Talk:Survival horror/Archive 2

Haunted House, Atari 2600: The first "survival horror" game?

I added info on Haunted House for the 2600, which shares many of the gameplay elements found in what we'd later term "survival horror". Item management (you could only carry a couple at a time), item finding, inaccessible rooms that can only be opened with a key or finding another route, supernatural/paranormal "inhuman" monsters as enemies that are more powerful than the player/character, sense of foreboding (the maze is completely dark, and you have to use a match to see around you). Indeed, Haunted House takes much of it's gameplay cues from Adventure (also on 2600) and puts a horror spin to everything. As "survival horror" games, are, for the most part, action/adventure games with strong horror elements in terms of story and "experience" on the part of the player, then I think Haunted House being the "first" survival horror game is quite possibly a fact. I've provided a link in the article that points it all out.

Here it is, btw: Gamespy Haunted House article

--Therealspiffyone 17:01, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the addition, especially since you provided a link to cite. I compressed your edit into a single sentence because the article you linked to contains all the information and isn't really long enough to require summarizing. We used to have a bunch of notes about other games that appeared earlier (Uninvited, etc), but I think Haunted House predates them all, so it seems like a nice addition to the article. --waka 14:44, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Is Manhunt really a survival horror game?

I know that Manhunt has been compared with this genre, but should it really be included in the genre? To me, it seems to lack one important element, that of the supernatural. Typically, a survival horror game pits the player against undead. Some of the games that have been retroactively included in the genre (Sweet Home, Clock Tower) may not have zombies, but have a spooky mansion setting with other irrational or supernatural elements. I do see lots of parallels between Manhunt and survival horror, but do not think it should be included in the genre. — Graf Bobby 04:39, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Manhunt as sruvival horror?? Come on, I know the genre is teetering off the edge of atmosphere so as to include any lame-brain action game with more gore than usually included, but Manhunt is not and should not be considered a part of this genre. Whenever you find yourself pitted with categorizing a game under the wing of survival horror, always ask this question first: What makes the game horrific? Mairebleu 06:56, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

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I'm not sure I'd call Manhunt survival horror, but I wouldn't say with great certainty that it isn't. To claim horror requires elements of the unreal would be to claim that real life contains no acts of horror.

Ubersuntzu 05:52, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Likewise, the fact that the gameplay revolves so much around stealth and remaining unseen is a testament to the fact that it contains the "underpowered" aspect of survival horror, which the article itself states is the main requirement in regards to gameplay.

Because of this, I would think the requirement of supernatural elements is a superficial one written by someone with a certain degree of bias towards their preferred style of horror. The predominance of supernatural elements in horror games is likely due to the fact that tense gameplay often requires enemies that can take much more damage than real people can. Clearly Rockstar found a way around this by focusing gameplay on stealth.

Ubersuntzu 06:01, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

What about Dino Crisis and John Carpenter's The Thing (the video game)? Do only games about zombies count, and if so, what about Dead Rising? [unsigned]

Requested move: "Survival horror" to "Horror game"

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no consensus to move the page, per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 04:08, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

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At this point it would seem the horror genre of video games has more than outgrown the sole focus on survival horror. The current nature of the article is excluding a great many games that are clearly horror games, yet do not focus on the survival aspect, but do focus on the fear and suspense aspects of horror. In fact, the industry as a whole seems to going through just such a change of focus in regards to horror games. Due to this, I'm suggesting that the article split its coverage between both survival horror and action horror, and thus adopting the new title of Horror game.

Ubersuntzu 05:48, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose Survival horror does not encompass all horror games, never has, so if an article is wanted discussing all horror video games then that article should be created. Survival Horror is a separate subject and will remain so regardless of whether or not developers create any more games labelled as survival horror. QuagmireDog 13:52, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

  Survival horror games should not need to encompass all horror games for the page to acknowledge other aspects of the genre. Obviously horror games as a whole encompasses all survival horror games, which is all the change in title would imply. However, as you said, a new article with a larger scope is certainly another solution. Ubersuntzu 19:08, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Survival horror is the genre, and one a lot smaller than the seemingly random list suggests. Horror games in general are a theme, a large theme encompassing multiple genres. Survival horror is the only genre with horror as a specific aspect - there is no 'action horror' genre as of yet, just plenty of horror games in many different action genres. As a genre, Survival Horror should retain a separate article, regardless of whether or not anyone wants to write about horror in video games.

I'm sure there'd be a lot of interest in an article along the lines of Horror in video games, and I'd love to help with one at some point if you're up for it. But right now this article needs reconnecting with reality as the term has become little more than a whipping-boy for every game that even resembles horror, which is not what it's used for in most circles. The article is in danger of being drowned in original research. See the Resident Evil 4 discussion as an example - this article needs to be peeled back to the basics and rebuilding with the games which are recognized as SH. QuagmireDog 13:02, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose survival horror is not all horror games, if you want to have a horror games article, why don't you write one? 70.55.201.213 12:38, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose as there are many non-CVG horror games. I would not oppose a move to horror video game, although I find it likely that those making comments above would. Percy Snoodle 13:45, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose The article would benefit from being more focused and constrained, not made more general. A horror video game might be useful, but I suspect that the amount of horror game-related information that isn't covered on this page is fairly small. --waka 14:40, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

'Themes' section, genre examples text removed

I removed the following text from the themes of SH section:

" The genre is also arguably home to beat 'em ups (Nightmare Creatures, Grabbed by the Ghoulies), point-and-click adventures (Clock Tower, D), role playing games (Sweet Home), first-person shooters (Call of Cthulhu: Dark Corners of the Earth, Condemned). "

I believe what the text is actually trying to say is that survival horror's gameplay style resembles other genres depending on the game, which is great and backs up what is said earlier - survival horror is not limited to carbon copies of Resident Evil.

The problem is that it refers to survival horror being a theme among games belonging to different genres, rather than different gameplay styles belonging to survival horror as a genre. I'm also a little worried that some of these examples aren't really SH, particularly Grabbed by the Ghoulies. Any weak links like these are going to casue more work as the article wanders all over the place like a seagull with concussion.

If nobody else is interested, I'd like to explore the gameplay styles offered by these examples and break them down in the article (the same as the Resident Evil style ones are now). QuagmireDog 14:08, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

The intent of that section was to drive home the thesis of this paragraph: that survival horror is a genre defined by theme rather than by game mechanic, and is therefore flexible enough to encompass a large variety of game play styles. Agreed that the games sited are not the best, but I think something like that sentence should still be included. Survival Horror is, as far as I can tell, the only genre that can be easily defined this way, so I think that the article should make it a point to show that SH is not just Resident Evil. I am not tied to the text you removed, however, so if you can communicate this point some other way, that's cool with me. --waka 14:24, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

To be honest I'd envisioned having a quick tinker if nothing else and putting it back rather than just cutting altogether - sorry, I'm getting a little worried. How would you feel if I reworded it more explicitly, something like: "The survival horror genre contains titles which borrow heavily from gameplay styles associated with other genres, such as beat 'em ups, point-and-click adventures, role playing games and first-person shooters."

Would that be OK? In the longer term I'd hope to expand on the points, drive it home, in the short term it clearly draws a line between survival horror and other genres - hopefully making progress easier. QuagmireDog 15:05, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I think something like that would be OK. I sort of had the idea that rather than borrowing from other genres, Survival Horror is sort of a superset of genres, linking games with otherwise unrelated game play mechanics together under the theme of horror and isolation. Resident Evil 4 and Clock Tower, for example, have very little in common mechanically (other than they are both third-person), but both are classifiable as survival horror. As long as that point is made, the actually nitty-gritty of the text is less important to me. --waka 21:45, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Talk page archived, list of 'further examples' (><) cut and pasted from article.

• I've archived the talk page using the cut-and-paste method, leaving the last three discussions which may still be active.
• After what seems to be a lot of previous discussion, I've cut the 'list of further examples' and pasted it here. 'See Also' is the same thing, except it contains links to actual SH games and the most obvious examples, likewise the History of SH does contain examples and will contain many more as time progresses. The examples left on the list could (potentially) be good for the history section, but leaving it there does nothing except provide a rubbish bin for passersby to chuck random wikilinks into. QuagmireDog 13:14, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Awesome! --waka 15:07, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

I've removed the list as it's doing nothing except clutter the page, the survival horror game category will suffice if more titles need to be pulled out for the article (though I doubt it, we need more sources not more game examples). QuagmireDog 22:20, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

More 'Alone in the Dark' prominency in the 'History' Section

I've added some more information about the similarities of Resident Evil and Alone in the Dark. I think one of the main misconceptions of the genre is that every single element in the first RE was an outstanding act of serendipity, when actually most of them were introduced in AitD. Obviousy, placing Sweet Home as the spiritual predecesor is much more romantic, but the connection with Infogrames' game is too obvious to ignore.

Looks good. You could source that with this link if you wanted, or I will if I get a free moment. --waka 21:05, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Wolfenstein 3D was released around the same time as Alone in the Dark and had all the same features and feel, as defined at the beginning of this article (rationing of ammo, unlock new paths, etc). The second chapter ("episode") even features zombies with machine guns implanted into their chests. Even though "Wolf3D" is overall hardly a horror game in theme and appearance, it still had the same feel as a survival horror game according to the definition given in this article.

The consideration of other influential titles such as this opens up a broader problem in that 'Survival Horror', as defined in the beginning of the article, actually ecompasses a wider scope of gameplay that stretches beyond horror-based themes. I propose that the definition of 'Survival Horror' be edited or re-written to; A) Reference horror-themed games specifically, regardless of gameplay, or; B) Encompass other non-horror-themed games with similar gameplay, or at least acknowledge the similarity in gameplay.

Blue

Hello. A quarter of the page is blue. Regards 85.64.125.211 00:12, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Another image?

Looks like we've lost our picture... again. Anybody got another image? Gamer Junkie 08:03, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

I'd just nab one of the existing Silent Hill or Resident Evil gameplay shots and add an additional fair use rationale to it.Someone another 05:16, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

I'd say a Resident Evil image would be the most un-controversial choice. Ideally of the original.--SeizureDog 11:36, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. I'll see if I can grab one from Capcom's Resident Evil site or something. I seriously doubt they'd have any objection. Not to mention they pretty much coined the term in '96 with the release of the first RE game. Maybe that should fit into the image description? "Resident Evil. The first "survival horror"." I know that there's several games that came before it that would fit the genre, but none were ever marketed as such. Also, I don't know about everybody else, but when somebody says "survival horror", the first thing that always comes to mind is: "Guy's a maniac! Why'd he bite me?!". That's case closed as far as I'm concerned. Gamer Junkie ^{T / C} 13:49, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Haunted house atari 2600.JPG

Image:Haunted house atari 2600.JPG is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 23:35, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Does it have to be supernatural?

"undead or otherwise supernatural enemies" becuase lots of survival horror games do not have supernatural enemies for example in the Penumbra games the enemies are merely infected with an (extraterrestrial) virus. Jamhaw (talk) 22:24, 11 March 2008 (UTC)jamhaw

Doesn't that qualify as a supernatural/sci-fi theme? Gamer Junkie ^{T / C} 07:38, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

I see that it could be supernatural and be sci-fi. The way the survival horror differ from sci-fi, is by putting that little bit supernatural and bringing an explanation on how it happened. sci-fi gives you a reason that go's with the game, an you dont understand stand it. The supernatural effect in the survival horror is really what makes it scary, if it was humans and they had tried to kill you it would be a regualar war game and possibly another first person shooter.

--Naru-chu 15:36, 28 February 2009 (UTC) Naru-chu 9:35 Saturday February 28, 2009 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Naru-chu12 (talk • contribs)

Apparently, an upcoming game, Six Days in Fallujah, is attempting to make a survival horror game without resorting to the supernatural or science fiction, depicting the psychological horrors of urban combat in the titular week-long battle in Operation Iraqi Freedom.Dibol (talk) 20:01, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Please explain why this game A) Is more notable than dozens of other released and yet-to-be-released games, and B) why it's unreleased yet belongs in the history section? Geoff B (talk) 20:33, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Geoff B, in that the developers/publishers themselves have stated the game is a survival horror. To use that as the basis to give the game a whole paragraph in the history of the genre makes it "unduly self-serving" (see WP:SPS) in this context. bridies (talk) 20:38, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Yep, I also agree that this would be WP:UNDUEly self-serving. For exceptional claims like this, we generally need more reliable sources than the developer themselves. But more importantly, this is not an article about that game... it's about the genre as a whole, and we don't go into detail about every single game in the genre. Randomran (talk) 20:44, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

I did not mean to go against the grain nor become self-serving regarding an unreleased game, and at the time, it seemed notable enough that this particular game while labeled as a survival horror game did not fit the "traditional attributes" of a survival horror game. As it is, only Gamepro managed to cover this game, and more info will come eventually. Just to make everyone happy, I'll leave this alone until more news regarding the game arrives in the upcoming months.Dibol (talk) 20:59, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

I think that's pretty fair. If this really catches on as an unconventional survival horror game, then we'll definitely see more references that talk about it. And that will give us an idea of how important this game is or not, and how much coverage to give it. Randomran (talk) 21:02, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Doom (video game), released in 1993, most definitely had a survival horror theme (albeit sci-fi horror) and is widely regarded as one of the most influential video games in history, yet it is hardly mentioned at all in this article! The gameplay of Doom matches the definition in this article, particularly in a comparative sense that the player is always against a greater force and must rely on means other than firepower to overcome obstacles. I propose that Doom (video game) be thoroughly referenced in this article, considering it's heavy survival sci-fi horror theme, popularity, and matching style of gameplay.

You need a source that says it's a survival horror. bridies (talk) 04:27, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

getting this article to GA status

Over the next few days, I plan on nominating this article for GA status. It's come a long way. In the meantime, I'd appreciate any comments about how to improve the prose, and if the article is comprehensive enough. Obviously we could talk about every survival horror game ever made, but let's err towards only titles that made a huge impact on the genre. Randomran (talk) 17:17, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Left4Dead brought the genre to co-op multiplayer experiences

This seems like a very odd statement, as Resident Evil Outbreak predates it but just wasn't the same hit. Perhaps the statement should be revised or removed? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.148.76.209 (talk) 06:12, 28 July 2009 (UTC)