Talk:The Magic Flute/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

"Astrofiammante"

I've been looking into this. The situation is that in Schikaneder's dialogue, both early in Act 1 between Tamino and Papageno and later between Papageno and Pamina, the Queen is described as "die sternflammende Königin"[1]. In English, that's usually translated as "the star-blazing Queen" or something similar.

In 1794, the opera was performed in Prague in an Italian translation (with recits rather than spoken dialogue) by Giovanni de Gamerra.[2] This became the standard Italian translation, and was used in countries other than Italy. In the Tamino/Papageno and Papageno/Pamina scenes, the term "die sternflammende Königin" became "Regina notturna astrifiammante" or "la Regina astrifiammante",[3] i.e. "the star-flaming Queen". "Astrifiammante" isn't a name, it's an adjective.

Nevertheless, it looks as if someone sometime thought that "Regina astrifiammante", notwithstanding the lower-case "a", meant "Queen Astrifiammante", and that's how she's come to be known in Italy (see the Italian Wikipedia [4]). The opera was frequently performed in Italian in the C19 in countries such as England and the USA, where Italian opera ruled and opera with spoken dialogue was a no-no, and the spurious "name" of the Queen spread. However, it wasn't always spelled as in the Italian translation - Google will also give you Astrafiammante, Astrafiamante and Astrofiammante. I guess that the "Astra-" versions are based on dim memories of Latin where "astra" is a neuter plural word meaning "stars" ("Per ardua ad astra"). One Italian word for star is "astro", plural "astri" (the other is "stella"). "Astra" doesn't mean anything in Italian.

So, to sum up, the "name", however spelled, is based on a misconception. Hope this helps!! --GuillaumeTell (talk) 00:39, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Hello Guillaume, This is very interesting! My own web searching suggests that "Astrofiammante" did take on a certain vogue in English speaking-countries; old books (listed in Google books) do describe the Queen with this name. Not clear what should be done with the article text... Cheers, Opus33 (talk) 00:49, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

I've modified your note to take account of the above - does that look OK? Best. GuillaumeTell 21:40, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Looks just fine, Cheers, Opus33 (talk) 01:39, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Option for Three Acts?

I've never heard of this. The score says two. I've heard of only one (with significant cuts), but never three. Is this at all common? If it is rare, I'd prefer that if it gets mentioned at all, that its a parenthetical mention at the end of the synopsis. Fully integrating it as an equal option is misleading. DavidRF (talk) 00:09, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

I've never heard of this either. It was introduced in this edit on 2-Sep-2008. As you suggest, it should be removed, or, if there is supporting evidence, mentioned less prominently. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 02:25, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

changed to "standard layout" for 2-act version with a note that it may be sometimes given in 3-acts. Viva-Verdi (talk) 23:50, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

The three boys

Hello. I've just redirected the orphaned article The three boys (opera characters). It doesn't make sense to have a separate article for these characters but there's probably some content there worth incorporating in this article. Since I have no real expertise on the subject, I hope someone here can take a look at it and decide on the best course of action. Cheers, Pichpich (talk) 16:57, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, Pichpich. I looked, and it seems there is nothing in there that could go in The Magic Flute. There might be stuff usable in for the article about the Bergman film, or about the children's book author mentioned--but on the other hand, it all seems to be out of the author's memory, with no reference sources. I'd be happy just to let the matter drop. Opus33 (talk) 18:14, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

References in Popular Culture

I thought it might be of interest to add a reference to Philip K. Dick's novel Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?. I wasn't sure about the position or heading, if anyone wished to edit the entry feel free. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jamiemcginlay (talk • contribs) 23:48, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Clementi influence?

At the start of Clementi's piano Sonata in B flat Major, op. 24 n. 2 there is a melody that was used in the Magic Flute in both the overture and the aria "Der Hölle Rache". Are there experts who can give a reliable background to this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.125.79.195 (talk) 11:57, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

The overture link is real, I'd never heard about the "Der Hölle Rache" link. The Muzio_Clementi article mentions the overture link. A google search will bring up lots of hits. One is [5]. A google book search brings up other hits. And of course, with access to a library, one could do a more thorough check of the top sources, but I'm at work right now.  :-) All of this said, I don't know how notes the origins of melodic ideas would fit into the article. That's not to say that it can't be done, but I find no obvious place at first glance. Cheers.DavidRF (talk) 14:29, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Books: Davenport

Das Baz (talk · contribs) has now twice ([1], [2], no edit summary) added this sentence: "Guy Davenport has written short stories in which the Three Boys appear. Their names are given as Buckeye, Quark, and Tumble." I have removed it once (edit summary: "removed tenuous work 'inspired by'").

I maintain that this is of no significance for the article on The Magic Flute, especially since it doesn't seem to be mentioned on Davenport's page. The sentence as added is not referenced and the names of the boys seem to make any connection with Mozart's opera highly tenuous. I suggest to remove the sentence again. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 01:38, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

I agree. Opus33 (talk) 02:43, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

AGREE also Viva-Verdi (talk) 04:09, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Absolutely. There should be a WP:PIGGYBACK against this kind of thing ;-) almost-instinct 17:12, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

I have posted a warning note about this continual series of reversions on Das Baz's Talk page.Viva-Verdi (talk) 22:56, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Vocal range of Papagena

Although this part is short and simple, isn't Papagena a mezzo-soprano? Anderston (talk) 09:15, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Questions like this come up a lot for operas of that period. I believe the current classification of voice types didn't quite exist then — female singers were sopranos and male singers were either tenors or bass singers. Also, in this particular case, the singer of Papagena at the premiere, Barbara Gerl, is described as a soprano; so is the role in the score at the Neue Mozart-Ausgabe. Modern performance practices and voice type classification will of course assign modern terms, but they may well vary. So, to be on the safe side, and not be accused of unsourced point-of-view representations, I think we should stick to what the composer wrote or what is printed in an authoritative edition. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 10:26, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree, following the composer is of course a right decision. In fact, I suppose that this role can be sung by both soprano and mezzo-soprano in modern classification because it doesn't require wide vocal range (same is true even for the major role of Papageno (it can be sung by both bass and baritone in modern classification), which was discussed on this talk page). But I think it is questionable that all the female singers were described as sopranos. At least in chorus there always were altos and sopranos. Castrati singers, as far as I know, were also classified as altos and sopranos. Moreover, it was a common practice to write a role not for a certain voice type, but even for a particular singer, which is, by the way, the case with the role of The Queen of the Night. That kind of role cannot be descibed as simply written for a soprano Anderston (talk) 12:20, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Btw, sorry to butt in - am just wandering by - but in some operas "in chorus there always were altos and sopranos" is not true. eg in L'elisir d'amore the chorus is on three staves: Sop. 1i. e 2i. - Tenori 1i. e 2i. - Bassi (see here) I'm not sure if this is purely a Bel canto era thing: in the vocal score for Il trovatore this same three-stave arrangement is also to be seen almost-instinct 17:22, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Papageno bass?

According to the original Fassung the role of Papageno is to be sung by a bass. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.108.230.225 (talk) 07:47, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

As the article mentioned, Papageno's part, though a major role, is mostly musically simple. Papageno doesn't go down as low as Sarastro does, but there's nothing on the high end so high that a bass can't sing it, and it is commonly is sung by a bass. (The one time I did this show, our Sarastro mentioned he had played Papageno a lot more in the past than he had Sarastro.)

That means your Sarastro was miscast. Papageno's music doesn't just lie "higher than Sarastro's"; it lies higher than Figaros, Leporellos, and Guilliamo's, too! It's not a bass and not a bass-baritone; it's a HIGH baritone, like Don Alphonso and the Count. True, none of it is strictly speaking above the bass range, but the TESSITURA, the AVERAGE pitch in the role, is way high, and the high notes must be sung comfortably, as if they were the singer's sweet-spot. A true bass trying to sing Papageno will strain to sustain the high-lying lines, and choke to death before the end of Act 1. By the way, Don G's music is a lot higher than Leporellos! DonG almost never goes below the F in the middle of the bass-staff. SingingZombie (talk) 05:07, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm not pressuring for an edit here, since it's correct that Papageno's part generally lies higher than Sarastro's - as contrasted with Giovanni and Leporello who have almost identical ranges (if anything Leporello's a little lower). The Don Giovanni article calls Giovanni "baritone or bass-baritone", Leporello "bass or bass-baritone"; maybe we could do the same here. TaigaBridge (talk) 08:17, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

A lot of Mozart "baritone" roles are actually "bass-baritone" and can be sung by either. Figaro, Giovanni and Leporello are other examples. DavidRF (talk) 14:31, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Ummmm, no. You're right about Figaro and Leporello, but Don G is a true baritone. Bass-baritones sing the role, but they should not. The music is consistently a major third or so above Leporello's, frequently goes as high as E above Mid C, and almost never drops below the F in the middle of the bass staff.) Don G is a role for people who sing the Count, Don Alphonso, and Papageno. SingingZombie (talk) 21:14, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Any role that has a middle E as its top note is scarcely the definition of a "true" baritone role. Compare with Enrico in Lucia (top G), di Luna in Trovatore (top G), Valentin in Faust (top G), Onegin (top G), Wolfram (top G), Marcello (top F#), Billy Budd (top G, plus optional top A). Papageno, like Don A in Cosi, is a role for a singers with a limited range, which isn't saying terribly much at all almost-instinct 23:23, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

First of all, again, the extremes matter very much less than the tessitura (which can be approximated by the average pitch of all the notes in the part, weighted by the length of the notes). Osmin, for instance, goes way up to F-natural above mid-C (on "zu" and "ihr" when he sings "Mich, zu hintergehen, muss ihr fruh aufstehen!" in his big first-act aria), but he's still an infra-bass, and would remain one, even without the low D in his final-act aria. His COMFORT-NOTES are in the lower half of the bass-staff and sometimes below the staff.

Secondly, all those baritones you listed are athletic big-theatre/big-orchestra Ninteenth-Century parts (except for the Benjamin Britton piece and he's a world unto himself). That's a whole different ball game. MOZART true-baritones don't go much higher--the Count tops on one single climactic F# and other than that when does he go above mid-E? Never, I think. He's a high baritone because even when he's supposed to be most comfortable, during the ensembles with the women, and during secco recitatives, his ordinary, effortless-voice, he's still above bass-clef A. SingingZombie (talk) 04:43, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

"Dangerous kind of obscurantism"

This phrase "...a dangerous kind of obscurantism", describing the meaning of the Queen of the Night and her feminine following, is mealy-mouthed weasel-speak. (No offense meant.) The "dangerous obscurantism" was, of course, the Lodge's main rival, the Catholic Church, whose members among the Austrian Royalty had been opposing the Masons for some time. Shouldn't be that hard to find a source.... SingingZombie (talk) 05:43, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

OK, got it. http://www.masonmusic.org/mozart.html

I hope it's ok as a source--it's clearly written by active Masons. But the history is verifiable. SingingZombie (talk) 05:50, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Sprecher's range

Normally I'd say go with what was written in the original score, but the Sprecher ("Speaker of the Temple", a very misleading name since he is a recitative singer, not one of the all-spoken roles in the piece) who explains to Tamino that Sarastro is a good-guy and women should not be taken seriously, is not a "bass"; he's a bass-baritone. It's historically important because this role was a model for Wotan/Wanderer, the quintessential bass-baritone. Typically the Sprecher is recorded by true bass-baritones, like Hans Hotter, Paul Schoffler, and Jose van Dam, but sometimes also by full baritones like Fischer-Dieskau, Andres Schmidt, John Brownlee, and George London. Occasionally a bass, a Sarastro-wannabe like Kurt Boehme or Jan-Hedrik Rootering will do it, but only occasionally, and on most of those occasions it's a bass who doubles as a bass-baritone, like Rootering, who sang Wotan a couple of times, or Georg Hann. SingingZombie (talk) 01:46, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Soll dich ich...

I seem to have forgotten the name of the terzetto, but still, in one production I saw it performed right after Sarastro's "O Isis und Osiris" instead of the chorus. 4 = 2 + 2 15:11, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, the order of the second act changes in some performances. Most often though the trio comes later, after the whole Monostatos-Queen-Sarastro aria sequence and the chorus of priests, before Papageno's aria. That's the order in the Schirmer Piano-vocal score, too. Narrative-wise, however, it works better with the trio at the beginning, as you saw it, because at the beginning of Act 2 finale, Pamina is still suffering from Tamino's refusal to talk to her which prompted her aria. If the trio comes between the aria and finale, Sarastro's promise that they will meet later should still be comforting her. By the way it's "Soll ich dich ...", not "...dich ich ...". SingingZombie (talk) 21:12, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

The T-P-2-Armed-Men Quartet

If the article is gonna mention that the 2 Armed Men's unison anthem is in Baroque chorale-form (which of course should be mentioned), why not also mention that it is preceded by a fugue? Mozart had only recently become interested in "ancient music" (meaning mostly Bach) and started writing fugues, in the Overture to Magic Flute, the "Kyrie Eleison" in the REQUIEM, a few other pieces. It solemnizes the quartet which is, after all, the climax of the whole piece. SingingZombie (talk) 21:07, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Discography

Trying to start a discography but table function doesn't seem to be working. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.237.243.185 (talk) 08:33, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Please read Help:Table and Help:Show preview before you try again. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 13:07, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Also. See Così fan tutte discography and Don Giovanni discography. You might be able to create a child article right off the bat.DavidRF (talk) 18:12, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Cleaned up 207.237.243.185's attempts to create a box, so now it is in place. It's always a good idea to take a look at other tables and copy their layout. Viva-Verdi (talk) 19:00, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

I've just implemented DavidRF's suggestion, which seems like a good idea given that there must be a million recordings. Opus33 (talk) 21:23, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Good idea. Viva-Verdi (talk) 00:00, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

The Fifth Element

I have very little expertise in this area, but it seems to me that the opera performed in The Fifth Element may have been inspired by the vocal styling from this piece. I do not know the name of the one performed in the movie, if it is an original for the film or not, etc. etc. Just thought I'd add my two cents. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.101.237.199 (talk) 19:48, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Orpheus

Here's a question: can anyone find an online source for the obvious, well-known influence of Gluck's ORPHEUS AND EURIDICE on THE MAGIC FLUTE? The whole lover-suffering-from-doubt-because-hero-is-required-to-stay-silent thing. And, for that matter, the taming-the-wild-creatures-with-music thing. Can't seem to find it online but I read about it in innumerable articles when I was an undergrad and the wiki article ought to mention it for completeness. SingingZombie (talk) 21:29, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't know if it can be found online, but Robert Moberley's "Three Mozart Operas" goes into this in quite a bit of detail. Morag Kerr (talk) 11:50, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Queen of the Night

Link in reference to Italian page broken. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 101.160.17.102 (talk) 11:51, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

Passage moved to talk page

In addition, Mozart was quite uncharacteristically open to changing elements of the opera in order to give it simply more popular appeal, and not just on the basis of level of difficulty, which he did strangely by discarding the original, more complex version of the famous duet on marital bliss by Papageno and Papagena ("Mann und Weib"). This unprecedented willingness, in a composer who previously was a stalwart in the defense of his own artistic vision – often to his own professional interpersonal detriment – has been explained as an indication of more general "entertainment" intents in The Magic Flute, rather than specific and constant themes, be they Masonic or more generally philosophical. Though clearly such entertainment desiderata do not rule out an underlying Masonic theme,[12] just as the sensitivity to performer skill-level did not lessen the composer's deeper musical advances in this work.

This seems to cover an awful lot of ground and expresses opinions that I suspect are rather far from the critical mainstream. Perhaps we could have a separate section, or satellite article, covering the diversity of critical opinion on the opera? Opus33 (talk) 02:56, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

Discussion of Oberon

I'm moving this to this talk page:

Giesecke did not credit Seyler, but it soon became evident that his work was based on Seyler, and he later came under much criticism for plagiarism. According to Peter Branscombe, "it has long been recognized that Giesecke, the named author of Wranitzky's libretto, deserves little credit for what is largely a plagiarism," concluding that "Giesecke's "Oberon, König der Elfen is hardly more than a mild revision of Seyler's book." Giesecke's version of Seyler's Oberon was the first opera performed by Schikaneder's troupe at their new theater, and established a tradition within the company of fairy tale operas that was to culminate in The Magic Flute two years later. Seyler's husband was the theatre director Abel Seyler, who was "the leading patron of German theatre" in his lifetime, and who was, like Mozart and Schikaneder, also a freemason.

My reasoning is that this material isn't really very much about about The Magic Flute but rather about Oberon. Indeed, AFAIK it already appears in the article about Hüon und Amande, the opera from which Oberon was basically plagiarized. So I think it's better to keep our coverage of The Magic Flute reasonably terse, and let readers follow the link to Hüon und Amande if they want to learn more about the Oberon plagiarism. Opus33 (talk) 03:17, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

References

Synopsis

The tailpiece to the plot synopssis reads:

The opera may sometimes be divided into three acts in which case, the third act typically begins with scene 8. Even in the two-act version, the scenes in act 2 are sometimes rearranged, with the Sarastro-Tamino-Pamina trio occurring earlier and Sarastro's prayer occurring later.

I can't work out from the plot summary where this "Scene 8" is supposed to occur. Can someone clarify? Also, different versions of the score use different scene divisions; the Boosey and Hawkes vocal score, for example, divides Act 2 into 10 scenes, not 7 as indicated here. Is it really necessary to mark every scene change in the summary, based on one version? Another thing: I've been watching and listening to this opera since about 1989 and I've never seen, or indeed heard of, a three-act version. How common are these? Brianboulton (talk) 20:34, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

Hi, I've never heard of a three-act version either. For issues of what is really in the score, the most authoritative version would probably be the Neue Mozart Ausgabe, which is on line and linked from the article. Opus33 (talk) 21:15, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

I did of course look at the online Neue Mozart Ausgabe, which uses a different concept of "scene" (Auftritt) and throws no light on the supposed (and I suspect bogus) three-act version. Unless the statement can be shown to have a basis in fact, it shouldn't be in the article. Brianboulton (talk) 00:32, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

While I'm here: apologies to Brian if I sounded patronizing, I certainly didn't mean to. Opus33 (talk) 17:05, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

I, too, have doubts about a 3-act version and support that paragraph's removal. OTOH, I quite like a synopsis by scenes/Auftritte, which ought to follow the NMA.

History: The 3-act idea was introduced as a comparison table by User:Str1977 on 2 September 2008, and then simplified by User:Viva-Verdi on 7 December 2008. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 07:18, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

I have removed the uncited information concerning a three-act version. If anyone wants to add it back, they should supply a reliable source, and also be much more clear about where the supposed break in Act 2 occurred. As for following the NMA Auftritte organisation, it's not practical. See here; there are 15 Auftritte in Act 1 and 26 in Act 2, with no other indicated scene divisions. Brianboulton (talk) 15:32, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

Writing "keeping in mind the skills of the singers"

On the more general question of uncited information, does anyone know the sources for the information given in this paragraph:

"Mozart evidently wrote keeping in mind the skills of the singers intended for the premiere, which included both virtuosi and ordinary comic actors, asked to sing for the occasion. Thus, the vocal lines for Papageno—sung by Schikaneder himself—and Monostatos (Johann Joseph Nouseul) are often stated first in the strings so the singer can find his pitch, and are frequently doubled by instruments. In contrast, Mozart's sister-in-law Josepha Hofer, who premiered the role of the Queen of the Night, evidently needed little such help: this role is famous for its difficulty. In ensembles, Mozart skillfully combined voices of different ability levels."

Brianboulton (talk) 19:27, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

I find that paragraph quite consistent with what I hear and would not challenge it. As for its history:

• introduced by 84.43.73.172 on 14 March 2006
• rephrased by User:Opus33 on 11 June 2007.

-- Michael Bednarek (talk) 05:32, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

• Thank you. That's a while back, and citation conventions have changed meanwhile. An opinion-based statement, even if generally acceptable, ought to be attributed to a third party source; maybe Opus can say where it came from. In other respects this article could do with some TLC to bring it closer to the Opera Project's recommendations on opera articles, and it would be nice if someone were to take it on. I can't do so myself at the moment, though I will do a little work on the discography. Brianboulton (talk) 15:54, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

My reaction is complicated:

• Like Michael, "I find that paragraph quite consistent with what I hear and would not challenge it."
• Factually, I checked through the score and indeed Papageno and Monostatos (Schikaneder and Nouseul) are given quite a bit of help finding their pitch.
• In my reading I have repeatedly encountered the general point that Mozart repeatedly customized his writing to the voices he had available; that would not be hard to source.
• On the other hand, I don't know any reference source for the original claim.

So this case seems borderline to me; i.e. it could be removed on WP:NOR grounds, or it could be kept as an "obvious from inspection" observation. Opus33 (talk) 17:05, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

I don't see a need to remove or revise the information at the moment; as you say, it's uncontroversial. Should the article in the future be developed more formally, the wording may have to be reconsidered. But all I'm going to do at present is expand the discography; there are lots of recordings I never knew existed. Brianboulton (talk) 20:21, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

(TL;DNR)

This is a bad entry because there is no clear description at the start of just what the Magic Flute is all about (which is what I was wanting to know). It's written as though we all know that already - well, lots of us don't. We have to proceed down to the long and detailed scene-by-scene synopsis. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.177.4.109 (talk) 14:36, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

Boy meets girl (x2); no-one dies (except a snake). -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 03:24, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Freemasons and the Catholic Church

Shouldn't the section on "Freemasonry and the Magic Flute" mention the ongoing rivalry between the Freemasons and the Catholic Church? Maria Teresa's opposition to the Lodge was certainly partly a result of her adherence to Roman Catholicism. I am linking the phrase "Roman Catholic" to the wiki article on the papal prohibition on Catholics joining the lodge. Goblinshark17 (talk) 01:41, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

The source doesn't support the assumption that Maria Theresia was opposed to Masonism because of her Catholic beliefs (althought that's not unlikely). At any rate, it's very misleading to link the words "Roman Catholic" to the article Opposition to Freemasonry within Christianity – that's called an Easter Egg and is strongly discouraged/prohibited at WP:EASTEREGG. I wrote that much in my edit summary, and the contentious construct should not have been restored before the matter was properly discussed (see WP:BRD). If such a claim (that the empress opposed Masonism because of her Catholic beliefs) is to be made, it has to be made explicitly and with sources, not by stealth. Alternatively, a properly worded "See also" link might be appropriate. Please revert your use of the easter egg. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 05:37, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

OK, sorry, I didn't know about "Easter Eggs". Goblinshark17 (talk) 17:50, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

I have found a reference which suggests that the Queen of the Night represents the Roman Catholic Church itself. The reference is to a book, which is online at books.google.com. I have footnoted the book and the internet site--it's a very long url which causes books.google.com to search for the book and the passage within it, on search words "Empress Maria Theresa Catholic Freemason", but it seems to work when I click it. Goblinshark17 (talk) 18:15, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Shouldn't quotations in foreign languages be italicized?

I worked for a short time as a copy-editor, and as I recall, foreign-language quotations should be italicized. N'est-ce pas? Goblinshark17 (talk) 17:37, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

No, they shouldn't. WP:ITALICS: "Italic type should be used for [m]ajor works of art". "Minor works (and any specifically-titled subdivisions of italicized major works) are given in quotation marks." "Wikipedia prefers italics for phrases in other languages and for isolated foreign words" – the opera project does not apply this to musical numbers; none of the featured articles Agrippina, L'incoronazione di Poppea, Il ritorno d'Ulisse in patria, Tosca, Gianni Schicchi, Rinaldo, Les pêcheurs de perles do. Lastly: "Use one style or the other (quotation marks or italics) in a given context; do not apply both styles at once to the same terms". I suggest to revert to the unitalicised version of the German aria incipits. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 10:52, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Placement of second act Trio

I have inserted a note into the SYNOPSIS saying that the second-act trio "Soll ich dich teurer, nicht mehr sehn?" is sometimes performed earlier in the act. For the record, this is done to preserve the continuity of Pamina's suicidal feelings. With the conventional placement of the trio as described in the synopsis, she has the scene where Tamino refuses to talk to her, she sings the aria "Ach ich fuhl's" about how miserable she is, and then there's the trio, in which Sarastro explains that the trials will continue and she and Tamino sing lovingly to each other, and then in the second act finale she's suicidal AGAIN. That makes no sense--her suicidal feelings and fears that Tamino no longer loves her should have been resolved by the trio. However if the trio is performed earlier in the act, then she goes straight from her sadness aria to her suicidal appearance in the finale, with no intervening appearances, which makes good dramatic sense. I didn't put this explanation in the note in the synopsis, so I'm putting it here instead. Goblinshark17 (talk) 17:32, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Hello Goblinshark, you've only put in one example, which I don't think is enough to support the implicit claim your making that this reordering of scenes is a standard performance practice. Ideally, there would be a published reference source to back this up -- maybe you could find one? Else I guess multiple examples would be ok as a backup. But as things stand I think the text has problems with WP:VER. Thank you. Opus33 (talk) 15:34, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Hello Opus33. OK, I've found a reference which discusses the placement of the trio and the interruption of Pamina's suicidal feelings. But the reference is in books.google.com and the url is very long. Hope it works! The author of the referenced book opposes changing the order of performance, but at least he discusses the issue. Goblinshark17 (talk) 00:22, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Thank you, GS. I don't think you need to worry about that source, even if the URL is long. Scholarly books published by big university presses are gold standard as WP reference sources. It's really just a bonus if the book happens to be on Google. Opus33 (talk) 02:12, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Three "boys" -- NOT!

The three spirits are not "three boys"; they are three SPIRITS, often played by boys, but not always. See for instance Furtwangler's recordings (1949 and 1950); also Klemperer's recording. In these recordings the spirits are played by adult women.

Also, the sentence "[The protagonists] escape all dangers by using the magical instruments (flute, bells)" or whatever it said, was WRONG. They escape the danger of the trial-by-silence, not by using the instruments, but just by shutting up. So I've removed that sentence. SingingZombie (talk) 00:39, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

I would like to join the discussion. The drammatis personae of the Libretto of the premiere list them as "Drey Genien", lateron in the text always as "Die drey Knaben" or "Erster/zweyter/dritter Knabe" and "Knabe" means: Boy!I would really like to know, what the vocal pitch of them is intended by Mozart. The NMA list for each of them "Sopran" but here in this Article they are listed as treble, alto and mezzo. What is the source of this? The "Kritische Bericht" dont say a word about this, nor the Preface of the Edition of 1970. please tell me! Nolispy —Preceding undated comment added 12:23, 5 January 2010 (UTC). 82.113.121.216 (talk) 15:18, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

I don't know where to find the source of this, but in the first performance the First Boy was a 12-year-old girl, and the other two were actual boys. The parts are referred to as "Knaben" throughout. Morag Kerr (talk) 11:54, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Damn, I see what you mean. The article names the original cast, and it's blindingly obvious that the Three Boys were all sung by children - a girl and two boys. But the voices are listed as treble, alto, mezzo-soprano. That last bit is nuts. These days all three parts are usually taken by unbroken treble boys' voices, though you could call the Third Boy a boy alto if you liked, and this is faithful to the original intention. The mid-20th-century habit of casting adult females and referring to them as "Spirits" or "Genii" is the aberration. Morag Kerr (talk) 12:01, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Hello, if you look at the article and its links you'll see that the role of the First Boy was premiered by Anna Schikaneder, who was about 26 at the time. This comes from the Grove Dictionary. Opus33 (talk) 15:47, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Just for the sake of accuracy: The three spirits are indeed identified as "three boys" or "three lads" in the original language ("Knabe" being old German for a boy). I suspect that the fact that one of them was played by a girl might have due to either of the following reasons: Lack of male child actors (for all we know, they might have even needed to recast this particular role and might have originally had a boy playing it), lack of a better role for the girl to play (it's not unheard of for family members of significant actors or even directors to get cast in a small role just for the sake of showing them off), or even just habits of the time. Whatever the reason may have been: Yes, this was a girln playing one of the three boys.

However, I'm not going to meddle with the article page, because really this is just a minor detail and not worth a war on semantics. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.203.102.81 (talk) 18:35, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

Rough draft of new "Sources" section

now installed at Libretto of The Magic Flute; too long to be part of this main article. I'll put a summary of it in the main article. Opus33 (talk) 16:43, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

Did the success of The Magic Flute "lift Mozart's spirits"?

I put in this phrase long ago, before I realized that there is a great deal of scholarly doubt concerning the traditional narrative of the end of Mozart's life (which posits gradually-mounting illness, poverty, fear, despair ...). The emerging modern alternative (e.g. Zaslaw, Biba, Halliwell, Wolff) is, more or less, that in 1791 Mozart was having a great year until he was suddenly felled by a horrible contagious disease that spread through Vienna. For discussion, see Death of Mozart. It will probably never be possible to sort out these two scenarios with certainty, but I've reworded the phrasing in this article on how Mozart reacted to the success of The Magic Flute to say simply that he was really pleased (that much seems certain). It seems unnecessarily speculative to suggest that Mozart's spirits in October 1791 were in need of lifting. Opus33 (talk) 16:43, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

I agree with the restraint in your sentiment, but the phrase "pleased to have authored such a hit." seems a bit anachronistic. Maybe returning to a word in the previous version of that sentence, "success", would be less jarring. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 03:09, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

Thanks, I fixed this. Opus33 (talk) 20:37, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

Moving material to talk page

I've moved the following material here.

---

"==The Magic Flute and Freemasonry=="

See also: Mozart and Freemasonry

The Magic Flute is noted for its prominent Masonic elements. Schikaneder and Mozart were Masons and lodge brothers, as was Ignaz Alberti, engraver and printer of the first libretto. The opera is also influenced by Enlightenment philosophy, and can be regarded as an allegory advocating enlightened absolutism. The Queen of the Night represents a dangerous form of obscurantism or, according to some, the anti-Masonic Roman Catholic Empress Maria Theresa, or, according to others, the contemporary Roman Catholic Church itself, which was also strongly anti-Masonic. Her antagonist Sarastro symbolises the enlightened sovereign who rules according to principles based on reason, wisdom, and nature. The story itself portrays the education of mankind, progressing from chaos (the serpent) through religious superstition (the Queen and Ladies) to rationalistic enlightenment (Sarastro and Priests), by means of trial (Tamino) and error (Papageno), ultimately to make "the Earth a heavenly kingdom, and mortals like the gods" ("Dann ist die Erd' ein Himmelreich, und Sterbliche den Göttern gleich"); this couplet is sung in the finales to both acts.

---

• It seems not very accurate. Mozart and Schikaneder were not lodge brothers, and in fact, Schikaneder was only a former Mason, having been suspended from his lodge in Regensburg (for moral turpitude).
• Quite a bit of it is unsourced.
• It goes over-the-top in endorsing not only the Masonic influence but the allegorical interpretations of the libretto, which (based on my reading, see below) I believe to be entirely conjectural.
• We now have (I believe) more balanced coverage of the hypothesis of Masonic influence in the satellite article Libretto of the Magic Flute.

For helpful discussion of the "overselling" of the Masonic hypothesis, with particularly critical discussion of the allegorical interpretations, see Buch, David J. (2004) Die Zauberflöte, masonic opera, and other fairy tales. Acta Musicologica 76:193-219. Available on line at [6]. Also, for a very revealing review suggesting that the primary originator of the Masonic-allegory theory, Jacques Chailley, was just an incredibly sloppy scholar, see [7]. Opus33 (talk) 20:37, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

An article about The Magic Flute without a section on Freemasonry is crazy. If you want to say that some writers claim that the Masonic allegory is exaggerated, I suggest adding a sentence to that effect, and maybe softening the tone of the Freemasonry section, but the overwhelming majority of musicologists and historians agree with the Masonic interpretation; it's a consensus position, as your article by David J. Buch from Acta Musicologica acknowledges, even while claiming that the consensus position is wrong. HandsomeMrToad (talk) 10:57, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

UPDATE I have restored the Freemasonry section to the article, but I have added a line saying that some scholars say that the Masonic influences are exaggerated, using your article by David J. Buch as a source. HandsomeMrToad (talk) 11:27, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

The separate article Libretto of The Magic Flute does an excellent job of treating these issues. I agree with Opus33 that it would be better to confine the discussion to that article and just include a cross-reference here. The thing is, once you start discussing themes and influences, you really have to grapple with the prominent and vicious misogyny. Otherwise that becomes a glaring omission. For now, I have taken a more conservative course: left the Freemasonry material in place but renamed the section to the more general "Themes" (which is at a better level of abstraction for a main heading); added a 'Main' hatnote directing readers to the libretto article (ie, explicitly treating this section as a summary of the libretto article); and added a couple of sentences mentioning misogyny and racism. Gould363 (talk) 04:34, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

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Two Armed Men's anthem

The article currently says:

Two men in armor lead in Tamino. They recite one of the formal creeds of Isis and Osiris, promising enlightenment to those who successfully overcome the fear of death ("Der, welcher wandert diese Strasse voll Beschwerden"). This recitation takes the musical form of a Baroque chorale prelude, to the tune of Martin Luther's hymn "Ach Gott, vom Himmel sieh darein" (Oh God, look down from heaven)

First of all, the article gives no source or reference for this claim. Now, I go to YouTube and search, and I get a very different melody listed as Luther's setting. See/hear, for instance, this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1HNLoIKcC8

And this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRpkaEdiNgI

Mozart appears to have cribbed the melody, not from Martin Luther, but from a setting by Bach, whose setting seems to be inspired by, but different from, Luther's. See/hear this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCUCzGRQYIs

And this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PR3GPxM6vzo

There are also other settings by Bach which don't seem to be the tune Mozart used, such as, for instance, this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0YLRovPF6A

Of course, all this is my own original research, which is why I'm only putting it here in the TALK page. But at very least, the article should include a source for the claim--apparently false--that the Two Armed Men's anthem is based on Luther's own music, and the claim should probably be changed to mention Bach, rather than Luther, as the original composer of the anthem's melody.

So I'm putting in an "Original Research" tag, and maybe I'll also change the unsourced incorrect mention of Luther as the composer, and replace it with an unsourced CORRECT mention of Bach, and try to come back later with a good source.

HandsomeMrToad (talk) 01:46, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

UPDATE: I've added a little bit of extra info, modified the text to say the Armed Men's anthem is INSPIRED BY Luther's music, and added a reference. I hope this is good now! HandsomeMrToad (talk) 02:01, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

Papageno effect

Papageno effect says:

It is named after a lovelorn character, Papageno, from the 18th-century opera The Magic Flute; he was contemplating suicide until other characters showed him a different way to resolve his problems.

According to this article:

They observe Pamina, who is contemplating suicide because she believes Tamino has abandoned her. The child-spirits restrain her and reassure her of Tamino's love.

Which is true? Is the Papageno effect misnamed or the plot summary misses that Papageno scene? --Error (talk) 10:47, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

Papageno contemplates hanging himself, hesitantly, in act 2, scene 8 (in the article's numbering). He is quickly dissuaded by the three child-spirits. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 12:28, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

Casting

In attemtping a rescue for On this day I've removed a couple of unreferenced paragraphs. They're a bit OR in tone but the Spiel- vs. Singfach observation is uncontroversial enough that a RS should be available somewhere in the literature (I note though that for myself and the QotN's I've known the extreme F's are a pleasure rather than a particular challenge).

In composing the opera, Mozart evidently kept in mind the skills of the singers intended for the premiere, which included both virtuoso and ordinary comic actors asked to sing for the occasion. Thus, the vocal lines for Papageno—sung by Schikaneder himself—and Monostatos (Johann Joseph Nouseul) are often stated first in the strings so the singer can find his pitch, and are frequently doubled by instruments. In contrast, Mozart's sister-in-law Josepha Hofer, who premiered the role of the Queen of the Night, evidently needed little such help: this role is famous for its difficulty. In ensembles, Mozart skillfully combined voices of different ability levels.

The vocal ranges of two of the original singers for whom Mozart tailored his music have posed challenges for many singers who have since recreated their roles. Both arias of the Queen of the Night, "O zittre nicht, mein lieber Sohn" and "Der Hölle Rache kocht in meinem Herzen" require high F₆, rare in opera. At the low end, the part of Sarastro, premiered by Franz Xaver Gerl, includes a conspicuous F₂ in a few locations.

Sparafucil (talk) 02:43, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

Finale. Scene 6?

Act 2 has 10 scenes. Currently Scene 6 is labeled "Finale". Is this an error? Mgnbar (talk) 19:53, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

Is it because Scenes 6-10 flow together with uninterrupted music? The article could make this clearer. Mgnbar (talk) 20:16, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

Synopsis

It is fine to have such detailed account of what happens on stage, but could we also have a real synopsis in the "synopsis" section, i.e. A brief outline or general view, as of a subject or written work; an abstract or a summary.. Brief, abstract, summary (emphasis mine).

I could do it but I dare not, this for sure has been done by recognized critics and I am not knowledgeable enough to have sources. 2A01:E0A:1DC:4570:787C:FFC7:3E05:E252 (talk) 19:57, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

This was raised already in 2014. I suggested then a brief summary: "Boy meets girl (x2); no-one dies (except a snake." That didn't fly. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 02:12, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

recording of "Der Hoelle Rache"

The recording used here is not so great. There are a lot of pitch problems with the singer's performance. Here is the same singer in a performance in which she does a substantially better job:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqZa2KYuNsU

Perhaps it should be substituted. 222.116.223.84 (talk) 16:01, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

Good idea, only: that is an external link. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:01, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

Not a good idea. Sandra Partridge's pronunciation of the 1st line alone is sub-standard in both recordings. The sound file in the article ought to be replaced with Rita Streich's File:W. A. Mozart - Die Zauberflöte - 18. Der Hölle Rache kocht in meinem Herzen (Ferenc Fricsay, 1953).ogg from the 1953/55 Fricsay recording. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 02:04, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Synopsis

I have made a number of changes to the Synopsis to bring it into line with the score. There is no suggestion there that the Three Boys are "child-spirits" - or that animals dance in the finale! (Perhaps that was done somewhere at a children's matinee.)

The 2013 DuQuette talk on Masonic influence seems authoritative and might be cited further. -- Hugh7 (talk) 09:11, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

References

Is "some musical numbers" really the best way to describe the section?

If not, what would a better fitting name be. It just personally doesn't feel encyclopedic enough to me the way it is now. Nowhere Box (talk) 22:20, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

A good question: what's on offer are "highlights". In featured opera articles these are sometimes discussed under Music La_traviata#Music or in the synopsis Don_Giovanni#Synopsis. For this opera a complete list would be more useful as with L'incoronazione di Poppea#List of musical items, The_Bartered_Bride#List_of_musical_numbers The_Marriage_of_Figaro#Musical_numbers. An example using both is Carmen#Music and Carmen#Musical numbers. Sparafucil (talk) 22:50, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

I've added the missing numbers. Feel free to improve. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 02:48, 30 December 2023 (UTC)