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ʻUlulani edit
- The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was: nomination withdrawn. Jenks24 (talk) 08:01, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
- Okinas are okay to use now like in ʻIolani Palace.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 18:47, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
Supporteven though there is a potential issue in that OS and font support for this Unicode character is more recent than for, say, the WGL-4 subset of Unicode (the latter is pretty much guaranteed to display on any computer that is still functioning today). The ʻOkina article implies that it might not work in IE6, for instance. However, due to the nature of this character, there is little harm caused: if it displays as _Ululani (where _ is the OS-dependent display glyph for unknown characters), then people unfamiliar with or indifferent to non-ASCII characters will still see a so-called "plain English" version with no letters missing. This contrasts with, say, displaying Spi_al Tap if the (fictional?) n-with-umlaut character is unavailable in the OS or font. So any harm to people who can't see the character is very mitigated and is outweighed by the benefit to those who care about the character and are able to see it. — P.T. Aufrette (talk) 22:26, 28 May 2012 (UTC)- Although the Illustrated Hawaiian Dictionary (cited below) clearly shows a personal name written as ʻUlulani, another okina-using source omits the okina before "Ulu-lani". Given the uncertainty and nominator's withdrawal of the nomination, caution seems advised. — P.T. Aufrette (talk) 14:27, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
RequestCan you please link to the appropriate MOS please, WP:Naming conventions (Hawaiian), WP:Naming conventions (Polynesian), or whatever to demonstrate that ʻ has community consensus? Thanks. In ictu oculi (talk) 00:51, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose [following nominator's withdrawn request] In ictu oculi (talk) 07:25, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose. Since using the actual okina character creates technical problems, MOS:HAWAII recommends the markup {{okina}} with a piped link. That implies okinas shouldn't be used in titles. This name is not spelled with an okina on GBooks, not even once.[1] Kauffner (talk) 11:53, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- Comment - Kauffner's GBook searches in RMs on diacritics are usually, with respect, proving the exact opposite of his own view, demonstrating only that mass market paperbacks have a lower MOS than en.wp does, and that 100% of en.wp MOS equivalent sources do. But in this case if zero sources have okina that presumably includes en.wp MOS equivalent sources. KAVEBEAR - Linguistics and Anthropology. In Honor of C.F. Voegelin. Edited by Dale M. Kinkade, Kenneth L. Hale and Otmar Werner. 1975. doesn't have it, do you have any more modern Google Scholar sources which do? In ictu oculi (talk) 00:23, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
- If you search for apostrophe-Ululani, you will find the "a" entry in the Illustrated Hawaiian Dictionary. Maybe OCR when scanning interprets it as an apostrophe. I suspect a lot of (especially older) sources used apostrophe for lack of okina support in fonts and character sets. On the other hand, you can also find a sentence like this: "The composer-chanter was the high chiefess Ulu-lani of Hilo, Hawai'i, remembered as the mother of the defiant Christian convert, Ka-pi'o-lani", which uses apostrophes for okinas yet omits it before Ulu-lani. Are there variant forms of the name with and without the okina? — P.T. Aufrette (talk) 02:35, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
- You know what. Kauffner is right. Ululani means "heavenly inspiration" and a search of the Hawaiian dictionary, the only ulu that fits that is "Possessed by a god; inspired by a spirit, god, ideal, person, as for artistic creation; stirred, excited; to enter in and inspire" which is the ulu without the okina while ʻulu means breadfruit, leg muscle, stone.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 04:03, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
- KAVEBEAR, does that mean that (Q.1) Ululani the Hawaiian chiefess is or isn't represented with an ʻ in any English source, and (Q.2) ʻ is or isn't accepted by MOS:HAWAII? Are you withdrawing the RM? In ictu oculi (talk) 04:53, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
- 1. No. 2. I have no idea, and yes I redraw this.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 05:20, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
- Okay, I have no idea what happens now. I suppose you could edit "...ʻIolani Palace]]. NOMINATOR WITHDRAWS PROPOSAL --[[User:KAVEBEAR... into the heading? Thanks for the RM anyway, it was interesting :) In ictu oculi (talk) 07:25, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
- 1. No. 2. I have no idea, and yes I redraw this.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 05:20, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
- KAVEBEAR, does that mean that (Q.1) Ululani the Hawaiian chiefess is or isn't represented with an ʻ in any English source, and (Q.2) ʻ is or isn't accepted by MOS:HAWAII? Are you withdrawing the RM? In ictu oculi (talk) 04:53, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
- You know what. Kauffner is right. Ululani means "heavenly inspiration" and a search of the Hawaiian dictionary, the only ulu that fits that is "Possessed by a god; inspired by a spirit, god, ideal, person, as for artistic creation; stirred, excited; to enter in and inspire" which is the ulu without the okina while ʻulu means breadfruit, leg muscle, stone.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 04:03, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
- If you search for apostrophe-Ululani, you will find the "a" entry in the Illustrated Hawaiian Dictionary. Maybe OCR when scanning interprets it as an apostrophe. I suspect a lot of (especially older) sources used apostrophe for lack of okina support in fonts and character sets. On the other hand, you can also find a sentence like this: "The composer-chanter was the high chiefess Ulu-lani of Hilo, Hawai'i, remembered as the mother of the defiant Christian convert, Ka-pi'o-lani", which uses apostrophes for okinas yet omits it before Ulu-lani. Are there variant forms of the name with and without the okina? — P.T. Aufrette (talk) 02:35, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
- Comment - Kauffner's GBook searches in RMs on diacritics are usually, with respect, proving the exact opposite of his own view, demonstrating only that mass market paperbacks have a lower MOS than en.wp does, and that 100% of en.wp MOS equivalent sources do. But in this case if zero sources have okina that presumably includes en.wp MOS equivalent sources. KAVEBEAR - Linguistics and Anthropology. In Honor of C.F. Voegelin. Edited by Dale M. Kinkade, Kenneth L. Hale and Otmar Werner. 1975. doesn't have it, do you have any more modern Google Scholar sources which do? In ictu oculi (talk) 00:23, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.