Talk:Turtle/Archive 3

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

More genetic evidence for a sister relationship between turtles and archosaurs

A new genetic analysis of Testudinata reinforces the placement of the clade as sister to Archosauria (Crawford et al. 2014), prompting the erection of the name Archelosauria to accommodate not only turtles but also Archosauria. Any idea if we should integrate the cladogram and conclusions of the paper into the article?

Nicholas G. Crawford, James F. Parham, Anna B. Sellas, Brant C. Faircloth, Travis C. Glenn, Theodore J. Papenfuss, James B. Henderson, Madison H. Hansen & W. Brian Simison (2014) A phylogenomic analysis of turtles. Molecular Phylogenetics and Evolution (advance online publication) DOI: 10.1016/j.ympev.2014.10.021 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1055790314003819.Extrapolaris (talk) 00:41, 26 November 2014 (UTC)Vahe Demirjian

Why is it locked?

There are some pretty major errors in this article which I would be happy to correct were it not locked. For example, the writers seem to be unable to distinguish between Turtles, Terrapins and Tortoises. I don't know about the US but in the UK, Aus, South Africa, New Zealand and India they have different names because they are DIFFERENT SPECIES. It's laughable to see a picture of a tortoise with the caption 'turtle in Czech Republic'. It's like having a picture of a dog with the caption 'sea lion in Czech Republic.'

If you don't know already

Tortoises - Entirely land based

Terrapins - Amphibious with stumpy legs

Turtles - Aquatic with flippers, but somewhat amphibious

—Preceding unsigned comment added by MrJaggers (talk • contribs)

Unfortunately, this article seems to be a magnet for school-kids adding nonsense and other vandalism...every time we try unprotecting, the problem reoccurs, in a pattern going back years:( However, it's only semi-protected, so as soon as you are autoconfirmed, you can edit the article. DMacks (talk) 21:48, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Furthermore, your "definitions" are wrong. Mokele (talk) 00:53, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

They were only general definitions in layman's terms silly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.173.216.26 (talk) 14:12, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

They're wrong for the layman's terms, or at least the last two are. Leg length has nothing to do with it. See the page terrapin for a nice chart. Mokele (talk) 16:09, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

That's because kids love turtles (hence the many innacurate edits prior to the article having been locked). And maybe also because there are so many fairy tales about turtles as well.

It's good to protect celebrity pages, even of the turtle variety!TUETLES ARE AWESOEME98.173.62.28 (talk) 16:17, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

I like turtles — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.244.137.152 (talk) 16:36, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Just gonna go out there and say that it's locked because nobody seems to get that this page is for the taxonomic order Testudines. It is not a species page. "Turtle" can refer both to marine-dwelling species in the order (which is how most of us use it), or can refer the order Testudines as a whole (which include tortoises). Words can mean more than one thing; "Turtle" just has both a general and more specific meaning in English. "Tortoise" refers more specifically to taxonomic family Testudinidae. Terrapins do not have a taxonomic unit, because it's a distinction that appears in English, not in species classification. "Terrapin" is a widely accepted (but not formal) term for very small species of marine-dwelling Testudines. 99.244.230.178 (talk) 06:49, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

Why are there so many pictures of tortoises on this page?

even a 4 year old knows turtles are animals that live in water and have flippers,terrapins are amphibious and tortoises have legs and live on land. So for an esteemed enclopedia like Wikipedia I think its a disgrace that so called educated people dont know the difference between a turtle and tortoise.

The 4 year old doesn't understand taxonomic units, which is fair enough. Tortoises are in the order Testudines. This wikipedia page is for the order Testudines. Hence, there are tortoises on this page. The order is called "turtle" in a general sense, despite the fact that we more commonly use "turtle" to refer specifically to marine species of the order Testudines. In this sense, all tortoises are turtles, but not all turtles are tortoises. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.244.230.178 (talk) 07:00, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

That distinction is not universal to all varieties of English, either. Oh, and educated people know that sentences start with capital letters, that it is "encyclopedia" or "encyclopaedia", that there is a difference between "its" and "it's", and that "don't" is a contraction that requires an apostrophe. --Khajidha (talk) 13:13, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

Anjali das gupta (talk) 05:04, 6 August 2015 (UTC) Regarding edit of page

Anjali das gupta (talk) 05:04, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Hey greetings

Can I edit this page with some good sources ." turtles tear essential for butterflies"

May I know that can I edit this autoconfirmed page and Do I am an autoconfirmed user.

Anjali das gupta (talk) 05:04, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Thanku

Regarding the edit

Anjali das gupta (talk) 05:06, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Greetings

My sources are

https://bcrc.bio.umass.edu/courses/fall2013/biol/biol312section1/content/butterflies-drinking-turtle-tears

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2474840/Julia-butterflies-rely-TURTLE-TEARS-survive.html

Thank you Anjali das gupta (talk) 05:06, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Pigeon-Eating

Just noting that a certain species of turtle has now been seen hunting and eating pigeons. https://www.facebook.com/ozzymanreviews/videos/990200931015774/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.54.227.221 (talk) 17:36, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

Turtles appeared earlier

According to the page, turtles appeared 157 million years ago in the Jurassic Period. This is incorrect for they actually appeared 220 million years ago in the Triassic Period. Odontochelys semitestacea was the first species of turtle that originated in the Triassic.

Here is the wikipedia link about Odontochelys semitestacea

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odontochelys

Either it is wrong or the turtle page is wrong. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lolothegeneral (talk • contribs) 23:52, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

The reference cited on the turtle page (Joyce 2007) applies the term Testudines only to the crown group (i.e. the group containing the last common ancestor of Pleurodira and Cryptodira and all its descendants), which seems to have appeared in the Jurassic Period. Odontochelys is not a member of the crown group, so it cannot be included in such defined Testudines; it is, however, a member of the more inclusive group Pantestudines. That being said, the cited source does not restrict the usage of the vernacular term "turtles" to members of the crown group only, and explicitly refers to Triassic taxa such as Proterochersis and Proganochelys (which it does not include in Testudines) as turtles. Also, the section about the classification of turtles also assigns to Testudines some taxa which may lie outside the crown group, such as meiolaniids. So this might be original synthesis. --Macrochelys (talk) 21:35, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 March 2016

There seems to be a problem with the taxonomy if you are viewing the page when not logged in it says the ordo is "Testudinata turtles gotta pull their pants down get on the floor and do it (page does not exist)". When logged in it displays the correct ordo. If you click on edit the page it does not show up so I am unsure where this text is coming from. Delurin (talk) 03:25, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

Question: @Delurin: I can't find anything, but it's likely saw vandalism to one of the templates on the page. Can you explain where you saw it? In the infobox? Bottom of page? Just WP:PING me in reply. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 05:18, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 May 2016

Please change: The rigid shell means that turtles cannot breathe as other reptiles do, by changing the volume of their chest cavities via expansion and contraction of the ribs. Instead, they breathe in two ways. First, they employ buccal pumping, pulling air into their mouths, then pushing it into their lungs via oscillations of the floor of the throat. Secondly, when the abdominal muscles that cover the posterior opening of the shell contract, the internal volume of the shell increases, drawing air into the lungs, allowing these muscles to function in much the same way as the mammalian diaphragm.

To: The rigid shell means that turtles cannot breathe as other reptiles do, by changing the volume of their chest cavities via expansion and contraction of the ribs. Instead, they breathe in two ways. First, they employ limb pumping, sucking air into their lungs and pushing it out by moving the limbs in and out relative to the shell. Secondly, when the abdominal muscles that cover the posterior opening of the shell contract, the pressure inside the shell and lungs decreases, drawing air into the lungs, allowing these muscles to function in much the same way as the mammalian diaphragm. A second set of abdominal muscles face the opposite way and when they contract they expel air under positive pressure.

Sources:

Landberg, T., Mailhot, J. D., & Brainerd, E. L. (2003). Lung ventilation during treadmill locomotion in a terrestrial turtle, Terrapene carolina. Journal of Experimental Biology, 206(19), 3391-3404.

Landberg, T., Mailhot, J. D., & Brainerd, E. L. (2009). Lung ventilation during treadmill locomotion in a semi‐aquatic turtle, Trachemys scripta. Journal of Experimental Zoology Part A: Ecological Genetics and Physiology, 311(8), 551-562.

Druzisky, K. A., & Brainerd, E. L. (2001). Buccal oscillation and lung ventilation in a semi-aquatic turtle, Platysternon megacephalum. Zoology, 104(2), 143-152. 71.230.173.105 (talk) 12:14, 29 May 2016 (UTC)

 Done. Good catch!  OUR Wikipedia (not "mine")! Paine  05:18, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

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The first one gets a 404 not found error for the archive, should be removed. Second one is a site for a turtle farm encouraging touism. Also should be removed. cheers Faendalimas ^talk 01:03, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

Inconsistency on page

In the "Systematics and evolution" section it says that turtles appeared in the Triassic, however the taxobox states the temporal range as beginning in the Jurassic.Kmj046 (talk) 20:51, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

Turtles are reptiles — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.141.65.7 (talk) 20:34, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 2 September 2017

There is a typo: "Tortoises are may be vocal when courting and mating" 83.38.27.102 (talk) 09:19, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

Done Gulumeemee (talk) 10:10, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 October 2017

TURTLES ARE RERALLY SLOW 208.101.214.110 (talk) 15:23, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

Not done: Already implied to a certain extent "Tortoises are famous for moving slowly, in part because of their heavy, cumbersome shells, which restrict stride length." –72 _(talk) 19:28, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 October 2017

turtles eat dead fish 24.97.116.126 (talk) 15:48, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. —KuyaBriBri^Talk 16:11, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

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Lead

It says, However, because of their high metabolic rate, leatherback sea turtles have a body temperature that is noticeably higher than that of the surrounding water. It's still not a warm-blooded animal. I don't think this detail needs to be in the lead as one of the most important things we want to know about turtles. It should be noted in the article text, however.

I think it may be relatively more significant that leatherbacks are the world's largest turtle at 900kg or so, but the largest land turtles, the Galapagos tortoises, are less than half that at 400kg, and speckled tortoises are the smallest turtle at around 100-150g. I think most of the animal articles tell us how big the animal is in the lead.

We may also consider mentioning that they have a beak, claws (or flippers), tails and leathery skin. A turtle is an object, and how do we know when we have one of them? It obviously has a shell, but it's not the only animal with a shell. If a child picks up a crab, does he know it isn't a turtle? One of the most patently interesting facts about a turtle, is that if you pick one up, it is likely to completely withdraw into its shell. A child will think that is a fascinating animal.

Stating that turtles do not lay eggs underwater is an awkward way of saying that turtles reproduce oviparously.

Turtles can be herbivorous, carnivorous, or omnivorous. Sounds like that's a tautology, but since most animals are one or the other, it sets turtles apart.

It's not perfectly clear from the lead that turtle can or does refer to land-dwelling animals as well as water-dwelling ones. I live in the U.S. and we always called the land-dwelling animals turtles and ocean dwelling animals, sea-turtles. I may not have known as a child that there were fresh-water turtles as well.

The lead perhaps implies that turtles can live on land (and I'm not so sure it directly implies that), but it's insufficient. A monkey is a land-dweller, but it's specious to say it that way, because the interesting thing about monkeys is that they live in trees. The interesting thing about turtles is that they don't. I also think it's generally true that most species live at low altitudes and low to mid-latitudes. Turtles can be found on every continent, except Antarctica. Most turtle species are found in southeastern North America and South Asia. Only five species live in Europe. I'm not sure where most sea turtles are found, but I think they're mostly tropical.

The lead is skimpy, let's beef it up, suggestions above. Typically, the lead is 4-5 modest paragraphs of 4-6 lines of 20-25 words each, or 400-500 words. The existing one is ~190 words, so there's room to grow.

Sbalfour (talk) 17:57, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

I agree with much of what you said. I noticed the too long tag yesterday, I figured I would fix the article, thinking in terms of length and while at it updating content. It also needs restructuring. Please tag anything you think needs to be changed. I am going to to do it piece by piece so its easier for others to look at the changes. Cheers Scott Thomson (Faendalimas) ^talk 00:50, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

Article too long?

A maintenance tag appeared about a month ago essentially stating the article is too long. Hmmmmm.... I don't see how to reasonably split it. Nor do I see any unjustified content, except a trailing junk section I deleted. Maybe that helps some. The Systematics section has a cladogram that's very elaborate, and unhelpful. I wonder if part of that could be put under a show/hide template? Or the cladogram split into multiple cladograms, one high level, and a few others detailed levels. Maybe we don't need all the detailed branches? I avoid looking at it because it's garish. Do we want our readers to do the same?

Sbalfour (talk) 01:24, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

I would propose to delete the big tree, ie this section, as its too big and also completely wrong. Just have the classification. I agree its too long. Cheers Scott Thomson (Faendalimas) ^talk 02:03, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

Ok I am going to go through it and make some updates and take out some erroneous info, plus try to shorten it. Cheers Scott Thomson (Faendalimas) ^talk 05:58, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

Oh, wow. Deleting the entire cladogram certainly is bold. I may take it into my sandbox and see what I can do with it. A top level article like this one can support a cladogram. The classification itself goes down to family level, and there are a lot of turtles. That's an accurate perceptual conveyance. But does it help our understanding? It is larger than one browser page, so I have to scroll up and down, up and down, to grasp the thing. It may sensibly be reduced, I think. For example, in article Cryptodira, there is another classification tree identical to the one for suborder Cryptodira here.

From the top of the classification tree to the bottom, including the zero-th level for order Testudinata, there are ten levels of indentation. Ordinarily, the solution would be to reduce the tree by knocking out all lower level classifications like family. But that would chop off the primitive branches of families at the top of the tree. It's the number of indentation levels we really need to reduce. I think we could move the tree for Suborder Pleurodira into that article, which currently looks anemic, and delete the tree below suborder Crypotodira along with it. Then it looks like this:

Classification of turtles

Order Testudinata Klein 1760

• Genus †Pappochelys Schoch & Sues 2015
• Family †Proganochelyidae Baur 1887
• Family †Australochelidae Gaffney & Kitching 1994 sensu Lee 1997
• Family †Proterochersidae Nopcsa 1928
• Clade †Mesochelydia
  • Family †Indochelyidae Datta, Manna, Ghosh & Das 2000
  • Family †Heckerochelyidae Sukhanov 2006
• Clade †Perichelydia
  • Family †Chelycarapookidae Warren 1969
  • Family †Sichuanchelyidae Tong et al. 2012
  • Family †Solemydidae de Lapparent de Broin & Murelaga 1996
    • Clade †Meiolaniformes
      • Family †Meiolaniidae Lydekker 1887
      • Family †Otwayemyidae Gaffney et al. 1998
      • Genus †Trapalcochelys Sterli, de la Fuente & Cerda 2013
      • Genus †Chubutemys Gaffney et al. 2007
      • Genus †Peligrochelys Sterli & de la Fuente 2012
  • Family †Kallokibotiidae Nopcsa 1923
  • Clade Testudines Linnaeus, 1758
    • Suborder Pleurodira Cope 1864
    • Suborder Cryptodira Duméril & Bibron 1835

$\rightarrow$ For classifications below suborder, see suborder articles.

Now, we might have room for a comfortable cladogram corresponding to the classification tree. It's duplicate info, but pictorial content attracts kids, and kids like turtles :-) Sbalfour (talk) 17:10, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

I am not sure a cladogram of this magnitude is a good idea, and many of the groups you want to remove are also considered turtles, if you want to put pleurodira in the pleurodira page, why not do the same to cryptodira, the pleurodira part is most certainly wrong as is large sections of the cryptodiran tree. I did save it as a sub page in my user page here, I did not just delete it. I know it was a bold change, I agree, and I thought long and hard about it. I am a taxonomist and paleontologist, but I think this tree is too complex for the general reader and too innacurate. Cheers Scott Thomson (Faendalimas) ^talk 00:58, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

I'm not an expert on turtles, so have thus far refrained from doing the editing. I am however, relatively experienced in composition and MOS structuring of articles. Animals are among the most familiar of objects, and turtles are known to everyone. So the article on turtles should be very accessible to everyone. The phylogeny certainly isn't - it comes straight out of a molecular genomics research paper. I'd consider it belongs in a separate article, but that's a very awkward division, scholarship-wise. The cladogram in any case is duplicate information. In a scientific journal, we can shuffle the cladogram to convey relationships both horizontally and vertically, for comparative purposes. In an article for the general public, I don't think it conveys any additional understanding of the content. Removing it entirely was bold, but I would vote at this time that your action stand. If the cladogram is restored, it should be limited to 6-8 branching levels, and be placed in a sidebox, like a photo or diagram. Spanning from Order to Family in the taxonomy for this article is too much is the basic issue. Sbalfour (talk) 17:32, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

Too many female sea turtles

I don't see any mention in the article that sea turtle sex isn't determined by sex chromosomes, but by the temperature of the water around the embryo. It matters greatly for conservation, because global warming is resulting in a predominance of female sea turtles. Sbalfour (talk) 22:05, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

I will get the recent refs on this and add it in as I am rewriting. Its relevant to all TSD type species, not just sea turtles. Cheers Scott Thomson (Faendalimas) ^talk 23:05, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

Why are tortoises turtles?

why are tortoises contained in this? maybe we should move the page to a different name because turtles live in water and tortoises live on land, I know the difference i have a pet tortoise. Pigginator1 (talk) 18:17, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

Try reading the article, which has lengthy explanations of the different usages of the terms. Turtles often don't "live in water", but spend a lot of time there. Johnbod (talk) 21:11, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

Turtle Respiration

I added a subheading underneath the shell subheading for turtle respiration. Respiration in turtles is unique among amniotes and I think it would be very interesting and unique to expand on the ventilation done in Testudines. Respiration, for many amniotes, is achieved by the contraction and relaxation of specific muscle groups (i.e. intercostals, abdominal muscles, and/or a diaphragm) attached to an internal rib-cage that can expand or contract the body wall thus allowing air to flow in and out of the lungs. In Testudines, however, their rigid shell and a lack of intercostal muscles prevent this type of costal ventilation from occurring. The ribs of chelonians are fused with their carapace and external to their pelvic and pectoral girdles, a feature unique among turtles. I have been doing a lot of research as of late for an undergraduate project and I will be making small edits to improve and expand upon this section. Inquisitio scientiae (talk) 01:55, 25 April 2018 (UTC)

Neck Retraction

I added more information regarding the function of and structures for neck retraction. I am an undergraduate doing research on the turtle and will be adding to this section to expand the information on the phenomena of neck retraction for both Cryptodira and Pleurodira. Apairofwoolsocks (talk) 21:59, 30 April 2018 (UTC)

Neck retraction

Contributed information on the anatomy behind neck retraction, which focuses specifically on the cervical vertebrae. More information on neck retraction will be added to the Cryptodire page in the future, which examines retraction straight back between the pectoral girdles. This information is from research and dissection being done at a university lab. Petrikyv (talk) 22:04, 30 April 2018 (UTC)

Genetic and molecular tests

Given that all living reptiles are diapsids, can someone explain how a genetic or molecular test can place turtles either inside or outside diaspids? There are no non-diapsids to compare with. If turtles end up outside lizards + crocodiles, that doesn't tell whether they're diapsids that split off first or non-diapsids. If they end up between lizards and crocodiles, that doesn't tell us whether they're diapsids or diapsids themselves are polyphyletic - the skull openings of lizards and crocodiles can be convergent rather than homologous. What I'm driving at is that I don't understand how the study of modern genetic or molecular material can tell us the relationship to animals that are no longer here in order to be included in the study.2001:8A0:F034:3901:BD7F:A7D2:6377:78E6 (talk) 17:42, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

In part I agree in part I disagree with what you are saying. First up whether turtles are or are not diapsids is somewhat debatable, second, any idiot that only relies on molecular data is not doing taxonomy but may as well be guessing. Molecular data is a single tool and must be utilised with morphological data for a total evidence approach, tis of course brings in the fossils. Third non reptiles as outgroups are utilized and are perfectly reasonable and can be used to root the tree hence placing the turtles. Whether this is succesful or not is not te point, the point is its a reasonable and acceptable methodology. Cheers Scott Thomson (Faendalimas) ^talk 12:37, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

British naming conventions

I live in the UK, and this may just be me, but I think the section on UK naming conventions is wrong. Here they use 'Tortoise' for land-dwelling chelonians, 'Turtle' for saltwater, and 'Terrapins' for freshwater. Of course, this could just be me, or a local dialect, but considering there is already no source for the current information, I thought my own experience here could at least also count. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.171.169.60 (talk) 11:34, 8 September 2018 (UTC)

References

Dlslager (talk) 15:05, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 20 February 2019

turtles are really cool! Turtle king89 (talk) 16:25, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: Indeed, but that can't really be added to the article : ). aboideau^talk 16:31, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

American influence

Referring to Tortoises under the heading Turtle is a particularly American phenomenon and could be used to support the argument that Wikipedia is overly American biased. It would be more balanced if Turtles and Tortoises were defined separately.John Turner, Burgh House (talk) 11:54, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

Quite the opposite, actually. Using "turtle" to refer to only aquatic species is a usage particular to British English and not followed elsewhere. The categorization of all shelled reptiles as "turtles" with "tortoises" referring to only a subset is the standard scientific usage worldwide, as it reflects the taxonomic reality. All tortoises are turtles, but not all turtles are tortoises. oknazevad (talk) 17:20, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

Page views

Regards, Sun Creator^(talk) 16:26, 16 October 2019 (UTC)

Do turtles have ears and how well do they hear?

Do turtles have ears, and how well do they hear? This info could be added to the "Head" section. Acwilson9 (talk) 01:07, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

Systematics and evolution

There is now strong evidence that turtles are diapsids and sister to archosaurs. This comes from molecular evidence (e.g., Crawford et al. 2012, Field et al. 2014) as well as morphological evidence (e.g. Bever et al. 2015, Schoch and Sues 2015). It would be useful to lead the "Systematics and evolution" section with the information that turtles are diapsids sister to archosaurs. Currently this section consists of a lengthy and convoluted history of controversy instead of getting to the point. [not signed]

And, three specimens are known from the Upper Triassic of China. 4th ed of Benton gives the sources. Macdonald-ross (talk) 17:19, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

As someone who does actually study turtle evolution this issue is far from settled. Leading with they are diapsids is not really an accurate discussion of what is known. I do not believe they are anapsids, though the statement that early phylogeniies currently in the page assumed turtles were anapsids is not actually correct, what was assumed was the polarity of a number of characters and a misunderstanding of the bauplan of the turtle skull. Personally I think the view they are Archelosaurs is the most inclusive of all that is known, however there is a major issue in turtles. First the molecular studies are not genomic wide and do not include enough species. Hence their results are not well supported. Also they do not reconsile the morphological trees and the molecular trees. This causes further reduction in the robusity of these phylogenies. Lastly when yused for dating the molecular studies make many assumptions on the identity and placement of the fossils being used for calibration. Even the oldest known turtles some 240 million years, are already turtles hence there is clearly a long ghost linneage at play here. I have no problem with this being updatedbut I suggest a coservative approach to it. Keep the assumptions down. Cheers Scott Thomson (Faendalimas) ^talk 20:14, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

Habitat

According to the picture, the range of land turtles includes southern Newfoundland. This is not so, as Newfoundland has no indigenous land turtles. turtles are edangered, 4,600 turtles are killed

in one year by abigail sydinski inc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.163.154.148 (talk • contribs) 09:16, 28 April 2010‎ (EST)

The above comment appears to be vandalism. rowley (talk) 20:43, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

What is with the absence of turtles in much of Syria?

Is it because of the civil war going on their or something else? Sarsath3 (talk) 14:00, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

they are cute

when sea turtles are born they have to get to the water quickly or they might get eaten by a crow — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:5053:9010:40CA:1102:E2C2:25D0 (talk) 17:20, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

English Wikipedia not a foreign language dictionary

The common view, supported by policy, is that English Wikipedia is not a dictionary (WP:NOTDICT), and especially not a dictionary of foreign names for animals or anything else unless these names are widely used in English. The digression in Etymology into how turtles are named in Spanish is from this point of view out of the article's scope; it is neither part of the naming of turtles in English, nor part of the English word's etymology; the Latin name is of course relevant as it is used by English-speaking as by all other zoologists. It should therefore be deleted. If this is hard to grasp, it should be clear that the section must not be allowed to contain a list of turtle names in a hundred different languages as that would contravene both policy and the article's scope. It follows that we do not want to have 10, 5, 3, or even one foreign term or definition here. Chiswick Chap (talk) 10:07, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

Obnoxiously missing the point of the paragraph, which is to show how English contrasts with other languages.oknazevad (talk) 10:30, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

Language. Well, that point was not obvious either to me or to the editor who just made the Spanish contribution; and even if we rephrased the paragraph, the question of "how English contrasts with other languages" is not really relevant to the article as it's straying into dictionary territory. Indeed the Spanish source is a dictionary. I'm sorry about the longstanding feature but it is misplaced here. Chiswick Chap (talk) 12:00, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

As there is clear policy on this point and no policy-based counter-argument, I'll merge the description now. Chiswick Chap (talk) 11:01, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 January 2021

Terrestrial turtles also eat a variety of foods, from earthworms, grubs, snails, beetles and caterpillars to grasses, fruit, berries, mushrooms and flowers. Both aquatic and land turtles have been known to eat carrion (decaying flesh) when it's available.Many wild turtles lay eggs in the spring in response to temperature and light cycle changes; that's why we see so many turtles out on the roads when warmer weather hits. ... Pet turtles, however, often do not follow these seasonal rules as their environments do not change significantly and they can lay eggs year-round.Red Eared Sliders are one of the most popular of all the aquatic turtle species. They tend to be friendlier and more sociable than some of their relatives, they're pretty active, and they're widely available. 52.144.111.84 (talk) 18:07, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. DMacks (talk) 18:11, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

Article Picture

The pictured box turtle is neither a turtle or a tortoise. While closely related to turtles, box turtles live on land. Since this article is about the meaning of the word turtle, a proper water dwelling turtle should be pictured. I will find one and replace the existing one, if no one objects.James.folsom (talk) 16:25, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

No, the article is not all about "the meaning of the word turtle", it's about turtles sensu lato, which includes terrapins and tortoises of all kinds. Hope this is clear. The picture is fine, a priori, and indeed it's desirable given the language issue that the image is NOT of a marine turtle. All the best, Chiswick Chap (talk) 16:35, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

If a box turtle is "neither a turtle or a tortoise", just what the heck do you think it is? --Khajidha (talk) 12:08, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

Calm... I'm sure we all agree it's a member of Testudines, which this article is about. Chiswick Chap (talk) 12:17, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

Source formatting

The source formatting has both sfn and embedded formatted references. I plan on converting all the sources (save major books) to embedded format for GA and FA. Any objections? LittleJerry (talk) 22:27, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

Support, this seems entirely sensible, given that most of the citations were like that already. Chiswick Chap (talk) 17:47, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

How long should we wait for the consensus? I want that sorted out before I continue. LittleJerry (talk) 18:43, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

I think we can go on editing normally. The article had no refs at all except External links for its first 5 years until 2007, when it acquired refs - normal inline bluelinks with embedded citations, and this continued until 12 November 2012 when Fama Clamosa converted the article to harvnb links and a 'References' section; the archives show no discussion of the change. So if you want a figleaf, it's that the article's refs were originally inline, and we're going back to that. Chiswick Chap (talk) 19:14, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

All done (sfn removed). – Jonesey95 (talk) 22:04, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Symposium on Turtle Evolution

Hi everybody (and perhaps especially Faendalimas) - the article on the Symposium on Turtle Evolution is cited only to primary sources and is doing little except advertise the event. We could possibly merge it here, though we certainly wouldn't want to maintain a list of conferences over here; nor, really, given policy on advertising, catalogues, and not being a directory, should we probably be doing it over there either, but since the article currently offers no evidence of Notability, that's a fine point - the article should likely be deleted or merged unless there are reliable secondary sources. Ideas? Chiswick Chap (talk) 07:40, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

I attend this but yes its just a conference held every three years. I see no purpose in a mainspace for this. It could be deleted, at most a mention of one of the availavle turtle conference if desired. Scott Thomson (Faendalimas) ^talk 13:44, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Usually such series of conferences are organised by a scientific society and could form a section in the page on the society (most scientific societies are notable). This one seems unusual in that it isn't organised by a society. —  Jts1882 | talk  15:24, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

I've added it to the External links here and redirected it. If that's not in order then I'll take it to AfD. Chiswick Chap (talk) 15:58, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Sperm storage

I see sperm storage is covered non-trivially in one of the existing sources for this article ("Turtle Mating Systems: Behavior, Sperm Storage, and Genetic Paternity", free PDF available!), but it isn't mentioned in the article text. Worthy of mention? William Avery (talk) 09:07, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

LittleJerry ? Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:14, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

Sure. We'll get to it. I haven't decided whether I want to work on reproduction or have Chap do it or how much of each. LittleJerry (talk) 12:41, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

Shell Morphology

This sentence - "The shoulder girdle was long thought to lie inside the rib cage, a unique feature, but it actually lies in front of the rib cage; the shoulder blade is oriented vertically, as it was primitively in other reptiles.[20]" not sure I entirely agree with this, the rib cage of the turtle starts with rib 1 which is connected to rib 2 as it goes through the first pleural bone. These are both located in front and above the anterior pelvic girdle, which in turtles is only made up of two bones instead of three with the third bone having migrated to the plastron. Cheers Scott Thomson (Faendalimas) ^talk 18:50, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

Faendalimas - Perhaps the time has come for you to adjust the statement briefly? Chiswick Chap (talk) 18:54, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

Faendalimas how come you don't have a citation for "....and is located inside the anterior of the shell to the side of the neck." LittleJerry (talk) 22:05, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

I added a ref for this, [2] Cheers Scott Thomson (Faendalimas) ^talk 22:50, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

Anatomy and Morphology section

Hi, I am editing the anatomy and morphology sections because I found that much of it was copied from the following book (Parker &, Blair (2019-06-06). Origin and Evolution of Vertebrates. Scientific e-Resources. ISBN 978-1-83947-454-5.). I will post a copy of my work with the edits if someone wants to look at them before I publish them. Brownkr (talk) 03:38, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

Brownkr, please don't. I'm already rewritting it. LittleJerry (talk) 17:48, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

LittleJerry, He's a student on an assignment, so maybe we can find him something he can usefully do? Chiswick Chap (talk) 18:00, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

I will review it if you like, I am a turtle morphologist in RL so can check this, go for it. Cheers Scott Thomson (Faendalimas) ^talk 18:03, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

How about Brownkr or Faendalimas write about the internal systems (heart, respiration)? The current respiration section seems well sourced but it would need to be spotchecked. I could finish up my sandbox writing about the skull and neck and post in on the page and Faendalimas could look it over and edit it. LittleJerry (talk) 18:13, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

Let Brownkr write the section I will review it, same for you LittleJerry happy to review osteology, if you need any of my publications feel free to ask. Cheers Scott Thomson (Faendalimas) ^talk 18:23, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

Sorry LittleJerry I am editing for an anatomy class so have made small edits in my sandbox to most of the "Anotomy and Morphology" sections that I have been working on for most the semester. I have not done much with the respiration portion if you would like to edit that. Faendalimas if you would look over my work that would be awesome. Since it is an entire section do you still want me to copy and paste the entire section with my edits as well as the original? Thank you all Brownkr (talk) 03:44, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Brownkr I have set your sandbox on my watchlist let me know when its ready for looking over. I would suggest you look at some material in Biology of the Reptilia also for necks specifically Hoffstetter and Gasc. Cheers Scott Thomson (Faendalimas) ^talk 05:24, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Thanks guys. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:06, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Okay, for this section all we need are sub-sections on senses and the circulatory system. Faendalimas, do you have any papers on the latter? LittleJerry (talk) 20:18, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

I should do LittleJerry, give me a day or so developing a post grad project on Rhinemys tomorrow. I can think of a few. Cheers Scott Thomson (Faendalimas) ^talk 23:35, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

Lede

The lede seems rather short for an article this lengthy. Perhaps fill out more text? FAs such as Crocodilia have four paragraphs summarizing key info about the reptile. On a side note, I would love to review this article at GAN but I would be racing against the clock due to life obligations. Wretchskull (talk) 08:56, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

Yes, we wrote a bit more at Crocodilia. I've extended the lead as requested. Many thanks, Chiswick Chap (talk) 10:14, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

Cladogram

Sun Creator - what is "unusual" about this very ordinary cladogram? It's reliably cited to a recent and very thorough source, and the implied phylogeny appears entirely in line with convention. If you'll say what the problem actually is, rather than repeating "unusual" then we can fix it. Indeed if you're knowledgeable about the area then you may have specific sources in mind? Chiswick Chap (talk) 11:58, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

If it's not unusual than it will be easy to add other sources. Sun Creator^(talk) 12:03, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

This section currently has only one reference:

Thomson, Robert C.; Spinks, Phillip Q.; Shaffer, H. Bradley (February 8, 2021). "A global phylogeny of turtles reveals a burst of climate-associated diversification on continental margins"

which can be found online here. It makes use of the clade Durocryptodira (at time of writing a redlink), although not unknown as it has been referenced before and available (unsourced) in taxobox Template:Taxonomy/Durocryptodira.

I. G. Danilov and J. F. Parham. 2008. A reassessment of some poorly known turtles from the Middle Jurassic of China, with comments on the antiquity of extant turtles. Journal of Vertebrate Paleontology 28(2):306-318

On checking the Thomson, 2021 diagram, Chelydroidea doesn't seem to appear in the articles source (Thomson,2021) and Template:Taxonomy/Chelydroidea doesn't exists, so that's unusual. Sun Creator^(talk) 12:19, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

Ah, someone sneaked in and added that label, presumably thinking it would make the cladogram look nicer. I'll tidy things up now. Chiswick Chap (talk) 12:36, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

That someone was me following a discussion at the project page. I did add the comment about reptile database changing from Kinosternoidea to Chelydroidea for the superfamily so the edit was verifiable. I meant to go back and add citations but forgot. —  Jts1882 | talk  13:10, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

Chelydroidea and Durocryptodira can be found in Crawford et al (2015), which has the same topology at family level and above. —  Jts1882 | talk  12:52, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

Do you mean Crawford (2012), or if not, could you provide the title or link to the 2015 paper. Sun Creator^(talk) 13:03, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

No, he means 2015, I've cited the paper. Chiswick Chap (talk) 13:05, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

You've also mixed the two by doing synthesis aka original research. Sun Creator^(talk) 13:13, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

Grr. I'll suppress them, but frankly the two agree completely barring the lack of supply of the two labels, so it really can't be called OR, that's totally over the top and you know it. Chiswick Chap (talk) 13:18, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

That isn't synthesis by the Wikipedia definition. That is adding "from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources". This clearly isn't the case here. —  Jts1882 | talk  13:20, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

Whatever, but since Crawford et al 2015 shows the whole cladogram structure, it can serve as the one-and-only source. As it happens, Thompson agrees, barring the two labels, so I've rearranged the wording. Frankly this is a storm-in-a-teacup as the phylogeny seems perfectly stable. If there were multiple competing recent phylogenies then we'd of course show more than one. Chiswick Chap (talk) 13:23, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

Do remember when sorting out the cladogram that the paleos in turtle research use PhyloCode and those working on living turtles use Linaean Nomenclature, at higher orders the two are not that compatible. This causes no end of issues, I deal with this constantly as I work on both living and fossil turtles. Cheers Scott Thomson (Faendalimas) ^talk 00:51, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

Chiswick Chap thanks for message I will reply here so all can see it easily. For info the reference for using Chelydroidea is: G. E. Knauss, W. G. Joyce, T. R. Lyson and D. Pearson. 2011. A new kinosternoid from the Late Cretaceous Hell Creek Formation of North Dakota and Montana and the origin of the Dermatemys mawii lineage. Palaeontologische Zeitschrift 85:125-142. The name of course is originall Chelydroidea Baur 1893 (G. Baur. 1893. Notes on the classification of the Cryptodira. American Naturalist 27(319):672). The name Durocryptodira is new and only used in Phylocode and can hence be ignored. You can put it in if you wish I would not make it a redlink as it has no page, is not likely to and has no real description. It also likely as not will not hold up. For the large part I would try to follow Thomson et al 2021 and use Joyce et al to fill in some gaps. This way you are using a Linaean structure which we should follow here and just getting some extra detail from the PhyloCode paper. Joyce et al is not followed by majority of turtle researchers. When I add fossils to Wikispecies, which often eventually end up here if prominent enough, I redo their phylogeny to make it linaean. For the record, the Thomson in Thomson et al 2021 is not me, we just have same name, he is one of Brad Shaffers post docs. Cheers Scott Thomson (Faendalimas) ^talk 01:09, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

Ok, I've removed the Durocryptodira label and cited Knauss 2011 for Chelydroidea. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:02, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

The 16 bronze tortoises of Kingston Lacy

Well, I don't know if we should include these splendid guys in the article, but they should perhaps find a place here in case people do think so. Article in The Guardian. Chiswick Chap (talk) 10:06, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

Comments regarding Feature Art.

Hi everyone and in particular @LittleJerry: involved in the feature article nomination. This is looking great much better than it used to be. A couple of points.

• The mouth cask on a turtle is known as a rhamphotheca, it is made of horn (ceratin) and is as differentiated for diet as mammalian teeth are. In effect the rhamphotheca does the same job as teeth in mammals.

Linked. LittleJerry (talk) 21:48, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

• On the issue with Chelonian. This is an ancient greek word stemmed from the greek word for turtle which is Chelonia. In effect the first word written for turtles was by Aristotle who named the Green Sea Turtle as Chelonia mydas (which is still its scientific name), which literally means Turtle of the Sea. His other named turtle from his works in 350BC was Testudo graeca which means Greek Tortoise (and also still its scientific name), however Testudo comes from the Latin Testus which is the Roman name for the Military Shield Formation seen in Greek and Roman History, to protect themselves from arrows. So Testudo basically means Shield Reptile, which is also the German name for turtles, ie Schildkroten. So the word Chelonia, stems back over 2000 years and has historical significance in turtles. Its really only because we accept modern nomenclature as anything after Linnaeus (1756) that Testudines is the accepted name for turtles. It was used first after Linn. So the reference for Chelonia applying to turtles is Aristotle c350BC "History of Animals".

I don't know how to cite an ancient work. Chiswick Chap? LittleJerry (talk) 13:57, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

No, it's never easy. Probably best way to survive scrutiny is to cite a modern translation (i.e. D'Arcy Thompson's), but that would only prove that Aristotle used a word like Chelonia; it wouldn't say anything about modern usage, which is the point here. Chiswick Chap (talk) 14:02, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

Added that Chelonian is from ancient Greek. LittleJerry (talk) 21:48, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

I agree, I was just trying to give you some history of it. Of course the word Chelone still has relevance in Linn nomenclature, it is a junior synonym at the Order Group level, its available, just not valid. It is used as both a Family and Genus Group level name for sea turtles. Originally (1756) turtles were placed in two groups of equal standing these are not scientific names but descriptors, one was Chelonia mydas all sea turtles, the other was Testudo terestris which basically meant everything not from the sea. Basch was the first to separate this correctly with the name Testudines in 1788 hence we have the Order Group name as Testudines. I think its good to talk about the word Chelonia though, even if its technically Vernacular at this level as it is widely used to describe turtles and the people who work with them. A number of Journals also use the name in their titles. Cheers Scott Thomson (Faendalimas) ^talk 19:37, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

Right, but I can't find a source which discusses the history of turtle taxonomy and use of Testudines vs Chelonia so I'm limited in this regard. LittleJerry (talk) 22:39, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

Here have a read through this, not all their arguments are accepted, Testudines is accepted name. But they go through a lot of the information. Duboit & Bour, 2010 cheers Scott Thomson (Faendalimas) ^talk 04:13, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

Added. LittleJerry (talk) 13:28, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

• Last point you may wish to use this paper for discussing conservation issues as its more focused on the issue than the TTWG work: Conservation Status of Turtles and Tortoises (Order Testudines) Rhodin, 2018.

Added. LittleJerry (talk) 21:48, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

Otherwise I think this all reads well. Sorry for my recent absence I have been busy teaching and at conferences. Cheers Scott Thomson (Faendalimas) ^talk 01:40, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

Closer to squamata or closer to archosauria?

Just as a heads up, there's currently what seems to be like an inconsistency in the article; unless the intention is to present different viewpoints. But that doesn't become clear now and makes for a confusing read. The intro now says that recently turtles have been seen as diapsids that are slightly closer to archosaurs than to Lepidosauria (which includes squamata), while the section 'External phylogeny' says they are seen as "slightly closer to Squamata than to Archosauria". Greetings, RagingR2 (talk) 15:39, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 12:13, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

Minor typo needs to be fixed...

In the third paragraph: "have higher body temperature than surrounding water since their high metabolic rate." The word "since: should probably be changed to "due to". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.18.111.126 (talk • contribs) 20:08, 3 February 2010‎ (EST)

Under bite force section, instead of N units lbf; it should be 432 lbf (1,920 N). Redheadpower (talk) 11:17, 10 November 2021 (UTC)