Talk:Ursula (name)

Requested move 15 February 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. No consensus that there is a primary topic here. (closed by non-admin page mover) BilledMammal (talk) 14:18, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

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• Ursula (name) → Ursula
• Ursula → Ursula (disambiguation)

– Clearly the primary meaning Lokys dar Vienas (talk) 20:35, 15 February 2023 (UTC)— Relisting. Wikiexplorationandhelping (talk) 21:36, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

Oppose - How many people of note are named Ursula? And how many people could possibly be looking for the meaning of the name? I'm fairly sure that most people searching "Ursula" would be looking for either the album or film character, or at least that those two are as commonly searched for as the name itself.

You have a whole list of famous Ursulas on the page. --Killuminator (talk) 08:04, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

Assuming a name itself is the primary meaning of searching a name is wrong, we have the same situation for Victoria and Elizabeth, were the name itself is far from the most notable article. Estar8806 (talk) 04:03, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

Both much more common names with many more geographical pages than it's the case for this name. --Killuminator (talk) 08:06, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

• Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 05:17, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
• Support per nominator. --Killuminator (talk) 08:04, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
• https://wikinav.toolforge.org/?language=en&title=Ursula indicates there were 235 outgoing clicks to the anthroponymy article from this list out of 468, which is about 50%, which is still moot. Overall views of page views of Ursula topics at [1] and [2] indicate the most viewed topics called Ursula are Ursula Andress, Ursula von der Leyen, Ursula K. Le Guin, Úrsula Corberó, Ursula (The Little Mermaid), Ursula and Sabina Eriksson, Ursula Hayden, Saint Ursula, etc. The pattern seems to be that all these topics are people or characters using this given name, so it seems to make sense to show the anthroponymy set index first, and only then the long tail of other disambiguation. Perhaps if someone made a positive argument for some other non-name uses of Ursula making a dent...? --Joy (talk) 14:29, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose per Estar8806. There are eleven entries listed upon the Ursula disambiguation page, with no indication that a list of women bearing this name holds WP:PRIMARYTOPIC status above the combined notability of the remaining ten entries. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 20:23, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
  • Yes, there is an indication: https://wikinav.toolforge.org/?language=en&title=Ursula. And I find it natural that from "Ursula Von Der Whatever" most people can correctly remember only "Ursula" and hence consult the "Ursula" page. Lokys dar Vienas (talk) 21:05, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
  • I went to verify what you wrote, and found that these other entries are a handful of British naval vessels whose coverage seems routine, a Texas immigrant detention center, a couple of features observed in outer space, an album with no reception section at all, a handful of minor storms (no standalone articles), a stub about a body of water in the wilderness 500km north of Vancouver, an entry I removed because it wasn't even mentioned in the target article, etc. It's certainly a nice spread, but it seems like a long tail. Maybe the WWII-era submarine would be the most notable and generally interesting entry, but does that really rise to the status of us thinking that when the average reader looks up the term Ursula, it's at least equally as likely that they want to read about the naval vessel and this other stuff as that they're looking for people named that way? Seems doubtful. --Joy (talk) 18:42, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
• Support per nom. Clear primary topic. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:21, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose. There is no primary topic here. Rreagan007 (talk) 01:37, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Anthroponymy has been notified of this discussion. Fuzheado | Talk 03:23, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose and make Ursula (The Little Mermaid) the PTOPIC instead This shows the fictional character getting 1000+ views/day, easily outpacing the rest combined.—Bagumba (talk) 06:09, 1 March 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose And no move. There is clearly WP:NOPRIMARY here. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 09:53, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Category:Given names with negative perceived cultural associations

Bookworm857158367, I'm sorry, how does a villain in a cartoon and live-action film having a particular name justify inclusion in this category, which appears to have entirely subjective inclusion criteria (i.e., none actually stated). Are "perceived negative associations" not outweighed or nullified by the positive associations (famous bearers of the name, including Ursula Andress and a saint)? Both sources added (are nameberry and appellationmountain even reliable sources?) mention the Disney film in passing do not outline how there is a negative connotation, or even if there is one - just "some peope might associate the name with this character." And? Pretty much every name should be in the category, so, because I can find you a villain, criminal, or "negative perceived cultural association" for every name - real world or fictional - probably, except newly-invented Tragedeigh names. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 11:25, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

And what are “Tragedeigh” names? If the first thing people think about the name is the negative cultural association, it’s probably been written about. With Ursula, the association is “sea witch.”, per assorted sources. That doesn’t mean it’s the only association, just that people wrote about it in various sources. Bookworm857158367 (talk) 15:51, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

Precisely - it's entirely subjective. Your first association for the name Ursula is 'Disney villain'. Mine is 'famous actress'. So, Q.E.D., it's absolutely not a defining characteristic. (A "Tragedeigh" is a given name that has been deliberately misspelled or made up to appear more unique than it actually is. E.g., from the most recent post there: Alivyah, Abbigayle, Ashen, Aristyn, Bocephus, Brinlei, Dalice (Dallas??), E’lara, Hurlie, Irelynn, Jaushua, Kendoll, Kernie, Kayzlee, Liberteigh, Lowgin... etc. Point being, they're too new/uncommon to have positive or negative assoications, apart maybe from sympathy.) Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 16:08, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

• • Everything is subjective, since everyone has a different opinion, but the only thing that this sort of thing is supposed to be based on is written sources. There are written sources listing the Disney villain as a source of negative cultural associations which have been cited. Your opinions regarding "tragedeigh" names are of course also highly subjective and uniquely your own.

Bookworm857158367 (talk) 21:22, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

Are you familiar with WP:DEFINING or WP:DUE? My opinions on Tragedeigh names are indeed highly subjective, but are at least common enough that there's a thriving subreddit. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 10:15, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

Also subject to interpretation, though I'm sure I can find an additional five or ten citations for names in said category, in which case the page will be tagged for excessive citations like the Daenerys and Khaleesi articles. Bookworm857158367 (talk) 16:08, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

followup to move discussion

https://wikinav.toolforge.org/?language=en&title=Ursula indicates that in October '23, there were 499 views of Ursula, and we could identify 229 outgoing clickstreams to the name list, 116 to the Disney character, and 16 to the saint. These three amount to ~72% of the views, while all of the other meanings are beneath the pseudonymization thresholds at least. --Joy (talk) 19:53, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

A look back into the clickstream archive produces similar results:

August:

• clickstream-enwiki-2023-08.tsv:Ursula Ursula_(name) link 187
• clickstream-enwiki-2023-08.tsv:Ursula Ursula_(The_Little_Mermaid) link 110
• clickstream-enwiki-2023-08.tsv:Ursula Saint_Ursula link 15

September:

• clickstream-enwiki-2023-09.tsv:Ursula Ursula_(name) link 266
• clickstream-enwiki-2023-09.tsv:Ursula Ursula_(The_Little_Mermaid) link 134
• clickstream-enwiki-2023-09.tsv:Ursula Saint_Ursula link 22

It's also interesting to see how some people consistently seem to land at the character page and then go to Ursula from there manually (as there doesn't seem to be an explicit link AFAICT):

• clickstream-enwiki-2023-08.tsv:Ursula_(The_Little_Mermaid) Ursula other 11
• clickstream-enwiki-2023-09.tsv:Ursula_(The_Little_Mermaid) Ursula other 24
• clickstream-enwiki-2023-10.tsv:Ursula_(The_Little_Mermaid) Ursula other 21

This sounds like they're either getting wrongly navigated in the first place, or they're looking for the meaning of that title. --Joy (talk) 19:58, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

Variant forms

This article says Ursula is a feminine given name, and currently shows Uschi, Usch and Urs as variants. I'm fine with Uschi. I cannot find any WP article for someone called Usch. The infobox links the Urs variant to a masculine given name. Can someone more familiar with German familiar names please comment or fix these? Masato.harada (talk) 10:23, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

I believe Uschi is a German nickname and Ursel is as well. I have also seen Sula, Ulla and Ursi in name dictionaries. I doubt that Urs is in any formal published sources as a standalone, though it is probably an informal nickname. Bookworm857158367 (talk) 19:01, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Ursula the Disney villain

The Disney character is one of the best known characters with the name and citations have referenced that fact. Rather than removing cited material, perhaps additional references to other Ursulas could be added to the article. Bookworm857158367 (talk) 12:36, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

There should be a stop to the recent edit warring over this disambiguation article. Specifically, it has been changed back and forth several times due to arguments about the character Ursula from the 1989 Disney animated film The Little Mermaid and its 2023 live-action remake of the same name.

Facts:

- There has been a dispute over whether Ursula (The Little Mermaid) should be described here as a 'character' or as a 'villain'. Currently, this article lists her as 'from the film'. Her main article states she is a character who is a villainous sea witch.

- This article currently mentions Ursula (The Little Mermaid) in the lead section. It then lists WP articles for 74 real people and another 21 fictional people named Ursula or Ursule.

My opinion:

- All the other fictional people are listed using NPOV descriptions. I see no reason why Ursula (The Little Mermaid) should be described here as a 'villain' or 'villainous'. That is the job of the main Ursula (The Little Mermaid) article.

- I also see no reason why Ursula (The Little Mermaid) should have prominence in the lead section over the 95 other WP articles. Disambiguation pages are not the place for discussion of 'who is the most prominent Ursula?' That should be in the main article, with sources. See MOS:DAB and MOS:DABNOLINK .

I propose the following:

1. The lead section should not include mention of Ursula (The Little Mermaid).

2. In this article's list, Ursula (The Little Mermaid) should remain neutral as current, without mentioning 'villain' or 'villainous'.

Reasoned opinions please, especially Bookworm857158367, Sjones23, and FilmandTVFan28.

Masato.harada (talk) 15:52, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Every source cited refers to her as a villain. This is not a disambiguation article; it is an article about the historyvand usage of the name like dozens of other existing name articles. Feel free to add additional cited material about the history and use of the name. I oppose any removal of the current cited material. Bookworm857158367 (talk) 17:29, 5 April 2024 (UTC)