Talk:Timurid invasion of Simsim

Fake News

Why do you not talk About Sismir state destruction by Tamerlan in 1395 After the battle of Terek River 37.174.37.236 (talk) 21:35, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

Hello. The battle of Terek was a war between golden horde with some help Simsir and the Timurid empire. Due to Simsir helping the Golden horde, Timur invaded and destroyed eastern Simsir (Destruction of Nokhch-Mokhk, Cheberla, Nokhchiy-Are, Terka-Yist and other regions. Annexation of Aukh and the Gazikumukh Shamkhalate by the Timurid Empire). This was mentioned twice once in the infobox and once in the aftermath section. However Timur wasn't able to conquer and subjugate the highlands, and after the death of Timur, the timurid empire was weakend which followed by Surakat's counter campaign, during this campaign the timurids were fully pushed put of simsir making it a simsir victory. The state existed until surkats death (1430s) and collapsed after.

Iask1 (talk) 16:40, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

Problème de cohérence

Dans le Zafarnama, il est dit que Tamerlan a chassé ces évadés vers le sud dans les montagnes, et plus tard les a maîtrisés et réduits en esclavage. Timur a placé Makhama, le fils de Gayur Khan comme vassal et l'a converti à l'islam. Même le livre l'histoire des Tchétchéne de l'historien Jaimoukha Amjad dit que du temps de Timur les Durdzuk on clairement était conquis. Donc je pense qu'il faudrait dire que l'invasion des Durdzuk par timur et une victoire Timurid, mais que après le règne de Timur les Durdzuk on se sont révolté avec succès.

Invasion des Durdzuk par Timur= Victoire Timurid

Révolte des Durdzuk (1430)= Victoire Durdzuk 37.174.61.199 (talk) 23:56, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

You have a point, however, we have already pointed this out

"Destruction of the regions Nokhch-Mokhk, Nokhchiy-Are, Terka-Yist and more". You can also check the "Aftermath" Section, in which it is also pointed out. In Zafarnama it's simply written that Timur ravaged the region, destroyed temples, and killed the mountaineers, all of which is pointed out in the page. You also admitted the Simsir victory in the last part of your message, saying that the Durdzuks broke free from Timurid rule. So in the end, it's still a Durdzuk victory no? Blasusususu (talk) 15:33, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

exactement mais n'a jamais pris les montagne seulement le basse terre et apres la mort de timurad il y a eu la reconquête de basse terre ainsi que le dagestan actuele et une partie de l'azerbaijan Ali353535 (talk) 19:05, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Possible rewrite of the article

Article should be rewrote as it's filled with folklore masked as historical facts. Timurid invasion did happen and we know this of the two existing Persian chronicles (Zafarnama (Shami biography), Garrett Zafarnama), the primary sources on this. The result of the invasion was obviously decisive victory of Timurids, with the many of the Simsir's population being driven to the mountains (as per the chronicles). Pinging @Goddard2000, @Muqale, maybe you two are interested in this. I can try to rewrite the article using secondary RS who rely on the above mentioned chronicles. WikiEditor1234567123 (talk) 16:17, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

I think this article should just be deleted, there isn't enough information on the invasion of Simsir, this invasion has already been briefly mentioned in the Simsir article and that is enough in my opinion. Goddard2000 (talk) 17:41, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

I mean we have a whole page dedicated to the Expedition to Simsim in one of the two Persian Chronicles, from which I think I could atleast try to make the article. Speaking of deleting, Battle of Khachara (1667) has been on my mind as there's literally 3 sentences talking about it. Do you have anything to say against this?

В 1667 г. сформированный в Дагестане отряд газиев — «бор­цов за веру» — направился на территорию горной Чечни, в бассейн Аргуна для насильственного распространения там ислама. В этом войске находился и хунзахский ученый, вышеупомянутый Хусайн, сын Атанаса. В бою, развернувшемся около селения Дан­гу в Хачарое (Дангъаб Х1ачариб), он был убит кем-то из «невер­ных», то есть местных немусульман.

WikiEditor1234567123 (talk) 18:18, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

If there is more information regarding the Timurid invasions then sure, i was under the impression that it was mentioned briefly. As for the battle of Khachara i don't see a reason for its deletion as it talks about 1 event that has primary sources supporting it and secondary sources examining it fairly in my opinion. Goddard2000 (talk) 21:26, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Hello @Goddard2000 and @Alaexis. After some time, I managed to make a rewrite of this article in my sandbox. Could you both take a look at it and give your opinion? If no one has objections and consensus is reached, I suppose I could rewrite this article to my version? Best regards, WikiEditor1234567123 (talk) 18:28, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for rewriting it! I have some doubts about the battle that supposedly took place between the forces of Simsim and Timur (Invasion, second paragraph). Rtveladze says nothing about it (pp. 117-118). He just says that a part of Simsim sumbitted to Timur and the other part fled to the mountains and were chased by Timur there.

Which sources does Khizriev use? Let's make sure this did happen and is not a figment of nationalistic imagination. Alaexis_¿question? 17:46, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for noting on the battle, really, the two Persian chronicles doesn't mention the battle between Simsim and Timur near modern Grozny so this is probably a falsification of history. I will remove this. WikiEditor1234567123 (talk) 18:08, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

Alaexis I removed the mention of that fictious battle, is the article good now? WikiEditor1234567123 (talk) 18:27, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

Yes, let's move it to mainspace. Some improvements may still be needed but we can do afterwards. Alaexis_¿question? 06:01, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Alright, thanks for your help. I think we should do something about Mongol invasions of Durdzuketi (maybe rename the article as well?) and Chechen-Kazikumukh war too, not to mention series of articles that are hardly historical and more folkloric and generally lack reliable sourcing: Battle of Arm-Kurt, Yanbek, Battle of Gebak-Ghala Maida of Aukh, Battle of Ushkudzhe and so on... Best regards, WikiEditor1234567123 (talk) 07:42, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Réecriture de l'article

l'article dit des choses fausse comme l'invasion des montagne alors que seulement le basse terre était envahie et pas les montagne car ils sont lutter et timour a même affaire sont épée en signe de respect et c'est que après la mort de timurad que ils sont pue faire un reconcete des basse terre donc le résultat final reste simsir victoire et pas timurad victoire car ils sert gagner des battail comme selui du terek mais pas guerre en temps que tel merci de remettre l'anciens article qui était mieux écrie et plus prouver avec plus de précision sur les bataille. Ali353535 (talk) 18:59, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Page protection

Seeking page protection from insistent IP activity. -- GreenC 15:24, 25 April 2024 (UTC)