Talk:Sonic the Hedgehog 3/Archive 1

Archive 1

Box art

Rattleman thank you for your contribution but in Gods name why change the box art to the American version! What was wrong with my picture? It was a higher resolution as well. Now there are two images of box art floating around Wikipedia and quite needlessly so. I'm sorry but I might change this back unless you can offer me some coherent explanation... I mean, what's the point? --Steerpike 10:18, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I have a bias of sorts to the American box ^^; Most pirates use parts of the version of the box that you posted for their pirate boxes, and it has since been regarded by me as not as good. It doesn't look as professional to begin with, and look: Sonic's holding up FOUR fingers! In the Japanese boxart and the American boxart he holds up three fingers. Plus, I grew up looking at that box whenever I went to go play Sonic. Also...I can't really argue this well it would be better to have the American box as I think that most people that would come to this article would be American. -- RattleMan 22:24, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

So you admit this a clear case of Americocentrism :p For the record, he is holding up three fingers isn't he? You're not counting his right hand though? And if we're going to get sentimental, I grew up watching the European box. And about that last thing: the English speaking world extends quite a bit further beyond the US you know ;)

I think if we really want to be correct we should put the Japanese art since that was the first release. Look, you *can* and *may* put the American Box if you want (since this is after all Wikipedia free to edit for anyone blabla) but I think some changes should be sufficiently justified. Otherwise Wikipedia would get swamped with images (and sometimes I'm wondering how many there are actually in this database allready...). --Steerpike 22:58, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Going down the line: Yes, I am counting his right hand; I understand the English speaking world extends beyond the US (I know maaaaaaany foreigners who speak English, including a Hungarian, Englishman (England), Hungarian, Scotsman, Polish-man, Canadian...the list could go on; I agree with the Japanese boxart but some people might be ignorant and think the Japanese art is fake; I also wonder how many unlinked and unused images there are too. No hard feelings though ^^; Good job with improving various Sonic articles so far. -- RattleMan 23:14, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

What in the world...

Someone gave this page a major change overnight, and while I'm not against such drastic changes (parts of this pages could definitely have used a rewrite), I didn't think Sonic 3 was in such a bad need of this. The new page included way too much info on levels and saving. The stoyline and gameplay have been made a lot longer as well. We should take a look at the best elements of both pages and combine them into one good article. This means neutral, relevant and to-the-point info. --Steerpike 11:26, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Well Wikipedia does encourage you to be bold, which is what I tried. I put the note at the top of this page regarding the wrong development team and storyline in the article over six months ago, and got no feedback, so I thought it was time to have a go at correcting it.

I can understand your concerns over too much info in the article, but I did do a lot of research to flesh or increase detail in parts of it, and to correct several errors, which do need to be addressed.

By all means, anyone have a go at combining the articles, as I'd hate to see some of the information I resoursed and found go to waste. 81.86.34.245 16:23, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

I'll take a look at it tomorrow --Steerpike 01:26, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Still waiting for you to take a look 81.86.34.245 00:10, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry. I was busy :) But I'll make sure to do it this weekend. --Steerpike 22:39, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

External links

I have swapped the links from Wikibooks to my own wiki WikiKnowledge. This is because Master Jimbo has decided that Wikibooks can no longer host video game guides. Gerard Foley 22:05, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Master Emerald & STI

The master Emerald Was never mentioned until Sonic & Knuckles (And as such, Sonic 3 & Knuckles came out) It had nothing to do with the plot of Sonic 3 as a stand-alone game. I think that should be made clearer in the artical.

Also, I believe Sonic team only made Sonic 1 & Sonic CD. Sonic 2 & Sonic 3 were made by Sega Technical Institution in America (See http://ghz.emulationzone.org/team.html, and, if anyone has it, the UK Sonic 2 ofical Walkthrough)

Any thoughts?

--Seeing as ther were no objections, I went a head and made the changes, while I was at it, downloaded a copy of the full article, and re-wrote a lot of it. Please review and change as you think is necessary.

"After the release of Sonic the Hedgehog, Lead Programmer Yuji Naka had grown dissatisfied with the rigid corporate policies at Sega, so he moved to America to work with the Sega Technical Institute. Incidentally, a large number of the original design team of Sonic also left for America, to help instructing the American developers. With half of Sonic Team and two of its most important creators present, the Sega Technical Institute eventually got the job to develop Sonic the Hedgehog 2.

Meanwhile in Japan, Sonic CD was handled by a separate development team, headed by Sonic creator Naoto Ohshima. As both Sonic CD and Sonic 2 were developed independently from each other, each game took a different direction from Sonic 1. Eventually the gameplay of Sonic 2 would be favoured for the future games but this explains why the theme and handling of Sonic CD are different, as well as the use of Sonic 1's sprites for Sonic. The time posts also had pseudo-3D sprites similar to the Knuckles' Chaotix title screen."

From Wikipedia's Sonic CD article. Technically, Sonic 2, 3 and K were made by SEGA Technical Institute but half of the Sonic Team that made Sonic 1, including Yuji Naka, worked on it. Perhaps putting this info in the Sonic 3 article would clear up any problems.

- 137.186.165.143 04:05, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

As I recall, the only game after Sonic 1 to be produced under the Sonic Team was actually Nights into Dreams.

Talking of emeralds before I forget... It says that there are 2 sets of Chaos emeralds, But I've never heard that from the Game itself, the Manuals or the newer recent games. I always thought it was a simpler storyline : Eggman landed on Angel Island - Knuckles has to protect the Master emerald. Eggman tells Knuckles that Sonic is arriving to attack and that Sonic wants the Master emerald. so Knuckles steals the Emeralds from Sonic, knowing of them he seals them away (as his ancestors owned them until they were taken away by the gods and sealed until Sonic 1 and 2) While knuckles was fighting Sonic, it gave Eggman enough time to relaunch his space station the Death Egg, which was critically damaged by Sonic once again, and then this is where the Master Emerald as fuel for the ship came into the storyline. --Tquinnathome1 11:14, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Master Emerald

As previously discussed, Until Sonic & Knuckles/Sonic 3 & Knuckles, there is no mention of the master emerald in the Sonic 3 Storyyline. I have removed that section of the Storyline. 81.137.159.61 11:21, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Wikibooks

I started a book about this game at Wikibooks. Gerard Foley 02:39, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

The old wikibooks guide is now at WikiKnowledge Gerard Foley 18:54, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Trivia

The trivia section is out of control. People have started using it as a dump for obscure tricks that they've discovered. I've deleted the following pieces of trivia for the following reasons:

• The music of Ice Cap Zone (inspired by the Eurodance music of that era) is one of the most frequently remixed video game songs.
  • This piece of trivia was originally edited for its fanboy leanings. Now that it is of a more neutral tone, it doesn’t really say anything. That Ice Cap Zone is ‘one of the most’ frequently remixed videogame songs doesn’t say a lot.

• According to the manual, Knuckles' favourite food is grapes.
  • This is better off in an article about Knuckles.

• Issue #13(August 1994) of the Archie comic book features a story loosely based on Sonic 3.'
  • If it’s only loosely based, then is it really of note?
  • Yes.

• There is a certain way to get to the area where Knuckles presses the trigger in the first zone's boss. To do so, you must play as Tails, and defeat the boss. As the flying encasement facility approches the inside edge of the stationary platform, deactivate it. You will automaticaly run to the center of the bridge. Quickly and repeatedly tap the jump button while you are holding left on the d-pad. If done correctly you will jump off of the bridge and land on the stationary platform. Jump on to the top of the encasement facility, and then begin to fly. Press right on the d-pad. You will find yourself on Knuckles' platform This trick yields nothing.
  • This would be better off on a Hints & Tips website.

There are more pieces of trivia in there that should be deleted, but my conscience is already heavy with having deleted four pieces.

The Michael Jackson section on the other hand is - I think - interesting enough to be worked into its own section of the article, if enough work goes into it.

Drumnbach 13:56, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Completely agreed. A trivia section is nice if it contains four or five additional notes. This one is almost as big as the gameplay section. Keep up the good work! --Steerpike 15:30, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

I split the MJ section earlier today. INVERTED 15:25, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

The trivia section is on the loose again. I really wish it didn't exist at all now. If there is enough info on a particular "trivia" subject in order to be considered relevant I would prefer it to be worked into the article. --Steerpike 10:03, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

proposed Trivia removal/changes

On Sonic the Hedgehog 3's hidden level select screen, the snapshots used to represent each zone are the same ones used in Sonic the Hedgehog 2's level select. Included with them is an icon for Hidden Palace Zone, which was cut from Sonic the Hedgehog 2.

Doesn't seem a major or relevant point to me, without giving more context of the significance of Hidden Palace. suggest removing

The Game Over song used in this game was carried over to Sonic & Knuckles eight months later, and then used again in Sonic 3D Blast, while Sonic the Hedgehog Pocket Adventure has a version of this song transposed up a few notes.

Can be covered by changing the... uh... changes section from:

"the end-of-zone fanfare, used in all games from Sonic the Hedgehog 3 to Sonic 2006 (excluding the Sonic Advance games)"

to:

"Several idents and themes, including the zone end and game over fanfares, that go on to be used in many subsequent Sonic games"

Issue #13(1994) of Archie Comics Sonic the Hedgehog features a story loosely based on the game.

Change to:

"Issues 33 & 34 of Sonic The Comic are and issue #13 of Sonic The Hedgehog are comic adoptions of Sonic 3"

Reportedly a large fan of the anime Dragonball Z, Yuji Naka got his inspiration for Sonic 3's 3D Special Stages from King Kai's small planet at the end of Snake Way.

First time I've heard this. is it sourced/verifiable?

After the Michael Jackson deal fell through, some elements were still left in the game. For instance, when Sonic is left in place for about a minute, he will do what looks like a MJ dance move.

Given he did other interesting moves if left alone in Sonic 1/2/CD, I think this is more a point of coincidence, unless we can source/verify this...

This would leave 5 pieces of relevant, interesting trivia, which I think is OK.

Thoughts & feelings?

81.149.182.210 00:21, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

I'll just copy-paste what I wrote earlier on my talkpage: I've cut out the entire trivia section. I saw little to no value in practically any of them. Either they were too obscure, too speculative, or better placed elsewhere in the article. Information on Wikipedia's Sonic the Hedgehog 3 page should be noteworthy, not trivial. The more curious readers have a wealth of other detailed sites at their disposal in the links section. Agreed? --Steerpike 19:31, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Credits

Is it really necessary to list the full credits of Sonic 3? This is not normally done on movie articles either. A short mention of the most important people involved will suffice imo. --Steerpike 20:38, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

The barrel in Carnival Night

What's this thing about that barrel people keep inserting? I know which part of the level they are referring to but honestly I never had any problems to get past that point. Even if many gamers were purportedly frustrated with this part, I'm sure there was an equal amount of people who didn't have a problem with it. I'd like to see some credible sources regarding this claim. --Steerpike 10:32, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

One has to remember that this was a time before the internets were popular so the only source of infomation was via friends or a monthly magazine or two. So with no redily available solution, it wouln't strike your adverage gamer at that time as Obvious. Conan-san 12:06, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

In Addium: "A later level in the following game, Sonic & Knuckles, Sandopolis Act 2, would receive similar criticisms." What's the issue With Sandopolis Act 2? The Ghosts or what? Or is it the looping sand slide? Conan-san 12:06, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Probably the sandslides. I couldn't get past them my first few times, since I didn't know what to do (and when I did I didn't know which one went where and which I needed to take) but after that it was easy for me. Then I was mad all the time because I always took the one going to the end, not the one to the super ring =). 12.64.12.175 00:25, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

i remember my first play through of sonic 1. i let sonic fall down the water slide on labrynth 3 for 10 minutes —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.252.240.33 (talk) 13:07, 10 May 2007 (UTC).

Box art again

Seems to be an edit war over american vs european box art. needs to be resolved pretty soon. users involved seem to be User:BlazeHedgehog and User:Kevy2004. Gromreaper 15:42, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

When I first updated this article with cover art I chose the European box art. I don't see why the American art is better or more preferable than the other. I argued over this a while back but then somebody changed it anyway. Frankly I can't be bothered to care but for the sake of consistency: let's stick with the American art now. --Steerpike 17:41, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

compromise sugguestion? 81.137.159.61 13:04, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I haven't seen this discussion before my recent edit. I've put both images into the infobox like it was done in Sonic 3D (2 different names). One reason was the different name in Europe (it was mentioned in the introduction, the image was shown later), the other one was the IMHO too large scale of the European cover. The edit wars became less and have even stopped some time after that change was made in Sonic 3D. --32X 17:50, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Manual Errors

I've noticed for a while that, at the end of the game's manual, there are a list of robots ("Badniks," I think they were called...) Anyway, it lists the 2 robots from Flying Battery zone. I always thought this was odd, since they weren't actually in Sonic 3, but in S&K. Maybe it's worth mentioning? Although its a pretty small detail. --Genius314 21:33, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

I guess that'd be too much trivia plus the article is already pretty long. Anyway, here's another Sonic related trivia fact for you: In the manual of the PAL version of Sonic 3D there's the title screen of the NTSC version shown. --32X 00:06, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Nota torus?

Why would the sphere stage be called a torus? 67.185.181.186 22:29, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Because it is, topographically, a torus. It's rendered as a sphere, but it doesn't behave like one: lines normal to each other intersect once, whereas on a sphere, they'd meet twice. On the surface of a sphere, it is possible to take three ninety-degree turns and end up back where you started (for example, one in Singapore, one at the North Pole, and one in Ghana), whereas in the 'sphere' stage it is not. In addition, the sphere stage has no poles, which would be expected when mapping a grid onto a sphere.

Need for Citations

If you have taken a look at the recent editing history, you'll find that I have requested citations in about 7-10 "facts" with regards to information about this game. I'm not trying to seem redundant here, but when dealing with information regarding a product's reception, developement, and release, there has to be some type of external source that can confirm that the events noted are accurate. Personally, I found it absolutely hilarious that one source of criticism of the game is that one of the stages was "too frustrating"; I know for a fact that that particular criticism exists, I remember getting trapped in that one stage. Still, something like that needs to be referenced. The Kensington Blonde T C 16:50, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Best game ever

Sonic the Hedgehog 3: The best game ever :D

I'd have to disagree there, surely Sonic 3 and Knuckles would be better, as it contains both Sonic 3 AND Sonic and Knuckles in one! 172.159.162.5 11:18, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Right here, now or anytime, is NOT the time or place to be arguing about the best game. That's completely opinionative, and Wikipedia isn't a site for that.

Does anyone agree? CatMan 00:29, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

That Sonic 3 is the best game ever? Most certainly not. I just finished playing it and jeez it was absolutely awful compared to 1 and 2. Mind numbingly boring and at parts incredibly frustrating. In the article it says this game was considered to be the best of the 2D Sonic games... where the hell is the proof for such a ridiculous statement? The game is dire! --82.2.80.9 18:40, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

This isn't the place to rant about how much you suck at a game, but yes "best game ever" (for anything) is pure fancruft. 阿修羅96 20:18, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

How funny. Sat through the whole thing and completed it, hence why I can say it was clearly the poorest Sonic out of the first 3. And I know I'm not alone. I get the impression this game has a cult following which these people assume is instead a worldwide recognition that the game was decent. Its a bit of a farce if they're able to dominate Wikipedia and write things like that which would be taken off almost any other page. --82.9.29.178 21:46, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

It's probably just that nobody really noticed it. Video game articles often get this kind of POV nonsense from the fanboys. If I'd noticed it I would have removed it too. And not just because I agree with you about 1&2. :) Miremare 22:02, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Sonic the Hedgehog 3 and Super Smash Bros Brawl

Today they announced that the theme of Angel Island Zone from Sonic the hedgehog 3 would be played in Brawl. Should we mention this? Fangz of Blood 17:40, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

No. There are remixes and reused tunes in games all the time. It's not notable enough to mention. You should know what's notable and what's not. -- RattleMan 05:53, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

I guess you are right, it isn't notable. Fangz of Blood 16:16, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

There's a vast difference between something being notable and something being worthy of inclusion in an article. No-one's suggesting the remixed track have its own article so why is notability being brought up? EvilRedEye (talk) 17:00, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Proposed Changes

Sat down and went over the whole article, and would like to propose making some changes. Please give feedback.

Introduction

• Megata Sanshiro Removed |ソニック・ザ・ヘッジホッグ3|Sonikku za Hejjihoggu Surī}} from the opening paragraph, with the rational "since it was developed in the United States, there's no real reason to mention the Japanese name" - This seems a very US-Centric viewpoint to take. Do we want this part in, or not? Personally I quite like having it in.

• Change "It was developed by American studio Sega Technical Institute in collaboration with Sonic Team" to "It was developed in the United States by members of Sonic Team, working at Sega Technical Institute" to better reflect it's development history

cite: [1]

• Change "Combined, both games have sold over 4 million copies." to "Combined, both games have sold over 3.5 million copies"

Cite: [2] & [3] - these numbers seem a bit low to me, and are lacking detailed figures for non US regions, but it's the best cited source I can find - any got a better one? Edit - older revision of the article [4] has a link to a cite for 4 million copies - Looked for it at the internet archive, but couldn't find it - what do we do here?

Storyline

• Remove Broken cite for the Angel island name retrocon - Replace with cites for Sonic 3 European (And US?) Manual, and Sonic Adventure I, which details both the original name, and it's new name.

Cite: Sonic 3 European Manual & Sonic Adventure (Knuckles Story)

• Remove the "multiple paths for different characters" section from Gameplay, as it's only in Sonic 3 & Knuckles, which is fully explained in the Sonic & Knuckles article.

Overview Of Play

• Change "tapping any controller button twice" to "Pressing the Jump Button twice" to improve clarity.

Zones

• Expand and clarify a little. Something like:

---

Sonic 3 features six Zones (Levels) comprised of two Acts (Stages), with a robotic mini-boss at the end of act 1, and Dr. Robotnik piloting an EggMobile at the end of act 2. The six zones are:

• Angel Island: A tropical beach and jungle which succumbs to a forest fire
• Hydrocity: an ancient, partially submerged complex
• Marble Garden: an overgrown ormential garden
• Carnival Night: A night-time carnival funfair
• IceCap: A series of ice plains and artic caves
• Launch Base: A construction site where Robotnik is overseeing the Death Egg repairs

At the end of Launch Base, Robotnik attacks with two extra EggMobiles, making up the game's final boss.

---

Special Stages

• Remove Sonic 3 & Knuckles parts (20 rings, yellow spheres)
• It says it's a torus - I'm no mathematician, so the above discussion completely confused me - can we get clarification on whether it's a torus, or a chequered sphere?

Multiplayer

• Move the note about Knuckle's glide/climb sprites into development

Reception

• In it's current form, it's virtually useless. Suggest combining cut bits, merge the release section, and cites to make a better section, something like:

---

Sonic 3 was released in the US on February 2, 1994, dubbed "Hedgehog Day", a reference to Groundhog Day. Toys "R" Us rewarded preorders with the limited edition CD Sonic Boom, containing music from and inspired by Sonic CD and Sonic Spinball.

In Europe, Sonic 3 released on February 24, 1994. To help promote the game, right said fred wrote the song Wonderman, referencing many aspects about Sonic the hedgehog. The song was used both in the game adverts, and released as a single. In the music video, both Sonic and Fez and Skull from the Pirate TV Sega ad campaign appeared.

To help support the game launch, issues 33 & 34 of the Fleetway comic, and issue 13 of the Archie comic used elements from Sonic 3 in their own comic adaptions of the game.

Although Sonic 3 did not perform as well as Sonic 2 in terms of sales (6.3 million to 1.8 million), the game was mainly well-received by fans and critics alike, scoring aggregate reviews of above 80%.

---

Sonic Boom CD Cite: [5]

Sales cites: [6] & [7]

Wonderman CD: [8], [9]

Comic Cites - See Comic Issues.

Review cites: [10], [11] & [12]

Music Controversy

• Nothing too drastic - just remove the repeted information about the victory jingle, as it's covered by several musical idents and themes used in most subsequent games from the Gameplay Changes section

Please add or leave comments to judge consensus 81.149.182.210 (talk) 23:30, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Regular Shield

Regular Shield:(Confusion in the manual)

I deleted this. The shield doesn't exist in the game, and so it shouldn't be in the list of Sonic 3 shields.

In sonic 3's manual, they claim there is a regular sheild as there was previously in sonic 2, but this shield never appeared...

I edited this for English. Also, can anybody who owns a Sonic 3 manual confirm this? I've moved this (edited) tidbit to the trivia section, since it doesn't really have much to do with Sonic 3's gameplay. -- Drumnbach 02:22, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

I just checked my (PAL) manual and it has no mention of this at all. I've deleted it and put another bit of trivia in there instead. -- Galvy 21:09, 05 Febuary 2006

What the manual discusses is Sonic's "Instashield" which is the bit of surrounding electricity that occurs when you "double-jump" DJ Kidna (talk) 20:01, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

11/02/09 changes

As it's been 8 months, thought it would be safe to add the above changes in. Also went through and fixed a lot of things in the article.

Summery List:

• Added cites, for all the information I could find
• fixed cite and wiki links, so everything points to somewhere relevant
• Flagged the few dead links where I Couldn't find anything to replace them
• Made proposed changed to Introduction - added in Kanji and Romanization as a reference, changed working on the development teams, added cites.
• Storyline - Minor edits for clarity, fixed links, changed Angel island to Floating island in the text, with the relevant cite - reasoning being if we're saying Dr. Robotnik, and Chaos power flying islands, as was correct when the game shipped, for consistency the island note should be that way around.
• Removed Sonic & Knuckles section, as it's explained in the Sonic 3 & Knuckles section of the S&K Article
• Gameplay - Flagged dead link, minor edits for clarity
• Fixed links
• Just noticed - my spell-check slipped in the UK English spelling of favorite - can be changed if anyone feels inclined
• Gameplay overview - minor re-write on player setup, to make clearer
• Added in a - very brief - mention of the elemental shields: Know this got out of hand in some older revisions, but I think they merit a two sentence line...
• Changed Levels section, as proposed on talk page
• Special stage - special stage section was larger than the gameplay, levels, and overview sections put together. Took out some unnecessary detail, boiled it down to a more concise form, which I think is both more proportional to it's importance, and is easier to read.
• Still no idea whether it's a sphere or a torus - flagged it, and gonna leave that one to a passing mathematician or engineer....
• Multiplayer - Minor wording changes, with added detail for modes and levels, to match the zones section.
• Changed section title to Development and Technical Information to better reflect content
• Added and verified lots of cites, which gave a few drops more of information.
• Switched the sections around a bit, so the topic flows better.
• found a working specsheet for the CMOS Chip
• Changed the paragraph about prototypes from a paragraph to a sentence, which links to Sonic Retro's extensive coverage of the prototypes, so anyone that wants more in-depth info can go straight there
• Combined Release and Reception, with new and deleted information to make one worthwhile section
• Re-wrote, as per discussed in the talk page
• Updated ports & Re-releases section, as the collection set is out now. Added an upcoming game and cite request for the PSN/Xbox live versions.
• Music controversy - didn't change a single letter in the main section. I'm not that stupid ^_~
• Changed the last paragraph from an unclear part about Sonic 3's boss music to an article asking Yuji Naka directly about it.
• External links updated to all working links.

Phew. That took a while. Still, Wikipedia does encourage you to be bold, which is what I tried, and I did wait a long time for any objections. Comments/suggestions welcome, but a lot of good work went into this, so please don't just hit revert.

I left the note about cites, as there are a few problematic sections:

- A Few claims I could not find cites for, and sounded a little odd, which I marked as dubious for someone to give input - 1 external dead link I couldn't replace - Started a discussion on the Dr. Robotnik page to get some input on the creations section, that the EggMobile section linked to - input would be great - Talk:Doctor Eggman#Creations section - Level section disappeared from Sonic & Knuckles article. if after a while, no one objects to what I did with just the levels section in this article, I'll put together something like that for S&K

81.149.182.210 (talk) 04:40, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Boxart

Once again, revision wars with the boxart.

Can we gain some consensus on this, please. This time, WP:FU was listed. Putting aside the fact that using the US Boxart "Because it was there first" does not represent a worldwide viewpoint, I Do not see this being relevant, as the two different boxarts display and illustrate both the two different names the game goes under in the English language, and the two different "Systems" it is played on. As a counterpoint, many album and single wikipedia articles illustrate special edition, regional, or alternative covers (examples: Paint it black, The Black Parade), without violating WP:FU.

My personal preference is to have both covers illustrated as before, as it clearly shows the two different game and system names, the different age ratings and systems, illustrate the contrast between regions, and as it has been fairly consistent, stop revision wars. 81.137.159.61 (talk) 17:30, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

WP:FU would go against using both here. There is no real difference. As for why I suggested using the US one is because both images are OK to use, but the US image was up first and the game out here before the other one. I can't see any reason to use the UK cover, that does not represent a worldwide view either, the image was uploaded after the US image, and the game came out after it did in the US.

Those 2 examples probably violate FU too. I am also gonna cite the WP:VG guidelines, which say to use just 1 image (with exceptions for articles like Pokemon Red and Blue, which would show the Red cover and Blue cover). It's not a big deal to me, just thought I would explain why I made the edit. TJ Spyke 18:08, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Some thoughts on the state of the article

81.137.159.61 asked me to add to the talk page about the music controversy section which I tagged as possible original research, but I'd quite like to put a few comments down here if I may:

• How reliable is VGChartz? As I understand it, other more reliable sources are preferred, are there any available?
  • An older version of the article cited 4 million, but with a dead link. 81.137.159.61 (talk) 17:18, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
• Having checked the links to GiantBomb, it looks like another Wiki - why are we using another editable Wiki to reference information in this one? One could quite easily add whatever information they like to it and then justify it as a source here. These ought to be removed.
  • WP:VG guidelines: Do not use the user contributed content from the site's article/database section for citations. Hence, these references ought to be removed.
• There's a lot of development information which has clearly come from the Sonic hacking community. I appreciate their dedication, but it's original research for the purposes of Wikipedia and would probably be best off left to being detailed on those sites.
• Is "glitch" information and "unusual quirks" interesting to the wider audience, or just that bit too over-specific?
• This link has lots of cuttings from magazines and so on which would be invaluable for referencing development and reception information, provided magazine and issue details can be found. In preference, the images should not be linked to directly - a cite template would be more in keeping with Wikipedia guidelines, and the URL parameter could link to the page screenshot (though it should not be the only thing cited, as it is now).
• Mobygames has plenty of review scores, so use of the VG Reviews template might be an option to collate the scores. Creating a proper reception section using quotes from reviews (if we could get them) to concisely show what reviews did and didn't like would help, and any comparing the game to its predecessors would make for interesting information on the critics' views.
• Music controversy is very much original research; if it hasn't been documented by reliable gaming sites it simply shouldn't be on here. The given audio samples invite the reader to make their own judgement call and see if it corresponds to the editors' subjective viewpoint on their similarity. This is something to be documented in a fan site or some such, not on Wikipedia.
  • Someone blanked that section. Would of been nice if they could have explained it on the talk page. I think the quote from Yuji Naka, which comes from a reputable source, should stay, if nothing else to clearly show the amount of debate the topic causes. 81.137.159.61 (talk) 17:18, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Just a few things to be going on with. SynergyBlades (talk) 19:01, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

VG Chartz is not reliable at all and are to be avoided per WP:VG. Even if you can't find another source for sales, it still gets removed. TJ Spyke 22:31, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Ok.. For the last time.

Unless someone has some sort of proof otherwise, the Micheal Jackson track "Stranger in Moscow" was created AFTER Sonic 3's debut. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.122.48.172 (talk) 19:25, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Actually, Michael Jackson wrote Stranger In Moscow in 1993. He has said in an interview (or several) that he wrote the song whilst on tour. It is believed, and perhaps confirmed, that he wrote the song whilst in a hotel room in Moscow on the Dangerous tour (15/09/1993).Chrisc21 (talk) 03:07, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

That's the point; that the soundtrack, composed by Michael Jackson's songwriting team, has a marked similarity to (and therefore likely had an influence on) certain Jackson songs that appeared later. Miremare 20:25, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

People like to assume however that Sonic 3 flat out references MJ tunes, and that any MJ involvement involved snippits of his songs. It's actually quite a necessary distinction.70.122.48.172 (talk) 02:58, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to add a mention of the "Ice Cap Zone" music vs "Who Is It" music into the appropriate section. It's also much more obvious then the "Carnival Zone" music vs "JAM" focus.Reinoe (talk) 15:32, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Changes as of 13/03/06

In response to the recent changes made by 81.86.34.245 (and me reverting them), and the subsequent discussion to improve the article by combining the best elements of the old and new article (see above), I've given this article a new overhaul. In terms of introduction, storyline, gameplay and technical specifications, I retained most of the edits made by 81.86.34.245. They were very well written indeed! The level section however I kept to its original length. I see no use in adding this much info. We have Wikibooks to include such details. I figure that any casual user browsing this article will be swamped with enough useless game-info already (and may only be interested in sales or technical specifications) so we should do our best to limit it. Here's a full list of changes:

• Introduction, storyline, gameplay and technical specifications rewritten in accordance with changes made by 81.86.34.245
• 3rd person rewrites
• Italizing Sonic game titles.
• Removed the wikitable in the Technical Specifications. A single sentence is enough to cover those details.
• Added the "References" segment and sorted the links.

--Steerpike 23:36, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

In what universe do you live in when March is the 13th month of the year?!? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Saprissy (talk • contribs) 16:07, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Assessment

Assessed as C; Reception does not actually cover any critical reception, only sales-related information; some content is unsourced; gameplay should be chopped down to reduce guide content; contains bare references. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 10:31, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Michael Jackson (Again)

The whole Michael Jackson thing has sneaked in again. Personally, I'm not fussed if it's in or not; some eveidence exists, and it sounds plausiable, but I know some people are very against it, So can we gain a consensus on wether to keep Jacko out, or let him sneak in again 213.123.236.205 16:43, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm for letting it stay. If you ask me, there's more than enough evidence to the side that Michael Jackson, at least his sound team, was at one point involved in the production of Sonic 3's music. BlazeHedgehog 09:48, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Meh, the link to that Youtube video needs to cease to exist and be replaced with the Sonic Cult page if anything is to be made out of it. We reached a consensus in the earlier discussion on this page but idiots keep re-adding the MJ thing to the article with the video as the ends-all source. The Youtube video does not provide solid enough evidence by itself. I'm changing the link to the page on Sonic Cult. Also, the person who wrote that part didn't realize that the track similarities off HiStory (Stranger in Moscow) was created AFTER Sonic 3 was released. 70.122.45.116

I have found the news that MJ WAS a fan of Sonic after all. Link--Angeldeb82 (talk) 22:03, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

There had been rumors about it for a long time, but recently,Those rumors were proven true.but that's not all.according to an anonomous person who works for Sega,Sonic's shoes were inspired by MJ's album,Bad. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.169.89.166 (talk) 20:04, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Carnival Night Zone music

Is the music in Carnival Night Zone a version of the Sabre Dance (often called "circus music" by people)? Sierraoffline444 (talk) 16:15, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Ice Cap Zone BGM

*The background music for the Ice Cap Zone is widely considered by fans to be the best piece of music in Sonic's history, and one of the best tunes of any video game. Because of its popularity, it has been remixed to death, with hundreds of remixes of it available on the Internet.

This seems a bit biased, especially where it states that it is one of the best tunes of any videogame. I have edited this for POV. -- Drumnbach 00:29, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

He never stated that it was a fact... just an opinion held by some fans...

This isn't a site for fans, this is an encyclopedia. The reason it has so many remixes is the way the song is constructed, it is INCREDIBLY EASY to remix. So while people may make remix it more than other songs, that doesn't give it merit as the best song. The use of "hundreds" is also an exaggeration and has no evidence to back it up. --Shadix

Exactly, the chord progression in the Ice Cap theme is so simple, I've done several recordings with similar chord progressions. Quite frankly, I think this song is the least catchy of the entire Sonic 3 soundtrack. Although, in a nostalgic sense, I do understand why people like it so much. -- Mr. Justan

Go to www.vgmusic.com or the OCRemix website and see how many remixes exist and keep getting composed. Sierraoffline444 (talk) 16:18, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Hyper Sonic, Super Tails and Hyper Knuckles?

Why is this not mentioned that when you collect all 7 emeralds from Sonic 3 and Sonic and Knuckles (14 total) Super Sonic becomes Hyper Sonic, Super Knuckles becomes Hyper Knuckles and Tails can become Super Tails? -- 68.165.90.178

It isn't? Then maybe you could add it to the article, PROPERLY...阿修羅96 18:27, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Because they don't: This only happens in Sonic 3 & Knuckles 80.45.79.15 14:53, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually he becomes Hyper Tails, an old issue of Sega Visions exists when Sonic And Knuckles came out that says "Hyper" rather than super. I had this argument with my brother for years and turns out I won. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.244.35.180 (talk) 03:12, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

You lost. Play the game as Tails; he's clearly named Super Tails.Chebghobbi (talk) 23:46, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Torus?

I see that the part of the article describing special stages as being based on a torus has been asked about several times here. I’m not sure whether this statement is correct or not, but I have another question about it: are there any sources which state that the special stages are shaped this way? If there aren’t, then whether this statement is correct or not it’s original research and ought to be removed. --Captain Occam (talk) 12:43, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Level order

I was wondering if the level order was changed when the game was split. I noticed that even though the first level of "Sonic & Knuckles" came after the last level of Sonic 3, it still had had the challenge of a first level, when it would logically be thought that the difficulty would be increased. Also, muchroom hill seems like it should come after Angel Island because of theming similarities. Was the difficulty of S&K changed, the lever order changed, or niether? Allyourbasearebelongtousomg 00:03, 17 October 2007 (UTC) The order didn't change, it just went through Sonic 3, then into S&K. There was no difference in difficulty between playing the games 'locked on' and separately, but Sonic & Knuckles was a noticeably harder game than Sonic 3 do the difficulty curve sort of dipped then carried on as before.Omega cyber turnip (talk) 02:52, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Development

query: this statement below under "development" in the main article is highly speculative and derived from rumours and unconfirmed facts. Do you think parts or all of this section should be omitted? rgds, Avatera (talk) 16:54, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

"According to STI director Roger Hector, Michael Jackson was brought in initially during development to compose music for the game, but no mention of his involvement was included. This was supposedly due to the scandals that arose around Jackson at the time, his involvement was removed from the title, and much reworking had to be done.[12] These claims are dubious, however, and various interviews have made it clear that any involvement Jackson may have had was done without the knowledge of Sega's executives or marketing staff, and no contracts or formal agreements had ever been made.[13] James Hansen, of Sonic Stuff Research Group, retorts that Cirocco (credited as "Scirocco" in Sonic 3) still has possession of presumably a demo version of fabled soundtrack. "I actually have "ALL" of the tracks...," he writes, "from the original humming of Michael calling in the middle of the night leaving messages, to his ideas at Record One with Matt and Bruce. - BUT, I don't think I can let any of that out to the public without permission." [13] In December 2009, Michael Jackson's composer, Brad Buxer, told French magazine Black & White that Jackson was actually involved with some of Sonic 3's compositions, supposedly not being credited because he wasn't happy with how they sounded, due to the lack of optimal sound reproduction on the Genesis. Buxer also claimed that the ending music of Sonic the Hedgehog 3 later became the basis for Jackson's single Stranger in Moscow.[1]

Michael Jackson (Continued...)

Why people keep adding his name to this article is beyond me. There is no evidence that anything he possibly wrote was put in this game at all... as well as people comparing his songs to it.. most of which were released after sonic 3 was,also nah I'll keep deleting it forever because it does not belong on the page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by AtaxiaTheSadist (talk • contribs) 19:29, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

I'll keep deleting it forever (...). Very nice. Look, before we have to request a lock in the article to avoid an edit war, maybe you should read the second paragraph in the 'Development' section. In light of the revelations by Brad Buxer, it was decided to add Michael Jackson to the composer list, something that otherwise was considered a given by many people with all the evidence pointing to such involvement. Just because you don't think he wasn't involved doesn't mean you can have your way with the article, things don't work like that in the Wikipedia.--Lashiec (talk) 03:48, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

MTV is considered a reliable source; this satisfies the needed criteria to include the assertion of MJ's involvment, made by StH3's own main composer Brad Buxer, in the article - http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1627664/20091204/jackson_michael.jhtml . CIGraphix (talk) 04:19, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

"I've never played the game so I do not know what tracks on which Michael and I have worked the developers have kept" means that while MTV may be a reliable source, Brad Buxor is not. How can he assert the claim that Michael Jackson contributed to the Soundtrack if he does not know what ended up in it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.203.230.169 (talk) 22:06, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

That diagram thing

Do we really need that diagram explaining the mechanics of the special stages? As far as I recall, Wikipedia tends to frown upon 'strategy guide' elements in video game articles.Wonchop (talk) 03:14, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

I was torn on this as well. On one hand, it's kind of gameguide-like. On the other hand, it's actually pretty hard to understand the the concept of the special stage without it, for people who have never played the game before. Text-alone, it doesn't make much sense. That's why I left it in there... Sergecross73 msg me 03:16, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

Observation...

Composers also are artists! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 177.177.243.120 (talk) 13:49, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

What about it? Sergecross73 msg me 14:28, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Yellow Spheres

I don't recall any yellow sphere in Sonic 3's special stages. As far as I can remember they only appear in Sonic & Knuckles. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.49.66.251 (talk) 23:43, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

Nobody showed up in two months, editing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.49.91.51 (talk) 15:24, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

Micheal Jackson.

Youtube user Streak used a Vinesauce Corrupter on a Sonic 3 ROM & one of the corruptions did some peculiar stuff to the music. The Death Egg Zone's music was almost nothing but Micheal Jackson's "oooh!" The corruption may have swapped music placement, so it could actually be from Launch Base Zone, which actually does have shouting in the music. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woJmrxuvZo8 7:52. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:8:B580:4EF:7095:B443:C134:B739 (talk) 09:15, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, this is pretty silly to think MJ had something to do with Death Egg Zone because of a corrupted rom playing a wrong sample in a song. If anybody cares to know more about the Sonic 3 music situation though, contact me. I would have put what I've learned on Wikipedia, but most of it would qualify as original research without a direct source. - Dissident93 01:20, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Sonic the Hedgehog 3/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: PresN (talk · contribs) 21:28, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Review will be up in a day or two. --PresN 21:28, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

PresN, still planning on finishing? Tezero (talk) 18:12, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Yes, been busy this weekend. --PresN 19:03, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Sorry for taking so long; life's been busy. Here's this; I'll get to your review of my FAC when I can.

Lead

• Sonic the Hedgehog 2 is redirecting

• Done. Tezero (talk) 00:53, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

• "However, this concept was abandoned..." - second half of the sentence is awkward; would be better as "However, this concept was abandoned early into development as the team did not want to change the Sonic formula too radically for a sequel." Sonic should be italicized since you're talking about he games (and their common elements), not the character

• Done. Tezero (talk) 00:53, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

• Second paragraph is a bit strange- you say it's a commercial success (and it is), but then say it "only" sold 1 million copies compared to 21 million for the last two combined; try to reword it to make it clear that 1 million is still really good, just not as phenomenal as the last two

• Done, and reworded. Tezero (talk) 00:53, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

• Re-reworded. --PresN 02:31, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

• GameCube is redirecting

• Done. Tezero (talk) 00:53, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Plot

• Robotnik, Sonic 2, and Super Sonic are redirecting

• Done all. Tezero (talk) 00:53, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

• Tails and Sonic are never linked here; you should link things the first time they are used outside the lead as well as in the lead

• Done. Tezero (talk) 00:53, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

• "He is also..." - 'he' is ambiguous here, specify it's Knuckles

• Done, and reworded. Tezero (talk) 00:53, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

• Italicize the Tornado, since it's the name of an airplane (MOS:ITALICS)

• Done. Tezero (talk) 00:53, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

• "Sonic travels to a platform on the Death Egg, fights, and defeats..." - better phrased as "Sonic travels to a platform on the Death Egg, and fights and defeats Robotnik..."

• Used "Egg, where he" since the comma technically wouldn't be grammatically correct. Tezero (talk) 00:53, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

• "Island - leading" - should be an mdash (—), not a hyphen

• Done. Tezero (talk) 00:53, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Gameplay

• You need to specify early on here that the game is split up into levels, with two acts each level; as it is, readers must infer it from when you mention the bosses at the end of each act

• What? But it says that: "The game takes place over six levels ... each divided into two acts". Tezero (talk) 00:53, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

• Apparently I need to work on my reading comprehension. Or get more sleep. --PresN 02:31, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

• "2D, side-scrolling" - no comma

• Done. Tezero (talk) 00:53, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

• "Through the latter choice" - In the latter choice

• Done. Tezero (talk) 00:53, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

• (facetious) where the heck do the badniks come from, if Robotnik just crashed in a small aircraft?!

• Hmm, never thought about that. I assume they get around and cause mischief wherever they please, given their presence in some games in locations where Eggman never appears. Tezero (talk) 00:53, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Development

• "were mainly responsible" - "were the main creator of"; this changes the meaning to be that the design doc was mostly by them, instead of that they mostly worked on the design doc (and not much else)

• Agreed; done. Tezero (talk) 17:29, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

• Mention that the game was made by, you know, Sega

• Done. Tezero (talk) 17:29, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

• ", after the team" - "as the team", like the lead

• Done. Tezero (talk) 17:29, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

• "However, as time constraints" - this sentence wobbles on and on; split it in half

• Done. Tezero (talk) 17:29, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

• non-volatile RAM is redirecting

• Done. Odd; I've never seen a hyphen between the R and A before. Tezero (talk) 17:29, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

• "The song was used both in the game adverts, and released as a single" -> "The song was both used in the game adverts and released as a single"

• Done, and rephrased for AmE. Tezero (talk) 17:29, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

• "James Hansen of Sonic Stuff Research Group states" - "has stated"

• Done. Tezero (talk) 17:29, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

• Even in direct quotes, you still cut out the all caps - "ALL, BUT" -> "all, but"

• Really? I believe you, but where'd you get that? Tezero (talk) 17:29, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

• I had it slightly wrong; MOS:QUOTE says to basically strip all text formatting that's not in the WP style; it does, however, say that words that are all-caps'd for emphasis you can replace it with italics or bold ("other unusual forms of emphasis (colored highlighting, all caps or small caps, etc.) should likewise generally be normalized to italics or boldface")

Ports

• GameCube is redirecting again

• Done. Tezero (talk) 17:29, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

• The first paragraphs is one sentence; merge it with the next

• Done. Tezero (talk) 17:29, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

• The first sentence/paragraph splits up the elements with semicolons... except when it uses commas - "Sonic & Garfield Pack (1999) for the PC,[32] Sonic..."

• Done that one, but didn't notice any others. Tezero (talk) 17:29, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

• "but does not track progress in the game post-completion..." - I have no idea what this means. Can you play the game post-completion? You haven't mentioned that before...

• Rephrased for clarity. Where should I mention it that you can play the game after beating it, though? That's a pretty standard feature. Tezero (talk) 17:29, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Reception

• "Similarly to its predecessors" - "Like its predecessors" (or "similar to", similarly is an adverb but Sonic 3 is a noun)

• Done. Tezero (talk) 17:29, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

• Consensus now is to roll GameRankings to the nearest whole percentage (78%, not 78.33%), since the inputs are whole percentages at best; it's all sigfigs if you took high school chemistry. Related to this- it's optional but nice if you append "(X reviews)" in the table after the MC and GR scores to say how many reviews went into that average.

• Rounded. I've always assumed it was merely an issue of giving too much detail for the reader, which I've always thought was ridiculous but didn't feel like challenging. Technically sig-figs shouldn't matter since you're adding the totals, not multiplying them, but I see the point - I'd rather not include the number of reviews, though, since it's a slightly volatile total and could call into question why we're including these reviews and not others. Tezero (talk) 17:29, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

• Sega Magazine is redirecting (also in the table)

• And in the citation - done all. Tezero (talk) 17:29, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

• "...better special stages and is not only..." - tense conflict with the rest of the sentence, should be "was not only"

• Done. Tezero (talk) 17:29, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

• "Thomas stated that..." - restate who Thomas is; the last time you mentioned him it was in the context of the remakes but now it's the original game. Same for Whitehead.

• Done. Tezero (talk) 17:29, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

• Don't start a paragraph with "however"- there's nothing for it to play off of. The "also" makes it even worse. Start he paragraph "Some critics felt Sonic 3 had innovated too little from previous Sonic games."

• Done. Tezero (talk) 17:29, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

• Optional: I've already forgotten who Humphries is. Consider changing the bare names to be "Humphries of Hyper" or "Hyper's Humphries" or "Hyper reviewer Humphries" or "Writing for Hyper, Humphries said", etc.

• Done the first. Tezero (talk) 17:29, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

• "enjoyed its new power-ups" - its is ambiguous, try just "the new power-ups"

• Done. Tezero (talk) 17:29, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

• "Many aspects of the game's level design were praised. Electronic" - JimmyBlackwing just sharpened his knives at the thought of this at FAC. Replace the period with a semicolon. Same for the other bare statements like this, but this one jumped out at me as easy to modify

• Originated as that last part being a separate paragraph; you wouldn't connect a topic sentence to the first piece of evidence using a semicolon. Done, though. Tezero (talk) 17:29, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

• "use of wordless cutscenes to effect a coherent story" - props for using "effect" correctly as a verb, but "create" would be cleaner

• Is it that rare? Erm, done. Tezero (talk) 17:29, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

• "well received, though somewhat less so" - than what? The visuals?

• Yeah, done. Tezero (talk) 17:29, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Legacy

• "Issues 33 and 34 of Sonic the Comic, and issue 13" - no comma

• Done ☯ Jaguar ☯ 19:31, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

• "For Sonic's twentieth anniversary" - italics

• Done ☯ Jaguar ☯ 19:31, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

References

• Pretty sure it's Nintendo Life, not NintendoLife

• Fixed ☯ Jaguar ☯ 19:31, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

• Redirects for GameSetWatch, US Gamer, and Sega Magazine if you want to fix them

• All fixed ☯ Jaguar ☯ 19:31, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

• Magazine references really need publishers, and ISSNs if you can get them

• Done. I also noticed that Game Revolution and Kotaku weren't linked for some reason; might've been because those references were copied and pasted from Sonic 1 or 2, where they corroborated the same information, and in that article they weren't the first instances of sources from those sites. Tezero (talk) 21:56, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

• If you're only going to link the first use of a site in the references, make sure it is the first- refs 29/30, for example

• Fixed that one and another extra link of GamesRadar I saw. Tezero (talk) 21:56, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

• Is... is US Gamer just EuroGamer with a reskin job? Huh.

• US Gamer is a division of Eurogamer, so I've just redirected all links to Eurogamer ☯ Jaguar ☯ 19:31, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

• Ref 54- The Magic Box is not an RS. Their methodology for figuring out game sales numbers is suspect as best, and "magic" at worst

Images

• All three non-free images need better rationales - specifically, they need a better/longer explanation of why that image is adding to the article, beyond "it's a shot of the gameplay" "it's a shot of the special stages" - check any video game FA for examples

• Alright, PresN, done with that and, if I'm not mistaken, with everything now. Tezero (talk) 18:34, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

--PresN 04:59, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

For what its worth, "The Magic Box" is currently identified as a WP:RS at WP:VG/S. I've always used them in the past and had no problem, though I can't say I've dug real deep into it or anything. Sergecross73 msg me 18:01, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

I was gonna say; if it's somehow not an RS, it needs to be stricken from a lot more locations than here. Tezero (talk) 18:38, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Wait, TMB is an RS? Why did I think it wasn't? I don't know how I combined it in my head with VGChartz, but I guess I did somehow. Striking that line. --PresN 18:56, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

GA: Pass! --PresN 19:31, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Another Michael Jackson source

• Albeit an excellent one: http://testkitchen.huffingtonpost.com/michaeljacksonsonic/

czar 15:46, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

• • Thanks for this. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 22:14, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
  • EDIT: @Czar: I attempted to add this to the main Michael Jackson article, but it keeps getting reverted because "it's not new". Did I do something wrong, or is this user just removing it for no real reason? ~ Dissident93 (talk) 03:31, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

Maybe because it isn't exactly new info that we know Michael composed for the soundtrack for the game. Still it should be added (if it hasn't already), as it further confirms his involvement from those who worked closely to him at the time and who are credited on the game. Jimbob2014 (talk) 15:23, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

• The source was added to the end of the first paragraph in the section. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 22:36, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

IceCap

Another very small issue, but I'm curious: how do we know it's IceCap and not Ice Cap? Popcornduff (talk) 03:31, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

The accepted rendering of "Hydrocity" and "IceCap" appears to be derived from Sega's instruction manuals.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 04:14, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

They both come directly from the instructional booklet. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 20:30, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

Including a mention on Knuckles' Chaotix

I think there should be a mention on KC for this reason: The Sonic the Hedgehog 2 pages and Sonic Adventure 2 pages mention the Tails spin-offs (Tails' Skypatrol and Tails Adventure) and Shadow the Hedgehog, respectively. Knuckles was introduced in Sonic 3, and received his own spin-off as well; I think info on this could be included. ~ TheJoebro64 (talk) 19:25, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

I think the question should be "is any of this worth mentioning?" I mean, every single one of these games, except Shadow, were extremely minor, obscure releases. The Knuckles and Tails spinoffs are all very minor entries in the series. They seem to be more of something to be mentioned in the series article than any sort of "direct lineage" from Sonic 2 or Sonic 3. Sergecross73 msg me 19:33, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

That's my argument for not including it as well; the sentence already states that he features prominently in future games, the exact ones don't need to be mentioned. Shadow is the only game that I'd mention like this; games like Skypatrol and Choatix are non-important to the series overall (and especially to Sonic 2 and 3, where this info is going). Keep this info to the character articles only. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 19:38, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

True, they were all minor releases, like attempts to use Sonic's popularity to squeeze out an extra dollar. Chaotix was only re-released once, if the article is correct... ~ TheJoebro64 (talk) 19:39, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

And don't worry, there's still plenty of other ways for readers to find their way to the spinoff games if they want to know more about them - the legacy section mentions they kept in on the series, and then right below it is the the Sonic template at the bottom of the page lists every Sonic game that has an article, so they can jump there from that. They're also indirectly linked at the series article, the character articles, and the "list of Sonic game" type articles, which are also linked throughout. Sergecross73 msg me 19:59, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

Sonic 3 Limited Edition

Could we add some info on this? It was a planned version of the game with all the S&K levels and Knuckles included, but was cancelled. Sonic Retro's got a couple of old magazine articles about it (it was covered by the press). ~ TheJoebro64 (talk) 20:07, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

Well, how much can be wrote about it other than it was planned and ultimately canceled? Nothing else is known about the version. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 20:19, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

There are a few leaked prototype versions of the game; I'll see what I can find about them. ~ TheJoebro64 (talk) 20:25, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

If you can find an RS that discusses it some, then go for it, but I don't see it really expanding other than a sentence or two in the development section stating "There was plans for this but it didn't happen", and maybe a reason why if that could be found out. Sergecross73 msg me 20:36, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

Just from what I've been able to gather, there was no official reason for it being canceled, it was simply planned and never came to fruition. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 04:33, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

Assuming we have good sources, a sentence saying the game was planned but canceled is worth including. No need for anything else. Popcornduff (talk) 05:24, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

Isometric origins in lead

Yes, this point is true. No, it doesn't need to be in the WP:LEAD. It's important to cover, but it's a very small part of the game's history. All they had was like a mockup concept piece or two. It was merely a very early idea they had, little to no actual development effort went towards actually creating that version of the game. It's split and co-development with Sonic & Knuckles is a massive part of its history and creation. The isometric ideas very early on? No so much. It's an WP:UNDUE issue to mention so prominently. Sergecross73 msg me 12:10, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

Oh, I see. My bad. ~ TheJoebro64 (talk) 12:54, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

Photo

I think it'd be nice to have a photo of the Sonic 3 and Knuckles cartridges attached to each other. It would make the lock-on concept very easy to understand. Anyone have the means to take a photo? Popcornduff (talk) 13:30, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

There's a photo at Sonic & Knuckles#Development, but it doesn't quite express exactly what you're describing, which I admit sounds better. I could have sworn there was an image like that years ago, but I could be wrong (or maybe it was deleted for not meeting the image policy, who knows.) Personally, my cartridges are locked away in a location not especially close to me at the moment, so I'm unable to help with new images. Sergecross73 msg me 13:47, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

Actually, I recall seeing a photo too. Must have been killed for copyright. Popcornduff (talk) 13:48, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

It was deleted as being a derivative work (Wikipedia:Possibly_unfree_files/2014_May_15#File:Sega_Genesis-_Sonic_&_Knuckles_locked_on_to_Sonic3.jpg). JOEBRO64 19:56, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

Did deleting it really make the article better? (by a single person's opinion too) And if it was a picture taken by somebody without copyrights, then shouldn't free-use trump any of the other guidelines? I've always hated the overzealous image policies here. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 19:58, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

Maybe we could try and request for it to be undeleted. JOEBRO64 20:12, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

Go for it. Is there no time limit on how far back they can recover deleted media? ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 21:10, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

Knowledge of how copyright stuff works on Wikipedia is one of my weak areas, but I think there's a strong argument to be made for the image. Popcornduff (talk) 03:12, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

I've put in a request to have it undeleted: Wikipedia:Requests_for_undeletion#File:Sega_Genesis-_Sonic_&_Knuckles_locked_on_to_Sonic3.jpg

Developers

So round three of this debate has came up, saying that Sonic Team as the game's developer, which most sources have considered it to be for 20+ years, is wrong, and that it should be Sega Technical Institute, a primarily American division (although the staff is basically 100% Japanese, outside of Michael Jackson's sound crew). My only issue with it is we're taking two or three sources over the longtime majority, which feels wrong to me, even if it's been confirmed by a few people who indirectly worked on the game. Thoughts? ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 23:58, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

The thing is, I've looked through most of the contemporary coverage of Sonic 3 and Sonic & Knuckles and none of them actually credit Sonic Team, either just "Sega" or "Sega of America". Roger Hector (head of STI) was manager of the project (meaning he was basically in charge). He confirms that STI made the game in both the SOST interview and GamesTM feature sourced in the article. I think we need to figure out how long Sonic Team's really been around, because there are sources out there that say they had nothing to do with games they're credited to. JOEBRO64 00:42, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

We had that other discussion though, that showed that they didn't really call it "Sonic Team" very consistently until they moved on to other non-Sonic projects like Nights into Dreams. And in compilation releases, don't they list Sonic Team? I'm not necessarily against listing STI, but it seems like Sonic Team is too. Perhaps both should be listed? Sergecross73 msg me 01:36, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

I'd rather we just go with Sega then, because you are claiming STI is the developer and arguing against Sonic Team using the same logic. And Sonic Team (as a branding for the series) has been around since the very first Sonic game on the Genesis, which is why this is even being debated. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 04:54, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

Although NiGHTs was the first game to popularize the "Sonic Team" name and logo (Sonic 1's opening "Sonic Team presents" notwithstanding), not many people know that it, too, was developed at STI: "Naka himself wasn't done with the Institute, and while he did leave for a well-deserved break after completing Sonic & Knuckles, he returned a few months later to begin working on a game that would strangely bear no signs of ever being done at the STI: NIGHTS: Into Dreams. During his time off, Naka had become acquainted with the Saturn hardware, and he now felt it was time for Sonic Team to move off from its namesake and into new properties, as well as push the Saturn's 3D capabilities further. NIGHTS presented the perfect opportunity for this. Sega gave Naka's group complete freedom in designing and building this new game, and the result was the first 32-bit title created at the STI. NIGHTS was a hit, though it wasn't enough to save the Saturn." I'm wondering if TheJoebro thinks we should change the Nights article as well?TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 09:11, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

I find these old interviews fascinating, but if Sega applies the Sonic Team name to these games, then so should we. It should be supplemental info, not replacement info. Sergecross73 msg me 14:32, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

If my understanding is correct, Nights into Dreams was STI's idea, but Naka and the others moved from America back to Japan to make it while the rest of STI made Sonic X-treme. I do remember reading a 1992 interview with Yuji Naka in which he said the Sonic Team that developed Sonic 1 got absorbed by STI to develop Sonic 2—so should we treat the Japanese side of STI as Sonic Team? JOEBRO64 14:38, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

I believe that's what we've been doing... Claiming a game with a staff of 95% Japanese (Sonic 3 and S&K) to be the work of an American based-and-lead division is silly. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 03:59, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

Well, it was developed in America by a studio started by Americans with an American leader and mostly American composers. (including an American cultural icon) JOEBRO64 11:06, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

Sonic 3 was developed in America? Then why does the staff list consist of mostly Japanese members of Sega of Japan/Sonic Team? And Jackson was not the only composer on the game, and even if he was, that doesn't mean the game was developed in Japan. (sources in this very article even state he sent over demo tapes back to Japan, meaning that's where the primarily development took place). ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 21:28, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

The team that moved to America after Sonic 1 worked at STI until Sonic & Knuckles was completed. If you've read the Sonic X-treme and STI articles, you'd know that. JOEBRO64 21:32, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

Page 77 of this source: "When we released Sonic in 1991, Sonic Team appeared as a team name. It was with NiGHTS that the name became a true brand". This confirms Sonic Team wasn't an official thing until Nights into Dreams came out. JOEBRO64 11:00, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

Right, but if it was effectively the same people, and Sega retroactively applies their name to later releases, then Sonic Team's name belongs on there as well. Sergecross73 msg me 12:15, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

We should add a footnote that says they weren't official, then. JOEBRO64 13:00, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

Yes, I'm all for add more info and context on it. Just against the flat removal, which I feel is both not the best choice, and will be a maintenance nightmare. I'm not sure if its right to argue "officiality" with Sega, but explanation can certainly be given. Sergecross73 msg me 13:22, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

My thoughts on it as well. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 19:57, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

This is a pretty difficult thing to sort out, and I've been working on Sonic Team over the past 24 hours to try and get it straight. Apparently everything we know is wrong, and it's even quite possible the story about Sega-AM8 becoming Sonic Team is a falsehood too. (I could not definitively prove that other than that Naka was with Sega's Consumer Development division, but there's a different AM8 that is not Sonic Team in 1996 according to Dreamcast Magazine. Only retrospectives suggest AM8, nothing period-based that I could find has it, but I "hedged" my bet in the article based on what we do know). Hey @Sergecross73:, where does Sega retroactively apply that Sonic Team is the developer? All I have ever seen are non-Sega retrospectives that do that. At this juncture in time, I'd be in support of using both names on it; I can see where both would apply and not be mutually exclusive. Next question: if this is Sonic Team at the time, what is Ohshima's development of Sonic CD, which had nothing to do with STI or Naka other than that Naka and Ohshima were in communication about it? Red Phoenix ^talk 21:04, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

"Sonic Team Presents" is shown upon booting up Sonic 1, both in the original, and I just ran the mobile version on Sega Forever and it's still there. The Sega Forever listing for Sonic 2 says Original developer: Sonic Team & SEGA Technical Institute. Haven't found anything for Sonic 3K, but that's been re-released a lot less times, and I have less access to those releases, so still working on that, but I'm certain its happened... Sergecross73 msg me 15:49, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

Was it possibly mentioned in Sonic's Ultimate Genesis Collection? If anybody could check (don't have access to it anymore), that would be nice. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 18:51, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

None of the compilations (Mega Collection, Ultimate Genesis, etc.) mention the developers. JOEBRO64 19:18, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

Thought they did. Oh well. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 19:29, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

Masato Nakamura

Nakamura, who did the music for Sonic 1 and 2, was (allegedly) asked to return for Sonic 3 but wanted more money than Sega was willing to pay him. I think it'd be worth mentioning it in this article, especially as his work was an important part of Sonic's early success and remains a continuing part of the brand identity, and because he was able to ask for a lot of money because he was in Japan's biggest band at the time. I've seen the claim mentioned in several places over the years, but am having trouble finding a good source for it. Can anyone dig it up? Popcornduff (talk) 04:04, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

• The non-MJ composers should be named too, yeah. As for this claim, I've never been able to find the original source, so it may just have been speculation from years ago that now gets thrown around as fact. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 08:21, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
• That was the case for Sonic Spinball. It's likely plausible this is what caused Sega to ask Michael Jackson to compose the music for Sonic 3. I'll look for a source. JOEBRO64 10:22, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
  • I don't see how not being able to afford Nakamura but being able to afford one of the biggest pop stars at the time in his place makes any sense. The Spinball stuff is separate, as the game was fully made in America, making Nakamura's involvement unlikely from the start. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 19:49, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
    • I don't see how not being able to afford Nakamura but being able to afford one of the biggest pop stars at the time in his place makes any sense. Well, there's a lot to consider there. $X might not have been good value for one of Japan's biggest pop stars, but it might have been good value for the biggest pop star in the world - especially when the Sonic franchise was much more popular outside Japan. Popcornduff (talk) 16:19, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
    • The original Sonic the Hedgehog made Nakamura a household name in Japan, so every time Sega used him, he'd increase his asking price. Spinball is connected to this because the side of STI making it tried to use Nakamura's music in the game, but had to replace it shortly before the game's release when Hirokazu Yasuhara told them this. From what I've read, it seems like Jackson was really eager to work on Sonic 3 because he was a Sonic fan. Also, Sonic 3 was fully made in America too. JOEBRO64 20:28, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
      • Nakamura's music was used in the (beta) game without his permission, it has nothing to do with not paying him to get his rights to do the music, as it was always planned to have Drossin do it. And Sonic 3 was not fully made in America, MJ had to send his demo tapes back to Sega of Japan to get it programmed into the game, so at least the audio side wasn't. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 20:38, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
        • Have you even read the STI or Sonic Team articles? Obviously you haven't, because if you had you'd know Sonic 3 was fully developed in America. The tape Michael Jackson sent to Sega was a demo tape he made by combining a bunch of tracks of him humming. It wasn't to be programmed into the game. Furthermore, the game's staff worked with STI until 1994, at which they went to Japan to develop Nights into Dreams, so Sonic 3's development obviously didn't happen in Japan. JOEBRO64 21:02, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
          • Yes I've read (and edited) them, but I've also personally corresponded with members of Sega's Japanese audio team regarding MJ, and know for a fact that none of them worked/were based in the US at the time and that MJ's team did in fact send demo tapes back to Japan, which were then transcoded and programmed into YM2612 code by Masaru Setsumaru and Yoshiaki Kashima. You are taking that single source as the all-encompassing word of god when it doesn't apply to the audio side. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 22:36, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
            • Okay then. That settles that. But the core game was developed in America, which many reliable sources do acknowledge. I'm also not taking it as the "word of god"—I'm going by what reliable sources say. JOEBRO64 22:58, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
              • Which is fine, I just think it would be more ideal if we had another, independent source confirming the same stuff. More sources for controversial subjects (nobody really claimed this was an American game before) can't hurt. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 02:18, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
• From the looks of the Sonic Spinball article, we may have a reliable source for some of this story already. What do you guys think? 16:22, 12 May 2018 (UTC)Popcornduff (talk)
  • What exact parts? If you mean the part about Drossin being told he couldn't use Nakamura's Sonic 1 theme, then I don't see how that really helps anything here. Spinball was never meant to have Nakamura as composer, which is potentially not the case here. BTW, the theme still made it into some early retail copies; this can be seen with the beta .VGM set. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 02:18, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
    • It's been a few days since I looked at it, but yeah, I think I must have been looking at that reference. I swear I found an online copy of that ref somewhere that had the full story, and thinking "we could use this for the Sonic 3 article too", but I can't find it now... maybe I confused it with some source we can't use like a fan site. Popcornduff (talk) 02:45, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
      • Probably. I've been familiar with the series' music development for almost a decade, and have never seen (or can't remember seeing) a direct statement from Sega (or anybody close to the game's development) mentioning that Nakamura was meant to be originally hired as the game's composer, but contract/money issues prevented it and forced Sega to use their in-house team. But as I said above, it doesn't make much sense because hiring the globally-known MJ (during the height of his popularity) would have most likely cost way more than a niche Japanese bassist. I still feel like this is just fan speculation that gets thrown around as fact, something unfortunately commonplace within the series' community. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 02:52, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
        • It's not that we need to say "Nakamura was meant to be originally hired" per se - but if money disagreements are part of why he wasn't involved in Sonic 3, that's worth including. I don't believe this is fan speculation - I'm almost certain I read that in an interview somewhere very recently. I'll see if I can dig it up.
        • And yeah, like I said before, yeah, MJ probably would have been more expensive than DCM (unless MJ was willing to do it cheaply because he so badly wanted to be part of a video game or something), but then MJ would have been a much bigger marketing boon than DCM for Sega. Popcornduff (talk) 02:58, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
          • If you can find a direct statement by Sega or somebody close to the game's development that would have known this, then please do. Anything else I'd just considered fan speculation, even if a reliable source picked up on it. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 03:04, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
            • Can't find anything from the horse's mouth so far - perhaps I really did dream it. However, I found this, which seems to give "Morawiec; Woita" as sources. Any clues there? Popcornduff (talk) 04:37, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
              • I don't have anything about Sonic 3, specifically, but this talks about the same issue for Sonic Spinball, released the year before - fourth paragraph under the "Winds of Change" section. Maybe it can help with this matter. Red Phoenix ^talk 10:52, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Michael Jackson, again

The lead (and parts of the body) state that MJ composed parts of the soundtrack, but the body also states that some people are skeptical about this, and that some official Sega people even denied it. Are we comfortable with this? (I'm in two minds.) Popcornduff (talk) 13:48, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

This claim is not known to be true, and should not be stated as fact in Wikipedia's voice.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 13:52, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

It has been confirmed by multiple people for years that he at least was contracted to work on the game. The question people have is how much of his work actually remained in the final game (some say none, some say a few tracks, some say most). As a result, the wording should be changed to reflect this, perhaps "Pop musician Michael Jackson was originally contracted to write the full soundtrack for the game. However, he left the project before completion and went uncredited, with debates over how much of the final soundtrack was rewritten by members of Sega's in-house audio team." or something. The last time I proposed this, I think it was shot down for being "too detailed", but I don't see why people want to intentionally keep things in need of an explanation, as the original wording is misleading at best. We have multiple sources regarding the whole situation (from MJ's side and Sega's), so it's not like an extra sentence or two is WP:UNDUE. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 21:48, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

It has been confirmed by multiple people for years that he at least was contracted to work on the game But hasn't it also been denied? According to the Sega-16 source (is this a reliable source btw?) Laitham said "Nothing ever became of it" and Nielsen said Sega wasn't interested. We also cite a source at the end expressing skepticism. The sources don't agree. Popcornduff (talk) 21:59, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

Yes, but both of these claims come from people who did not directly work on the game. I'm sure they aren't lying or whatever, but I have to question how much they actually knew about the whole situation due to that. But yes, their claims should be cited somewhere as a counter-point just to be thorough. Sidenote: but I used to be in contact with Masaru Setsumaru (one of the game's sound programmers), and he claims he and the rest of the Japanese audio team were excited to work with MJ when they originally found out the news, but this is obviously personal WP:OR and can't be used as a source. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 22:06, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

Yeah, we all know there's no question MJ worked on it, but these are Sega employees explicitly saying it didn't happen. It's not up to us to rate some people's opinions over others based on how reliable we imagine them to be based on their position in the company.

As for your revert just now - the relevant WP:OVERLINK point is not to link "Everyday words understood by most readers in context". "Pop music" is an everyday term. We also have a minor WP:SEAOFBLUE situation, with pop music and Michael Jackson linked side by side. Popcornduff (talk) 22:11, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

Right, I'm just not sure how to properly write the section with all of these conflicting claims. I mean, we know for a fact that Strangers in Moscow is pretty much the ending theme, but maybe that's purely a Buxer thing like with IceCap? And as for "pop music", I figured that it wasn't an everyday term and thus should be linked to be helpful, but perhaps I'm just underestimating the everyday reader? ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 22:24, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

I think, on reflection, that my wording and your wording both have the same problem: it doesn't actually say that the sources disagree. I mean, technically, you could write "reportedly" before every single claim we ever source in an article (and in fact this is the kind of thing I often remove in copyediting sweeps) - obviously it's reported or we wouldn't be able to cite it.

That said I don't think it's a huge deal. A word like "reportedly" at least, hopefully, inspires a bit of doubt in the reader. But if we were to do it properly, we could write "though other reports deny this" or whatever at the end. As ever I'd like to keep things concise.

Frankly I'd be flabbergasted if anyone reading this article didn't know what "pop music" meant. Popcornduff (talk) 22:32, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

Right, that's my issue with the section too. I want it explained in a bit more than it currently is (it's pretty complex with a number of conflicting claims), but I also want to keep it around three paragraphs max to avoid WP:UNDUE and for general bloat reasons. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 22:47, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

I only see a potential problem with the lead summary, not the section itself. The section explains all the sides pretty thoroughly, doesn't it?

BTW, is there a good source anywhere for the music-related lawsuits that reportedly have limited further releases of the game? Whitehead mentioned this at some point years ago but I think it was in some fansite we can't use. Popcornduff (talk) 22:51, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

I don't believe so. That lawsuit info actually originated with Cirocco Jones telling me in 2012, which I then made a series of posts on Sonic Retro regarding it. The claim then gets reposted by Stealth (one of the programmers of Sonic Mania) on his blog in 2015. I can't say for certain how this suit ended or even if it was true in the first place, but it is weird how Sonic 3 has not been included in any recent Sega/Sonic collections since around that time (The 2011 Steam release of Sonic 3 & Knuckles was the last time, AFAIK). ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 23:07, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

I see, that makes sense. BTW I recently discovered that I'm connected to one of the Mania devs via a mutual friend. Maybe I should try squeezing him for the juice. Popcornduff (talk) 23:10, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

AtGames (the developer of the Genesis Flashback) said about a year ago that legal issues prevented Sonic 3 from inclusion in the Genesis Mini coming out later this year. I've added it to the release section because I can't figure out how to put it in the MJ section. JOEBRO64 19:26, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

Interesting. Is this the first time that it was stated so outright like this? Sergecross73 msg me 19:42, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm wondering if they were directly told this by Sega, or simply didn't even bother trying due to the rumors. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 22:08, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

@TheJoebro64: The release section is the right place for it. If the source doesn't mention that the licensing problems are connected to MJ, then putting it in the MJ section would be WP:SYNTH. Popcornduff (talk) 02:01, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

Yeah that was my concern, I felt like any way I'd word it there would imply AtGames was referring to the Jackson issue specifically. JOEBRO64 02:03, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

The AtGames statement is far from definitive; AtGames is not directly privy to Sega's internal company history and it is not clear whether it was authorized to make such a statement, and what exactly that statement was based on. As this own article states, "[Sonic 3] is included in the compilations Sonic Jam (1997) for the Sega Saturn,[48] Sonic & Knuckles Collection (1997) and Sonic & Garfield Pack (1999) for Microsoft Windows,[49] Sonic Mega Collection (2002) for the GameCube,[50] Sonic Mega Collection Plus (2004) for the PlayStation 2, Xbox, and Windows,[51] Sonic's Ultimate Genesis Collection (2009) for the Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3,[52] and Sonic Classic Collection (2010) for the Nintendo DS.[53]" To follow that statement with "Sonic 3 will not be included on the Sega Genesis Mini (2019),[58] a dedicated console containing 40 Genesis games,[59] due to licensing problems with the soundtrack[58]" just begs the question of why music licensing issues have suddenly become a huge problem in 2019 when there was apparently no such issue in 2009. (Also, if this premise is accepted, then how is Sega still selling Sonic 3 on Steam?) Furthermore, AtGames made that statement over a year ago and has since been removed entirely from Sega Genesis Mini development (with Sega itself assuming control of the project), and there still has been no public confirmation of what games will be included in the Sega Genesis Mini when it releases later this year. At the very least, I don't see how this statement can be presented in wikivoice and without attribution to AtGames.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 07:11, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

Just commenting, but the music licensing issues, if true, go back to around 2011/2012, which would put it just after the Steam release (and is still its most recent release on any platform). ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 04:10, 22 April 2019 (UTC)

Prototype leak

No RS has covered this yet, but Hidden Palace just leaked a Sonic 3 proto. Looks like the Sonic & Knuckles Collection soundtrack was the original one (meaning MJ's music is in the final? I dunno) ... and the drop dash (yes, that drop dash) originates here. JOEBRO64 23:05, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

• Confirms my previous suspicions that the music replacement tracks for the 1996 PC port were the original tracks. But it's odd how they were apparently replaced at the very end of development with the ones from MJ/Buxer, since they only had three months before it was available at retail, assuming this November 1993 date is correct anyway. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 02:41, 17 November 2019 (UTC)
  • It's probably from sometime earlier, November 1993 is just the burn date (this build was the same one that Sega Magazine UK previewed). But yeah, it is weird—I find it very bizarre that Sega completely redid portions of the soundtrack, restored the original one for the 1996 Windows release, then went back to the redone soundtrack for compilation/downloadable releases, and now won't rerelease the game because of licensing issues regarding the redone soundtrack when they could easily release it with the original one. JOEBRO64 02:57, 17 November 2019 (UTC)
    • Yeah, I was following some of this today too. Very interesting, I hope some sources pick it up. There might be a chance, considering all the mystery around it’s soundtrack, lack of re-releases, etc. Sergecross73 msg me 04:26, 17 November 2019 (UTC)
      • Not totally related, but someone sent me this moment in a 2019 podcast when Buxer talks about how the credits music became Stranger in Moscow: [13] Popcornduff (talk) 16:34, 17 November 2019 (UTC)
• Articles from Kotaku, The Gamer, and Tech Raptor. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 01:58, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Thank God. Thanks Dissident (but IIRC isn't TechRaptor unreliable?). JOEBRO64 02:00, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
    • You're right, it is. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 02:05, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
      • Awesome, glad this one is getting picked up by websites. I don’t think the Sonic CD one has yet, right? This one did have more interesting developments though, so it makes sense. Sergecross73 msg me 02:20, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
        • Outside of Sonic-specific websites, I can't find any. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 02:25, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
          • IGN and NLife picked up on the story. JOEBRO64 17:05, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
• I've done a bit of digging (but haven't found any reliable sources just yet) and it seems like Sonic & Knuckles Collection didn't use the MJ tracks for licensing reasons—it was because they couldn't be sequenced in MIDI because of the voice/stock clips JOEBRO64 01:41, 3 December 2019 (UTC)
  • This is just speculation though. I can't find the post right now, but Stealth of Sonic Mania fame claimed to have been one of the first to theorize this, which eventually become accepted as some sort of fact. Not all of the tracks used vocal samples/stockclips (the two player map selection theme for one), and they were replaced too. And even if this was true, the samples could have simply been omitted. I mean, it's not like the MIDI tracks were quality anyway, as a few of them have some note errors. Obviously this is also not 100% confirmed, but the licensing/copyright issue still seems to be the core reason for it. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 02:08, 3 December 2019 (UTC)
    • True, but Sonic Jam was released around the same time and used the MJ soundtrack. JOEBRO64 22:46, 3 December 2019 (UTC)
      • Wasn't that emulated, or at most just an edited ROM? The problem has always appeared to be with native (aka, non-emulated) ports of the game, with Sega apparently being prevented from releasing the game in that way, by this apparent legal/copyright stuff, to other platforms. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 00:41, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
        • No, to my understanding the games in Sonic Jam are native ports and not emulated. They also added a few new difficulty modes, so they did have to go into the coding and change stuff. JOEBRO64 00:47, 4 December 2019 (UTC)

"Hyper Sonic (Sonic the Hedgehog)" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Hyper Sonic (Sonic the Hedgehog). Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. Steel1943 (talk) 22:01, 5 December 2019 (UTC)

New music update

• https://forums.sonicretro.org/index.php?posts/962143/

Cirocco Jones told a fan that Sega owes people money for music downloads and game sales. This might get into reliable sources later, just posting here for now. JOEBRO64 13:14, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

• Link doesn't work, BTW. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 22:31, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
  • It got merged into another thread. I've updated the link. Jones could be wrong FWIW, but it's an interesting development in such a strange story. JOEBRO64 22:34, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
    • Thanks, so basically nothing has been resolved regarding this in the near decade since he last told me? ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 18:04, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

      Seems like it. It's not exactly clear if he's correct or not (it's possible that Sega does own the music, for all we know), but it is nice to have a clear statement on this. Again, I'm not sure if it'll get picked up by RSs, I just put it here as a heads-up. JOEBRO64 18:19, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

      I know this is WP:NOTAFORUM and all, but since we're on the subject: a few months ago in Tokyo, through my work, I met a guy who works for Sega Japan, and he told me Sonic 3 hadn't been rereleased because of a dispute to do with Sony owning music. He hadn't heard of the MJ story, but as MJ was signed to Sony around the Sonic 3 period, I wonder if that's involved. Or he could have just been mixed up. The guy had nothing to do with game development, he worked in the arcade business. Interesting chat though. Popcornfud (talk) 12:19, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

      Fascinating! I know music licensing is complicated, but I wonder why Sega doesn't just buy back the rights (though, to be fair, since it's MJ it could be ridiculously expensive). Well, at least Sonic 3 did get rereleased before it got stuck in legal hell, unlike GoldenEye. JOEBRO64 13:20, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Original Knuckles Character Document

The original Knuckles character document just released online; dated April 12, 1993.

Some other things:

• Apparently the Master Emerald was just a regular Chaos Emerald at one point.
• Additionally, it states that the emerald had already vanished/been stolen, something that does happen until Sonic & Knuckles (Sonic 3 Part 2).
• Knuckles apparently had a whirlwind ability to knock down walls; in the final (Sonic & Knuckles), he just punches them down.

- Shadowboxer2005 (talk) 22:44, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

Sonic 3 Michael Jackson

Michael Jackson's involvement has been confirmed by Buxer, Cirocco, and one other dude. Shouldn't we just add him as uncredited instead of completely removing his name. The only thing that says that his involvement was removed was Sega, Naoto Oshima and possibly others at Sega. Howard Drossin said he barely fixed Jackson's music and so I would still credit him as uncredited. Buxer even said he was only uncredited because he wasn't happy with the sound of the music. Sega said otherwise but they're the only source going against it. I would still add him. Aalji (talk) 01:45, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

There's a multi-paragraph subsection detailing his role. The section title has his name in it. He is talked about more than the rest of the music staff combined. How is that not enough? Sergecross73 msg me 02:08, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

I think what Aalji's referring to is the note saying not to add Jackson to the infobox. Jackson wasn't credited in the game and given the fact that whether his music actually made it into the game is still subject to debate, I definitely think he shouldn't be listed in the infobox. JOEBRO64 02:19, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

I just meant that worrying about the infobox inclusion when there's an entire section about it is kind of a "can't see the forest for the trees" type mindset. Sergecross73 msg me 02:30, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

Yes, but it's like stating that if you were to add something with not much of refutable source/claim,the statement of it's up for debate since it isn't neccisarily relevant knowing there are many who worked on the music themselves have comfirms involvment. The infobox still is important as it gives readers an idea if it's confirmed or not. I will say though you are pretty right that we did at least tall about it, just it being a debate isn't entirely true. Aalji (talk) 19:42, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

Also, I mean this isnt really speculation here. This was comfirmed by all these people who worked with him. I'm not "Seeing the forest not for it's trees", I'm stating why such an edit didn't make sense. Maybe 5-10 years ago this would make sense to remove his name. Not saying that us making a thing about his involvement wasn't enough but it seems that we have enough sources saying yes. Aalji (talk) 00:12, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

He's not credited, and Sega refuses to credit him after the fact either. I'm not saying it's right or wrong. I'm saying things like this require explanation to give the full context of a situation, and as such are best left out of things like templates and infoboxes, which don't have the room to give the proper context. His name is present as part of one of the subsections, so it shows up as party of the table of contents at the top of the page. That makes it plenty visible to readers. Sergecross73 msg me 00:21, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Michael Jackson's involvement, motion to add him to infobox as composer, labelled uncredited

His involvement is all but fully proven now. The section on his involvement essentially proves his case for the later half of Sonic 3's levels, and as of today, it was let slip on a livestream that these levels will have different music in the Sonic Origins release, with an altered mix of the songs featured in the Sonic & Knuckles Collection revamped by Jun Senoue (and apparently these were meant to be the original songs, before MJ's team stepped in). There's a tweet by Stealth, who worked on Sonic Mania and the Sonic 1&2 widescreen ports essentially explaining this was what he was told. I think an explanation by developers who worked on the game, people who have since touched it for ports, and SEGA's indirect actions on removing the soundtrack on which he had been alleged to work on are the best and most sturdy sources we will ever get on this topic. We won't get a confirmation from SEGA themselves.

I am probably pre-emptive on this as I tend to be, since Sonic Origins does not release until the middle of this month, but I think for context MJ's name should be present in the info box as composer, with a note labelling "Uncredited" next to his name, or at least "alleged". Thoughts? Kettleonwater (talk) 02:39, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose - see the proposal in the section just a couple above. We literally have a whole section with Jackson's name on it detailing his involvement with the proper context. It's not appropriate to add him to the infobox where there's no room to give him the proper context. Sergecross73 msg me 02:47, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose per Serge. (In addition, Brad Buxer just revealed that Jackson actually only composed one track himself and says he was responsible for all of "Jackson's" work.) JOEBRO64 02:53, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
  • One track is still one track he composed for, you just admitted that he indeed composed for the game. I still think he should be put in the infobox, with a note that says "Alleged, see Michael Jackson's involvement." This would supply the proper context. Kettleonwater (talk) 11:26, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

    We don't generally list uncredited staff in infoboxes. Infoboxes are generally just for key staff. Not people that didn't even get credited. Sergecross73 msg me 12:13, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose - let's keep the infobox for main staff who receive credits. Popcornfud (talk) 12:27, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
• Due to the large amount of people who worked on the soundtrack, I've just gone ahead and grouped them into Buxer's camp and Sega's. We were already omitting people due to what they said they wrote from fan correspondence (including myself), but we can't be 100% sure they didn't have a larger role in the project and simply forgot what they did. I still omitted MJ due to the reasoning above though. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 12:51, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

"Dastardly"

An editor keeps adding the descriptor "dastardly" in the prose of the article. I keep trying to remove it on the grounds of being as a very obvious bad choice for writing in encyclopedic tone. Even though it's straightforward, the editor has indicated they intend to keep reverting in, and their suggestions keep getting worse, so I'm looking for further input. Thank you. Sergecross73 msg me 01:05, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

It’s unnecessary. Popcornfud (talk) 08:39, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

Seems disruptive to me. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 11:32, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

From what I can tell, all this editor does is add the word "dastardly" to articles. Definitely seems like a WP:NOTHERE scenario. JOEBRO64 12:25, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, examining the edit history indicates they're just a vandal. Popcornfud (talk) 12:32, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

Yep, I started the discussion before I looked very far into their edits, and now I see it's beyond any doubt a vandal (who is now indeffed too.) Sergecross73 msg me 15:48, 5 September 2022 (UTC)