Talk:Spiro Koleka/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Edit warring

Please wikipedia admins, help in removing editing rights to Users Zoupan and Alexikoua on this article. They edit this Article about Spiro Koleka non-stop, revert my edits, and wipe out entire text sections by entering their version of propaganda-filled text about this family member of mine. Please read details below:

The debate has concentrated into these points:

1. Spiros father name. User Zoupan found an inaccurate source. After I uploaded a picture of the grave of Spiro Koleka http://i.imgur.com/pAJ5FLt.jpg + his marriage certificate (I have it since it is a family document, http://i.imgur.com/xXHKx6o.jpg?1) the issue of the father got solved! So no discussion anymore.

2. Himara is a predominantly Greek region. This is false, I gave official links to the National Census disproving it. Less than 25% are Greek. BUT, besides being incorrect, this is totally irrelevant and unrelated to the article. This article is neither about Himara nor Greece. Therefore the two above-mentioned users were asked to remove this text as irrelevant, but they did not, they only used "Undo" after I did following their failure to provide historic backup for the contested references that they use. (Too easy to click "Undo" for them it seams)

3.They claim (from 4 books authored by the same person - Mr. Petiffer, a so-called expert on Balkan matters.) that Spiro Koleka was born in a ethnic Greek family. But this is entirely incorrect! His gravestone is written in Albanian letters and word-forming (not Greek), in addition there is a page on a peer-reviewed scientific encyclopedia (The Encyclopedic Dictionary of Albania, 1985, http://imgur.com/f7kLRxs) that explains that Spiro was born in a patriotic (meaning native) family. Also two more newspapers articles corroborate the same story. One written by a childhood friend and long time colleague (http://imgur.com/mAN9iW1 and http://imgur.com/gz1Srfm) and one written by the leaders of the political party he was a member of. They knew him better than someone that does not even care about minute details like this (Mr. petiffer). He also does not have any references in his books on the source of information about Spiro Koleka. I also challenged the two users mentioned above to go to the village of Vuno facebook group and ask the members (1300+, many are elderly people) there of the ethnicity of Spiro Koleka. This is not scientific, but if they really want to know the truth and don't believe that I am a family member (as if I collect marriage certificates from dead people born 107 years ago...), they can corroborate their claims or mine there. No action was taken from them, except "Undo" and commenting like they own wikipedia or something. Perhaps they have donated more than me for wikipedia?!

So, to conclude, my request is simple. Let my family member rest in peace and remove edit access to any propaganda troll that likes to write about Greece, Northern Epirus, Greek legends of the past, or any propaganda piece coming from the Balkans, in this wikipedia article about Spiro Koleka. I want this article to be accurate, truly informational to the public and not bloated with controversial claims, unreliable sources and provocative texts. I did not create this article so that my family member is being called what he is not. Also, I do not like that I have to spend entire hours of my days editing and correcting this article from these guys or their other friends. This is very frustrating. Burridheut (talk) 21:02, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

• Comment Greek community-belonging still not refuted. The edit-warring of Burridheut (talk · contribs) is the subject of a thread here.--Zoupan 21:06, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for creating a thread for me right after I created one for you here (ref. timestamp). Burridheut (talk) 21:19, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

• FYI, the {{Edit fully-protected}} is only for requesting edits to fully protected pages. This article isn't fully protected. Requests regarding user behaviour goes on the noticeboards. I see there is already a noticeboard thread at WP:ANEW. Stickee (talk) 23:02, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

Comment - though the Greek community-belonging is not refuted, there is sources that say he was Albanian and that also needs to go alongside the fact that his village Vuno is an Orthodox Albanian one (as per Nitisakos and Kallivretakis). All points need to be covered.Resnjari (talk) 21:24, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

The article is about a specific person not the settlement he came from and its ethno-religious composition.Alexikoua (talk) 21:29, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

The sources stating he is Albanian must go in however. They can not be omitted considering that the sources who state Koleka was Greek have already confused Himara town with Himara region, which calls into question their research into Koleka regarding accuracy of where he even was born (in Vuno, not Himara town). Also mentioning that Vuno is an Albanian Orthodox village is fine considering that the sentence in the article reads "Himara, a predominantly Greek region," (with footnote:"Albania: The state of a nation" (PDF). ICG Balkans Report N°111. p. 15. Retrieved 2010-09-02. "The coastal Himara region of Southern Albania has always had a predominantly ethnic Greek population.") for Vuno. It is equating Vuno as a Greek village, when peer reviewed sources(Nitsiakos and Kallivretakis) specifically state that to not be the case. You can not be selective about this or the Himara reference would need to be deleted for the sake of neutrality. Resnjari (talk) 21:41, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

"equating Vuno as a Greek village": If a region is predominantly populated by a specific group this doesn't mean that this happens in every single village there. The specific part points to the ethnic background of the specific person (Person x is of Greek ancensty, from a region which Greek people are used to live). About Vuno, Nitsiakos is very clear about the traditional pro-Greek sentiment of the village (anti-Zog struggles in 30s together with the Greek speaking Himariotes). We can create an entire section about Vuno, but this article isn't about Vuno. Alexikoua (talk) 22:04, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

A full citation is needed for the reference that states Koleka's Albanian background.Alexikoua (talk) 22:10, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

In the article it states he was born in Vuno. Why then the need to have the additional "Himara, a predominantly Greek region" without specifying that Vuno is a Orthodox Albanian village. What does citing "Himara being a predominantly Greek region" that have to do with Spiro Koleka who is from a Orthodox Albanian village? Wikipedia does state no POV pushing after all. "About Vuno, Nitsiakos is very clear about the traditional pro-Greek sentiment of the village (anti-Zog struggles in 30s together with the Greek speaking Himariotes)". Anti Zog struggles where not just limited to Greeks, but also Albanian Orthodox (speakers), Albanian Catholics and yes Albanian Muslims too and sometimes they cooperated on the matter. Anyway what does that have to do with Spiro Koleka and Zog? Are there connections between the two that so far have not been cited? Otherwise what's Zog's purpose in being brought up here ? In the end Nitiskaos states that Vuno is a Orthodox Albanian village and so does Kallivretakis and both did fieldwork in the area and are peer reviewed Greek academics. And Koleka was born in Vuno, not Himara town as some of the cited sources erroneously have stated. As for inline citations, Burridheut (talk · contribs) has already uncovered encyclopedic material. Anyway, i want some more input from him before i proceed with changes in the article.Resnjari (talk) 22:37, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

As I've expected the so-called (peer reviewed and scientific?) wp:rs is a 1985 publication of the regime [[1]]. Unless there is not a decent alternative view backed by rs, there is not even a reason to discuss his supposed non-Greek ethnicity.Alexikoua (talk) 07:04, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Ok that fine. However this part of the sentence. Whats its purpose "Himara, a predominantly Greek region". If it stays the additional "Orthodox Albanian village (Kaliivretakis +Nitisiakos)" goes next to Vuno to have balance considering that some of the sources there have mixed up Koleka's place of birth by claiming Himara town as such (thereby him being Greek) for the sake of neutrality. Otherwise if not "Himara, a predominantly Greek region" needs to be deleted so there is no POV pushing. Beyond that most of the rest can stay.Resnjari (talk) 21:51, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Hi Resnjari (talk · contribs). What would you like me to clarify? I will do my best. In the meanwhile I would like to point the same as you. When writing "Himara, a predominantly Greek region", the editors of this text not only show deep ignorance related to Himara, but also show an obvious propagandistic bias. After all, this article is not about Himara, Spiro was not even born there. I also asked these brilliant editors discussing with us to remove additional references that come from the same author (Pettifer). But no, they cannot (!), they put 4 there. I presented three sources that say that Spiro was born in Vuno in a patriotic family. Now a patriot is a person that is distinct in the work dedicated to his fatherland (The work "patria" from where "patriot" comes from is the Latin patria (terra), literally "father's land."). How can someone be a patriot and belong ethnically to another country? They refute an encyclopedia and use as a source "The Young Slav journal" !!! Why not use Tito's own notes, or the diary of Zervas instead? It would be more honest for them to do so. Burridheut (talk) 09:54, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Repetitive use of offensive terms such as vandals, propagandists in wikipedia reveal an edit-warring nature and can easily lead to blocks. On the other hand unfortunately we have no relibable reference about his supposed non-Greek patriotic origin & spirit. It appears that Pettifer & Vickers mention his Greek ethnicity in more than one works. In "Albania: From Anarchy to a Balkan Identity"p, 189 (obviously not a Greek supported work):

Hoxha followed a policy of what amounted to tokenism, with a few favoured members of the minority taking prominent positions within the system, while the cultural and religious identity of the remainder was gradually eroded. Thus for many years after 1948 Spiro Koleka, a native of the southern coastal town of Himara, was a member of the PLA Committee and Hoxha's trusted henchman on minority issues. He survived the various purges of the Central Committee, remaining a member until 1976. But at the same time the status of the Orthodox Church was attacked, and in the view of most minority members educational provision in the Greek language fell far short of what was needed for cultural equality."

It is clear that Koleka is mentioned under the context of the Greek minority and specifically under the policy of tokenism towards the Greek element. I have also to note that this tokensim policy is also an essential addition for this biography.Alexikoua (talk) 15:15, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Burridheut (talk · contribs) 'The Young Slav journal source was published in 2001, just after the fall of the Milosevic regime. So in a way it cannot bee deleted. If it was from before then one can argue strongly that the source is comprised as Serb scholarship was comprised due to political interference. Until that book on the Koleka family is written, Iliriana Koleka writes something regarding this matter or some post communist book on Vuno or the Himara region has written on the matter, for now it stays mainly as it is, with a slight addition for Vuno village in the article. Rules are rules and its important we abide by them, the same way Greek editors on other articles, like say Northern Epirus need to also abide by them. Alexikoua, as for tokenism, the Pollo family where ethnic Greeks high in Enver's party and they where there due to to that reason. Koleka was there because his family was prominent from the Himara region ad supported the emergence of the communist regime, like many Orthodox Albanians. It was sizable numbers of Albanian Muslims (mainly in the north with a sizable number in the south), who supported Balli Kombetar and almost all Catholic Albanians who where outside the communist regime. Its why there was a lot of Orthodox Albanians high up in the regime and southern Muslim Albanians.Resnjari (talk) 21:51, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Resnjari (talk · contribs) also 2 out of 3 sources that mention that Koleka was a born in a patriotic family wrote about him in 2001. What is the excuse to give precedence to the young slav journal over the people that lived, fought and worked with him and published an article of condolence to his family? What is the evidence Spiro was Greek anyway? Any record, official document? Where is it? I am challenging a source here, this is how science works. Either you prove a claim, or it remains unfounded and cannot be used. Burridheut (talk) 09:56, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

The policy of tokenism, presented by Pet.&Vickers refers to the treatment of the Greek minority. To sum up, Koleka was an exeption and he reached a high rank in the regime, contrary to the rest of the minority. Off course this is of essential value and needs to be added in this article.Alexikoua (talk) 08:28, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

Koleka was no exception at all. I am astonished that you are not able to understand such simple reality. He was not so high in power because of religion. Koleka himself was an atheist, same as Enver was. You forget who forbid religion in Albania for several decades it seems, or perhaps you just don't know about it. As for Pettifer, he fails to provide a historic source for Spiro's Greek belonging. So, I am sorry but we cannot keep such fabricated claim here in wikipedia. You have to provide a document or official record for Spiro being ethnic greek, otherwise I will edit away such unfounded claims. Burridheut (talk) 09:56, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

Resnjari (talk · contribs), Alexikoua (talk · contribs) if you see who has authored ALL sources claiming that Spiro is ethnic Greek it turns out that it is the same Author: PETTIFER. How can we use the same person as a reference 5 times? See for yourself references [3] [4] [5] [4] in the beginning of the article and reference [11] later on. How can we base history on ONE man who does not even provide sources or documentation for his claims ??? Burridheut (talk) 10:26, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

It's both Vickers & Pettifer. As far I know they claim this in 2 works, the one offers a lot of detail about Koleka in the context of the treatment of the Greek minority. Is there anything wp:rs which states about an alternative Albanian ethnicity (backed by non-authoritarian authorities)?Alexikoua (talk) 11:40, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

You cannot continue like this. I told you to see the references. It is in 5 of them not 2, please read and check for yourself. All written by Pettifer. If in 2 of them Vickers is co-author that does not change anything. You have failed to provide any evidence so far, you are basing your case on pure speculation that is not based on any records. Show records please. Burridheut (talk) 12:04, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

To sum up: both works written by Vickers&Pettifer are perfectly cited and you still fail to provide a single argument why they are incorrect. Guess the mail you sent them wasn't successfull at all. I'm waiting for argument why these two authors can be considered unreliable and therefore should ignored.Alexikoua (talk) 17:47, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

I didn't plan to comment further on this topic, but since the Greek wikipedians jumped into it, I will add something too. Vickers and Pettifer are wrong on several topics. I.e. they state that Simon Stefani was a Greek whose served as a the last Minister of Defence, while Stefani was not Greek, was from Permet, never served as Minister of Defence, the last Defence Minister was actually Kico Mustaqi who was Greek, etc... Even Elsie makes mistakes, like in this case. Therefore, wikipedia has Wp:be bold and Wp:Ignore all rules.

The tombstone says Spiro Thoma Koleka (1908-2001). Doesn't take a huge knowledge on Communist Albania to understand that Koleka could not be the son of Spiro J. Koleka, who served as a Minister during King Zog era. That is impossible.

As far as for the Greek nationality, funny, there is the interview with his daughter Ilirjana Koleka who says many things. I cited the link somewhere above. As much as the Greeks would like to present all the Orthodox population from Bregu as Greeks, so far they got only Pirro Dhima. Hold him tight! Mondiad (talk) 01:30, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Look guys, yes there are multiple issues with Vickers and Pettifer, as for Elsie you would have to point it out how. Nonetheless, they have written in peer reviewed publications and its passes Wikipeida's test for them being within the article. What i would say to the other Albanian editors here is to find post communist (from 1992 onwards) sources that discuss Vuno (and mention Koleka) or books and so on that discuss Koelka and say he was Albanian. Then that can be added in addition to the Vickers and Pettifer stuff. My only issue with the article at this point in time is that this bit either gets deleted"Himara, a predominantly Greek region" because it comes after the Vuno bit thereby implying that Vuno is inhabited by Greeks (when peer reviewed literature does not say this) especially when some of the sources have mixed Himara town with Himara region regarding Koleka's birthplace which was Vuno. If it stays however, the additional "Orthodox Albanian village (Kaliivretakis +Nitisiakos)" for Vuno needs to be added so neutrality is established. Resnjari (talk) 03:02, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

• G97 T.J. Winnifrith (2003), Badlands-Borderland: A History of Southern Albania/Northern Epirus, ISBN 0-7156-3201-9, p. 138. Quote: "Under King Zog, the Greek villages suffered considerable repression, including the forcible closure of Greek-language schools in 1933-1934 and the ordering of Greek Orthodox monasteries to accept mentally sick individuals as inmates." and "On the other hand under Hoxha there were draconian measures to keep Greek-speakers loyal to Albania. Albanian rather than Greek history was taught in schools."; again, don't put your personal views on the retrospect of Vuno, Himara and Northern Epirus. You have still not presented evidence that Vuno was "only Albanian" before Zogu.--Zoupan 03:26, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Zoupan, don't inflame the situation. Orthodox Albanians during the late Ottoman period were confused about their identity (see: Vassilis Nitsiakos. On the border. 2010. p. 153. “The influence of Hellenism on the Albanian Orthodox was such that, when the Albanian national idea developed, in the three last decades of the 19th century, they were greatly confused regarding their national identity.”). Greek schools were opened during that time and people who where Orthodox and spoke Albanian where exposed to hellenisation and it is not a "personal view". Before Zog (pre 1923/1924), Vuno was still recognised as being a Orthodox and Albanian speaking village. Again Nitsiakos (page 98): "It is also striking that the Albanian-speaking villages of Himare kept their Greek schools open until 1920 and that, during the Greek minority’s struggle for Greek schools (1934-36), the villages themselves asked for Greek schools, but the Albanian government of the time rejected their demand (Dedes 1976:252)." Yes you will say that Greek schools where wanted by these people, however, the whole population did not share in such pro-Greek sentiments. It is well documented that Spiro Jorgo (also Gogo, as Gogo is a Albanian diminutive of Jorgo and both forms exist for him in Albanian documents) Koleka of Vuno (not the communist politician of the same name discussed in the article) was a major leader from the Himara region that opposed its annexation to another state, he participated in the Vlora War against the Italians and also organised local Himariots (in a regional sense) who supported Albania to fight in the Vlora War. He also was one of the main leaders that participated at the Lushjna Conference which was important for the reestablishment of the Albanian state after World War One. He was not forced to be Albanian, nor other from the Himara region who supported the Albanian cause as the Albanian state was consolidated only after the Lushnja congress. So their Albanian identity was not "forced". It was for some, but not for all. Like Nitsiakos states, Orthodox Albanians were confused about their identity and importantly not all where supporters of a Greek identity or future.

For more see journal article on Spiro Jorgo Koleka: Meta, Beqir. "Ballafaqimi shqiptaro-grek për Himarën (1920-1924)[Greek-Albanian confrontation in Himara (1920-1924)]." Studime Historike 1-2 (2008): 43:

Pas mbarimit të Luftës I Botërore lëvizja atdhetare shqiptare në Himarë u rigjallërua. Një vend të veçantë luajti Spiro Gogo Koleka, i cili ndihmoi për mbledhjen e Kongresit të Lushnjës dhe zbatimin e vendimeve të tij. Ai bashkë me patriotë të tjerë ishte nënshkruesi i mjaft dokumenteve dërguar përfaqësuesve të Fuqive të Mëdha në Konferencën e Paqes, në të cilat kundërshtohej çdo përpjekje për aneksimin e Vlorës dhe Himarës1. Në maj të vitit 1920 Spiro G. Koleka u caktua anëtar i qeverisë kombëtare. Ai më vonë u bë njëri nga organizatorët e Luftës së Vlorës kundër italianëve, në të cilën morën pjesë edhe himarjotë të tjerë.

Translation: After the end of World War One, the Albanian patriotic movement in Himarë was revived. A special place Spiro Gogo Koleka played, who assisted at the gathering of the Congress of Lushnja and implementation of its decisions. He and other patriots were signatory to many documents sent to the representatives of the Great Powers during the Peace Conference, that opposed any attempt to annex Vlora and Himarë. In May 1920 Spiro G. Koleka was appointed member of the national government. He later became one of the organizers of the Vlora War against the Italians, where other Himariots participated.

Resnjari (talk) 04:10, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Resnjari (talk · contribs) thank you for shedding more light into the matter. You are knowledgeable on the topic and it is a pleasure to exchange messages with you. The situation is pretty clear to everyone, there is a political/ethnic agenda that these two users are trying to force through. Why 5 references from the same person (Pettifer) ?! Why no documents to back up those references? I wrote Pettifer, but never got an answer. It is true that it is summer holiday season now and he maybe has not read my email, but it can happen that he never responds me. What does that mean? Does that mean that his opinion gets to stay and my challenge towards the sources that he has used is nulled? Absolutely not! If you claim someone is from a Greek family, you need to provide proof for this. Who was the greek in Spiro's family? Was it the father, was it the mother? Where is this information coming from? How come these guys (or ladies) are so sure of themselves that they do not consider this information to be inaccurate? Saying "Vuno, near Himara" is the same as saying "Europe, part of planet Earth". Not that this is incorrect, but it is irrelevant when speaking about Spiro Koleka. Let Zoupan and Alexikoua address their claims about Himara in the Himara article, not in the article about Spiro Koleka. Otherwise this is just a provocation from this two editors.

Now coming to a recent publication about Spiro Koleka, I posted you one from Anastas Kondo (Read here: http://imgur.com/mAN9iW1 and here: http://imgur.com/gz1Srfm), published in 2001 (so, after 1992 since you wanted a post-communist source). Perhaps this author is not known to all, but he was a very distinct intellectual in Albania and has left behind a wealth of writings in many fields of life. A short summary about him so you understand why he is an excellent source of information. Anastas Kondo was born in the city of Kucova, November 28, 1937. After completing Tirana Polytechnic continued his studies in St. Petersburg, Russia, where he graduated as a paleontology engineer. He worked at the Institute of Geological Studies in Kucova oil, then in Fier. He is known as a writer, journalist and writer of a number of films, among which mention "overseas mission", "Great Winter", "when it was a day", "Partizan small Velo", etc. He has also been known for his literary creativity where some of the works are well appreciated by national awards. Among the volumes of stories mentioning "The Bridge", "When does the dying man", "The gates of the sun", "Why have killed Odyssey", "Kio", "People and stones", "when it was a day" etc. Writer, journalist and screenwriter of some famous films, Anastas Kondo is the author of several textbooks and scientific studies, which laid the foundation of the science of Micropaleontology in Albania. For several years he worked in leading sectors of literature, culture and education. Also he worked as deputy minister of education and culture, secretary of the Union of Writers and Artists, Chairman of the Committee of Culture and Arts etc. This guy worked closely with Spiro and knew him far too well. The article that he wrote upon Spiro's death describing Spiro's life achievements is much more relevant than some line written by Pettifer that knows nothing about Spiro Koleka or Vuno to this very day. I understand that Pettifer has some fans around here, but Anastas Kondo was a man of a higher caliber. It is like comparing Walter White (from BB) with Niels Bohr. One just can't. Burridheut (talk) 19:42, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

I try my best. :) The Kondo article is ok, though i want to know what the Greek editors will say (and it has to be based on actual Wikipedia policy, not made up policy was done in the Souliots article). Kondo does identify this Spiro Koleka(p2) as being a relative of the older Spiro Koleka. The stuff on Koleka being "Greek" though will stay because it is in peer reviewed literature (even though there are multiple issues with it). We need Albanian sources (post 1992) and passes the Wikipedia guidelines (that how it is). Do you know of any books written on Vuno or Koleka for that matter after 1992? I can put a request for my university library (through the document delivery service) to look for them internationally (Tirana University library does not participate in this in case your wondering as i have tried before. German University libraries and the Library of Congress are great when it comes to Balkan books). It will take a few months though for me to get and likewise then to return to this matter. As for adding in that Vuno is a Orthodox Albanian village i think its ok, since some of the sources saying Koleka was Greek have mixed up the place of his birth and drawn conclusions from that mix up. If not then the predominantly Greek Himara bit gets deleted as it has no purpose to the article, so neutrality is kept. Burridheut (talk · contribs) if you thought this article had issues, you should have a look at the Vuno article. There sources have been manipulated to assert that Vuno is a Greek village and will need fixing after this article. After the matter is resolved here, i hope that you will be able to assist me in doing a overhaul of that article. If you have time, would you be able to do a spell and grammar check of a article sq:Parga on Albanian Wikipedia (through using the Redakto button and not the Redakto tekstin burimor button which makes it complicated. Send me a message on my Wikipedia shqip page regarding it) ? Resnjari (talk) 01:49, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

I will find some time to help with the other articles Resnjari. I know a lot about Vuno since it is the village of my family. Vuno is an Albanian Orthodox village, no discussion about that. No ethnic Greeks live there though and that is easy to disprove. "The elders identify themselves as Northern Epirotes" ref. Basilēs G. Nitsiakos (2010) is a fantasy. The elders are on the facebook group of Vuno today, they can be asked to clarify this. This is ridiculous. Burridheut (talk) 09:40, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Firstly,Spiro Koleka's father was Thoma Koleka. Secondly,Vickers + Pettifer is not a reliable source.Why?Because it says :"Many remained in high Party positions, such as the last communist Defence Minister Simon Stefani."The last communist Defence Minister was Kiço Mustaqi (9 July 1990 – 12 May 1991) who was succeded by Ndriçim Karakaçi.This reference can't be used and needs to be deleted.Rolandi+ (talk) 18:29, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

References

Regarding Nitsiakos there is no issue. He is an sociologist and a very good one. Its just how his content has been selectively used that is the issue. The bit in the Vuno article that says "The elders identify themselves as Northern Epirotes" is selective. I know which editor wrote that (for more see the Vuno History page of edits and that editor has also participated in this discussion) and for the moment will give him the benefit of doubt and say that he did that edit in good faith while omitting a large part of Nitsiakos who states every clearly that such identifications in Vuno with "Northern Epirote" identity are done either for pension/work purposes and also because the person talking to them (Nitsiakos) is Greek and they want to come off as being friendly to such people. Nitsiakos says that they are ambiguous when they talk about their identity with him and by going about it this way they avoid discussing their true identity with him. For more read page 466 at https://books.google.com.au/books?id=H-7toRTGrFkC&pg=PA466&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false As for future assistance, thank you Burridheut (talk · contribs) i appreciate it. Rolandi+ (talk · contribs) good stuff. To all the other Albanian editors too, if you know(or are aware) of good sources(preferably post 1992 is best) on Vuno or Spiro Koleka, but don't have access to them yourselves do place the title, author (and publishing house would be good too) in here so i can get put requests to get them. This issue needs revisiting. As much scholarly sources that can be gathered would be good before changes can be made about the identity issue. All the best guys !Resnjari (talk) 04:35, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

So if someone doesn't agree he can talk now as the Vickers + Pettifer reference will be deleted soon.Rolandi+ (talk) 15:23, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Rolandi+... According to which concensus? I don't see you as an arbitrator. --Zoupan 15:29, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Zoupan ...Firslty read the discussion and then come and talk to me.As I said earlier,that source isn't reliable.Rolandi+ (talk) 15:34, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Even if you personally think a source is not reliable, you do not delete it. You can, however, raise the question at WP:Reliable sources/Noticeboard to get the verdict of the community. --T*U (talk) 15:45, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

@Resnjari:@Zoupan:As I said Vickers + Pettifer reference says :"Many remained in high Party positions, such as the last communist Defence Minister Simon Stefani."The last communist Defence Minister was Kiço Mustaqi (9 July 1990 – 12 May 1991) so this reference isn't reliable.Rolandi+ (talk) 16:03, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

It depends on the fall of communism in Albania; Revolutions of 1989; new political parties were legalised on 11 December 1990; first multi-party elections on 31 March 1991. As per this, he may very well be regarded the last communist DM (as Vickers clearly does), and Mustaqi the first democratic.--Zoupan 16:45, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

@Zoupan: Before Mustaqi the DM was Prokop Murra (from 1982-1990).It is clear that Vickers+Pettifer source is unreliable and needs to be deleted.Rolandi+ (talk) 05:46, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

They are wrong on this. Simon Stefani was never Minister of Defence. In no time. And it happens that the last communist Minister of Defence was indeed of Greek descend, but his name is Kiço Mustaqi and he is from Saranda. Of course they didn't do it on purpose but is a clear error. No way to spin it around. I will ping user @Ismail: if you want to clarify, he is the main contributor and leader of most of the articles on Communist Albania. And he is not Albanian btw. And there are many many sources on Kico Mustaqi, or Albanian Ministers of Defence.Mondiad (talk) 17:24, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Mustaqi was made Minister of Defense and a full member of the Albanian Politburo in the course of 1990, when fundamental economic and social changes were underway in the country and when perceived hardliners like Rita Marko were removed from that same body, so it does make sense to view him as more of a "democratic" politician than a "communist" one in this period insofar as the latter were transitioning to the former. Simon Stefani was Interior Minister until that same year; he was removed as one of the aforementioned hardliners and replaced with Hekuran Isai. --Ismail (talk) 21:18, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Thanks to all who are discussing and providing additional backup links and references about Spiro Koleka and Vuno. The arguments presented so far by Resnjari, Rolandi, Mondiad are very convincing with regards to the inaccuracy of the material coming from the sources provided by Zoupan/Alexikoua. I wonder how is it possible that these two people hold so much influence here in wikipedia. How come they can undo, edit, remove my text but their text is untouchable. Can someone explain this to me? Am I doing something wrong when I challenge a source and show its inconsistencies? How come that when I give them certain arguments that they cannot dismiss they don't respond but dodge the discussion in different directions. Not a single comment about Anastas Kondo from them. It is impossible to convince someone who does not read your comments! But it is even more impossible to convince someone who even when presented with proofs prefers to stick to his/her beliefs! That is why I am convinced that this is Greek propaganda, so don't expect any consensus from them. Burridheut (talk) 18:50, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Regarding influence, yes i have had those thoughts too. I have been threatened with a outright ban within after i challenged the revert of my edits on the Chams Albanian page (in the end most went through except one due to "original research purposes"), had my cognitive abilities questioned (on the article with a POV pushing name Muslim Greeks), had accusations of POV always leveled against me (and that's only when i have proposed edits in the talk page using peer reviewed material !) and so on. Its just the lot of the Albanian i guess. I'll just say this, if this goes to some arbitration thing(and notify me), i can argue the case for Vuno and the identity issues strongly. Regarding Communist members of Enver's government and their positions, you other Albanian editors are going to have to do that. I don't know the profiles too in depth to do that. Also look at the Wikipedia policy regarding Identifying reliable sources > Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources so we do this from a very strong position. All the best guys !Resnjari (talk) 14:47, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

I'm afraid that so far there are not decent arguments presented to prove that Vicker&Pettifer are unreliable in this case. In general authors are not considered incorrect or correct according to our national taste. By the way, the specific authors have been regared as clearly pro-Albanian, for example in the case of Cham Albanians.Alexikoua (talk) 18:35, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

It not about whether the authors are pro-Albanian. Its whether their content is based on facts (accuracy etc) or sloppy scholarship. There is no "ethnic crusade" here as you claim and that is your interpretation. Actually Albanian editors are going by Wikipedia policy in trying to identify the reliability of the source/s. You know very well Alexikoua from a previous exchange regarding sources on the Çarcovë talk page that one Dimitropoulos used data that double counted Greek villages (and also had wrong geographical location data) which was based on documents that was used by the Greek government (hence also calling into question their data. You did say you would email the Greek government. What was their reply regarding those errors as you never replied to me back regarding the issue ?) and so on. The discussion had here is more than valid. Be constructive about it before engaging in name calling. As such Spiro Koleka is not alive to speak for himself. There are serious errors that have been detected and some editors feel that the content overall may be an issue. Resnjari (talk) 02:31, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Be constructive about it before engaging in name calling. Before you advise Alexikoua perhaps you should consider things like the heading of this thread: "Edit warring and propaganda editors/vandals". That heading was chosen by one of the other editors. You should also consider the shower of insults directed toward Zoupan and Alexikoua by at least one of the other editors. Advising Alexikoua in isolation of the environment created by others looks a bit unbalanced. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 03:09, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

I have been repeatedly accused of POV and fringe theories (even though in end my edits have gone through as my sources are very credible. My cognitive faculties (highly offensive) have even been under scrutiny by Greek editors. So please spare me Dr Dk. I have had more than enough of that, and yet i turn the other cheek because i understand that some know no better. After the campaign launched against Rolandi by some editors whose own record was not clean, and considering that Alexikoua a editor with privileges has on occasion even made up policy (10% threshold- with no sanction i might add) to prevent peer reviewed material going into ]the Souliotes article (in the end it did go in as i am becoming very familiar with Wikipedia policy and made the case very strongly!), i will advise that. I have defused situations before and have called out sources Albanian, Greek or otherwise when they are at issue. You said once that you have respect for me, or was that momentary because it was when all were perusing Rolandi and some thought that i too would engage in that quest instead of trying to defuse the situation. Stick to the sources as i have repeatedly said to Greek editors and also to Albanian editors and importantly stick to Wikipedia policy.Resnjari (talk) 03:50, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Let's focus here Resnari. My comment was not about accusations against you. My comment was about your advice to Alexikoua regarding his latest comment. Alexikoua's reply was not directed toward you. Alexikoua replied to another editor and you chose to advise him regarding his comments while at the same time ignoring the blatant incivility of the other editor. You may have been accused unjustifiably in the past but that is irrelevant to a situation such as this which does not involve you. When you give advice to other editors regarding their civility you should consider the behaviour of all parties involved. Otherwise your advice will be not be perceived as impartial. Don't let your bad experiences in the past cloud your judgement in the present, especially in situations not involving you directly. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 04:07, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Alexikoua stated that "in general authors are not considered incorrect or correct according to our national taste." That is true in one way but it can also be perceived in another. And that is that Albanian editors here are somehow being selective regarding the sources as to what suits them best. That is not the case as they are engaging is discussion now in testing the reliability of the source/s regarding Spiro Koleka and serious issues have come up. If Pettifer and others have been loose with the facts or content regarding Koleka, that needs to be discussed. The same goes for other sources. I hold to that principle. That's all. Like said before, Spiro Koleka cannot speak from the grave and others have done the speaking for him through written text that has asserted itself as authoritative peer reviewed sources. One must make sure if issues have come up. Like i said its the sources that should guide us and the policy contained on Wikipedia. No accusations about "national taste" etc and the discussion should be undertaken in good faith. Otherwise it further inflames the situation. You remember how things where going with the matter about Rolandi. When i intervened those issues came to a halt and he has improved quite a lot in a short time. Discussion, not accusation. All done in good faith. That's my rationale.Resnjari (talk) 04:31, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Alexikoua stated that "in general authors are not considered incorrect or correct according to our national taste." I can't speak for Alexikoua, but I don't think he included you when he said that. If he did, it would be wrong. I just think you should have the confidence not to include yourself in such criticism and when you provide advice you should give it to all the parties involved. That's when your advice is perceived as impartial. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 04:45, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

I understand that, but its repetitive now as there have been other instances on other pages. So in effect, forgive me but to me its starting to appear as repetitive behavior. And i have given advice to other editors (if you recall the whole matter regarding Rolandi). My point to all editors is this, Wikipedia policy has guidelines for identifying a reliable source, we should follow that. If editors have brought up issues with the sources, that should be discussed according to policy. All should stick to that. No name calling, also to be cautious about making accusations of POV especially if an edit has not been made in the article, and matters are under discussion in the talk page.Resnjari (talk) 05:19, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

I fully agree with you and you know that I respect you as an editor. What I am trying to say is that since you are a great editor with understanding of the policies perhaps you can use your influence to help everyone involved tone down the rhetoric by advising everyone to just concentrate on the facts and not their perceived opponents. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 07:01, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

I have suggested a compromise to this issue. Basically that this bit "near Himara, a predominantly Greek region" stays and an additional Orthodox Albanian gets added alongside the "village of Vuno" or if not the Himara bit gets deleted (so neutrality is kept). Why because the sources stating Koleka was Greek have mixed up his place of birth (which is Vuno) and said he was from Himara town which is not the case (and due to also the whole area being called Himara region). In doing so they have drawn the conclusion that Koleka was Greek on account that he is from Himara town. Vuno has been identified as an Orthodox Albanian village by Greek academics who have done fieldwork in the area (Kallivretakis and Nitsiakos). This is where the issue is for many Albanian editors. For me the bits by Petiffer though problematic, can stay, if the Kondo article is added to point out that there are additional points of view regarding the matter. It is an obituary article in an newspaper by a noted Albanian academic Anastas Kondo from Vuno. This would end the matter.Resnjari (talk) 07:20, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Thank you. I have no opinion in this matter but I appreciate your great and civil effort. Take care. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 07:31, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

In general authors are not considered incorrect or correct according to our national taste,but making Simon Stefani the last communist Defence Minister means that a reference isn't reliable and needs to be deleted!Rolandi+ (talk) 07:14, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

I agree with your statement regarding national taste. Thank you Rolandi. As far as the source I will not get involved in this since I don't have the time at present. Best regards. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 07:31, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Interestingly no one from the Greek editors/commentators here seems to find the time to analyse the facts, discuss constructively and find agreement. However, finding time to disagree and revert my edits has never been a problem. To anyone that wants to help with this issue please see the thread I have created in the dispute resolution board: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#Talk:Spiro_Koleka Burridheut (talk) 14:02, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

One thing you have to practice is WP:AGF. When I say I have no time then I have no time to pursue this. I also have no interest in the subject. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 15:16, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

I want to assume good faith. I just cannot do it when I tell you all that I am family with Spiro. I provided personal documents of the deceased and you guys still tell me what ethnicity my family has. Do you really think that if we were Greek I would find it out from wikipedia? Also, how about these Greek editors assuming some good faith for once? How about they accept that since I created the article (back in 2012) and over 95% of the text in the article is mine, I know the story of this man better that a so called balkan expert? Yeah, lets see some good faith please. Burridheut (talk) 21:38, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Also his other name needs to be deleted.Thoma Koleka was his father.Spiro Thoma Koleka was used in official documents ,it wasn't his other name.Rolandi+ (talk) 16:09, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

That can stay so that people do not mix him with the other Spiro Koleka. They were both ministers, engineers, important men so it is easy to mix them if one does not have a look at the years they lived and worked. Burridheut (talk) 21:38, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

There's another source > Gregorič, Nataša. "Contested Spaces and Negotiated Identities in Dhermi/Drimades of Himare/Himara area, Southern Albania " (PDF). University of Nova Gorica. 2008., who on page 151 by citing Pettifer has mixed up the older Spiro Jorgo Koleka with the Spiro Koleka of this article by combining them as the same person ! Anyway the proposed edits i said at this moment is the best solution to the matter. It will be tricky at this point in time to remove Pettifer as he does meet Wikipedia guidelines. To fully remove him we will need Albanian sources on Vuno. Burridheut (talk · contribs), how much time before that book by the Koleka's on their family is published (this source would basically to the matter to rest with no doubts) ? Also ask around the Vuno diaspora from your cousins and so on about who has published books on Vuno, or prominent figures from Vuno in recent times (which probably would have something on Koleka (i can get these, but i need titles and authors). Even the Albanian encyclopedia (if you have access to it) would be good too (post 1992 preferably). These would be the best sources in having Pettifer removed and meeting Wikipedia guidelines in going about it at a latter date.Resnjari (talk) 02:56, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Resnjari (talk · contribs), Pettifer can write in his books that Koleka was an astronaut if he wants. Do I have to find a source that says the opposite? Absolutely not. He that claims what Spiro is has to prove it, show some records. Pettifer fails to do so, that is why he is not a reliable source in this case. I am not challenging the whole body of work this man has built over the years, but for Spiro he provides no records where he bases his claims. That is why I challenge this author's writings about Spiro Koleka. I hope you follow my logic here. Burridheut (talk) 14:32, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

To other editors and Burridheut (talk · contribs). I restructured the sentence regarding sources and origins. Its the best i could do in light of the situation and to reach a compromise on the matter. Regarding the Pettifer material and others they do have the factual inaccuracy issues regarding Koleka's birthplace and have drawn conclusion from that regarding his origins. However because they are in a peer reviewed source/s they can stay in the article if it remains the way it has been written alongside the Anastas Kondo obituary newspaper article. Like this all positions are covered and neutrality is kept. I hope all editors involved will take this into consideration. To Burridheut, i came across a recently published book on the other Spiro Koleka (and have placed an order for it see article: http://www.shekulli.com.al/p.php?id=229279) which Anastas Kondo identifies as this Spiro's relative. There will be some information on the wider family as with other similar books. It will take a few months for me to get. If you can get a copy for yourself earlier and check it, it would be great.Resnjari (talk) 05:23, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Hi Resnjari (talk · contribs), thanks for restructuring the article. It is better formulated now, despite the inaccuracies of Pettifer. Is it possible to also reduce the number of references? What I mean is that there is no need to quote the same author 4 times, from 4 different publications made by him (Pettifer). Regarding your comment about the two Spiros, yes they are related, but they are not close. Their last common ancestor has lived in 1720 (from the records). So although they belong to the same family tree, they are very far away for all practical purposes. Burridheut (talk) 09:11, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Spiro Koleka family's origin is from Mirdita.This is what Edi Rama has said.[2] This means that Spiro Koleka's family isn't of "Greek" origin,but of Mirditor (Albanian) origin.Rolandi+ (talk) 07:26, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Edi Rama is correct about the origin. The Koleka family comes from the north of Albania, as do many other well known families in the region. Burridheut (talk) 09:11, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Most people in Vuno have kept memories of their ancestors place of origin. According to tradition they state that their ancestors came from northern Albania and some were soldiers in Skanderbeg's army. They found refuge in the area and settled there after the Turkish conquest. Rama is referring to that. Considering that a lot of Arberesh in Italy came from southern Albania (and were soldiers) is is very plausible that not all made the journey across to Italy and some relocated. Anyway that's dealing with Vuno in general. The stuff about Koleka is about the here and now. The Greek stuff can be removed if we have some kind if biography or book written about Koleka, their family etc. For now, the way its written in the article can stay as it covers both sides. Its sad that Pettifer did not bother to do more in depth research, but that's how it stands now.Resnjari (talk) 08:31, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

I will send him another email Resnjari. And if he will not respond this will damage his credibility. Burridheut (talk) 09:11, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

The most reliable source here isn't Pettifer,Vickers etc but Edi Rama who is a member of Koleka family.His mother was the sister of Spiro Koleka and he says clearly that their origin is from Mirdita.Rolandi+ (talk) 08:44, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Hi Rolandi, Aneta is not Spiros sister (or daughter), that has been clarified by me previously. They are quite close though. Burridheut (talk) 09:11, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

I know where your coming from Rolandi, yet it would be difficult because other editors would say that Spiro Koleka is not mentioned by Rama and he was making a generalised statement about his family. For the moment the way i wrote it makes the issue neutral. We need to accumulate more sources before removing Pettifer completely (as inaccuracies have been identified in Pettifer's work such as Koleka's place of birth), due to Wikipedia guidelines.Resnjari (talk) 08:51, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Rama clearly says that his mother's family is of Mirditor origin.His mother was Spiro Koleka's relative.It means that Rama is talking about Spiro Koleka's origin.Rolandi+ (talk) 09:09, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Again, not sister (or daughter), but close family. So what Edi Rama says is correct. Burridheut (talk) 09:14, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

You can also see this ( more detailed interview):[3].Here Koleka family is clearly mentioned. Rolandi+ (talk) 09:24, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

As long as a reliable source claiming Koleka was ethnic Albanian (refuting Greek) is not presented, the article should not be altered. Please present the claim of Mirditë origin here.--Zoupan 22:04, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

The reason why in Albanian sources no one mentions that Koleka is Albanian is because it is a presumably already known thing and no one has felt the need to say otherwise until now. I mean who in Albania reads Pettifer or has access to his works amongst wider society. Same like say Rugova, or Hoxha and so on. He was not considered a other, or as a Greek. But yes, it will be needed to be stated from a peer reviewed source (book journal article etc). I have said this and the issue can be revisited once one is located. Also Zoupan, if the sentence "near Himara, a predominantly Greek region" remains, the Orthodox Albanian bit regarding Vuno will be added and needs to remain as to have neutrality. The sources stating that Koleka was Greek have also stated that he was born in Himara town which is factually incorrect. Otherwise the Albanian Orthodox but can be deleted if the Himara bit goes as well. It is so there is no bias and POV pushing.Resnjari (talk) 04:33, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

Stop playing games here.Vickers Pettifer references need to be deleted .As Zoupan said we need only reliable sources.The family members say that the family is of Mirditor origin that means he was Albanian.No one believe a source full of inaccuracies.Rolandi+ (talk) 08:24, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

Rolandi, yes Pettifer has inaccuracies and it has been strongly established. The issue is here is with what peer reviewed Albanian sources are we going to replace it with to make it beyond doubt? Find them guys and then it can be done (This issue can be revisted in a few months time once those sources are found by editors in here). Who here has access to the Albanian encyclopedia (post 1992) or books on Vuno (name them so i can get them). Otherwise as per guidelines it cannot be removed at the moment. The Kondo article, though applicable only gives one view. A peer reviewed Albanian source/s would end the matter and then it can be done. Guys you have to look at this through the lens of Wikipedia policy and guidelines and that's how this issue can be dealt with.Resnjari (talk) 13:03, 10 August 2015 (UTC)