Talk:The Rise and Fall of Ziggy Stardust and the Spiders from Mars/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Hardcore Punk?

Uh...since when are The Jam, The Clash, and The Ramones "hardcore" punk bands? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.161.41.68 (talk • contribs) 04:28, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

Good point. I also think that's the first time I've ever heard the band Yes referred to as "metallic". 207.157.121.50 06:25, 18 October 2005 (UTC)mightyafrowhitey

[Queen]'s first album came out in '73, and Ziggy Stardust came out in '72.....so how can Queen have influenced it? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.44.85.139 (talk • contribs) 17:39, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

I also remember hearing from more than one source that this is not a true "concept" album since the songs were written over a relatively lengthy period of time and were not thematically related. How Bowie came to pull them together in a way that makes them appear as a concept I don't know - that can't have been accidental, can it? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.79.56.107 (talk • contribs) 13:20, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

confusing, opiate lyrics

What are opiate lyrics? Operatic? Drug-fuelled? --대조 | Talk 15:37, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

This article gives the mistaken impression that "The Man Who Fell to Earth" was in some way related to Ziggy Stardust. This is hardly the case; Walter Tevis wrote the book in 1963---before anybody had any idea who David Bowie---much less Ziggy Stardust---was.

-cneron —The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:216.39.180.60216.39.180.60 (talk • contribs) 14:44, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

This article is way too glowing

The article portrays this album as if it were the best thing since fish grew legs. It really needs cleaning up; in some places the article sounds less like an encyclopedic reference page and more like something you'd find on a David Bowie fansite. Molimo 23:44, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Exactly. It reads like it was written by Bowie's mother. - Anon

I agree as well. "Mick Ronson's guitar work is especially beloved on this album; on previous Bowie compositions, he had displayed talent and occasional spots of brilliance (e.g., Hunky Dory's "Queen Bitch") but he shone on this album, playing the chords that (in the story) awakened the consciousness of humanity." I'm no psychic, but I'm thinking that was written by a Mick Ronson fan. - 195.184.109.162 22:35, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Ziggy Marley

I'm fairly certain the comment about Ziggy Marley naming himself after the album is false. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Thanielusher (talk • contribs) 20:09, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

'Story Arc'

Where does the information about the 'story arc' come from? Is it official and verifiable or is just somebodies own supposition and interpretations of quite ambiguous lyrics? quercus robur 13:15, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree, it looks like a load of shite.

'Influence'

Would it be worth mentioning that this album has influenced the new My Chemical Romance album? MCR is taking a similar Bowie route, with their alternate persona "The Black Parade", and they initially announced their new album's title as "The Rise and Fall of My Chemical Romance", which was recenty revealed to be "a code, a joke". —The preceding unsigned comment was added by MJB12 (talk • contribs) 22:43, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Also, Bauhaus, the influential gothic forefathers covered this song. From the Bauhaus wiki... " Also in 1982 Bauhaus scored their biggest hit with another nod to theied glam roots, a cover of David Bowie's "Ziggy Stardust", which reached number 15 in the charts. " This should certainly be mentioned. From NPOV, it had an introduced a whole new scene to David Bowie, and from a slightly less neutral view, the album's glam rock aesthetics seems to have influenced modern scenes. 72.147.63.91 12:45, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

A bit more direct then the MCR album, Butch Walker released The Rise and Fall of Butch Walker and the Let's-Go-Out-Tonites this year, which is a direct take off the album. 68.211.255.208 21:05, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Rewrite incoming

I love this album! However, the article (as stated above) appears like a speculative fan hommage. It's nicely done but inappropriate for Wikipedia. I will return when I have more time and make some drastic changes. The main things mising are references.

The intro seems fine. Needs some links to MM and Billboard etc but appears to be factually based.

1. Overview - needs a definite reference to the album being a concept space alien album. The story almost seems confused with The Man who fell to Earth and other Bowie personas later. If there was any doomed Messiah it was Bowie killing off Ziggy at the Hammersmith (in real life). The album has elements of glam but is certainly not archetypal for glam rock. Strangely enough the article shoots itself in the foot by also calling it pop rock and art rock. The Mick Ronson part is PoV. (And personally I think the Ronson solo in Life on Mars was far more brilliant than anything on ZSATSFM.)

2. Antecedents and influences

"Star" begins similarly to The Who's "Pinball Wizard" (off Tommy). No it doesn't! Pinball wizard starts with about 30 seconds of mellow guitar shaped based on Bm with a droning F#. the frantically shouted "wham, bam, thank you ma'am" was an improvised replacement for "one more time". It's also a sexual connotation! Lots's of unsourced specualtion here.

3. The influence of Ziggy Stardust within the history of music

Might certainly want to add Nina Hagen to the list of Ziggy influenced persons.

4. The Spiders From Mars

Mick "Ronno" Ronson - band leader, guitar, piano and vocals Trevor Bolder - bass Mick "Woody" Woodmansey - drums [edit] Some quotes from Bowie on Ziggy Stardust

5. Track listing and explanation of the story arc

Much of this seems to be original interpretation. Also, couldn't find any reference to the instructions on the reverse of the album (don't have a copy to hand) that say something like "play at maximum volume".

Candy 09:45, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Pioneer of Jazzy Saxaphone?

We have here: Soul Love is notable for Bowie's pioneering and original use of a jazzy saxophone.

Great song, love the jazzy sax on it, but what's particularly "pioneering and original" about it? Had nobody played sax in a "jazzy" way before? ;) Camillus (talk) 23:12, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

The Spiders from Mars band (2005 band)

Well, I decided to remove the information about that band, because it was poorly formatted, which made it really confusing. I decided to create an article for that band, and add a disambiguation link at the top. I know nothing about this new band, so please, if the info is wrong, or should be changed, feel free to change it, but please, leave a comment on the discussion page. Phibrizoq 20:09, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Spoiler Warning

Why does this need to be here? Nobody's going to get annoyed if you tell them the story (such as it is ) of Ziggy Stardust. If there are no objections soon, I'll remove it. Vanityjunkie 15:07, 13 April 2007 (UTC) Also, I think I'll have a go at rewriting at least some of this article. It really needs improvement, as has been noted before. Any suggestions would be welcome. Vanityjunkie 08:17, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it definitely needs it. I've got a fair few up to a decent standard (David Bowie, MWSTW, Hunky Dory, Aladdin, Dogs, Heroes, Lodger, Scary Monsters) so by all means have a look at those for ideas on layout, coverage, etc - Ziggy's next on my list after Station to Station, which I've just about finished. Cheers, Ian Rose 08:48, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Reference Problems

I'm sorry but the reference to "Back in the USSR" is complete nonsense, has someone who has listened to this album over and over again, that particular song and "Suffragette City" have nothing in common. Just because the Beatles may have "experimented" with a surf-rock style does not make it worth mentioning, the Beach Boys comparison is enough. Now I'm not some anti-Beatles nut, but I am aware of certain Liverpudlian zealotry in most Wikipedia music articles (someone once cited a Beatles reference on a Sex Pistols article of all things, of which I've also discussed on that particular page), the song if anything is a pastiche of a Velvet Underground/Stooges number, much like "Queen Bitch", now that comparison would be just considering Bowie has actually cited them as influences. The fact that some Beatles fans on here will do anything to make every article Beatles-centric is getting out of hand, right now it is a completely frivolous comparison that makes as much sense as saying that Sonic Youth influenced My Bloody Valentine just because both lead guitarist both at one time or another used Fender Jazzmasters. 156.110.50.6 (talk) 15:20, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Fuck it I made the changes myself. 68.97.34.183 (talk) 00:52, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

This article is a sprawling, aimless mess

Okay, that's a little harsh. However. Amongst other WikiCrimes–POV, Original Research, fancruft, a full spray of peacock terms (as well as a missing reflist)–it's easy to find something that's cringe-worthy here. Given the article's subject's notability (Awesomely High) and that I made a similar complaint a year a half ago, I would have hoped that the more objective (and knowledgeable) Bowie editors to have done some cleanup. I will do my best in the near future. --Fantailfan (talk) 11:23, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Heh, tell it like it is, mate! Yes, many have threatened to do something about this, including me (though it was always low on my list - despite its undoubted importance to Bowie's career, artistically I never rated it that highly) so we'll see who gets to it first... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 12:56, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

What have I done? (a running commentary)

• Uploaded a picture that's better than the older one but still fur.
• Given credit where it is due (No more "Spiders from Mars," just musicians; and a let's give a hand for Toby Mountain, Ron Davies and Dana Gillespie).
• Removed a couple of weasel words and peacock terms. Just getting started in that department.

Fantailfan (talk) 02:42, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

I saw someone has reverted the "Original track listing." Don't agree, but policy says it is equally acceptable. Wish the reasoning had been posted here. Fantailfan (talk) 13:10, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

• Added cute little flags to the infobox and removed Rykodisc reissue date (to be added to Reissue section later)
• Cited a reference properly.
• Sectioned off Reissues for later expansion.

--Fantailfan (talk) 00:40, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

• Found where some of the cites were nicked from. Fantailfan (talk) 19:45, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
• More references fixed. More credits added.
• Sections rearranged and renamed.
• Still to do: delete most of the bombast, add more contemporary reviews, expand out the Editions section, expand the "Velvet Goldmine" section from a Bowie POV. Fantailfan (talk) 17:03, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
• Created production section and deleted the super-POV stuff in the first section. --Fantailfan (talk) 22:25, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
• cleaned up bonus tracks, personnel --Fantailfan (talk) 20:19, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Track listing section

I reverted this edit by Fantailfan in accordance with the guidelines set by WikiProject Albums at WP:ALBUMS#Track listing, which says: "If the album was released primarily on CD and spans multiple discs, these should be listed separately under sub-headings named 'Disc one', 'Disc two' and so on. Albums originally released primarily on vinyl or cassette should similarly list the tracks of each side separately under sub-headings named 'Side one' and 'Side two'." Funeral 13:17, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Suffragette City

I've always thought that Suffragette City has a certain debt to a 1968 hit called Judy In Disguise (With Glasses) by John Fred And His Playboy Band. Does anybody else hear this? BTLizard (talk) 11:38, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:The Rise and Fall of Ziggy Stardust and the Spiders from Mars/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Article requirements: Y All the start class criteria Y A completed infobox, including cover art and most technical details Y At least one section of prose (excluding the lead section) Y A track listing containing track lengths and authors for all songs Y A full list of personnel, including technical personnel and guest musicians Y Categorisation at least by artist and year Y A casual reader should learn something about the album. Andrzejbanas (talk) 23:36, 11 May 2008 (UTC) It is start because it is somewhat diffuse, all over the place. Fantailfan 23:35, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Last edited at 23:36, 11 May 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 15:58, 1 May 2016 (UTC)