Talk:The Shire/Archive 1

Archive 1

References?

Can anyone provide references for the material cited? Dystopos 15:34, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

They're accumulating, slowly. Elphion (talk) 21:00, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Area of the Shire

Factual dispute: Tolkien (in an essay on the Languages of Middle-earth) describes The Shire as having an area of 18,000 square miles (more than the size of Yorkshire). A triangular area 100 x 50 miles would have an area of around 2500 square miles, leaving a lot of territory unaccounted for. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.92.67.66 (talk • contribs) 18:36 4 June 2003 (UTC)

As with Glorfindel, it's worth adding a little discussion of the apparent contradiction, this being the kind of value that Wikipedia adds for the Tolkien reader. Stan 20:37 4 Jun 2003 (UTC)

I'm not sure why "A triangular area 100 x 50 miles" has any relevance; that doesn't describe the Shire. The figure 18,000 square miles comes from multiplying the east-west extent (40 leagues = 120 miles) by the north-south extent (50 leagues = 150 miles), as given in the Prologue. Tolkien mentions the 18,000 figure explicitly (as mentioned above) in his essay on translating names from LotR into other languages, reprinted in A Tolkien Compass. It is probably a high estimate (as there is nothing to indicate that the area is truly rectangular), but it won't be dramatically off. An elliptical region with the same extents would be 14,137 square miles, almost certainly a low estimate. Elphion 19:53, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

File:002 westland with beleriand 2007-08-10.8a.png

Calculating from the data of my own vector map that was created from the folding C. Tolkien map that came with Unfinished Tales the Shire is 16491.1122 square statute miles. The map I posted to the left has a side length of 300 statute miles (meaning in the 1200px·1200px version one pixel side length equals a quarter statute mile). The extension from the northernmost point to the southernmost point (Sarn Ford) is ≈ 161 statute miles. The extension from the westernmost point to the easternmost point is ≈ 174 miles. Cush 13:02, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

I was immediately interested in your map, for I have never seen any Tolkien-generated map (in Unfinished Tales or anywhere else) that shows the boundaries of the Shire or the various farthings beyond the edges of the frustratingly limited Shire map originally published in The Fellowship of the Ring. It's a nice map, but the boundaries shown go far beyond any authorial authority that I have seen. What edition of Unifinished Tales has this information? I'm skeptical of the reliability of this additional detail (and the area figure you derive from it). For example, Tolkien's Shire map indicates that the boundary between the East and South Farthings follows the River Shirebourne all the way to the Brandywine. Elphion 12:26, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

If you think the map is inaccurate I can change it anytime. I'd be glad about more information. For now I have used mountain ridges and roads to interpolate reasonable borders. I have also looked at maps made by others. Cush 23:16, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

It's not so much a question of accuracy or inaccuracy (though there are some details in your map that don't accord with the evidence of Tolkien's books). The problem is that maps like yours are speculation: they go beyond what Tolkien has provided. The odds are minimal that your map (or any map drawn after the fact) would agree with what Tolkien would have drawn, and therefore it does not constitute reasonable evidence in a discussion (say) of the "true" area of the Shire.

Speculation is not always bad, but it's hard to do well. (Karen Fonstad's Atlas of Middle-Earth for example has a bad track record, with many details that contradict the evidence of the books.) What we should be posting in Wikipedia is information backed by Tolkien's books, not information invented because, for example, it would be nice to have a map. Anyone can draw a map, and any two of these are not likely to agree. Who's to say which is "right"? Elphion 18:10, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

File:Arda001.gif

Well, I suppose my way of map making is not any different from those who have published their maps in books so far. I put what I can obtain from text sources into my maps. Of course I have not read all there is, so I am more than happy to have someone point out geographic info to me. Right now I am trying to make a vector map out of one of Tolkien's own sketches to merge with the data I already have. Cush 22:27, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Bagendwide.jpg

Image:Bagendwide.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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Fair use rationale for Image:Shirewide.jpg

Image:Shirewide.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 15:49, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Smeagol and Deagol

The last edit claims that Smeagol and Deagol are brothers. It is well known that they were related, but as far as I can tell from other scources, they are cousins. Could someone please verify this? Hobbes543 17:37, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Changed brother to friend. From my research on this, Tolkien at best hinted that they were some how related, but he never fully defined their relationship, thus brother is an innaccurate term. Tolkien did how ever make it clear that they were friends. Hobbes543 03:08, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Scary?

Why did I get redirected to this page when I looked up "scary"?

The only entity with the name "Scary" is a village in the Shire. The redirect should have pointed to the Eastfarthing section. Súrendil 09:21, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Or possibly a dab can be created... Súrendil 09:48, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Southfarthing

Can anyone provide actual citations placing Gamwich and Cotton in the Southfarthing? Or for Longbottom being founded by Toby Hornblower and not existing earlier (as seems reasonably clear from the wording of the Prologue)? Or for the Southfarthing being "rural and fertile" (a reasonable inference but not stated anywhere that I can find)? Thanks Elphion 16:48, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Hearing none, I removed these references. Elphion 02:33, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Images from Matěj Čadil

There are images included from this person. A quick glance in English Google shows no references to their art. The images appear to come from a Czech fan Website, where the copyright legitimacy cannot be established. Without any apparent legal connection to the books or films, and apparently fan art, these don't belong in Wiki. They are removed.

24.130.9.210 (talk) 05:11, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Iceland

Why is Iceland mentioned in the section about farthings, and, more importantly, why is there a map of Iceland? It's irrelevant, let's get rid of it. Ingridjames (talk) 05:07, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

The map of Iceland (which is still there almost 12 years later) shows Iceland divided into West, North, South and East farthings (in Icelandic: Westlendinga fiördung, Nordlendinga fiördung, Sunnlændinga fiördung, Austlendinga fiördung). It shows where Tolkien might have borrowed the word farthing for use on real estate, though the same word (Modern English farthing, from Old English fëorðing) already existed in English to mean one-quarter of a penny in the £/s/d monetary system in use when he was writing, see Farthing#Coinage. — Tonymec (talk) 12:45, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

Regions of the Shire

Where does this information come from? The "References?" query above might refer to the same issue. I have read most of the JRRT books and none of this is familiar to me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mtpaley (talk • contribs) 21:57, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Following some of the links I find that at least some of them go to computer games, E.G. The historic Battle of Greenfields is a link to "http://www.ea.com/lotr-the-battle-for-middle-earth-2". I know that the history of fantasy universes is always a tricky area but surely in the case of Middle-Earth the only definitive source can be the works of JRR Tolkein. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mtpaley (talk • contribs) 22:06, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Give me a good reason why I should not delete the entire section. Mtpaley (talk) 22:08, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Yes, this could use a few more references, although there actually are quite a few. Much of the information comes from the Prologue of LOTR and from the map of the Shire immediately following it. There are also a few scattered references in the text of LOTR. All of the information, however, is solid. I'm away from my books at the moment, but give a few weeks and I can flesh this out.

I don't understand what you mean about computer games. I don't see any among the references, and reference 13 for "Battle of Greenfields" points to a chapter in The Return of the King.

-- Elphion (talk) 01:57, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Finished adding refs to "Regions of the Shire" (for now). I took the opportunity to reorganize and prune a bit. -- Elphion (talk) 19:42, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Westfarthing detail

The material being added to Westfarthing goes into detail we don't need to add; and much of it is not really about the Shire but about Bilbo. -- Elphion (talk) 00:50, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

Men prohibited from entering the Shire

The prohibition that no man could enter the Shire is mentioned at least three different times in this article. That's unnecessary. --Lecen (talk) 19:43, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

... but can 'women and children' travel there? Such terminology does matter in Middle Earth. 80.254.147.68 (talk) 15:10, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Pictures from Hobbiton

Hi guys, in case you want to use one or two pictures from this set, I'd be happy to accommodate you: http://www.philipp-guenther.com/?page_id=131. Just shoot me an email to photoblog[at]philipp-guenther.com. 88.67.59.14 (talk) 18:30, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Just a suggestion for the existing pictures of Hobbiton, could someone please re-look at the captions - particularly the second one. I just feel that a person who does not bother reading the article might be misled by the existing picture captions and take it literally that the Shire was located in New Zealand! Lord Gorthol (talk) 18:07, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

Caption edited -- Elphion (talk) 22:40, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

What does this bit mean? reeeeee-write please!

The Shire is, of course, not simply "identical" to the West Midlands. The region in a more remote past, as Mercia, serves at the same time as a model for the Mark of the Rohirrim. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.108.229.89 (talk) 21:32, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

Edited a bit - Elphion (talk) 04:49, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

Many thanks!Lord Gorthol (talk) 08:02, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

Bucklebury Ferry

Will some one please explain why the absence of any explanation of how Bucklebury Ferry was propelled or steered is not worthy of comment? This has puzzled me for years. If it was driven by the current (travelling diagonally across the Brandywine) then it could only have gone in one direction and would have had to be punted or rowed in the other. Also it could only have reached the opposite landing stage if guided by some chain or rope (none is mentioned). It certainly cannot have been "by magic" because Hobbits never used magic. I think that absence of explanation is a valid comment - far more so that any "do balrogs have wings?" nonsense. 141.241.26.21 (talk) 10:56, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

"Merry then pushed slowly off with a long pole." -- Elphion (talk) 19:00, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

I'd suggest reading the books before making ridiculous statements. GimliDotNet (talk) 20:07, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

I've read the book four times thank you very much. I always took "pushed slowly off" as "pushed slowly off...from the bank". It's possible Merry's "long pole" may have been a punting pole, but this is certainly not made very clear in the text.92.12.122.26 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 20:31, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

But what fuels the lamps in Buckland?--Jack Upland (talk) 04:34, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Bag End renovations

Can anyone support the description of Bag End's land as "anonymous"? I propose to remove this description.

I also propose to re-insert the links to hobbit and Middle-earth, for users who arrive on the page in the Bag End section.

In my view the article on Bag End should be about Bag End. To me the information about Daddy Twofoot should be removed: it says nothing about Bag End, and belongs in the article on Bagshot Row, where it can be found.

BTW I thank the person who improved the introduction to the Bag End article in recent days. It improved the introduction I had inserted only a few days previously, to give a brief overview, including its relationships to the books its links to some of the most famous characters of Middle-earth: Bilbo, Frodo and Sam, not to mention Middle-earth itself. Regards 111.220.250.59 (talk) 12:47, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

Sorry that should be Bag End's lane. 111.220.250.59 (talk) 13:07, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

Corners of the Shire

I would like to suggest that the localities of the Shire (Northfarthing, Stock, etc.) be transferred to a new separate article: (List of) Shire places. This would simplify the current article, to the benefit of users of Wikipedia, and enable it to concentrate on Shire-wide matters: an issue raised in above comments. Cheers 111.220.207.15 (talk) 10:50, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

As an alternative, perhaps separate articles for the key locations of Bag End and/or Hobbiton? Bag End's notable guests should be included (e.g. Gandalf, Thorin, Saruman), and Hobbiton should have a reference to the Hobbiton Movie Set. 111.220.238.98 (talk) 06:57, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

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Too long

This article is too long. It gives details not needed to even have a deep understanding of the Shire. On the other hand, this article is far shorter than the truly out of control article on Gondor.John Pack Lambert (talk) 21:07, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

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