Talk:The Betrothed (Manzoni novel)/Archive 1

Archive 1

Collaboration

I seem to be the first here. I'll start writing a plot outline, and see what information I can add to fill out the template. Anybody else have plans? Xanthoxyl (talk) 04:47, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

As an old teacher of Italian literature, maybe I can offer some help. I would like to, but I am not very sure of my English.--Broletto (talk) 08:56, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Looking at what people contend with on this page should reassure you. Xanthoxyl (talk) 12:56, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

"The Betrothed was inspired by Walter Scott's Ivanhoe":?

It seems a statement typical of english-speaking people, somewhat ignorant: whereby ye diminish the peculiarity of the great italian writer setting forth an overdone dependence upon the great scottish one (whom ye know better, of course). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.11.58.25 (talk) 07:49, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Agreed: quite typical. Extravagant claim: the two plots have no similarities at all. The dates of first publication are almost contemporary and it is difficult to believe that a translation of Scott's novel became available in northern Italy within useful time for Manzoni to write and publish the first edition of "Fermo e Lucia". The sentence should be either referenced (if a reference exists) or struck out. Contra-gian (talk) 11:12, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

That Manzoni was much influenced by Scott is not some typically Anglo distortion of the facts. It’s actually a commonplace of Italian studies of Manzoni. I see the Italian Wikpedia makes much the same claim: "La genesi esterna, invece, comprende tutte le letture e gli autori che hanno ispirato Manzoni. Tra le principali abbiamo l'Ivanhoe di Walter Scott da cui l'autore prende l'ispirazione per la tipologia del romanzo..." In fact it would be very surprising if Manzoni hadn’t read Scott, the most popular and influential novelist of the day, especially when he was himself preparing to write a historical novel, the genre which Scott is generally credited with having invented. His interest in Scott was shown (together with much else) by an interesting exhibition about 10 years ago, “Manzoni, scrittore e lettore europeo”, at the Biblioteca Braidense in Milan. If I had 35 euros I would buy the catalogue and quote from it. Instead the following quote from a website will have to do. It notes briefly the references to Scott in Manzoni’s letters and his eagerness to lay his hands on his novels, as well as mentioning his indebtedness to Scott: “Il nome di Scott si incontra varie volte nelle lettere e negli scritti teorici di Manzoni. Ricorre nel carteggio col Fauriel e nella corrispondenza con Gaetano Cattaneo, impegnato con altri amici del Manzoni nel lavoro d’équipe della prima stesura del romanzo. Da Brusuglio Manzoni chiede all’amico bibliotecario di fargli avere libri di Scott (“o l’Abbate, o il Monastero, o l’ Astrologo: qualche cosa per pietà”). Egli richiede pure, sempre nella versione francese, il Pirata e la Fiancée (cioè The Bride of Lammermoor, che nel titolo francese richiamava quello dei futuri Promessi Sposi). L’interesse del Manzoni per i romanzi scottiani (parallelo a quello per il Don Chisciotte e per i secentisti) cresce durante la scrittura del testo, e ciò dimostra che l’iniziale giudizio negativo sull’Ivanhoe (letto e riletto) era ormai mutato e il romanzo storico e popolare del celebre narratore scozzese forniva materia prima al “laboratorio” del Fermo e Lucia. (From http://www.internetculturale.it/directories/ViaggiNelTesto/manzoni/c16.html) Personally I would have thought Manzoni borrowed more from novels like Old Mortality or Heart of Midlothian than Ivanhoe, firstly because they’re much better and secondly because they focus on humble characters, like I Promessi Sposi. I have a suspicion (no doubt unworthy) that critics mention Ivanhoe because it’s readable and the only one they know, perhaps from having read it as children. As for the availability of Scott's novel, the first Italian translation came in 1822, but Manzoni could, of course, just as well have read it in French. A. Dumas wrote a play based on it, also in 1822, using the French translation. Anyone who really knows about Scott and Manzoni should tell us more Ettormo (talk) 12:37, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Quote?

What is the relevance of the quote that has been included in this article? It seems somewhat random to me. I think this article could also use some background as to the historical context in which the novel was written. --210.240.115.126 (talk) 00:07, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Don Rodrigo's bet with his cousin

I added the detail of the bet since it emerges as the main motivation for the action of Don Rodrigo (cfr. chapter 3, chapter 7 and chapter 11). The content of the bet is not explicitly stated in the account of Lucia, who has heard Don Rodrigo and Count Attilio talking about it (chapter 3), but it is clearly implied that it is a sexual intercourse with Lucia before her wedding. --Bg69 (talk) 21:01, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

"Significance"

I find this comment "Many Italians believe that the novel is not fully appreciated abroad. In Italy the novel is considered a true masterpiece of world literature and a basis for the modern Italian language [...]" incredibly thick and vaguely offensive as well. It seems that, practically, the only thing an English speaking reader can say about this novel is that those dim-witted Italians - incredibly - find it good. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.246.34.60 (talk) 12:25, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

That statement has a source, and I can colloquially tell you that it reflects the feeling among Italian language enthusiasts, but is not just directed at English readers, but also the Germans, French (specially so) and others. You will find that the French have similar feelings on similar artistic issues. Res gestae Treccani (talk) 19:43, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

Lucia

I am rather surprised reading that Lucia can be "egotistic and somehow cruel". Perhaps this refers to the night at the Innominato's castle, when she takes the vow of virginity to save herself, which of course will cause great sufferings to Renzo, and to her too. Anyway, a reader who does not fully know the book could form a strange idea of this character, reading the definition "egotistic and... cruel".--Pebbles (talk) 17:13, 21 December 2016 (UTC)