Talk:Spiro Koleka/Archive 3

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Synthesis

This is not OK.--Zoupan 22:11, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

That part was in the article from long ago. Not done by Albanian editors, but by Greeks ones. I combined it into the above, but since you deemed it not ok, that's fine too.Resnjari (talk) 04:33, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

That part, where an "Albanian theory" (which in fact is a quote on his "patriotic" family background) precedes the established Greek one? No, that is not from the article long ago. Also, I thought "Please don't touch the article again" was done with. --Zoupan 17:18, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

Indeed this excuse is too problematic to be considered a real argument. The fact that someone speaks under a national agenda, propagading that references written only in his native language should be used in this article, sounds at least childish, if not clearly against the objectives of this project.Alexikoua (talk) 17:56, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

National agenda!!! Hahahahaha! Who are the two greeks writing gossip on an Albanian politicians wikipedia article? Who are the ones calling a city in another country as Greek? Who are the ones deleting information here as they please. Who are the ones who use unreliable hand-picked sources? Get yourselves a mirror gentlemen and look yourselves. Burridheut (talk) 18:10, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

Zoupan, you do not own the article nor are the sources who state he was Greek in origin the right sources. They have been proven to have inaccuracies (Please, do refute that Koleka was born in Vuno and prove beyond doubt that he was born in Himara town. I am very interested). They have claimed that Koleka was born in Himara town. The Albanian claim as you put it at least has his birthplace correct. As the article stands now, its ok. Until Albanian editors later locate some Albanian sources that are peer reviewed and identify Koleka's birthplace as Vuno and say he is Albanian that the Pettifer stuff can be taken to third party arbitration to have the sources looked and a decision can be made then. Until then its fine, if it stays the way it is, due to neutrality reasons. As for Alexikoua, once again i urge you to refrain from name calling and inflaming the situation, as they also go agianst Wikipedia policy and the spirit of the editing project. Calling me "childish", accusing me of having a "national agenda" and "propagading that references written only in his native language" does not in any way help the situation. Whatever your personal views are of me, my native language or Albanians in general (and this is becoming repetitive now, like Athenean used to do, keep them to yourself and desist from offending people. It is the content that is at issue not the person. You should know better considering you are an editor with "privileges") it needs to cease. The sources saying Koleka was Greek also say he is from Himara town. They have clearly made the assumption of ethnic identity based on them getting the place of birth wrong. Not sure if you have taken that into consideration, unless you can prove that Koleka was born in Himara town and not Vuno village, that then the sources should not be scrutinised further ? As for Albanian editors, this issue can be revisited in later times, just find peer reviewed material on the subject. Stop making a big issue out of something trivial.Resnjari (talk) 06:27, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

Spiro Koleka was born in Vuno.This is what the references says (except of these sources here).Elsie,the most prominent albanologist says Koleka was born in Himara.The family says the same thing.I don't know why do you want to play games.The sources that say Koleka was greek have questionable reliability so according to Wikipedia's rules they need to be deleted.Rolandi+ (talk) 09:02, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

@Resnjari: Stop making a big issue out of something trivial, you said it yourself. Failing (not wanting) to see Vuno as a part of Himara town/district/region/area (based on some "logic" of what "town" actually means, when the term is obviously indefinite, only to suit your POV), or interpreting history through contemporary circumstances is exactly that type of issue-making. It is still clear that there are no real arguments against. @Rolandi+: you have had problems with identifying reliable sources and understanding rules; with such comments you are not helping the discussion.--Zoupan 09:38, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

@Zoupan:My past doesn't change the rules of Wikipedia so don't try playing games.Rolandi+ (talk) 17:51, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

Zoupan, when one looks at map, Vuno is indicated as a separate settlement (you can call it a village or a town, that part does not matter). Yet like i said it it indicated as a separate settlement from Himara town. In some of the sources provided, they do say Himara town is his birthplace, do they not ? Himara is used by some to name the region. They have confused his birthplace and so on. Likei said this issue can be revisited in later months and years when peer received sources on the matter become published. It would need to have both Koleka's birthplace at the very least correct (unlike those based on the Pettifer source) and other details about his life also) The Communist era is only now become topic examined in Albanian society due to its past trauma. When those sources come to the fore, the best way to go about it would be that tha this goes to third party arbitration, Greek editors make their case, Albanian editors will make their case and the issue can very easily be resolved. Anyway, i am fine the way it is at the moment as long as no changes are done to that part of the article.Resnjari (talk) 05:04, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

@Resn. it appears you invent new rules and urge your co-nationals (you make this distinction contiuously) to look for "references written in Albanian" in order to finally get rid of Vickers&Pettifer. Can you explain where it's written that 1. only Albanian users should edit this article, 2. why only Albanian references should be used here? I'm afraid that it's you the one that inflames this discussion with such kind of national inspired approach.

On the other hand I suggest that "all" editors should follow wp:HISTRS in order to add new material. Also per HISTRS, there is no need to be only Albanian written material. For example V&P write in English, but even if it's in Greek, Serb or Japanese, it's also welcomed.Alexikoua (talk) 13:22, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

"it appears you invent new rules and urge your co-nationals". LOL ! You seem to forget that little episode of the 10% threshold matter you made up in an attempt to prevent peer reviewed material going into the Souliots article. I have said and will strongly stand by my comments, serious errors have been detected in Pettifer's work(and also those cited who have based their references upon him) that cannot be ignored (Gregoric even mixed up which Koleka she was writing about in her thesis). The issue is that Albanian editors need to find peer reviewed sources (Albanian or other) that have correct details about Koleka's life, by for one getting his birthplace correct. Like i said the dead cannot speak for themselves and one needs to be cautious about such matters.

"1. only Albanian users should edit this article, 2. why only Albanian references should be used here?" What are you on about. I have never ever said that this article is the preserve of Albanian editors or that they are the only ones who can edit it. Again don't accuse me. You are doing this repeatedly now Alexikoua on may pages. What i have said to them is to locate Albanian sources. I live in Melbourne and Albanian books are very hard to come by here, due to the very small Albanian community who are Tosks and hail mainly from the Prespa/Bitola region of Macedonia). My university has a sizable Greek section in the library because until a few years ago they used to have the biggest Greek programme amongst Melbourne Universities before it shrank due to some Greek academics having a financial dispute with a Melbourne Greek law firm in Oakleigh who funded them). So i can get my hands on Greek material, but not Albanian ones. Also there are Albanians like my self who can read Greek (i also can read Serbian and understand it. I can speak, read and write Macedonian very fluently and thus by extension Bulgarian too) so they can get across Greek material but how many of you Greek editors can read, speak (and i am not referring to the Arvanite ones who have barely any knowledge to that effect) or write in Albanian ? Seriously how many of you have that knowledge of Albanian so you can go and chase up Albanian sources and assist in the matter? So yes of course i am going to ask Albanian editors to do so, because they may be in Albania (or Kosovo) from where they are doing their edits and may have access to that type of material. Also why are Albanian sources important ? Because, Koleka was from Albania. For example if his family decides to write a biography of him for example, that source would take precedence over all others would it not considering that they knew him best ? Burridheut is in a unique position. During the summer, when everyone heads home to visit the village, he is more than likely to run into other Koleka's like himself and he can bring the issue up. In Albania, it is just assumed Spiro was Albanian and there has been no need to go into his identity because Koleka is from Vuno and Vuno is inhabited by Orthodox Albanians. Burridheut can make people aware of the Pettifer stuff in a way that no one here can. Its why i am a little bit taken aback, when the issue and solution is quite simple.Resnjari (talk) 05:04, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

I can only assume that you change the topic to the Souliotes because you are out of arguments in this article. By the way, I can't understand why you still pretent that I've invented the 10% threshold ("You seem to forget that little episode of the 10% threshold matter"?), since it's clearly stated in Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names): Relevant foreign language names (one used by at least 10% of sources in the English language... I'm afraid this can be easily considered disruptive since you insists and recycle this in several irrelevant talkpages such as this one. As Dr.K. instructed you, you are making clear distinctions between co-ethnics & rest of the editors.Alexikoua (talk) 07:11, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

LOL ! Yes that all good just for one important matter. The wikiedpia naming conventions are about geographical places not about a people, you know human beings. You, a editor with privileges applied a Wikipedia policy about geographical naming conventions to a people (trying to prevent the Albanian name of the Souliots going in). Wow talk about manipulation of a policy. It all on the Souliots talk page and yes from time to time i will bring it up when you resort to similar tactics like that. Just in case anyone missed it, Albanians are human beings, not a geographical eneity of some type. Best to avoid fringe theories Alexikoua or personal views about people. Its getting repetitive now. Resnjari (talk) 12:48, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Now about this topic, I have to agree with Zoupan in the case of wp:SYNTH: We know that Koleka was born in Vuno, a village located a few kms from Himara, which is predominantly Albanian-speaking -> we concluded that he is de-facto of Albanian ancestry? The most decent claim about a Albanian ancestry so far is based on this ground. However, that's nothing more than synth: Not everyone born in settlement X, who is predominantly Y-speaking, is necessary Y-speaking too, especially when we have plenty of material which specifically points to something else. For example I would find it too childish to claim that specific personalities from Dhermi & Pallasa (both predominantly Greek-speaking villages in Himara) are de-facto ethnic Greeks (lets say Petro Marko, Aleks Çaçi).Alexikoua (talk) 08:41, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

This not a matter of wp:SYNTH. Within those sources that state Koleka is Greek, they also say he was born in Himara town. An important distinction from Vuno village. Thus already it is an inaccuracy. That is beyond doubt due to geographical reasons and the authors should be able to notice that by looking at a map. Like i said the onus is on Greek editors to prove that Koleka is born in Himara town. "especially when we have plenty of material which specifically points to something else". All those sources, when examined within their content have based it one the Pettifer source. That has also been established here in this discussion unless you did not read any of it and only selectively focused on certain editors comments while omitting others. Again no name calling. Content is the issue, not the person. For me Petro Marko and Aleks Çaçi are actual ethnic Greeks who have identified themselves as Albanians. They are though of Greek heritage, i accept that. I have always said i am no nationalist. Dhermi, Palasa, Himara and one of the Qeparo's are ethnic Greek villages and that is fact. Resnjari (talk) 12:48, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

We can't dismiss multiple wp:rs due to the fact the he wasn't born in the municipal capital, but in a small village just a couple of kms away. The argument is far too weak. I can name numerous examples where the authors name the nearest regional capital as a place of a person's birth, instead of the adjacent village. Nevertheless Dimitropoulos states that Koleka was born in Vuno.Alexikoua (talk) 17:39, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

As in the case of Marko and Çaçi, per wp:rs there is nothing to support a non-Albanian ancestry. I agree that in some ooccasions personal experience may explain this in a different way, but so far the available material is clear on each case.Alexikoua (talk) 17:49, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Reason being is that these figures did not contribute to Greek minority life or effect the Greek community so they are not covered. When these figures are of consequence regarding events they are covered. For example Fan Noli is viewed in Pyrhus Ruchas' book Albanian's captives as a "Greek" who betrayed hellenism for the Albanian cause. And that view is what people from the Greek speaking parts of the Himara region view Koleka. Koleka choose the Albanian part of his identity. Its complicated and gets murky as Skoulidas explains in that article about Orthodox Albanian intellectuals of the 19th century and their complex and overlapping identity issues.Resnjari (talk) 11:15, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

Sure, what's on each mind is a great mystery. But simply the fact that someone was born in a specific place does not de facto make him belong to an ethnic group. About the above examples: I assume you offer your personal thoughts. About Ruchas I'm afraid he isnt rs.Alexikoua (talk) 20:26, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

If one dug closely into the sources about Marko and Çaçi, there will most likely be something about them being Greek. Marko was confronted about this in an interview with him that has gone into a book about him in Albanian (e.g. http://www.scribd.com/doc/245267365/Petro-Marko-Interviste-Me-Veteveten#scribd ). My comments are not based on personal views. As for "But simply the fact that someone was born in a specific place does not de facto make him belong to an ethnic group." I agree wholeheartedly, yet not all seem to adhere to such things on Wikipedia. For example the article Greek Muslims infers by its title that people who speak Greek identify as Greek when clearly in the academic material they consider themselves as Turks and stated as such in the article. Yet attempts to change the title to Greek speaking Muslims has not occurred to be in line with what people themselves have said. As for Ruchas what do you mean by the abbreviation "rs" (what does it stand for as i am not sure ?)Resnjari (talk) 11:44, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

Some additional details

Interesting enough, Dimitropoulos' thesis offers some additional detail about S.K.. In this fieldwork [[1]], he confirms V&P's about his priviledged status inside the minority. Moreover, worthy to add is that he was accused by other members of the minority for the forced relocations of various of his co-ethnics, as part of the tottalitarian regime's albanization process (p. 210-211).Alexikoua (talk) 16:05, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

Yes it is interesting, however since its Dimitropoulos a few things need clearing up.

p. 210-211: Οι Βόρειοι Υπεριώτες πρόσφυγες της Ελλάδας, συχνά κατηγορούν συμπατριώτες τους ως υπαίτιους για τους εκτοπισμούς. Ο Γιώργος (Γκόγκος) Νούσης από τον Βουνό της Χημιάρς και ο επίσης Χιμαραίος Σπύρος Κολέκας, κατηγορούνται την εμπλοκή τους σε πολλές αποφάσεις εκτοπισμών, συμπατριωτών τους. Οι εξόριστοι γράφονται στα δημοτολόγια τον νέων τόπων όπου υποχρεούνται να διαμείνουν, ως αυτόχθονες Αλβανοί, τους επιβάλλεται η απαγόρευση της ομιλίας στην ηθική τους γλώσσα κ.α.

Translation: The Northern Epiriotes refugees in Greece, often accuse their compatriots as perpetrators of the deportations. George (Gogo) Nushi from Vuno in Himara and also Himariot Spiro Koleka are accused in their involvement in many decisions displacements, of their compatriots. The exiles written to the registries of new sites where required to reside as indigenous Albanians, their imposed a ban on speaking the language ethics etc.

One i am curious to know by what Dimitropoulos means as Northern Epriots and compatriots in this context? Those people who stated those things, where they Orthodox Albanians or Orthodox Albanian speakers who call themselves Greeks or Northern Epirotes when in Greece. Or where they Greek speakers from the settlements of Dhermi, Himara, Palasa and one of the Qeparo's(who were persecuted under the communists) and see people from Vuno as such (need clarity here). I ask this because Dimitropoulos on page 13 states that:

P. 13 χωριά διαγλώσσα η χωριά που για διάφορος λόγους (εγκατάσταση επικών πιέσεις κ.α) επέλεξαν την επίσημη κρατική γλώσσα αλλά παραμένει ισχυρή στους κατοίκους τους η ελληνική εθνική συνείδηση (π.η. Βουνό)

Translation: "bilingual villages the villages for various reasons (installation epic pressures etc.) chose the official state language, but remains strong their residents the Greek national consciousness (e.g. Vuno).

Kallivretkis who has done real fieldwork on the demographic matter in southern Albania, alongside Nitisakos who was in Vuno and published in 2010 when Dimitropoulos was finishing his thesis, states that Vuno is a Orthodox Albanian village. Also Dimitropoulos who on page 13 uses a village list that double counts Greek villages (e.g. Biovizhde/Valovista, and places Apsalla in the wrong geographic place), manipulates a source which talks about religious conversion in the inline citation(and mentions nothing about a linguistic or ethnic identity shift) to allege that Albanian Muslim Cham villages in Albania were once "Greek" and confuses current day Orthodox Albanian villages in Albania as being Albanian Muslim ones (Sopik and Ciflik) and gives no footnote or source regarding the issue of the Albanian state "forcing people" to speak only Albanian in villages he cites, i am concerned with what definition "Northern Epriots" means here and by compatriots. Does he mean people who are generally Orthodox, as is considered in Greece regagardless of language or other identities or is he referring to an ethnic difference or something like that ? As your encounter with a Vuno resident Burridehut has shown not all see themselves as "Northern Epriots" or Greek and so on and as Nitsiakos has shown, people like from Vuno use the term very carefully and in the presence of Greeks while avoiding discussing their true identity (p.466).Resnjari (talk) 05:48, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

To sum up, Nitsiakos states that they self define as "Northern Epirotes" and as such they define themselves under the same term as the inhabitants of the nearby Greek speaking settlements. Under this context they can be considered compatriots. What's the point here is that Koleka was accused for taking part in a state sponsored policy of forced relocations, as part of the region's forced albanization policies.

These policies, as part of the tottalitarian government's programm are also described by Pettifer and Vickers, who by the way are considered clearly pro-Albanian in dealing with Albanian related topics [[2]]. For example Pettifer states: "In addition, many Greeks were forcibly removed from the minority zones to other parts of the country as a product of communist population policy, an important and constant element of which was to pre-empt ethnic sources of political dissent." [[3]] (p. 6).

Moreover, it's interesting enough that the regime rejected any trace of cultural & ethnic plurarism. Thus, someone who represents the official views of the "People's Republic of Albania" rejects also Koleka's Greek origin without taking into account any academic material. In the above paper it's also stated that (p.2):

while the outside world regarded the country as a grim, poverty-stricken gulag ruled by the world’s most hard-line communist regime, a European equivalent of North Korea under Kim Il Sung, the prevailing view nonetheless presupposed that rigid political uniformity implied the absence of cultural and ethnic diversity.

Needless to say that Koleka is considered Greek for a third time (p. 17 of the above paper, so it's hard to believe that's it's simply an error) Alexikoua (talk) 06:41, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

I accept the bulk of things stated above. Nonetheless i have never, ever denied that the communists targeted Greeks from ethnic Greek villages(Himara, Dhermi, Palasa and one of the Qeparo's) and resettled people from there and also some Greeks from the Greek minority zone to other parts of the country. Enver did not recognise these settlements as belonging to the minority zone: Dhermi, Palasa, Himara, one of the Qeparos, Zvernec and Narta and it is these villages that were subjected to Albanisation the same way as many an Albanian speaking settlement was subject to Hellenisation through church and schools in Greece. He also targeted Orthodox Macedonians of Albania's Prespa region and i hope you are aware of their plight as they suffered as Macedonians and were targeted. Yet, you say this as if somehow i am in denial about this. Not sure if you are aware though, the regime targeted Catholic Albanians and many northern Albanian Muslims also. Roughly two thirds of the population was at any given time over the duration of the regime incarcerated. Enver knocked down more than 1, 300 mosques of which only a near 300 have been built in recent times (Most Orthodox churches 300 knocked down have been rebuilt.) Truly a devastating tragedy to the Muslim community which it still has not recovered of which you would agree, right? So Greeks were not singled out. Its just how communism is, or the ideology of it as represented through Stalinism. The comparison with North Korea is more than applicable. I take great offense however when you wrote that "Thus, someone who represents the official views of the "People's Republic of Albania" rejects also Koleka's Greek origin without taking into account any academic material." Many of my relatives died in Albania opposing the regime and you insult their memory. I do not and will never advocate for a heinous regime and you equating it with me is very offensive. I seriously cannot believe you have written this. But then again why should be surprised. I have always taken academic material into account and of the highest order. It is you who often states POV first to any discussion(so much for good faith) before then grudgingly engaging with the material as was evident in the Albanian Chams page, the Souliots page and now in the Northern Epirus page. My query here was directly about what does Dimitropoulos mean when he uses the term Northern Epirotes in his work considering he has a multitude of issues on page 13 as i outlined. Who are these Northern Epirotes ? Are they Orthodox Albanian speakers, Greek speakers, are they from the Himara area or Greeks from the recognised Greek minority zone who are making these accusation regarding Koleka? Are they Muslim Albanians as Nitisakos has said that they use the term Northern Epirotes to get Greek papers (On the border. 2010. pp.313-314). Was Dimitropoulos taking with those people in Greece ? My questions do suffice here regarding the matter. As for page 17 that is the footnote to page 7. Now don't double count these things like Dimitropoulos has done. Resnjari (talk) 12:48, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

As you generally agree with what I've stated above, I assume everything is fine and settled. Actually by saying that "someone who represents the official views of the "People's Republic of Albania" rejects also Koleka's Greek origin without taking into account any academic material." (not vice versa) I'm in agreement with Pettifer who concludes that there was no way to accept the idea that ethnically and culturally heterogenous elements were part of the state. I really don't understand why you take it personal in this case, my comments were simply based on the available material. I appreciate your effort in this, but it has nothing to do with personal experience.Alexikoua (talk) 17:26, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

I said i only agree with some things. There are still certian questions left outstanding. As for other matters Alexikoua, the reason why i got offended was that in your comments you equated me with the communist regime of Enver Hoxha by me supposedly agreeing with its views and being a mouthpiece for it. When conversing with Albanian editors take more care when stating something of that nature. I say this because for say a generalised example separate to this like calling Muslims Turk in the Balkans is a common practice by non-Muslims, but those who are of that heritage, but are not ethnic Turks take great offense to that. My point is to always stick with the content and not to equate a editor with a regime's views or something like that. I also say this because one day in real life you may come across someone and say something like that to their face and the end results may not be to your liking. I always try in my utmost to take care with such things. As for the Koleka thing its fine how it is at the moment. In Albania, stuff is only now starting to be written on certain figures within the communist party. The matter on Koleka can be revisited in the future when appropriate material fitting Wikipedia guidelines becomes available. As it stands now its ok as it was what i was calling for anyway as the compromise position.Resnjari (talk) 11:09, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

You misinterpreted my statement since I was quite clear that this isn't a vice versa equation but a one way sequence: fact A (adapting views of the PRA) is followed by conclusion B. If you read my comments carefully I'm sure you will be not feel offended at all.Alexikoua (talk) 20:04, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

It's this bit that was offensive: "someone who represents the official views' of the "People's Republic of Albania" rejects also Koleka's Greek origin without taking into account any academic material. You are basically saying that i do not take into consideration academic material and that i advocate or hold views for the past communist regime of Albania. Today, few Albanians do and i am not one of them. Be careful about equating people with views of a regime or the regime itself. For example, Milosevic and his cronies did all sorts of horrible things in Kosovo. Am i now going to equate every Serb with that man. No, and it would be reprehensible for me do so. Would i eqaute all Greeks with the views of Golden Dawn regarding Albanians. No. Just saying to keep that in mind.Resnjari (talk) 11:28, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

Since our subject is a strong man in a tottalitarian regime, it's quite reasonable as you point that he is unpopular in modern Albania as well as among the Greek minority as well (the last part cited by Dimitropoulos).Alexikoua (talk) 21:18, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

I accept that. My questions where related as to who the Northern Epirotes that Dimitropoulos mentions are. Considering that Nitsiakos mentions that the term is used by a wide array of peoples in Southern Albania for various identity, or financial reasons, what does Dimitropoulos mean by that term. Are they Greek speakers (from the Himara area or other?), are the Orthodox Albanian speakers, are the Muslim Albanians who say they "Northern Epirotes"? Who does Dimitropoulos imply here, as Nitsiakos in his research has always made sure to point out when he sues the term regarding the people he talks to. Resnjari (talk) 05:43, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

Scientific analysis and historic/official data used by foreign authors when writing about S.K.

Hello I am back. I know a couple of you missed me. Has anyone found any proof of Spiro Koleka (meaning also the Koleka clan) to be Greek? If this is the case please share. Any unscientific claims by Pettifer or authors referring to him in their books' bibliographies are excluded. So far the problem is identified with Pettifer, so we put him aside and treat him and the authors pointing at him separately. To the Greek editors here, please use your own state archives to find where the Kolekas live in Greece and when did they live there. Or find their properties there, or some house, a single grave, a single piece of paper written in Greek by anyone of them. Or find when did they last leave from Greece please, or how many were/are they. I want to know. Find some church records (in Albania or Greece), get some proof so you can save face and make me shut up. How difficult can it be to find something Greek in this important man? How come all his children never left any Greek notes somewhere or are not part of some Greek facebook group? How come Spiro's daughter writes poetry books and articles in Albanian and not single one in modern Greek language? Is this family really ashamed to be Greek or is it just (*drumroll*) not greek! How about you Zoupan and Alexikoua for once be not so sure about yourselves. How about some critical thinking applied in this article? I challenge the scientific and historic foundation of your sources. Burridheut (talk) 20:28, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

So far the only scientific English-speaking material which can be verified is Pettifer and Vickers (the latter in one work). I believe you need an explanation about why he is "unscientific" (the Vuno/Himare trick is too weak: Vuno is a tiny village a couple of kms from the Himara munipical center, thus not all authors care to point to this small but beautiful settlement, but in general saying X was from Himara, makes the job for them). Also, I'm afraid you need a good explanation about this recent edits [[4]], which are clearly pov:

According to James Pettifer Koleka was born into an ethnic Greek family: why not Vickers? and why not also Dimitropoulos as explained in the above section? and it follows: "This is contradicting other authors such as": you didn't bother to mention who are the "other"? even Kondo (who is "one" author) is badly cited, already tagged, and doesn't provide any info about an Albanian ancestry.Alexikoua (talk) 23:21, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

@Burridheut:, you are from the Koleka family, when in Vuno make people in the family ware of this. It might make someone in the family do something baout this like write a biography of Spiro and even his daughter issue a statement or say something about the identity thing in public. Then you can use that to challenge Pettifer remaining in the article. At the moment as it stands, its its good as a compromise to the situation. These matter can be revisited any time into the future when such sources become available. It is by no means a closed matter, bt open ended. Otherwise you will get banned permanently and then you will not be able to edit at all, allowing other editors who disagree with you to do what they want at will. Don't disadvantage yourself in that way.Resnjari (talk) 11:09, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

Resnjari: where have you read that with personal declarations you can remove multiple wp:rs in wikipedia? Even if this happens there is no way to remove a mountain of evidence. I kindly suggest you fill a case at wp:ani, about how a declaration of this kind can exactly affect a wikipedia biography. I'm sure various experienced editors can give you directions about this and if there is any possibility to adjust or get rid of the part in question.Alexikoua (talk) 19:40, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

First of all, it has been shown that there are discrepancies and accuracy issues regarding Pettifer and those who have subsequently cited him to make their point about Koleka. With that noted, if and or when a biography of Koleka gets written, any personal declarations cited in such works or by his family will take precedence due to those sources especially if they have simple details such as his birthplace correct. It may be a minute point for you, but its a big deal to other editors regarding accuracy issues. Moreover, as Wikipedia has third party adjudication, each editor can then make their case and then outside parties can decide. Like i have said this issue can be revisited well into the future. It is by no means a closed matter.Resnjari (talk) 11:28, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

In the meanwhile the text about Himara being predominantly Greek is just provocative and unrelated to this article. I want that removed as it is just there to confuse and misinform the public. Predominantly means more than 50%. If this can be proven I will rest my case. Burridheut (talk) 18:48, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

I won't have problem to remove everything about demographics, including also the complicated self-identification of Vuno.Alexikoua (talk) 21:44, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

Absolutely not. Both bits about Vuno being Orthodox Albanian and located in a region that has a majority of Greeks stays due to neutrality reasons and that sources have given complicated views about Koleka. People in Dhermi, Palasa and on of the Qeparo's are ethnic Greeks. Greek has always been their mother tongue, they self identify as Greeks and the main reason why Enver did not want to recognise them as such is because their settlements are in a geo-strategic and sensitive area. Today those villages are big, bigger than the Orthodox Albanian ones (see Kallivretakis for numbers and Nitsiakos says the same of Albanian census numbers.) and as such make the region "predominantly Greek", but not Greek completely. Albanian editors need to have this in mind, due to there at the moment being no peer reviewed material provided regarding their removal of Pettifer. I future when such material becomes available, then in can be brought forth and most sensibly and best, taken to third party adjudication on Wikiepdia where everything then can be scrutinised. Untill then it should stay the way it is as it is neutral.Resnjari (talk) 05:51, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

@Alexikoua: The "poorly cited source" is Edi Rama,a member of Koleka family.Unfortunately he says clearly that Koleka family is from Mirdita.Spiro Koleka had also Mirditor origin as he was a member of Koleka family.If he was greek,he wasn't from his paternal grandfather who gave him the surname Koleka.Maybe he was from his mother or from his paternal grandmother.Rolandi+ (talk) 17:33, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

The text you insist to add (... "In fact Koleka family's origin is from Mirdita.", thus refuting all the existing material is in straight contradiction with your explanation... that he might be partly of non-Albanian origin. Moreover, when you cite something you need to include at least author, publisher, and in this case quote and translation.Alexikoua (talk) 20:18, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

Don't worry Alexikoua,I'll give you the author, publisher, and in this case quote and translation.It will help you so much!Rolandi+ (talk) 09:26, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

Also you need to change the text from "he is definitely of Albanian origin" to "person X claims that he is partly of Albanian origin". I assume you understand that the entire meaning changes that way.Alexikoua (talk) 21:44, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

@Alexikoua: Edi Rama doesn't say that Spiro Koleka was partly of Albanian origin.He says that Koleka family settled in Vuno coming from Mirdita.So the text will be: 1.During an interview Edi Rama explained that Koleka family's origin is from Mirdita and the surname "Koleka" derives from Kol and Leka.Rolandi+ (talk) 15:02, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

The problem with that is Edi does not say anything about Spiro Koleka. He just states that in a generalised sense regarding the Koleka family and his Mother. The Greek editors will challenge that and say something like is it the same' Koleka family ? And where does it say Spiro Koleka in the statements made by Edi? So your going to have a difficult time getting it in. As it stand at the moment its ok. Until more peer reviewed stuff becomes avialable that has correct details about Koleka's life then it can be brought here and most likely will need third part adjudication regarding removal of Pettiffer. Untiel that time its fine as it is. Resnjari (talk) 05:56, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

Edo Rama is the relative of Spiro Koleka and says that Koleka family settled in Vuno coming from Mirdita.No one can challenge it.Rolandi+ (talk) 15:13, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

Rolandi, for us of Albanian heritage yes we know Edi, this Spiro and the older Spiro are all from the Koleka family and they are Albanian. Thing is from a Greek editors perspective (view it from their angle or in other words put yourself in their "shoes") how would they challenge that. One they would say where did Edi cite this Spiro when he was talking about the Koleka family and two how can we be sure its the same Koleka's or that someone in the Koleka family did not marry a Greek from the nearby Greek speaking villages and so on. I say look at it from a Greek editors perspective (and world view regarding say Albanians and for example Islam, often derogatory but nonetheless) because then you know what they will challenge. I do this with all edits i have done when i have brought a source to the table and its ruffled a lot of feathers if you have seen some of the talk pages. Its also why my edits have been the most effective from Albanian editors in recent times because i always have that in mind when i use a source. How would a Serb or Greek challenge this. What issues are with the source (if there issues i don't use the source in the first place). That's why when i have brought a source for something contentious i have made sure for one that its anything but an Albanian (often more than not a Greek, anyway its more fun that way too as often their no becomes based their personal opinion than wikipedia policy. Its why many editors here are so fond of me. LOL). A more definite source regarding this matter will come into being (so just keep an eye out for it. Albanian editors have brought robust discussion here about what is wrong with Pettifer. But to take care of this matter, if and when other editors come across peer reviewed sources (Albanian for example and post 1992 importantly) from even the Koleka's themselves mentioning Sprio, the word Albanian and Vuno and so on in the one context then yes change/s can be made. We would probably need to go to third party arbitration for each side to set the case for it to happen. It wont be difficult in that instance as long as things stay civil. At the moment as it stands both the village birthplace sentence and the ethnicity section are fine as they are as they present all things and is neutral. Like i have said this matter is open ended due to academic sources only now in Albania (and outside as well) being written in depth on the communist era. All the best. Resnjari (talk) 00:18, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Separate Ethnicity-section

There is no need to separate ethnicity from the original body.--Zoupan 05:20, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Moreover, for simple chronological reasons this paragraph needs to be placed above the info about his life.Alexikoua (talk) 05:49, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

As done. @Rolandi+: be careful to claim consensus when there is none.--Zoupan 06:25, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

The ethnicity section was separated by some other users during ANI and no one wasn't against it.As for Edi Rama he doesn't claim,he explains as he is a member of Koleka family,he isn't a serb editor in Wikipedia.Rolandi+ (talk) 06:27, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

So this is how you explain why there should be a separate section?--Zoupan 06:41, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

As for the ethnicity section I don't have any preference.As for Edi Rama he didn't claim as he is a member of the family.Rolandi+ (talk) 06:42, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Actually neither "claim" nor "explain" seems neutral to me. Better to just say "stated". --T*U (talk) 06:55, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

@TU-nor: As there is no consensus about "claim" or "explain",the best choice is "stated".Rolandi+ (talk) 06:58, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

I am adding "said" and no one can say it's not neutral.Rolandi+ (talk) 08:50, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Since ethnicity is hot-topic for greek editors, it shall be separate not to disrupt the whole text. Burridheut (talk) 12:20, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

As one recalls, a separate section was created by a editor (PrinceSulaiman) who was not of either Albanian or Greek heritage regarding the matter as a neutral solution to the matter (when it went to dispute resolution)? Why are editors of Greek heritage now trying to undo a neutral solution to the matter ? A separate ethnicity section is required due to the contested nature of the topic from those who have no interest in this article and from a non Balkan background. Also Alexikoua explain properly why you deleted the Anastas source [5]? Why did you deem it "unscientific" (whatever that means)? Justify though Wikipedia policy the deletion or it will be restored. Otherwise one is to think that certain editors here are not behaving in good faith ! Resnjari (talk) 14:09, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

I'm not against a seperate origin section, but this section isn't big enough to warrant one. Moreover, per chronological sequence a paragraph about ogirins is always above the life of the subject itself. It's a simple chronological sequence that occurs in all biography articles (whether as seperate section or not).Alexikoua (talk) 22:39, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

@Resnjari: Why are editors of Greek heritage now trying to undo a "neutral" solution to the matter ? I assume you need a better argument than to label every non-coethnic editor. Also when a part is problematic and contains more than one tag, you don't have to wonder when this is removed. Nevertheless, it would be kind enough to address the problematic issues at least now, if you want this back to the article (by the way it was Burrit. who did the last copy-edit in this [[6]]) Alexikoua (talk) 22:55, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Alexikoua, the tag said that it needed clarification. There was nothing about verification. Thus not needing its deletion. A big difference. Just because a tag exists does not mean it needs to be deleted. Also you did not bring issues regarding the Anastas tribute article in here within the talk page. You decided to just go right ahead with that action of deletion. I assume you need a better argument than to label every non-coethnic editor. Lol ! I did so because you did that deletion without consultation. So my comment was more than warranted. Again you still have not provided what the "scientific" issues (your rationale for deleting the source) were with the Anastas article that also are in line with Wikipedia policy. Need to explain here, otherwise anything with a tag can be deleted. In case you have not noticed, i have always asked in the talk page about any further issues about a section with a tag from other editors before i then delete or make changes. Please consult before making unilateral decisions which may be interpreted as not being in good faith. I will also add that during the outside adjudication process non-Balkan editors kept the Anastas bit in and did not see the need to delete it also. Nevertheless, it would be kind enough to address the problematic issues at least now. You need to point out what are the issues so i can address them, i can not read your mind. As for Burridheut, we will get to that after we deal with your edit first which preceded his. Yours was one of the main changes after things were presumed to have been settled, so firstly we start off with your edit. Resnjari (talk) 00:31, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

To explain this with even more simple words the problematic part you are eager to restore was added by Burrit. [[7]] and you you need to support this version with serious arguments (I assume you understand that there is no quality in arguments that simply point to the nationality of the editors Why are editors of X heritage now trying to undo a "neutral" solution to the matter ?). The so-called neutral solution, which was by the fact a clear wp:ninja edit, was immetiately tagged and then removed after there was no explanation provided:

This is contradicting other authors (who?) such as Anastas Kondo, who writes that Koleka was born into a patriotic Albanian family.-ref-Kondo, Anastas (31 August 2001). “U nda nga jeta ish anëtari I shtabit të përgjithshëm të ushtrisë NÇL, shoku Spiro Koleka. [A former member of the Army General Staff of the National Liberation Front passed away, our friend Spiro Koleka]”. Kushtrim Brezash. Retrieved 8 August 2015. -ref- (dubious-discuss: where it's written that he is Albanian? not to mention that's a dead link now)

Actually the part after "this is contradicting" is followed by a completely wp:or part with a reference that does not support the text itself. Moreover "other authors" is plural & Kondo (who does not in fact support this) is one & single author.Alexikoua (talk) 18:34, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

If its about the article not mentioning outright that Koleka is Albanian, that is fine and should have been voiced earlier when that discussion was had so the wording in question could have been discussed. I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that you did things in good faith. Nonetheless the Anastas article is still more than warranted in the main Wikipedia article. Anastas Kondo a native of Vuno and an academic writes in the article that this Spiro Koleka was a relative of the other Spiro (Gogo) Koleka. In other Wikipedia articles, links to other family relatives of significance are mentioned. The Kondo article cannot be thus excluded. I will give the following passage from the article in Albanian and subsequent translation to make it simple to quote your words.

Albanian: Lindi në një familje me tradita të zjarrta patriotike. Një tjetër Spiro Koleka I fisit të tij, qe ministër i qeverisë së Tiranës më 1920, dhe një nga organizatorët e Luftës së Vlorës, që e hodhi ltalinë në det.

English: Born into a family of an ardent patriotic tradition. Another Spiro Koleka of his clan, that was a Tirana government minister in 1920, and one of the organizers of the War of Vlora, who threw the ltalians into the sea.

Also its not a dead link. The article is scanned and has been placed on a website where Pictures are stored and accessible. The article is a real source and the link is active. Not sure what you were clicking.

"Why are editors of X heritage now trying to undo a "neutral" solution to the matter ?). The so-called neutral solution, which was by the fact a clear" Its so called to you who said nothing during that time when a separate "ethnicity" section was created. Why did you not say anything ? Very curious. Just to recall in case things have gotten a bit much, that the neutral solution which anyone can check in the history page was one done when this article went to arbitration. Importantly it was done by a non-Balkan editor. You seemed to have once again said nothing there when a separate ethnicity section was created. Its that silence that i find interesting as only now you seem to speak up. Please, explain so we can know what has changed and also why that is especially when issues relating to that part of the article are contested and are better sited to be separate than combined in the main article? Resnjari (talk) 21:19, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

I want to remind everyone that so far the contribution of the Greek editors has been resulting in a big ZERO of REAL INFORMATION to this article! It is really a shame that shows deep desperation of such editors to stick to something incorrect, as long as it fits to their nationalistic bias. If Spiro had anything Greek, we would have found it by now. He lived for 92 years and was a living encyclopedia himself. How come you cannot find a single thing written by him or any family member of him in the Greek language? How come you don't find any folk verses/poems about any of the Kolekas in Greek language, but you find them in Albanian language? I hope you sleep well at night with your conscience dear Greek editors, if you have any conscience that it. Because scientific critical thinking is out of the question with what I have seen so far. And try to not disrupt any further the article, you are severely eroding your reputation in wikipedia. Burridheut (talk) 21:02, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

Stop with the OR and POV-pushing. There is no consensus to separate the information on origin, neither is there a explanation why this should be done. Why call upon consensus when there is none? Why is "Patriotic tradition" understood as "ethnic Albanian" or "non-Greek"? Stop using the word "neutral" for a revision which obviously isn't. --Zoupan 23:58, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

You need some guidance as it seems. Where am I using the word "neutral"? Can you find it, because I cannot. You and Alexikoua are reverting the article edits done by other users in turns, so that while reverting your disruptions I reach my revert limit before you two, since it is two of you alternating. Aren't you ashamed of your lowly methods? Is this what wikipedia is for you? A platform to exercise your nationalistic vendettas? @Resnjari & @Rolandi+ how do we get these two so called Greek editors to stop reverting our edits? Is there a way that you suggest from experience that would work? Reasoning and logic have no impact on them, we have all proven this by now. Burridheut (talk) 05:26, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

The rationale that editors of specific nationalities should be targeted by your co-ethnics is the epitomy of disruption in wikipedia. Kindly saying that you are one step before being reported, not to mention that Resnjari is adopting this approach. I suggest you both address the issues of the part in question as I've kindly stated above, but unfortuntately you have just proved that you are out of arguments. Thus, in case there is no reference which states that he is ethnic Albanian the correspodent text has no place too. That's a basic rule in this project no matter the national background of the editors.Alexikoua (talk) 08:16, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

Who do you think you are? Why do you think your opinion counts more than mine or Resnjaris? Why are you reverting my edits non-stop, but if I revert yours I risk getting reported? Listen up. You are just an internet anonymous with lots of time in your hands. Obviously, you don't have another job, but I am sure the greek propaganda pays very well nowadays. How about you write about topics and people that you have knowledge about? How about you leave politics out of here? This is valid also for Zoupan, get another job guys, this career is not for you. Burridheut (talk) 16:30, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

You also need to respect wp:NPA. It's a basic rule in this project. Also for the n-th time Kondo doesn't claim what you are eager to add, thus it's no wonder that your version can't stay.Alexikoua (talk) 19:30, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

That is your humble opinion. The section of the Ethnicity claims shall be separate, nothing you can do about that I am afraid. You are hereby kindly warned not to revert again. Talk here instead, gain consensus and then proceed. Very unprofessional behavior. Burridheut (talk) 19:41, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

By the way, you massacred a whole article because you did not agree with a single statement? WOW! Burridheut (talk) 19:43, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

You still need to explain why "origin" section is placed below life and career. It's easy to understand per simple chronological reasons that information about origin comes before the rest of the info about his life. Thus, whether or not a seperate section 'origin' has to be placed before life itself & no wonder this happens in all decent wikipedia biographies.Alexikoua (talk) 09:38, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

"The rationale that editors of specific nationalities should be targeted by your co-ethnics is the epitomy of disruption in wikipedia. Kindly saying that you are one step before being reported, not to mention that Resnjari is adopting this approach."

Alexikoua, please elaborate by what "approach" i am taking. As for Burridheut, you know how things are, and the people involved. Just go by the rules. Burridheut (talk · contribs) keep an eye on the Vuno page too, some possible source manipulations are being pushed. See the history page of that article for more. Resnjari (talk) 02:02, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Resnjari I will start working on the Vuno article some time soon. I see that a large portion of the text entered there by the same greek authors here is of very low quality, not to mention that a lot of it is pure junk. These editors confirm once more that they are deeply ignorant with regards to this region and its personalities and are just copying and pasting WHATEVER they find on the internet to forge articles that more misinform the public than inform it. I found the following ridiculous text in the Vuno article added by Zoupan: "During the 1997 conflict, an armed group set up a roadblock between Himarë and Vuno.[13]" I cannot believe this! Looks like I am reading an article news-line from Al Jazeera or CNN. Perhaps they will soon post also more news every time the village has a power black-out, or there is a storm, or it snows.....or a donkey gives birth! Burridheut (talk) 13:12, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Resnajri: Since you insert a number of Albanian authors (B. Meta, etc) I assume you won't object if I add Dimitropoulos too. Burridheut keep an eye on the Vuno page too, some possible source manipulations are being pushed. It appears that a childish national crusade is in full motion here. If you need to understand what's the definition of tendentious editting and excessive NPA violations I can help you on this: [[8]][[9]].Alexikoua (talk) 12:41, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

I never said you cannot put Dimitropoulos in. If you read my comments regarding that matter, i asked for you to define what is meant by Northern Epirote in the context Dimitropoulos was using it because he seems to have issues in even knowing which villages are Muslim or Orthodox in some cases. In inserted Meta because he elaborates on the other Spiro Koleka regarding his life. What wrong with that? Have you shown me how Meta is problematic considering he published in a peer reviewed journal or regarding his information. Is Meta wrong in what he wrote about the other Spiro Koleka? You wrote this as if there is an issue. Please explain, that all i ask before accusations are made. Whereas with Dimitropoulos there are multiple issues as i have repeatedly pointed out and any inclusion must have proper discussion as i have said. Also i ask you when in dialogue with me to refrain from name calling as i have done with you. You can have your opinion of "childish crusade" for yourself and its your opinion. As for Burridheut's edits, do not conflate them with me. I am a different editor and he is a different editor. Any issues you have with his edits are to be discussed with him and if that can not be done there are Wikipedia mechanisms to deal with such matters. Also, yes i will advise Burridheut, he is from Vuno and its an article he should be keeping an eye out considering whats been done.Resnjari (talk) 00:01, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Alexikoua, I am curious, do you even speak Albanian? Can you read any books in the Albanian language? Because you are trying to copy-paste the history of my country, based on what is written by authors of your country. There is a clear conflict of interest for a large number of historians and non-historians like yourself coming from Greece to make it look like there is a Greek community in Albania, like it is big, like it is suffering away from its motherland, etc. etc. Everyone knows that the Greek history-propaganda machine is a well established institution, I don't think you can get away with disregarding this fact. Greece remains one of the most ultra-nationalistic countries in Europe and this is even more obvious today with more than 6% of your parliament coming from Golden Dawn (political party). So don't preach too much about certain Greek authors, do us a favor. I have a proposal for you. How about you deepen your knowledge and get yourself a library card from the national library in Tirana? Perhaps you do not understand how ridiculous so many of your claims about south Albania sound, but it would sure help if you read some history that is not written by people like you. Burridheut (talk) 13:12, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Burridheut, just stick to the rules and don't get into a tit for tat in name calling. Wikipedia policy actually when one looks at it assists us. I know what worldview certain peoples in the Balkans have regard Albanians. Its what resulted in the Tripoltisa massacre all the way to the Kosovo genocide. Just be mindful of that. According to some of those views, you are really "Greek" but don't know it yet and speaking Albanian or that your ancestors used and you still use the ethnonym of Shqiptar is a "mistake", while because my ancestors converted from Orthodoxy to Islam, i am "Turk" and deserved to be done way with. Funny how there is not room for Albanian within that space. Anyway, just stick to the rules and do not engage in their polemics. That's what they have done with many Albanian editors in past times. From one Albanian to another, don't play those games of theirs. Like i said you need to keep an eye out on the Vuno page. As for Alexikoua speaking Albanian who knows. I know that he is from Greek Epirus not sure though if he is from the Albanian speaking part along the coast of current day Thesprotia as there are a lot of Orthodox Albanian speaker there? He might be a Vlach speaker, not sure with these things in Greece as you know.Resnjari (talk) 00:01, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

@Burridheut. I assume you don't expect a response from what you posted. I believe you need to self-remove them per WP:REDACT, else your future in this community might be too short.

• Burridheut separated information, according to his own POV, into a section named "Ethnicity". For the last time, we conclude that this was not per consensus. Users claimed that it was an uninvolved editor that did this (which still wouldn't constitute consensus).--Zoupan 00:39, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

Edits to this article must be explained and done through consensus

The ethnicity claims section was created by outside adjudication when editors in here took it to Wikipedia's dispute resolution. Due to the contested nature of the topic that section stays in its form. It is absolutely not agreed that Koleka was "Greek" by all sources and those sources have been shown to have issues. Its why non Balkan editors decided to create a separate section and it stays for neutrality reasons ! If anyone has an issue with that then they can take it to the same dispute resolution and make their case their for its removal and all the best to them. No unilateral moves. As for the Vuno bit, peer reviewed scholarship states that Vuno is inhabited by an Orthodox Albanian population and not up for dispute. Part of this population was and is pro-Greek like the Arvanites and others feel and identify solely as Albanians. To those who feel that the peer reviewed source/s are an irritant to them, bad luck, they meet Wikipedia criteria in being within the article and are more than credible. It is up to the editor to disprove those authors or their scholarship according to Wikipedia policy and not personal opinion. I am interested to hear the views of other editors like @Burridheut:, @Rolandi+: and others about the matter.Resnjari (talk) 04:36, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

Ethnicity section can go before or after, no issue, as long as it is separate, due to past contested issues over sources and the decision by non-Balkan editors (at dispute resolution) to create a section for it as a solution to the matter.Resnjari (talk) 11:12, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

I noticed that the Greek editors are hijacking the article content again. Renaming the section "Ethnicity Claims" to "Ethnicity" is unacceptable as the initial meaning is obfuscated, clearly this is done on purpose and in contrary to any neutrality principles. When will this childish nonsense stop? Burridheut (talk) 22:03, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

Apart from the inappropriate language used by Burrit., it is quite simple that a biography starts with the origin & family background of the subject instead of his carreer. This happens in all biographical articles, even with the ones we don't personally like or feel that it's disputed.Alexikoua (talk) 06:40, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

User:Alexikoua, make life easier for yourself, just put a few prominent examples (article links, best to have more non-Balkan than Balkan just in case to show that its done throughout wikipedia) up from Wikipedia. For me it no big issue whether it goes before or after. As long as that section stays separate (as was decided by non-Balkan editors in the first round of dispute resolution) and that any changes to its wording are discussed in here.Resnjari (talk) 13:21, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

Since you don't object the proposal that birth & origin should stay before the career of the subject, then everything is ok. Alexikoua (talk) 15:33, 15 October 2015 (UTC)÷

The suggestion i made was not for me i am ok with it either way, but for the others who may not agree. You know how its going to go. To make things easy, just put up a few examples (find a few over the next few days) and say its like this and like that here or there and it will be the end of that. Otherwise your going to end up being in a long and exhaustive dialogue with other editors over a insignificant matter. Its up to you though.Resnjari (talk) 16:32, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

Everyone here should provide arguments for himself. If the 'others' have reasonable objections they are free to participate. Until then, and since you are not against this reasonable proposal I'll procced. So if this 'other' will became kind enough and ask for something precise I'm glad to help.Alexikoua (talk) 16:47, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

Ok. By others i mean the other editors. You can check the review history page as to where it might go as someone already contested the move (and gave a reason) and is as of now the most recent change. Its going to be a endless "discussion", like had here before. Just making suggestions to make this easy on everyone. I meant no offense.Resnjari (talk) 16:56, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

The participants of an endless discussion need also to provide decent arguments to supports their point. If they are just into personal attacks inevitably this discussion won't last long. To sum up the events described in a biography follow a chronological sequence, even if some facts are disbuted: origin-birth-childhood-...-career-death (unless he is still alive). You can find a number of good examples here Category:GA-Class_biography_articles. All of the sudden a biography follows in general this rule.Alexikoua (talk) 09:30, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

Look Alexikoua, the content within the article is now fine. When the matter went to dispute resolution last time, non Balkan editors created a separate section for the contentious bits relating to ethnicity as a neutral solution. That was the result of the adjudication from last time. Burridheut's contribution was not out of line as pointed out by the administrators regarding his case, only certain commentary when engaging with other editors sadly. Any tampering of the ethnicity section by removing it and making it part of the article would be violating both good faith and the decision that was reached first time around at dispute resolution.Resnjari (talk) 15:52, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

None claimed that origin should be placed at the bottom of a biography, if you pretent that this is the point. Even if someone doesnt personally like the possible ethnic background of the subject.Alexikoua (talk) 18:01, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

I am not defending, that was the assessment given at the arbitration thing that happened recently. Administrator EdJohnston said regarding Burridheut "On the evidence there is enough reason to ban User:Burridheut from the topic of Spiro Koleka. This may be ironic, because it looks to me he could be right about the content matter. see: [[[10]] Regarding content Burridheut had his points anc concerns and were recognised as valid. His rapport with other editors is another matter and he got banned. Anyway back to the article, the way it stands is fine. The ethnicity section remains separate for neutrality purposes. Any edits/actions regarding tampering of it without discussion here will be going about it not in good faith and if shenangins occur will be reported. Beyond that all good. Resnjari (talk) 18:11, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

To separate information into such a section, pushed away to the bottom, is terrible POV, and does not at all have the purpose of neutrality (bad faith). Not acknowledging this is just silly^. I seriously doubt that this could stand. --Zoupan 01:01, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

The matter went to dispute resolution last time and non-Balkan editors decided to create a separate section. Like i said any tampering of it or unilateral moves to "integrate" the ethnicity section into the article will be seen as contravening good faith and vandalism. The section was created as the matter was contested and some of the sources were problematic to say the least. For impartiality reasons and neutrality, non Balkan editors created the ethnicity section. All changes must be discussed here. No unilateral moves otherwise the matter will be refereed to the appropriate Wikipedia bodies dealing with such matters.Resnjari (talk) 07:24, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

All non-blocked editors are free to contribute. In general the lunacy to place someone's origin at the bottom of a biography is the epitomy of disruption. I've also to note that reverting a banned user's disruptive edits do not constituted a revert per policy. @Resnjari: you need to be precise in your arguments, not just claiming that the "others" might object that. Wikipedia:Reverting#Exceptions. Alexikoua (talk) 14:13, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

Look when the article went to arbitration last time, the ethnicity section was created due to issues arising over the sources and so on and the edit warring. No one here decided to challenge that then. I have never said that having the section before or after is an issue. What is however is about integrating that section into the wider article itself. Neutrality must be maintained. I fail to see why that section should be integrated into the article after it went to third part adjudication and the decision there was made there for it to make it separate. I also note that in Burridheut's case, it was his rapport with editors that was found to be unbecoming not the concerns brought regarding the article and the administrators acknowledged that. I have pointed to that in my above comment. The ethnicity section stays separate for neutrality purposes as was done by at dispute resolution some months back now and no POV pushing. The section can be before or after, its no matter of concern there. I hope that was precise for all. Resnjari (talk) 15:26, 20 October 2015 (UTC)