the article: "It was not until the start of the 20th century that clear evidence of the use of insulting V sign in England became available, when in 1901 a worker outside Parkgate ironworks in Rotherham used the gesture, (captured on the film), to indicated he did not like being filmed" So it is clearly older than Churchill's usage --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 19:02, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Shearer. read the article! Additionally, I feel that USA domestic politics (Bush anecdotes etc) are not really relevant to the origins of the gesture. The probability is that there are medieval (or earlier) origins for the gesture in Britain and it is probably associated with warding off evil. A similar gesture is still used in Italy where the index and little fingers are raised and the middle and third fingers are held down by the thumb. i have lived in france for a long time and have asked about the 'V' gesture with the 2 fingers. The French say that it has no special origin (as far as they know) but it is considered to be extremely impolite and insulting; so much so that, in France they indicate the number 2 by using the thumb and forefinger.Miletus (talk) 20:01, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

The gesture had no significance during WWII, churchill did the V sign both ways: http://aarkangel.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/churchillvsign.jpg . I'd bet (although I can't prove it) that it's a recent invention backed by a funny story. Codik (talk) 21:35, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Don't bet your life on it. Again, the article clearly describes the event of 1901 which was captured on film. Churchill, being somewhat "elevated" in status and therefore not necessarily entirely in touch with "the common man", was ignorant of its use as an insult when made palm inward until he was brought 'up to speed'. And, contrary to the unsigned and undated comment below, ever since my first encounter with the palm-inward V sign I have always understood it to be the visual equivalent of "fuck off".

The meaning of the V sign is 'improved' by movement throughout. In my experience, most often the hand describes an arc between a point aimed more or less horizontally at the recipient(s) to a point more or less vertically upwards, and repeats it up and down as many as three or four times. --JH49S (talk) 17:13, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

I always thought the sign was a representation of the vulva, equivalent to calling someone a 'cunt' and probably a Roman thing. There's a reference to this idea in the book 'Sex Or Symbol?: Erotic Images of Greece and Rome' 1982, p73 By Catherine Johns. Particularly the version of the sign which has the tip of the thumb tucked between the 'V' shape. Worthy of inclusion?

This reminded me of Frankie Howerd's use of the gesture at the end of the comedy series "Up Pompeii" set in ancient Rome, he'd say "salute" affecting a presumed Latin pronunciation and flick up his two fingers at the viewers. Pretty risque in the 1970s UK, surprised he got away with it.Carol58mcguigan (talk) 16:19, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

That is one actual plausible explanation. I'd always assumed it was the medieaval English version of "making the devil's horns", as Miletus suggests above. It would be nice to find a source though. On the topic of Churchill, I'd always been told he knew perfectly well what it meant and why the British would regard it as a cheeky gesture of defiance, but who knows.Paulturtle (talk) 15:30, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

The Bowfinger

I have never heard the word bowfinger used for this gesture. To me it means a film with Steve Martin in it or a bistro in Paris (slightly differently spelled). I cannot find it in any dictionary. Does anyone have a reference for this usage? Rachel Pearce (talk) 20:26, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

I haven't, either, and nor has the OED. I've added a citation needed tag and suggested, on the gestures template talk page that the template link be moved to "V-sign". Dricherby (talk) 10:42, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Template link changed, since nobody objected here or there. Dricherby (talk) 16:43, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

I believe "Bowfinger" refers to the Hundred Years' War war in which the British Long bowers would have their bow fingers chopped off if they were caught, so in a way to insult the french, the British would put up their two fingers in a way to show they can still fight, hope that clears it up. Bobbutcher (talk) 15:31, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm afraid it doesn't clear it up at all. I have heard that story (in various forms) about the gesture many times, and it is discussed in the article. What I have never heard, until now, nor read in any dictionary, is the word "bowfinger" being used for this gesture. Do you have a reference for it? Rachel Pearce (talk) 22:05, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree. My first encounter with the term Bowfinger was the Steve Martin movie, and don't understand the term in any other context - even though the suggestion is very interesting. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JH49S (talk • contribs) 17:29, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

The Japanese V-Sign ("The ya")

In Japan, this sign is popular with women and is done by the eye on an angle. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.250.3.64 (talk) 01:07, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

The section 'Japan and the V sign in photographs' is a close paraphrase of its source here. I may be over-sensitive, but does anyone else have copyright worries? That site has no copyright or licensing statement, in which case I think the assumption is full copyright protection. Cnilep (talk) 14:57, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

I always wondered what this was about. This is an interesting discussion. Apparently it's not an entirely conscious action. Seregain (talk) 15:47, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

It's also widely used here in Taiwan when taking a picture. The gesture is called "the ya" because we usually say "ya" when doing the gesture. There's many speculation as to where it originated. Some say it started from an old TV variety show while others say it's related to the victory or peace sign. I haven't seen a conclusive explanation yet. I think it's likely that the Taiwanese and Japanese V sign are related, because both country have strong cultural influence on the other.Yel D'ohan (talk) 17:52, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

The reversed V on party pics

In continental Europe (Germany) it is a frequent habit to present the reversed or insulting V (with the palm facing the giver) on student party pictures. For me it remains a mystery if this is a misinterpretation of the English insult everyone is copying or a local variation in meaning? It just can't be the equivalent of giving "the finger", as so many are doing the gesture to convey a positive partying mood. Can anyone shed some light? Once the mystery is solved, it might be worth a mention in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zuckerberg (talk • contribs) 15:35, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

This is also very common in the U.S. It most often seems to be an attempt by young females to emulate gang signs. Johnskeller (talk) 10:54, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Right. Since I posted here, I had an eye on it and saw it on many US pictures as well. Also saw Keri Hilson do it after a promotional interview (see the video here, at runtime 00:11), sort of to "greet the viewers out there". I am still unsure if this is an obscene gesture or not, might emulate the cunnilingus gesture - or simply the Gibson "Flying V" guitar, like a musicians in-joke everyone has forgotten about since then. Zuckerberg (talk) 17:56, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Still unsolved. Recently, I saw the gesture during the 2009 World Championships in Athletics. Usain Bolt was preparing for a run: facing the camera, he kissed the inner side of his index and middle finger then formed the traditional (although reversed, thus vulgar) V-Sign with them and then transformed the gesture by tilting his wrist about 110 degrees and formed the mysterious "flying V". Anyone? Zuckerberg (talk) 15:57, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Without a reliable source as to what this all means/represents, it can't be included. J Milburn (talk) 16:41, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

This thread's idea is to understand the gesture first. And if it turns out to be related to the V-Sign, we should discuss/consider inclusion into the article. Agreed. Zuckerberg (talk) 10:45, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Any news on this topic? Zuckerberg (talk) 21:12, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

I think I've identified this gesture as "the Bowfinger", used as a less insulting version of the UK gesture. Like Steve McQueen uses it in the end of this movie, it means something like "I am still standing, still going strong", in a sort of a "my head still up" attitude. As a sidenote, you can see Steve Martin doing a mild vesion of it on the Bowfinger film poster, according to his character in the film, a film producer that tries to make it against all odds. Zuckerberg (talk) 18:36, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Cunnilingus gesture?

What about the similar gesture when someone holds the index and middle finger, spread wide, palm in, close to their lips and lasciviously waggles their tongue between the fingers, simulating cunnilingus? Worth a mention somewhere, don't you think? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.114.174.169 (talk) 00:28, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Not without a source see WP:PROVEIT --PBS (talk) 11:10, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Does this count? (I really am asking, I'm not a wikipedia expert.) jasper jon (talk) 05:28, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Nope. User-submitted content (such as UrbanDictionary entries) is not accepted as reliable. —174.141.182.82 (talk) 10:10, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

Pluck Yew

This is quite amusing - somebody heard the Agincourt legend and attempted to modify it for the middle finger gesture and the good people at Snopes appear to be unaware of the gesture that was the subject of the original legend.

Pluck Yew

199.168.151.163 (talk) 20:06, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

OR

V-signs in the stadium of Magnesia ad Meandrum

"The V sign for victory may have been used since antiquity. A stone carving representing two arms making the V-sign can be found among representations of chariot racers, palms and other victory themes in the ancient stadium of the Greco-Roman city of Magnesia ad Meandrum."

I have moved the image here along with the sentence. Interpretation of the image is OR (see WP:PSTS unless a reliable secondary source to make that interpretation. In which case the reliable secondary source needs to be be inline attributed unless this is a common interpretation among reliable secondary sources. -- PBS (talk) 13:48, 20 November 2015 (UTC)