Talk:Tok Pisin/Archive 1

Archive 1

Broken link

• Just thought i'd point out the link to Jeff Siegel's page is broken and displays a 404 page. I believe this is the correct link, but unsure. http://www.une.edu.au/langnet/definitions/tokpisin.html

Shadowoflinux 20:47, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, that's fixed now. Really, when you see a broken link, you can just go ahead and fix it - no need to consult. Wantok 01:08, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

merge

Aren't "ng" and "oi" also digraphs? (Actually, regarding "ng", that's not a question - it is a digraph. I'm not sure about "oi" (eg. boil, boilim) so I don't want to change it until someone can confirm.)— — Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.31.37.40 (talk • contribs) 14:08, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Pis

I removed the statements that "pis" can mean "piss" or "beach" (in addition to "fish, "peace", etc.) since this is NOT true. "Piss" is "pispis", "beach" is "nambis". —Preceding unsigned comment added by MarcusCole12 (talk • contribs) 03:04, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

MarcusCole12 (talk)

Tok Pisin Wikipedia and Wiktionary

For those with an interest in Tok Pisin who are not watching WikiProject Melanesia, there's a move afoot to revitalise the Tok Pisin Wiktionary and the Tok Pisin Wikipedia. Please go to the discussion page, and specific subpages for Wiktionary and Wikipedia, if you are interested. Wantok (toktok) 10:36, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I have been doing some work over there but it is going slow at the moment. I am currently expanding the New York City (Niu Yok Siti) and the Washington D.C. page (Wosinten D.K.). If anyone else is interested, please help expand the Tok Pisin Wikipedia. Αδελφος (talk) 15:20, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Vocabulary list

I'd like to remove the vocabulary list for Tok Pisin. It doesn't belong here. I'll leave the couple of sentences there, though, and add one or two examples for the languages of borrowing, though. Vocabulary should go into Wiktionary. If no one complains, I'll do it tomorrow or someday. — N-true (talk) 22:29, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I agree that the vocabulary enntries should go into the Tok Pisin Wiktionary, but there's a good reason why they won't, or can't, be put there.  Up until July 2007, when I was removed as a Tok Pisin administrator for the both the Tok Pisin Wikipedia and the Tok Pisin Wiktionary, I had been working on producing a significant revision/upgrade to the existing (but exceptionally minimal) Tok Pisin Wiktionary (tpi.wiktionary.org). My philosophy back then was (and still is) that the two Tok Pision Wikis should be bilingual, so that contributions to them could be made by anyone, regardless of the level of their ability to read/write/speak Tok Pisin. My removal as administrator was contentious, an intense conflict between my bilingual philosophy and another user's TPI-only philosophy, a user who most vehemently insisted that the two Wikis should be entirely in Tok Pisin -- and wanted me removed and have himself appointed as the Tok Pisin administrator. The new administrator then began translating into Tok Pisin all of the English-language editing functions, tabs, and contents in both Wikis.  In the process, the new administrator also deleted all the extensive work I had done to revise, edit and upgrade both the TPI Wikipedia and the TPI Wiktionary, effectively setting both Wikis back to the condition in which I originally found them.  As for the TPI Wiktionary, you can actually see now at tpi.wiktionary.org what that Wiki looked like before I began working to bring the Wiki up to the appearance and standards of other foreign language Wiktionaries.   Most hurtful to both Wikis was that that after completing his translation into Tok Pisin of the editing functions in the two Wikis (a process that took him about three months), the new administrator just dropped everything and walked away from the project.  As I predicted back then, nothing has been done or contributioins made to either Wiki since that time.  I think you'll be able to see what I mean when I say that unless you either speak, read, or write Tok Pisin you won't be able to add to or edit any entries to the TPI Wiktionary. K. Kellogg-Smith (talk) 15:17, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

well, I like the vocabulary list, it's interesting. Might as well keep it there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.198.113.130 (talk) 17:35, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

I think the Tok Pisin wiktionary should be mostly Tok Pisin because it is for people who speak Tok Pisin. I think Papua New Guineans would be glad to see a website in their language. Αδελφος (talk) 15:24, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

What about a new page specifically about Tok Pisin vocabulary and etymology? Bearinasidecar (talk) 17:09, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Grammar of "i"

Can we have some expansion or citation for the comment; "This may or may not be written separate from the verb, occasionally written as a prefix. It was once thought to be an abbreviation for "he" or "is", but now is thought to be a grammatical construction instead."?

Although, it seems quite clear that "i" does have a grammatical function when used with impersonal constructions and in specifying agents in complex sentences, is it not also the case that the word itself is derived from "he"?

The above comment seems to suggest that the facts are mutually exclusive. Bearinasidecar (talk) 17:20, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Verbs in Austronesian languages in general tend to include include particles like this. You are correct that "i" derived from "he": just as "yu", "mi" and "ol" (they) are derived from "you", "me", and "all", this is simply obvious common sense. Grammatically however they are (generally) not pronouns in the English sense, but a part of the verb - as in "Barata bilong mi bai i kam kwiktaim" = "My brother will be coming soon". The verb is "bai i kam" = "will come", with a third person singular implication. The facts are certainly NOT mutually exclusive, of course.--Soundofmusicals (talk) 23:45, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

It seems we agree :) I've edited the sentence in question so that it doesn't imply mutually exclusive facts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bearinasidecar (talk • contribs) 11:29, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Number of Native Speakers

The English version of the site states that there are 1 million native speakers, whereas the Tok Pisin site says 120 000. Does anyone have any firmer figures? I think some consistency would be helpful.Bearinasidecar (talk) 17:11, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

It is often very difficult to determine if an individual growing up in PNG is a "native" pidgin speaker or not. Many children in PNG learn to speak in several languages at once - especially if are born into a linguistically mixed extended family (my own eldest daughter was in this situation for a year or two!). There is a difference between learning some pidgin words and grammatical constructions when very young, and speaking the language properly, as one's "main" language, by the time one is six or seven. Can one be a "native" speaker of more than one language? I suspect some people are, especially in PNG! --Soundofmusicals (talk) 00:04, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

I've found one reference claiming 122,000 native speakers (50,000 monolinguals) and 4 million L2 speakers. See http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=tpi Any thoughts? Should these figures be included? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bearinasidecar (talk • contribs) 11:23, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

The figures themselves seem pretty meaningless unless you know exactly where the original figures were derived, and what they mean by "native speaker". To my knowledge attempts to determine the numbers of speakers of different PNG languages by scientific statistical surveying techniques go back at least to 1966-67 - but I'd want to know if there was something up-to-date behind these (very much "rounded") figures, or if they were (say) projections based on "colonial-era" statistics. The website has a terrific bibliography - how much of this is accessible through libraries etc.?? --Soundofmusicals (talk) 18:03, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Derivation of "pisin"

According to the video series "The Story of Human Language" created by John McWhorter for The Teaching Company, "pisin" is derived from "business." Does anyone have a citation to the contrary? If not, the page should be amended. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.164.94.128 (talk) 23:59, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

I noticed this too! There are countless citations saying that the word "pisin" is derived from "pidgin" but whether or not this is just a common assumption or whether the citations in turn refer to a single (correct or incorrect) previous source is anyone's guess. I'll try to find out more...

Does anyone actually know? I've noticed that the Tok Pisin Language page states both as possible origins.Bearinasidecar (talk) 17:08, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

The English word "pidgin" refers to a KIND of language. In common use it means any kind of "simplified" English (or, more rarely, other language) - typically with a drastically reduced vocabulary, and a (simple and rudimentary) grammar based on or strongly influenced by a language other than English. (This picture has been complicated by linguists - forget about them for the moment!) The original "Pidgin English" was a "trade language" mixture of English and Chinese, used in 18th - 19th century China between European and Chinese merchants. The Portuguese had been in the far east much longer, and it seems there was already a "Pidgin Portuguese", which influenced the original Chinese/English pidgin as well as all later Pidgin English languages.

NOW the derivation of this English word (pidgin) is pretty universally thought to be derived from the (Chinese) Pidgin English word for "business" or "trade". This makes a good deal of sense, and there seems to be no good reason to doubt it. The use of the (English) word "pidgin" (pisin) in the name of the PNG lingua franca, is evidently derived from the name of the earlier (and quite different) Chinese pidgin variety.

So once more - nothing mutually exclusive here! --Soundofmusicals (talk) 19:12, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Broken English

Just edited the link to "savvy" out, i dont think tok pisin has anything to do with a californian wrestler MikeTango 22:00, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

A Tok-Pisin Wikipedia just opened. Please contribute!

--Milaiklainim 5 April 2004

why does Broken english ridirect here?

• Good question. --Whimemsz 01:00, May 3, 2005 (UTC)

I believe "Broken English" and just plain "Broken" are common names for various English-based pidgins and creoles. Torres Strait Creole also goes by these names. They are surely considered pejorative these days. — Hippietrail 03:35, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

AFAIK, "broken English" refers to the poorly-spoken English by non-native speakers... not any specific dialects/pidgins/creoles, etc. - SigmaEpsilon → ΣΕ 15:54, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, pidgins and creoles are not broken English. I've changed the redirect, so Broken english now goes to Broken English (the Marianne Faithfull album). There's a (rather dubious) disamb notice on that page. -- Wantok 05:55, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Creoles are not “broken English,” but AFAIK several non-standard varieties are referred to by native speakers as “broken,” including perhaps Torres Strait Creole and, for example, Nigerian Pidgin English. —Wiki Wikardo 20:02, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Why is this article not at Tok Pisin language, instead of that location redirecting here? --Whimemsz 20:22, Jun 9, 2005 (UTC)

• Probably because Tok Pisin is only a language, and nothing else, whereas English for example can refer to either the English language or to people from England; on the other hand, there are no people called "Tok Pisin," it refers only to the language. -- DocSigma 20:49, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Nb. "bikpela" does not primarily mean God. It primarily means "big." To put "God" as the primary meaning is to miss an important TP idiom (God is big, get it?). Besides which, it is more common to say "Papa God" where one would invoke The Big Judeo-Christian Diety in the Sky, anyways. 68.7.98.29 03:05, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

What is the basis for the statement that German creole (whatever that is) was used in German New Guinea? German New Guinea only lasted from 1884 to 1914 -- hardly long enough for creolisation. The influence of German on New Guinea Pidgin is decidedly minor compared to that of English -- the frequently proposed etymology of haus as coming from the German haus is just plain daft: obviously haus is simply house in the Pidgin orthography. Fr. Frank Mihalic's Jacaranda Dictionary and Grammar of Melanesian Pidgin (Milton, Qld: Jacaranda, 1971) remains the single most authoritative source and he simply states it to be "E."Masalai 18:03, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Some of the info here is inaccurate, it seems. According to Wurm and Mulhausler's "Handbook of Tok Pisin", Tok Pisin has /N/ phonemically. Amungst other things. Bryan 82.44.212.6 21:09, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

A reading of the article on Unserdeutsch indicates that the creole developed over more than the German era (the German influence in the Catholic orphanage referred to continued after the German era). But thirty years of first contact is plenty of time to develop a pidgin - which is all the German era helped to do; the creolization of Tok Pisin is a more recent development. Don't underestimate the German influence. The use of haus pre-dates major english influence, and it is highly likely that it did at least in part have German impetus in its use. The word for hospital haus sik translates a German structure which is not used in English - "krankenhaus". Another example is manki (see my comments below) - which is NOT derived from English - its use was common in the former German Territories, and NO WHERE ELSE in the world where the English had influence, and where piccaninny or its equivalent prevailed. The influence has faded, but is not entirely gone. Regards, Colin Richardson

• I've got a question to the following word (in Vocabulary):

maski - it doesn't matter, don't worry about it

Does it come from German "macht nichts" (or like "machnix" in some dialects) which has the same meaning?

Vadimka 00:12, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

According to Mihalic, yes. Masalai 14:11, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Tenses of Tok Pisin

This sxn starts out about tense/ aspect marking, but discusses a number of generic grammatical things (prepositions, plurals,...) Either change sxn title, or move the non-tense related stuff elsewhere. Mcswell (talk) 17:25, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

Tok Pisin

Mi save gut long Tok Pisin tasol mi gat wanpela kwesten. In English we don't refer to le francais but French. So is it proper to refer to it as Tok Pisin rather than Pidgin English? Masalai (talk) 19:51, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

If there were dozens of unrelated languages all called "French" and only one called "francais" we might well use "francais" to make what we were referring to clear. In this case there are in fact several languages called "Pidgin English" (all named after the original "Pidgin", used as a trade language between Western traders and their Chinese agents in the 18th/19th centuries). In fact the very bad English of someone who is in the early stages of learning English as a second language is often refered to as "Pidgin English". (Cognate terms might be "Franglais", "Chinglish", "Double Dutch", or "Babu English"). "Tok Pisin" on the other hand refers specifically to the language under discussion, and so is the appropritae title for this encyclopedia article. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 03:50, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Bai

Is it true that the future marker "bai" comes from English "by and by"? I thought it came from Portuguese "vai" ("goes"). Portuguese has influenced a lot of pidgins and creoles around the world, even pidgins/creoles which are not Portuguese-based. --Antonielly (talk) 10:22, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, Tok Pisin "bai" is an abbreviated alternative of the Tok Pisin word "baimbai" which derives from the old fashioned English expression "by and by." ~~CMC~~

In Tok Pisin, bai means "will". For example: "Em bai wokim" means "he will work". Αδελφος (talk) 15:15, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

No, it would mean "He will make it" - verbs with "im" are transitive. "Wok", especially in the transitive sense generally corresponds to English "make" rather than "work". English "will", in this construction, is a future tense marker, corresponding pretty precisely to Pidgin "bai" (which, as someone said) is straight from "bye and bye", and has no Portugese connotation whatsoever. ---Soundofmusicals (talk) 23:29, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

In Brazilian Portuguese, he will work would be translated as ele vai trabalhar... Albeit I think Europeans would prefer ele trabalhará. 177.98.96.111 (talk) 13:40, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Namba wan Jesus man????

Not impossible that a devout Catholic might refer to the Pope that way I suppose - but hardly standard Pidgin usage! Anyway I have cut it from the "vocabulary" list. In any case "Jesus man" seems unlikely - more idiomatic would be "man bilong Jesus". I fear this one is in the category as such "monsters" (obviously composed by Europeans) as "Mikismasta bilong Jesus" for helicopter, or "bigpela bokis sapos yu paitim long maus i kraiaut" for "piano". These (and others) were both quoted to me as "typical" of pidgin (by people who I suspect of knowing much better) before I went to New Guinea - in practice of course unfamiliar ideas are much more likely to result in the coining of a new loan word than a long-winded circumlocution. ---Soundofmusicals (talk) 23:43, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

I completely agree. The phrase "magimix bilong Yesus" (Magimix belonging to Jesus) Is entirely apocryphal. Why would someone use a rare (dare I say entirely unfamiliar given the supposed time this phrase supposedly originated) piece of complicated machinery to badly describe another piece of machinery that many folks in PNG where far more likely to have seen. It sounds like a joke that someone took seriously. Since when is a casual mention in a royal fluff piece by The Gaurdian a respectable resource? Mitch 19:23, 21 May 2013 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.255.8.253 (talk • contribs) 19:23, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Olaman -- bilong wanem?

All Papua New Guinean Anglophones refer to New Guinea Pidgin as such when speaking English. My son insists (I assure you I am quoting), "All Australians are illiterate, racist assholes." They are though, notoriously unilingual and I have to conclude that it was some Australian(s) who insisted on referring to it as Tok Pisin when not speaking it. Surely this can and should be fixed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.228.80.1 (talk) 21:45, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Melanesian Pidgin

Should Melanesian Pidgin English really redirect here? I’ve seen that term used to refer not to Tok Pisin specifically, but to a larger group which includes Bislama and Pijin. It’s also surmised that Tok Pisin is “perhaps more commonly” called New Guinea Pidgin in English. I don’t speak Tok Pisin and am not from that area of the world, but have only ever heard it called Tok Pisin. —Wiki Wikardo 20:02, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

I was just wondering the same thing, actually. But somebody would have to write the article on the group. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 20:41, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Edward Wolfers, writing for the Pidginization and Creolization of Languages conference, states that Tok Pisin is “officially” known as Neo-Melanesian; however, there is no indication what official declared it such (the Australian government? some linguistics or missionary organization?). However, looking through other papers in that volume, Neo-Melanesian is treated as synonymous with Melanesian Pidgin, and appears to refer encompass Pijin and Bislama as well, even when referring to the PNG varieties specifically. —Wiki Wikardo 00:39, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Tok boi

Would be nice to get a mention of this term somewhere in the article. —Wiki Wikardo 00:39, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Tok ples

I'm a dabbler here, via an interest in some PNG subjects. My uninformed guess is that tok ples refers to the local language of any of the many PNG places that have their own language (on the basis that ples means "place"). If I'm right, IMHO it would be good to somehow include a few words about tok ples="talk place" up in the introduction where tok ples is mentioned. Linking to vernacular doesn't seem to be quite enough. Lou Sander (talk) 16:13, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

"Ples" (often pronounced "peles") is derived from the English word "place", but the more usual meaning is "village" - so "tok ples" typically means "language spoken in the (home) village", or "native language". "Ples bilong mi" (literally, my native village) is also used in a wider sense to mean "my country", in the sense of the district or province I come from. Many PNG villages do in fact have their own dialects, or even their own mutually incomprehensible languages!! A pair of French missionary brothers talking together (in French) might be described as "ol i toktok long tok ples bilong ol" = "talking in their native language". The person who said that to me was quite sophisticated, and knew very well they were talking a European language, and that it wasn't English. So yes, "vernacular" is a pretty fair translation. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 22:22, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! I didn't mean to say that "vernacular" didn't fit; just that I needed a little more explanation. BTW, since most of us have never heard a word of Tok Pisin, it would be REALLY good if we had some audio of, for example, somebody speaking the vocabulary words in the article. Lou Sander (talk) 23:15, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Merge Tok Pisin alphabet

There's a tag on the main article, suggesting that Tok Pisin alphabet be merged into Tok Pisin, but nobody seems to have started a discussion. I have near-zero knowledge of either subject, but that doesn't mean I can't help.

Merge. The alphabet article is tiny, unlikely to grow, would fit in with the many other details in the Tok Pisin article. Lou Sander (talk) 15:09, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Merge. I agree 100% that it belongs in this article rather than as a separate one. A few things that could also be added:

• Chart format with IPA
• History of alphabet?

The Haz _talk 03:15, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

vulgar contexts

'bagarap(im) – broken, to break down (from "bugger up") – also used in Papua New Guinea English in contexts that would be considered vulgar in other countries.'

Does that mean that the contexts would be considered vulgar in other countries but are not in PNG? Or does it mean that "bagarap" is used in PNG English in contexts where "bugger up" would be considered too vulgar in other countries? I think it's the second, but that's not what the sentence says. —JerryFriedman (Talk) 16:28, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Hi Jerry, I agree. I just tried another phrasing. — Womtelo (talk) 17:18, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Verb tenses

I don't know how trustworthy the sources you have regarding the origin of the verb tenses are, so I thought I'd point this out. I'm a native (European) Portuguese speaker, and Tok Pisin was influenced by Portuguese among all those others. The word "bai" to make the future tense in verbs, seems very similar to Portuguese "vai" (literally "goes"), which we use in the exact same way, and is actually pronounced "bai" in most of northern Portugal. Consider that origin instead of English "by and by". On a lesser note, "stap" to indicate the gerund. Instead of English "stop", it may come from Portuguese "estar". "Eating" in Portuguese would be "estar a comer" or "estar comendo". --Midasminus (talk) 15:01, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Fascinating ideas here. Some Tok Pisin words ARE from European languages other than English - mostly via Mediterranean lingua franca. "Bai" is in a grey area. Other people have pointed out a possible relationship with "vai" - but then "bai" is also heard as "baimbai", which can only be "bye and bye". Is even the standard English related to Portuguese (or another Romance language?) - personally I think we're getting a little speculative here, however fascinating speculation might be we do have to be careful about allowing it too much credence in an encyclopedia. "Stap" is not really a gerund marker, although among other things it can indicate present (especially present continuous) tense. The equivalent Hiri Motu word is "noho", which has a very similar range of meanings/uses. Both words have a primary meaning of "be" or "exist" - and a secondary meanings of "stay", "abide" or even "be situated" - as in "I-gat wanpela liklik ples i stap" = "there is (exists) a certain little village", but "I-gat wanpela liklik ples i stap clostu long nambis" = "there is a certain little village by the beach". It it also used in a common expression of the idea of possession "longpela lek bilong mi i stap" = "I have long legs" (or simply "I am tall"). English has no real equivalent word to "stap" or "noho", just as Tok Pisin has no direct equivalent of European language's verbs "to be" or "to have". Nor has any other Austronesian language that I am familiar with, including some that are much more grammatically sophisticated than Tok Pisin! --Soundofmusicals (talk) 16:34, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Example of Tok Pisin

The choice of "The Lord's Prayer in Tok Pisin" violate the "Neutral point of view" rule. They are many texts in tok pisin why choose a prayer? And a prayer from a foreign belief! Please change the example with a neutral text.

Sylvain Jousse, France. Sylvain24 (talk) 17:20, 11 August 2014 (UTC) 11/08/2014.

I believe it is considered a good idea to provide a translation of the Lord's Prayer because it exists in so many other languages, including ancient ones. And within one language's corpus, you can find many variations of the Lord's Prayer, which can be useful if you are tracking differences across region and time.

So, instead of removing it, someone should add something else if this "issue" is to be resolved.

Espreon (talk) 19:00, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

@Sylvain24 - The spirit, if not the letter, of Wiki's rules about "no original research" means that anything we included here would have to come from a "published source" (and a good one, linguistically, too, of course, preferably from a literary rather than a journalistic source, among other reasons because of the very poor standards of tok pisin journalism). We can't just make something up, or translate another well-known literary passage ourselves. The snag is that most available "literature" in tok pisin is in fact from the Christian Bible, almost the only major literary work that has been translated whole. This has long-standing historical causes (missionaries and all that). Sorry if this offends your sensibilities - but if you want to object it is surely up to you to find an alternative or supplement. While you and I are not Christians (at least I'm not, and I suspect you're not) most "PNGans" are, and certainly don't look on their Christianity as a "foreign" belief. Assuming they do is not just non-NPOV but very foolish. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 23:35, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

These answers made me very sad. Espreon: ″it exists in so many other languages″ So what? We could use ′Le petit prince′. It has been translated many times too. ;-)

Yeah, except you wouldn't get as much variation and coverage with that. By switching to that, you'd automatically be excluding lots of ancient languages, all of which will not have adequate, "authentically produced" translations of a story written last century, from the process.

Espreon (talk) 12:57, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

someone should add something. Good idea.

Glad we agree.

Espreon (talk) 12:57, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

@Soundofmusicals: You are right. I'm not a believer of any kind, in any way. You are right too when you say it is not easy to find good sources but don't tell me that there are no poets, no singers and no writers in PNG... ″PNGans certainly don't look on their Christianity as a "foreign" belief.″ Probably right for young people but when you ask old people about their customs they always start by 'before the missionnaries we used to...' or 'after the missionnaries we had to...'.

My conclussion is: If something is usual it doesn't mean we HAVE to do the same thing. Sylvain24. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sylvain24 (talk • contribs) 08:47, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Yes, we don't have to do it, but its inclusion is a good idea nonetheless.

Though, if you do manage to find a translation of some other widely-translated text in Tok Pisisn and added it to this article, I would be indeed most pleased.

Espreon (talk) 12:57, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

This idea seems to be a bit of a muddle. People say a lot about "Tok Pisin is a real language, not a pidgin" - and in some senses this is true, and it is undeniably widely used as a means of spoken communication. On the other hand it is not really a "literary language". Children in PNG schools are not taught how to read and write it, and PNG "writers and poets" don't (as a general rule) use it. Even singers often prefer English, or one of PNG's many local vernaculas (tok ples). "Standard" tok pisin spelling (in practice, the spelling of the PNG translation of the Bible, the spelling used in tok pisin journalism, official notices etc.) is not terribly consistent, and one suspects many younger speakers of the language, even if they are literate or semi-literate in English, would read it with difficulty, and be quite unable to spell their own writings in Pidgin in anything like the standard way. (Blogs and facebook posts etc. in tok pisin are a good illustration!) The above remarks are "uncited" generalisations of my own - you couldn't really add them to the article unless a "reliable source" has published remarks of similar import, and I am sure there are exceptions, but they remain generally quite true. What the future holds is another matter altogether, but we have to describe things as they are.

Why do we need to have an "example" of Tok Pisin at all? A quick glance at some other language articles in Wikipedia shows that this is not a common feature. I think it is just that people who have not heard of the language before are interested in comparing a short, familiar passage in Tok Pisin, with the same passage in English. This also illustrates the fact that Tok Pisin is NOT just English with phonetic spellings and a lot of "ims" and "pellas" on the end of words. Including the Lord's prayer in (say) Hiri Motu would be fairly pointless, as apart from the occasional "ecclesiastical" loan word it would look nothing at all like English, and would tell an English speaker (remember this IS the English Wikipedia) nothing about how the language is constructed.

On the whole I think we are agonising over this one unecessarily. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 00:16, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

in development

The Tok Pisin language is a result of Pacific Islanders intermixing [....] The labourers began to develop a pidgin, drawing vocabulary [....]

I changed began to develop to developed, because began suggests that it was not yet in a usable state when they stopped! Soundofmusicals reverted, saying, "It has continued to develop since, so yes, they DID just ‘begin’." We're reading different nuances into the verb develop. Others, please comment. —Tamfang (talk) 04:33, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

A newborn baby, at the outset of its development, is a viable human being. That doesn't mean it's not going to have to do a lot of developing on it's way to becoming an adult. Tok Pisin (even more than other, more established languages like Arabic or Chinese) is still changing and developing - the language of young PNG people on the internet is very different from the language I learned in the 1960s. "Began to develop" being replaced by "developed" radically changes the meaning - implying very strongly indeed that the language ceased to develop sometime in the very early 1900s, and that indentured labourers were (and presumably still are) the only speakers - which is the plainest nonsense. Of course the very earliest form of a language can already be used as a means of communication, but unless it has been artificially created (like, say, Esperanto) there are often things it can't do (very well) just yet. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 10:42, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

The analogy of a baby suggests a century-long project whose founders never hoped to see any benefit from it in their own lifetime! — I'd say the perfective weakly suggests that development halted; such a reading can be averted by some explicit statement. It does not imply at all that no one else used the pidgin. — Note also that the sentence does not say "The labourers developed Tok Pisin", it says they "developed a pidgin," which subsequently, as you rightly observe, continued to develop into something else, the creole now existing. — Ask me sometime about changes in Esperanto since Zamenhof ;) —Tamfang (talk) 20:39, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

Vocabulary list revisited

Another attempt has been made on the little list of Tok Pisin words in this article. While we wouldn't put such a list in an article about French, Indonesian or Mongolian - the very fact that the lexis of Tok Pisin is (mostly) "derived from English" makes such a list of particular interest in this context. We really need a discussion on this page before we lose it, anyway. -Soundofmusicals (talk) 09:23, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

I think we should delete the list for the following reasons:

• It is entirely unsourced
• Unsourced lists tend to grow and grow and grow, and become more unreliable with each new entry
• There are a few websites in the Links section that offer many Tok Pisin words for those who are really interested
• Lastly, we already have the Lord's Prayer here, which in my humble opinion is fully sufficient.

Yupanqui (talk) 11:55, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

My interest in the language derives from my interest in the places where it is spoken. I'm definitely not a student of languages or of this one. I rather like the inclusion of the vocabulary list, and I don't think it should be removed. The Lord's Prayer is a nice example of the language, but it's different from the glossary with definitions and word origins. The vocabulary list could possibly be shortened, however, leaving us with some good examples of the language and its words. I have no suggestions on how much to shorten it, though. BTW, after writing the above, I read through the vocabulary list. It was enlightening and not as long as I first thought. I'd be in favor of leaving it as it is. Lou Sander (talk) 14:26, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

Name of the language in English

The 1971 book of many on New Guinea Pidgin

Anglophone Papua New Guineans invariably refer to the language in English as New Guinea Pidgin or just plain Pidgin. Word the Australians insist on referring to it in English as Tok Pisin causes hilarity: "Obviously they don't speak any languages other than English and perhaps a bit of Pidgin! Do they refer to French as le français, German as Deutsch, Italian as italiano? Don't they know how ignorant that reveals them to be?" Masalai (talk) 08:51, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

We've been down this road before, haven't we? Calling it "Pidgin" runs up against the fact that it isn't a "pidgin" (at least the way some linguists define "pidgins") but a "real" language (whatever that may mean). Mihatlic's usage ("Melanesian Pidgin") is dated (1971 was a long time ago, or "taim bipo" - even if it sometimes FEELS like yesterday) and ambiguous, as there are several distinct pidgins used in various parts of Melanesia. Even "New Guinea Pidgin" is ambiguous, unless we take it as a proper noun rather than a descriptive term. In an encyclopedia - better to sound a little stilted and quaint than to raise doubts about exactly what we are talking about. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 23:59, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, I agree. Properly, Tok Pisin is a creole, not a pidgin. There are also other pidgins and creoles spoken in Papua New Guinea derived from various native languages, which is hardly surprising given the huge linguistic diversity in the country. As a name, "New Guinea Pidgin" is neither accurate nor specific enough. "Tok Pisin" is the name it is known by within the language and also in other languages in the current age, at least outside of PNG.91.44.76.148 (talk) 23:33, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

Pronunciation of "ng".

The section on phonology mentions the phoneme /ŋ/ but does not mention how the written sequence "ng" is pronounced. Given the rule about nasal plus plosive sequences at the ends of words losing the plosive (eg. 'hand' > 'han'), I am therefore certain that binatang ("insect") is pronounced /binataŋ/ (with no idea where the stress goes) and NOT */binataŋg/. But what about between vowels? Does intervocalic "ng" always represent /ŋ/ or /ŋg/ or sometimes one, sometimes the other? For example, how are the words krungutim ("to crush something") and pinga ("finger") pronounced? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.44.76.148 (talk) 23:42, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

Especially for speakers of tokpisin as a second language - the pronunciation of "ng" (and a lot of other phonemes for that matter) usually reflects the phonemic structure of the first language spoken by the person concerned. While /ŋ/ (or even /ŋg/) is a fairly common phoneme in Austronesian languages (and some Papuan languages) many PNG people will hear the /ŋg/ of "pinga" as "g", (or even "k") - while the /ŋ/ of binataŋg will be "heard" as "n". (Stress on first syllable, but much less marked than in English). In addition, almost all Austronesian languages avoid "consonant clusters" and lack nasalised consonants (it is difficult to generalise about non-Austronesian, or "Papuan" PNG languages) - thus an English word like "Lamp" will be realised in ANY PNG language as something like "lamepa" (with an unstressed "e" between the consonants) or simply "lama" or "lam" - with the second consonant of the cluster "mp" simply lost. There is a slight tendency for Tokpisin speakers who are fluent (especially more or less literate) in "tokinlis" (English) to imitate (or be influenced by) regular English pronunciation of some words, but true literacy in Tokpisin itself, especially in terms of familiarity with the "standard" spelling of (say) the Tokpisin Bible is practically unknown - as people are simply not taught to read and write in Tokpisin at school. Hence spelling and pronounciation tend to drift apart rather than converge. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 00:29, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

Phonology and orthography

The Phonology section says that Tok Pisin has 17 "core" consonants. However, the table of consonants only has 16 entries. Looking back at the Alphabet section, I can see that the orthography includes both ⟨f⟩ and ⟨j⟩, the likely phonemic counterparts of which (/f/ and /dʒ/) are not in the table. (It does include /ŋ/, for the digraph ⟨ng⟩.) Are these really in the Tok Pisin alphabet? If so, what are they used for?

Further observations: A skim through the examples shows up just one ⟨f⟩, in telefon, and no ⟨j⟩. Other borrowings have replaced English ⟨f⟩ entirely. I looked through the external links for resources that seemed likely to have their own phonological or orthographic information, but I only found a "Sounds" section in one of them ("Tok Pisin background, vocabulary, sounds, and grammar, by Jeff Siegel"), and it doesn't list them.

In fact, I think this article needs some explanation of how the orthography works, rather than just saying "this is its alphabet". Aside from the above issue, the Phonology section also says that Tok Pisin has five "core" vowels, but the Alphabet section list three vowel digraphs without explaining what they're for. Anyone have the necessary knowledge and want to give it a go? -- Perey (talk) 17:28, 14 January 2017 (UTC)

Fact is that phonology varies widely between individual speakers: depending on what degree of command they have of English(!) and what other PNG languages they speak - either from birth, or learned as second languages. There is no "correct" phonology based on academic standards - for starters it's really not that kind of language, and for seconds no one "goes to school" in it anyway. After the "missionaries" made great efforts to translate the Bible into Tokpisin (and this remains the only substantial work of literature in it (at least that I know of!) the (colonial) authorities set the policy that all education would be in English. This means that very few speakers can read the Bible in Tokpisin - even if they have been to school for years and have acquired a reasonable command of spoken and written English! Effectively, they can be literate in English, but not in any other language. We all know how crazy English spelling is, and what a poor guide to pronunciation it is, so learning to read and write in English is generally a very poor introduction to spelling any other language!

To get back to your question about phonology - "p" and "f" do not usually constitute two distinct phonemes in Austronesian languages - some of them (including closely related and geographically contiguous PNG languages) will sound the p/f phoneme more like a "p", while others pronounce it more like an "f". A fridge will often be pronounced something like "piris", or perhaps as "firis" - depending (often) on how the phoneme is usually realised in the speaker's first language. On the other hand someone with a fair command of English may well pronounce a word like "fridge" (or, say, "telephone") more or less in the standard way, reflecting how the degree to which his English education has taught him to distinguish between "p" and "f" in English. A similar difficultly arises from the lack of phonemic distinction between other consonant pairs, including r/l, g/k (and even g/ng!).

As for the so-called "Tokpisin alphabet" - the missionaries who translated the Bible into Tokpisin very sensibly ignored English spelling as a model - and spelled the words as they they heard them, using the rules:

• 1. Consonants like English, vowels like Italian.
• 2. Write every letter that is pronounced, however lightly - but do not introduce any letters that are not pronounced.

As for vowel digraphs - they are pronounced like a combination of the ("Italian") vowel values run together as a dipthong. Thus "au" (or "ao") come out as the "ow" in the English word "cow"; while "ei" comes out like the "ay" in "play".

This produces an orthography that is (compared to English) fairly consistent and easy to follow - if only PNG children were taught it at school (which as I said, they are not). --Soundofmusicals (talk) 12:45, 16 January 2017 (UTC)

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pronunciation of "Tok Pisin"

In the first paragraph: /tɒk ˈpɪsɪn/. In the infobox: [ˌtok piˈsin]. Concise Oxford Companion says Pronounced ‘tock pizzin’. Which is it? --188.101.94.74 (talk) 02:53, 24 September 2018 (UTC)

The COC information is 20 years old. Oxford Dictionaries state /tɒk ˈpɪsɪn/ as well. I've updated the infobox to match the lede, and added the OD as another reference. Bazza (talk) 10:05, 24 September 2018 (UTC)