Talk:The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky the 3rd

Requested move 8 April 2015

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Not moved; there is no consensus for this proposal. bd2412 T 00:42, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky Third Chapter → The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky The 3rd – "The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky Third Chapter" is an inaccurate translation of the original Japanese title "Sora no Kiseki the 3rd". As seen here, http://www.rpgamer.com/features/2013/interviews/xseedfall2013int1.html , RPG Gamer's Editor-in-Chief refers to the game as "Trails in the Sky The 3rd" while interviewing Ken Berry, XSEED Games' Executive Vice President. Sbs260 (talk) 15:12, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

• Oppose - per WP:COMMONNAME. Third Chapter has over 8 million hits on a Google search. The 3rd has less than a million. Either are acceptable, and one should definitely redirect to the other, but Third Chapter seems to be more commonly used, and that how Wikipedia names it's articles. Sergecross73 msg me 00:05, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose per Sergecross. "Inaccurate translation" is not a winning argument; usage is what matters. There are lots of dippy subtitles in English in Japanese versions that get localized into something different or otherwise dropped in actually English-speaking regions. Also I wouldn't overplay RPGamer's reliability here; it's one step above a fansite, and a passing mention regardless. SnowFire (talk) 02:26, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 2 December 2015

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Moved as proposed. Although there does not appear to be an "official" name, it appears that "the 3rd" is closer to being the correct name than the current name. Note that "the" should not be capitalized in this circumstance. bd2412 T 15:06, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky Third Chapter → The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky The 3rd – The title difference is intentional. The game's title was changed to "The 3rd" because the game is not a direct continuation of the story of the previous games but rather a new storyline featuring the same characters and setting with Kevin Graham as the protagonist instead of Estelle Bright. It's very clear that Falcom intended the difference regardless of what mistakes other parties might make even when enough people make that mistake to cause Google searches to return more hits for the mistaken title; additionally, Xseed refers to it as "The 3rd." An example of that can be found on their localization blog here.. Leaving the title on this page as "Third Chapter" is misleading and can lead to damaging the sales of the series by causing misunderstandings. Many people have been confused by the series and believe that The 3rd is a direct continuation of the story of FC and SC and have avoided the game because of that misunderstanding caused by sites naming the title incorrectly. See this Steam forum discussion page for one example of this. Finally, the Japanese Wikipedia article for the series lists the game's title as "The 3rd"; nowhere does it mention "Third Chapter" or TC. I don't see why the English article should be any different simply because a large number of English speakers incorrectly believe the title to be different. 24.156.56.155 (talk) 05:15, 2 December 2015 (UTC) Relisted. Jenks24 (talk) 15:14, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

— 24.156.56.155 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

• Support <per Fallacy of Appealing to Majority Based on the Xseed's localization blog written by Brittany Avery, editor for Trails in the Sky FC and SC's English localization, Nihon Falcom's English wikipedia page , Eiyuu Densetsu: Sora no Kiseki the 3rd is officially referred to by Xseed as The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky the 3rd. 8 million hits on Google for Third Chapter does not make this title true, unless Wikipedia allows for naming incorrect titles solely based on popularity and widespread misconception. > Dahuuundge (talk) 05:35, 2 December 2015 (UTC) — Dahuuundge (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
• Comment As far as I know, there is no official name for this game in English. In fact, it has not been confirmed that it will be localised. I would personally suggest to move it to its official Japanese name which is The Legend of Heroes: Sora no Kiseki the 3rd until localisation is confirmed with an official or tentative name (both Eiyuu Densetsu and The Legend of Heroes are used in Japanese titles). Reference by XSEED doesn't confirm its localisation name. They also referred to many other unlocalised games. The series is not owned by XSEED even though they are the current main localiser; other publishers localised LoH games previously. Between the English name options, I would prefer The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky the 3rd. --MK (talk) 06:20, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
• Comment As the original request submitter, I agree with the above. "Sora no Kiseki The 3rd" would be an acceptable alternative as well, and technically more accurate. Wikipedia seems insistent on translated titles for Japanese works even without an official name, but if an untranslated title is acceptable then I would prefer "Sora no Kiseki The 3rd" as well. However, I am not entirely sure how to change my request; if anyone more experience with Wiki coding knows how and has the authority, I would appreciate the change (perhaps a suggestion for multiple titles as well, or a request for title discussion?) as I do not feel comfortable changing it without feeling like I'll break something. Thanks. 24.156.56.155 (talk) 06:26, 2 December 2015 (UTC) — 24.156.56.155 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
• Reply I am in favor of either the official tentative English title "The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky the 3rd" or using the original Japanese title "The Legend of Heroes: Sora no Kiseki the 3rd." As of right now Xseed has the rights to release the game to the West, so there is truth in naming the title after their naming convention, whether tentative or final. Perhaps (Tentative) can be added to "The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky the 3rd" to indicate this is not the final official English title yet? Xseed has not refer to this game as Third Chapter in their blogs, so the current Wikipedia title is invalid per fallacy of appealing to majority. Dahuuundge (talk) 06:38, 2 December 2015 (UTC) — Dahuuundge (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
• Support as the naming "the 3rd" rather than "Third Chapter" is intentional and relates to the game's place in the setting lore. Incorrect names should not be preserved merely because they are still in use. If comprehensiveness is desired, one can note that the game is known by "Third Chapter" among some fans. Also agree with above that either the Japanese or English title would work as long as it contains "the 3rd".— Preceding unsigned comment added by Glenn Magus Harvey (talk • contribs)
• Oppose - per the last RFC on this, directly above. We go by WP:COMMONNAME, not WP:OFFICIALNAME. WP:USEENGLISH has us use English names over Japanese as well. Sergecross73 msg me 13:26, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support I can't verify the claim that "Third Chapter" is more widespread than "3rd." Google searches show the opposite result. The previous request to move was made before XSEED started officially talking about the game. Per their blog, they fix terminology for some other games in the series, such as Zero no Kiseki and Ao no Kiseki being named Trails to Zero and Trails to Azure. This terminology has been seen in news since then, so I think we can trust that blog, which refers to the game as "3rd." That said, there's the problem of consistency in naming for the series. This is a non-issue, as such consistency never existed. The names "First Chapter" and "Second Chapter" are exclusive for the first two Sora games. The Crossbell games are named Zero and Ao, with not a single reference to first and second chapters. The next games are Sen no Kiseki and Sen no Kiseki II, using again a different naming scheme. Third Chapter/3rd fits within the Sora games, but it is not as a direct sequel to SC as that one is to FC. The change in terminology reflects that. Field14 (talk) 17:59, 2 December 2015 (UTC) — Field14 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

• While most of that isn't relevant to how Wikipedia names articles, you are right about the Google search test part. Doing it now, 6 months later, its basically split half way, Third Chapter at 306K hits, and the 3rd at 340K hits. In the meantime, Trails in the Sky Second Chapter has released in English for the first time, so perhaps this affected what names are used up there. Seems like either English name would be usable, though switching it to its Japanese name, as others above have suggested, still isn't recommended per WP:USEENGLISH. Sergecross73 msg me 20:22, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

• You have to also consider that the vast majority of people mistakenly believing the name is "Third Chapter" were likely misled by Wikipedia's intentionally misinformational title for the article, which is why the name change was suggested. Again, intentionally naming an article incorrectly is not what the WP:COMMONNAME rule is there for; there is a reason the article for samurai sword redirects to Katana and throwing star redirects to shuriken rather than vice-versa. There is even a clause about this on the page for the common name rule: " Ambiguous[6] or inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined in reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources." 24.156.56.155 (talk) 20:56, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

• Please remember to assume good faith. The editor who created this article has made very few edits and never really gave any indication of "intentionally trying to misinform anyone". The last proposal failed because, at the time, Third Chapter was used over 8x as frequently, and it was a simple case of following clear-cut COMMONNAME, not any bizarre concentrated effort to "misinform", as you seem to think. Sergecross73 msg me 21:34, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

• I'm sorry if it came off that way, but I picked the word "misinformational" rather than "misleading" intentionally. It's obvious that this wasn't an intentional attempt to mislead people, but rather just an honest mistake. However, the incorrect information has caused misunderstanding and confusion, and lead to propagation of incorrect information. Also, it clearly wasn't a "clear-cut" COMMONNAME case, as it directly contradicts a clause of the COMMONNAME rule; additionally, "The 3rd" also fits with the other naming rules while "Third Chapter" does not. There is also the simple fix of having a redirect page for "Third Chapter." 24.156.56.155 (talk) 21:43, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

• If anything, I over to the phrase "intentionally misinformational" - that sounds like you're accusing people of knowingly spreading lies or trying to deceive others or something, which is both bizarre and ludicrous. What would someone's endgame be with such an agenda? Also, the line in COMMONNAME you cite is both vague and subjective, and could literally be applied to virtually any good example of a time to use COMMONNAME to wrongfully use OFFICIALNAME wrongfully. Using Bill Clinton instead of his legal name William Clinton is one of the best examples of when we use COMMONNAME, but someone could just as easily twist things to say "Nope, that inaccurate to his birth certificate. It's obviously against the intentions of his creators. Etc etc" that you're trying spin here too. Sergecross73 msg me 01:33, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
• Intentional as in it was changed from its original correct title as listed on the Falcom page. Your argument about Bill Clinton is fallacious because he refers to himself as Bill Clinton quite often. Neither Falcom nor Xseed ever refer to the game as "Third Chapter" in any capacity. If a large number of people began calling Bill Clinton "Blowjob Man," would the article for Bill Clinton be renamed to "Blowjob Man"? 24.156.56.155 (talk) 02:27, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

• I agree that using Japanese names for this wouldn't be recommended. I've already made my point about the nature of the game as a sequel, so I'll try not to repeat myself too much, but I do think that using the distinct "3rd" is important, as most English speakers can't have direct access to the game, so they may get a wrong impression about this aspect. This article is really incomplete at this point, with some imprecise statements, so I approve of everything that may help clear some misunderstandings. The title change would be a short term solution, but a solution nonetheless. Now I'll go a little bit on a tangent (an important one for futures edits on this and other articles), but the body of the article itself supports this kind of misunderstanding. The section "Development" states that The Legend of Heroes VI was split into three games. This is incorrect, per the same source it cites. From the first materials on these games (late 90's) it can be deduced that First Chapter and Second Chapter were meant to to be a single game, The Legend of Heroes VI. (There may be also some Japanese interviews supporting this.) The third game was never a part of this split and nowhere in the source this is stated. This is a completely new game that started its development cycle after the conclusion of First and Second Chapters' cycle. In fact, it was born due to early Zero no Kiseki's development. Another imprecise statement is from the opening paragraph of the article. It's very risky to talk about "ends" and "last games" with this series. This game can indeed be thought of as an epilogue to the Trails in the Sky story, but it also introduces a lot of threads that follow into the Crossbell Games (Zero and Ao) and Cold Steel games. Therefore, while it is indeed the last game in the Trails in the Sky trilogy, it is far from being the last game in the series it started. So we get to my main point: we need an article for the 軌跡シリーズ (lit. Trails series). You have more experience to say how we should go with this, either as a section on the The Legend of Heroes, something that unifies all the games in the series (would pose some problems, as the series is always increasing), or something completely new. This is becoming important, as more games in the series are being released in English. I could help doing this, but, contrasting with the title change solution, this would be the long term one. And finally, I would like to bring up a lesser issue with the name of the article. This is based on anecdotal evidence, but I've seen people getting confused when talking to others who have played the games in Japanese and not being able to find themselves information on the third one, probably due to differences in terminology. This shouldn't happen, at least while the game doesn't have an official name. Field14 (talk) 03:51, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Feel free to fix up any issues in the article. It was created rather sloppily, nominated for deletion because it looked so bad, and then just narrowly kept when I hastily fixed it up and expanded enough to avoid deletion. Neither I or anyone else has come along to clean it up further since. So by all means, jump in. That being said, I'd strongly advise against a Trails series article. I'm almost certain it would be deleted for being redundant, as we've already got a Legend of Heroes series article and a Trails on the Sky series article. I'd recommend expanding the LOH page about it. Outside of the chart I created to keep all these crazy names straight, there's not much there. Plenty of room for you to expand there. Just try to keep it to a level that your average non-fan can understand. So many of the Trails articles, and obscure JRPGs in general, are written with so much jargon and in-universe lore that it makes no sense to outsiders, and it just gets trimmed way back down, because Wikipedia aims to write for your average joe, not your hardcore otaku. Sergecross73 msg me 04:32, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

• Support "Trails in the Sky the 3rd" per Wp:UCN and Wp:USEENGLISH; 128 GNews hits [1] vs. 52 for "Sora no Kiseki the 3rd" [2] and just 7 for the erroneous "Trails in the Sky Third Chapter" [3]. Regular old Google is mostly useless for pop culture topics as it is dominated by unreliable sources like webforums and blogs; Wp:UCN directs us to look at "the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources". 210.6.254.106 (talk) 02:55, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
  • And in any case, in a regular Google search, "Trails in the Sky Third Chapter" gets only 943 hits [4], against more than 10,000 (i.e. ~11x as many) for "Trails in the Sky the 3rd" [5]; the claims above of "8 million hits" for "Trails in the Sky Third Chapter" seem to be based on an unquoted search (in which Google will find all sorts of totally unrelated phrases which it mistakenly thinks are synonyms). 210.6.254.106 (talk) 03:17, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
    • Yes, as has already been covered, the 8 million figure was 6+ months ago, and has since changed. Sergecross73 msg me 03:45, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

References

• Weak Oppose again for same reasons as above. Where are supporters getting the idea that Third Chapter is "erroneous"? There is no official localization. If you are truly set on avoiding 'errors', then the only valid move is to the 'correct' Sora no Kiseki The 3rd, except that rams into WP:USEENGLISH. If you are okay with using an English title anyway, then the only valid test is WP:COMMONNAME, at least until there's an official localization. And as Serge noted, the traditional English title has in fact been "Third Chapter" in keeping with First Chapter & Second Chapter. Now, the XSEED blog is a very good source, so it might be possible that they were declaring intent to localize as "The 3rd" if it ever came out stateside? Or maybe Chavez was just referring to it by its current Japanese name. Hard to say. Certainly it's possible that XSeed could pull the English-speaking community interested in Trails toward "The 3rd", but I'm not super-convinced by the hits it's happened just yet. As for why the Google hits are different now than during the previous move request, it's surely related to news of the Vita release of Evolution (the remake / upgrade) in Japan, which will of course use the Japanese title. SnowFire (talk) 01:53, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Capitalization of "the"

See User_talk:BD2412#Trails_in_the_Sky_move. I think this should be moved to "The 3rd" since "Trails in the Sky" is the series, and "First Chapter / Second Chapter / {Third Chapter or The 3rd}" is the subtitle. (Sub-sub-title, since "Legend of Heroes" is still technically in the front?). WP:NCCAPS says we should capitalize The if it's a subtitle, and use lower-case if it isn't. Any thoughts? SnowFire (talk) 05:02, 25 December 2015 (UTC)

• How can we tell if it's a subtitle? I note that the cover image on the page does not capitalize "the". bd2412 T 16:51, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

• Very, very belated response (I think I half-wrote this, but then forgot to post it): It's obviously a subtitle, that's not under dispute... see Trails in the Sky (series). That said, it might be a subtitle that in fact doesn't capitalize "the". The problem is that the very best *English* source for using the 3rd, XSeed's blog above, just uses "3rd", no the at all!

Some screenshots from the JP version are here: http://highee.egloos.com/m/979823 Note that the logo includes "TC" and "Third Chapter". However, the Windows bar uses "the 3rd", lowercase t. In short: it's a mess, all of "Third Chapter", "the 3rd", & "3rd" are attested to directly. SnowFire (talk) 07:54, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

• I'm reasonably confident that that's the Korean version, chief. Which does erroneously use TC unlike the Japanese version, but that's largely a moot point now that the game is officially releasing in English. The English logo [6], the tweet revealing said logo, and the press release announcing the game all agree on a lowercase t. [7] And... though not necessarily relevant to the immediate topic at hand, also on "the 3rd" over "Third Chapter", vindicating the people who wanted to move it years ago. Yaaay. 72.26.9.60 (talk) 10:49, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

• Yes yes, of course XSEED's new official release wins, so no complaint about "the 3rd" now.

Also names can't be "erroneous", they are just names, and "Third Chapter" really was a name with legitimate sources. No need to rub it in with nonsense about "vindication", any more than people in 1998 claiming that FF7 "Aeris" should be called "Aerith" were vindicated when Square changed the official localization. Before there wasn't an official localization, now there is, yay. SnowFire (talk) 19:00, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

• Names very much can be "erroneous", when there are no reliable sources using that name. As an example, the previous move debate where the "legitimate sources" with the name "Third Chapter" were a non-quotated google search.