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Talk:Solomon Islands/Archive 1

< Talk:Solomon Islands
Latest comment: 4 years ago by BrownHairedGirl in topic Official name and category names
Archive 1Archive 2

PM update

Latest comment: 18 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Why isn't it updated to show Synder Rini? This is correct when you go to the Prime Ministers entry, but incorrect when included on the main country page? 

Hi pottia??????

Proposed WikiProject

Latest comment: 17 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

In my ongoing efforts to try to include every country on the planet included in the scope of a WikiProject, I have proposed a new project on Melanesia at Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals#Melanesia whose scope would include Solomon Islands. Any interested parties are more than welcome to add their names there, so we can see if there is enough interest to start such a project. Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 17:16, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

2007 Earthquake

Latest comment: 17 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

I added the tsunami paragraph to the history section about an hour after the tsunami. This may have been premature, although it does looks like it was a bad tsunami. We will probably have to wait weeks for a conclusive assessment of the damage. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.196.234.57 (talk) 13:53, 2 April 2007 (UTC).


Chapter "Tensions" 5th paragraph

Latest comment: 17 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

The 5th paragraph in the chapter "Tensions" didn't fit in the screen, a very long line, but I don't know how to fix it. Could anybody do it ?203.80.51.225 22:08, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

  • Done. It was looking that way because, after the commenting out of the deleted image, there was a space at the start of the line; this turns it into a monospaced code block. Cheers, Wantok (toktok) 03:47, 10 August 2007 (UTC )

error

Latest comment: 16 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

in economy page, it shows per capita GDP as 340USD, but in main artical 600USD. Which correct? 152.1.62.165 (talk) 20:50, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

rennell island

Latest comment: 16 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Hello, Please check the article, Rennell Island.

I would hate to think that I am one of those "hijacking articles" as you so eloquently claim. --Phenss (talk) 07:50, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Is the Solomon Islands just a Commonwealth realm?

Latest comment: 15 years ago33 comments12 people in discussion

Some UK article editors feel that it is important that countries like the Solomon Islands are descirbed as "Commonwealth realms" while the UK should be described as a "Constiutional monarchy". The below is the UK discussion replicated. As regards the Solomon Islands, do you have a view?

The article currently has this sentence:

The UK is a constitutional monarchy with Queen Elizabeth II as the head of state. (the "Constitutional Description")

Should it read as follows: The UK is a Commonwealth realm with Queen Elizabeth II as the head of state. (the "Realm Description").

Which description should be used - the Constitutional Description or the Realm Description? Whatever is decided needs to be applied consistently to all 16 "Commonwealth realms" - after all, they have the same constitutional relationship vis-a-vis the Monarch as the UK has. Regards. Redking7 (talk) 11:45, 14 March 2009 (UTC) --

Constitutional monarchy comes first in the history of the state, and its more important in terms of understanding the constitution. Non WIkipedia sources uses phrases like "The UK is considered to be a commonwealth realm". --Snowded (talk) 12:01, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
Sorry. I cannot understand your answer - which description do you support using (the Realm Description or the Constitutional Description) - I've added a simple list-type response to make it simpler for Users. Regards. Redking7 (talk) 12:15, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
I think Constitutional Monarchy is the most helpful description however the article should mention that the United Kingdom is a commonwealth realm. At the moment the Commonwealth realm is only linked to Queen Elizabeth II, it doesnt say the UK is one. BritishWatcher (talk) 13:58, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Support use of Constitutional Description:

  1. BritishWatcher (talk) 13:58, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
  2. The two are not mutually exclusive. The constitutional monarchy phrase has primacy, much as the UK's membership of the EU comes further down. Kbthompson (talk) 14:13, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
  3. One of the silliest issues we have had here. Agree with Kbthompson. --Snowded (talk) 14:15, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
  4. Constitutional monarchy is my choice. GoodDay (talk) 22:47, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
  5. It depends on the context; however, if it is the lead we are specifically discussing, then I'd say keep it as "constitutional monarchy". "Commonwealth realm" is an unofficial descriptor. I've undone those changes Redking made (prematurely, I think) to the various country articles; those that weren't undone by others already, that is. --Miesianiacal (talk) 10:24, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
  6. Redking7 (talk) 12:01, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
  7. Constitutional monarchy. Any "Commonwealth realm" must be a monarchy, but Constitutional monarchy is the more precise and descriptive term. Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:55, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
  8. I am agreeing with the majority -- Phoenix (talk) 09:40, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
  9. Agree with the silliness mentioned by Snowded. Leave as constitutional monarchy. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 10:07, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Support use of Realm Description:

  1. [insert your user name]


Miesianiacal - Why have you undone my changes...No one has so far even supported the Realm Description? I disagree with you and think my changes clearly should be left as they were. Do you think the articles should be inconsistent...some using the "Constitutional Desciription", others the "Realm Description"....That does not appear to make much sense to me. Regards.Redking7 (talk) 11:32, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Redking, so far NO ONE supports your "realm" proposals (not even you). I don't even accept it as an either or, and I note you did not attempt the change on Canada or Australia. I hadn't realised you had made the changes elsewhere or I would have reverted before Miesianiacal tracked them down. --Snowded (talk) 11:39, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
Snowded - I think there is confusion. My view is the same as yours. I support the "Constitutional Description". Oddly Miesianiacal supports the "Constitutional Description" but not for the other "relams" where I had changed them so that the "Constitutional Description" would be used. Apparently, Miesianiacal thinks it is appropriate on these articles (countries like Papua New Guinea etc) to say "Papua New Guinea remains a Commonwealth realm". I disaagree and think what has emerged from this discussion is that they should be described in the same was as the UK, i.e. "Papua New Guinea is a constitutional monarchy with Queen Elizabeth II as the head of state." They should not be described in some sort of "lesser" way than the UK. Do you agree with me about this? Regards. Redking7 (talk) 12:01, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
There is always confusion on articles on constitutional status. SO let me be clear, I do not think consistency is appropriate. Some of these nations were created by empire for example against naturally occurring local boundaries. Oh and by the way I don;t think either description has more intrinsic value than the other. --Snowded (talk) 12:17, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
Re.: Some of these nations were created by empire for example against naturally occurring local boundaries - what does that have to do with anything? Does it have any relevance to their current constitutional status? Do these countries have a different relationship to the Crown vis-a-vis the UK? Please give reasons for why, in the opening paras, you think it is appropriate for them to be described as "Commonwealth realms" but not appropriate for the UK? Why should consistency not be applied. It is a core Wiki principle. Regards. Redking7 (talk) 12:44, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
I can't understand why you should think the manner of a countries creation has nothing to do with its constitutional status. In the case of the UK its status as a constitutional monarchy came way before any notion of being a commonwealth realm. In the other cases the countries concerned were created as commonwealth realms (in the main). Its not an issue of consistency. --Snowded (talk) 13:18, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
Agreed with snowded on this although i do think we need to mention the fact the UK is a commonwealth realm somewhere in the introduction. At the moment that is not said, but we dont need to remove "constitutional monarchy" to be able to include that. BritishWatcher (talk) 14:25, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
My intent was to restore all the articles to their status quo until discussion here was finished. It may only be my opinion, but I think Redking making such wide reaching edits before hardly anyone had even responded here was bad enough, but re-reverting (sometimes more than once) is generally poor form. I agree with Redking in that there is no difference between the UK and the other realms in terms of their presently being Commonwealth realms or constitutional monarchies; however, my position, for the record, remains the same as above: context decides what is best. I would say that "constitutional monarchy" (a more concrete and official term) is best for the context of the lead, and "commonwealth realm" (a non-official descriptor) should be mentioned somewhere else in the article. --Miesianiacal (talk) 17:09, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
That all sounds very grand indeed. Such a desire to uphold consensus but advance no arguments against the change nor any arguments to as to why the principle of consistency should not apply. It seems the majority here are happy to apply the "Commonwealth realm" tag to the "ex-colonies" but not so keen as regards the UK...I am simply going to apply the smell test and it smells like politics to me. I'm bowing out. I expect you, my fellow editors, will leave the "ex-colonies" with their "Realm tags". I will leave it in your collective hands. Hope you surprise me. Redking7 (talk) 21:15, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
Coming up: The United Kingdom is an Olympic realm... Hawkeye7 (talk) 02:09, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Why consistency? UK existed before Commonwealth. Was its constitutional status changed? 131.111.164.219 (talk) 17:24, 19 March 2009 (UTC)


Furthermore this is not an either/or situation since all the Commonwealth Realms are constitutional monarchies, a situation which is extremely unlikely to change. Therefore stating that a country is a Commonwealth Realm currently, and for the foreseeable future, implies that it is a constituional monarchy. -- Derek Ross | Talk 17:35, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
As to "Why consistency?" Why not? Its a Wiki principle. Explain how the UK is not a "Commonwealth realm" and the others are? That would seem to be the only reason not to be consistent. UK existed before Commonwealth. Correct. Relevance? Are you saying it is not a Commonwealth realm? Are you saying the others are not Constitutional monarichies? Pick one description and be consistent. "Was its constitutional status changed?" No. The sentence that the others "remain Commonwealth realms" is incorrect too - It implies they have always been "Commonwealth realms". They have not. They have only been "Commonwelath realms" since they became separate realms.
As to it not being an either/or situation - If you are happy to call the UK a "Commonwealth realm", do so and be consistent with the others "ex-Realms". As it stands, Users prefer "Constitutional monarchy" for the UK and the "Commonwealth realm" tag for the "ex cololnies". Explain the inconsistency please? After all there is no constitutional difference in their position. Please explain why you differentiate between the two. The description concerns their current status - it has nothing to do with whether (as in the UK's case) it has been a Constitutional monarch for centuries or (as in the case of Barbados) merely for decades. Regards. Redking7 (talk) 08:05, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
I actually agree all Commonwealth realms should say (country name) is a constitutional monarchy with Queen Elizabeth II as the head of state. They are all equal in the eyes of the monarchy and in constitutional standings so they should be treated as the same. Its a very logical argument to make. -- Phoenix (talk) 10:27, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
Thanks Phoenix. I am glad I am not alone. Regards. Redking7 (talk) 19:53, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
I was blocked for trying to make these changes. It seems I am alone because no one else is bothered to do anything about it. Regards. Redking7 (talk) 21:23, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

So what is your view as regards the Solomon Islands?

response

Actually you are wrong, the UK page made a decision for the UK, its up to each other page to make its own mind up. And Why or WHY do you have to reproduce the whole talk page? Heard of pipelinks? --Snowded (talk) 22:20, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

The question of which description to use is the exactly the same for the Solomon Islands as it was for the UK - so the above discussion is relevant. Regards. Redking7 (talk) 06:22, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
The only view expressed on this talk page is in favour of the "Constitutional Description". Redking7 (talk) 14:00, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

There is a TV statiion in the Solomon Islands.www.onetelevision.com.sb —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.1.166.215 (talk) 10:39, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Independent Country?

Latest comment: 15 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

The article states that the country is independent, but it also states that the head of the country is the English queen. Contradiction or mistake? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.129.10.245 (talk) 12:03, 1 July 2009 (UTC)


It's neither, the Solomon's, like Australia, Canada and several other countries are independent nations that all share the same person as Monarch.
- IkonicDeath —Preceding undated comment added 17:41, 1 September 2009 (UTC).

Education in the Solomon Islands

Latest comment: 14 years ago5 comments2 people in discussion

This should be merged with the article. Sarcelles (talk) 16:33, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

Why? -- Alan Liefting (talk) - 19:28, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Reverted removal of "the"

Latest comment: 14 years ago6 comments4 people in discussion

I reverted the removal of the definite article "the" from the front of all the mentions of the Solomon Islands for several reasons:

  1. The change broke at least two things on the page (the flag graphic and a category at the bottom).
  2. The pluralization changes which would be required if we dropped the "the" were mostly not made, leading to inconsistency and poor grammar.
  3. Including an article on the front of a collection spoken of as one thing is proper English (cf. the Philippine islands and the Brothers Grimm).
  4. As such, leaving off the definite article just sounds clumsy.
  5. The other "Islands" nations were not likewise changed (the Marshall Islands and the British Virgin Islands) leading to yet more inconsistency.

This is a major change which should be discussed before it is made. -Nkocharh (talk) 23:36, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree. "The Solomon Islands" means 'those islands which we call Solomon'. "Solomon Islands" by itself means 'some islands which we call Solomon', rather like "desert islands" are 'some islands which have a particular property of being dry'. -- Evertype·✆ 10:47, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Solomon Islanders seem to call their country "Solomon Islands", not "the Solomon Islands". See for example this page on a Solomon Islands government website. Or this one. RAMSI uses both, but calls itself "The Regional Assistance Mission to Solomon Islands" (no "the"). The Solomon Times uses "Solomon Islands" (no "the"). It seems to be established practice in Solomon Islands' English to call the country simply "Solomon Islands". I'm fairly sure I've heard Australian politicians call it "Solomon Islands" (with no "the") too, but I may be wrong. Aridd (talk) 15:48, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

That may well be, but in standard English the article is used for this and other archipelagos. We talk about the British Isles, the Sandwich Islands, the Hawaiian Islands, etc. -- Evertype·✆ 17:26, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Oh, I don't mind what we do one way or the other. I'm simply raising the issue and drawing attention to the fact that Solomon Islanders themselves call their country "Solomon Islands", with no article. Now the question is whether we adopt British English or Solomon Islands English (which is also Australian / New Zealand English, I think, but that would have to be checked) on this issue. Aridd (talk) 17:33, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

It also appears to be called "Solomon Islands", and not "the Solomon Islands", in Australian English: [1]. 83.199.174.210 (talk) 19:08, 21 December 2009 (UTC) (Aridd not logged in)

Yelling at trees a myth?

Latest comment: 14 years ago2 comments1 person in discussion

I found a 2007 discussion about this on the Wikipedia: Reference desk: Yelling at trees in the soloman islands. Did anyone find more in the meanwhile? Wiki-uk (talk) 14:22, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

See also Talk:Taare Zameen Par‎ Wiki-uk (talk) 14:23, 4 February 2010 (UTC)


A Comment and A Question

Latest comment: 14 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

First the question: How does the recognition of the Republic of China by Solomon Islands give the ROC vital votes in the United Nations? Does Solomon Islands automatically vote as the ROC directs?

And the comment: The history section jumps from World War II to 1998. A gap of more than fifty years that including, among other things, its 1978 independence! Mapjc (talk) 14:33, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

The vital votes is in relation to the existence of two chinese governments, but only one chinese UN seat. It was originally the Republic of Chinas (In control of Taiwan) but was given to the Peoples Republic of China (Rest of China) in the 1970s (I think, correct me on the date if I am wrong), as more countries recognized the PRC. The government which received the most votes was in the UN, hence the 'vital vote', (though I'm not sure how it qualifies as vital)
As for the history, I noticed that too. I am going to try and add that, and shorten the section generally, as there is a seperate history article. Remember, be WP:BOLD and edit where you see fit. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 15:01, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

History Section

Latest comment: 14 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

The history section seems overly long for a general overview. It also lacked an independence section, which I added. The whole thing needs to be shortened and rewritten. The Civil War Section especially needs reworking. It reads like a PHD thesis, not an encyclopaedia article. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 15:45, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Latest comment: 14 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

I have removed the following link from the External links (other) section: [2] The images on the page linked to contain racist language such as "Pikinnini" as descriptors of children from the islands. Other descriptors include "More pikinnini, W.Province." For context of removal See: Pickaninny: "Pickaninny (also picaninny or piccaninny) is an offensive derogatory term in English that refers to black children or a racist caricature thereof. It is a pidgin word form, which may be derived from the Portuguese pequenino (an affectionate term derived from pequeno ("little")." --Hartopp (talk) 23:01, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

"Pikinini", apart from any English meaning/connotations, is also the most common Solomon Islands Pijin word for "child", with no negative connotations. For instance, the only Pijin version of the Bible uses the word freely (published by the Bible Society of the South Pacific). I find it very hard to imagine a Solomon Islander being offended by it. Notice also that the Wikipedia page you linked now describes it as only a "potentially" offensive term in English. Dan (talk) 20:59, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

The Name

Latest comment: 13 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Why are they called "Soloman" Islands? Was this a British name given to them on discovery? Was there a native name? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.178.74.52 (talk) 20:49, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

This is discussed at History_of_the_Solomon_Islands#European_exploration. Good Ol’factory (talk) 03:36, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

which solomon islands were german territory?

Latest comment: 12 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

when i looked up german colonies in the pacific in the section saying today a part of it had soloman islands. so which solomon islands exactly were territory of germany's colonial empire? 76.244.154.251 (talk) 05:21, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

More information is found at North Solomon Islands. CMD (talk) 10:23, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

makes no sense in English -

Latest comment: 12 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

"In late 1998, militants on the island of Guadalcanal commenced and had a campaign ..." - I don't have the source here, so I can't rewrite, but this should be corrected. HammerFilmFan (talk) 14:35, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Japanese

Latest comment: 9 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

The chapter "2nd World War" states that US troops were fighting Japanese. Yet nowhere before was there any mention of Japanese living there or having landed there. When did the Japanese get there in the first place?--dunnhaupt (talk) 22:22, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Latest comment: 9 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

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Question

Latest comment: 7 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

< On 27 December 2006, the Solomon Islands Government took steps to prevent the country's Australian police chief from returning to the Pacific nation. >


The reader has to guess that 'the Pacific nation' means 'the Solomon Islands'. Why not say so?


86.141.61.177 (talk) 01:11, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

Latest comment: 6 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

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Comment

Latest comment: 6 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

»The Solomon Islands are a nation in the South Pacific Ocean, east of Papua New Guinea...« As a physical geographical description it would be probably more appropriate to say »... east of New Guinea is the island's eastern half). --Peterlin 13:00, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)

nothing posted since 2007? must be some newsJuror1 (talk) 20:06, 12 January 2018 (UTC)
Ignore. Is OK as stated in the article. Comment by Peterlin makes no sense on at least two counts. Ex nihil (talk) : Ex nihil (talk) 12:52, 13 January 2018 (UTC)

Contradictions in the article

Latest comment: 6 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

The article states: "There were 74 languages spoken in the Solomon Islands, although four of these are extinct.[4]

How can a spoken language be extinct?

A language is said to be "extinct" when it no longer has any living native speakers. 2601:283:4302:C5D0:14C0:A1A9:513A:CF7D (talk) 06:38, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

As in, it was spoken, but is no longer common. Latin is an extinct language.138.163.160.43 14:49, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

General Clean-up

Latest comment: 5 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

The blurb about Jacob C. Vouza stated that he received the highest American award for bravery, without stating what it was. I fixed it, but it seems awkward. Someone have a better phrasing?

[3]

One of the most highly decorated coastwatchers was Sergeant Major Jacob C. Vouza who retired from the local constabulary in 1941, volunteered for coastwatcher duty, but was subsequently captured, tortured, then bayoneted and left to die. He survived and escaped to make contact with Marines warning them of an impending Japanese attack. He recovered from his wounds and continued to scout for the Marines. He was awarded the Silver Star and Legion of Merit by the United States and later received a knighthood as a Member of the British Empire.

Rktect 22:28, 28 May 2007 (UTC) 65.102.151.100 (talk) 05:48, 19 December 2018 (UTC)It appears that the comments regarding the numbers of Japanese killed, in the second world war section appear incorrect;

The original statement reads; "Of more than 36,000 Japanese on Guadalcanal, about 26,000 were killed or missing, 9,000 died of disease, and 1,000 were captured."

Correct figures , according to [1] identify total Japanese casualties as: Landed 31,358. Withdrawn 10,665.

KIA 12,507 Died of wounds 1,931 disease deaths 4,203 Missing 2,497 Total losses of 21,138

No mention is given in original text of the 10,665 sucessfully evacuated from the Island 65.102.151.100 (talk) 05:48, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ "Guadalcanal" - by Richard B. Frank (pp763 of footnotes, corresponding to pp613 in the text)

Solomon Islands Information Poster

Latest comment: 4 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion

Please could someone upload an image I uploaded today and attach the file to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon_Islands#Water_and_sanitation It is a "Solomon Islands Government Information Poster from the mid-1970s" (collected when I was working there and it now hangs in my bathroom)! As I am sure you will realise, it is written in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pijin_language (more commonly referred to there as Pijin English). Sorry, but I do not know how to put the image on the page. Many thanks. I also have images of the beautiful craftware produced in the Solomons should these be of interest? Arbil44 (talk) 21:59, 4 November 2019 (UTC) Just to add, by way of explanation, I am 75 years old and find the IT side of Wiki technology very difficult indeed. It's a generational thing and many of my friends don't even have computers. If there is a computer whizz-kid available to put the Poster on the relevant section of the article I would be most grateful. If anyone thinks my further potential images of the beautiful Solomons' craftwork would be of value, then I can contribute in that fashion too, but I regret that at my age I am unlikely to be able to improve much on the IT skills, although I have managed to upload the image to WikiCommons. Arbil44 (talk) 12:27, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

Moving forward in baby steps, but I have uploaded the image. Now the caption is wrong and needs to be "Solomon Islands Government Information Poster from the mid-1970s" with a link to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pijin_language (more commonly referred to there as Pijin English). This I know is entirely beyond me to do myself. Arbil44 (talk) 01:55, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
Done. Cordless Larry (talk) 09:37, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

Latest comment: 4 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 21:54, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

Independence Act 1978

Latest comment: 4 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

A discussion at Talk:Commonwealth realm[4] mentions the UK legislation annexing the British Solomon Islands and so changing the territory's status from protectorate to dominion to enable the transition to independent sovereign realm. Qexigator (talk) 06:21, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Official name

Latest comment: 4 years ago25 comments10 people in discussion

As far as I know, it's conventional for Wikipedia to use the name an English-speaking country gives itself. In English, Solomon Islands calls itself "Solomon Islands", with no definite article. See for example the Constitution, or the website of the National Parliament. Likewise the country's press: See for example this article in the Solomon Star, or this one on the Solomon Times. It's also called "Solomon Islands" rather than "the Solomon Islands" in Australian English (http://www.aspi.org.au/publications/publication_details.aspx?ContentID=30).
For now, I'm simply going to make a note of the usage in the article. But if there are no major objections, I'll fix the name throughout the article in a week or two. Aridd (talk) 12:02, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

I agree and would support the removal of the definite article, for the reason you give -- it's up to the government of an English-speaking country to determine the English name of that country. There is no hard-and-fast rule as to whether a country name "should" include the definite article, the country (or rather the government) just decides for itself. The Marshalls and the Cooks clearly include it, as did Solomon Islands before independence, but that's irrelevant. It's clouded slightly by the fact that usage isn't 100% consistent anywhere, whether in Australia or in Solomons, even within government. But the vast majority of the most authoritative documents available use no definite article. I could add a couple more examples, like the Cotonou Agreement (on p4 and elsewhere of the 2005 revision) and the Pacific Islands Forum Secretariat consistently omits the definite article. And here's a book published by Sols' Ministry of Foreign Affairs that omits it. I think there's a strong case for removal in this article and any other article that refers to the country. Of course, the geographical archipelago is a different matter. Dan (talk) 21:35, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
Can we re-open this issue? I kind of disagree, based on WP:COMMONNAME. To my knowledge, we don't defer to the English name that the country chooses for itself. We defer to WP:COMMONNAME, and from what I can see that seems to be to use the "the" (except at the beginning of a phrase or sentence, as would be expected). I'm not arguing that the official name doesn't use the "the", just that most sources do and that using it would be the common name. This would not affect the name of this article, but relates to the naming of other articles like Politics of Solomon Islands/Politics of the Solomon Islands. Good Ol’factory (talk) 02:40, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
Hmm. It's a bit of a tricky one. Isn't there a Wikipedia policy which says that, for articles about an English speaking country, the local variant of English is acceptable, even preferred? Plus, even if most people outside the Solomons tag on a definite article, it's presumably because they assume there should be one, based on the ordinary rules of English grammar. I would hazard a guess that most people don't actually know that Solomon Islanders don't use a definite article for their country's name. Thus it's not so much a case of "common name" as of ignorance (in a non-pejorative sense of that word). Hence, RAMSI, an international operation, is called "Regional Assistance Mission to Solomon Islands" (with no article), because those involved actually do know what the country is called. In specialist usage, you find the local name respected; for instance, the definite article is lacking in this Australian publication about Solomon Islands. Also, it seems odd to me for us to "correct" (as it were) a country's official name...
Whatever the consensus may be on that broad issue, there are also some finer points. Do we agree, for instance, that "National Parliament of Solomon Islands", which is the official name of a government institution, should not be "corrected"? Likewise titles, such as "Governor-General of Solomon Islands", which is constitutionally defined (art.27), and which is respected as such by (for example) the Governor-General of Australia (who also calls the country "Solomon Islands" rather than "the Solomon Islands"), or by the Commonwealth? Aridd (talk) 23:26, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
I'm not a super-expert on WP guidelines, but I am not aware of a guideline that says we favour official names of governmental bodies and the like over the WP:COMMONNAME principles. I think we look to what reliable sources call the body, and if there is a dominant name that is used, we go with that. In your first sentence, I think you're referring to the WP:ENGVAR guideline, which does favour local variants of English, but AFAIK it typically deals with issues of spelling and choice of words rather than the choice of what a particular thing is called. But I do see and understand your point that if it's usually referred to in a certain way in SI media, why should foreign media override this. ... I agree it's a bit of a difficult situation, and maybe it requires some broad input. At the very least, I thought that the articles should probably go through the WP:RM process to remove the "the", which is why I moved some of them back. It's not that I couldn't support the removal if consensus was to go that way, but I haven't seen much discussion on this, that's all. Good Ol’factory (talk) 23:31, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
Ah yes, I was thinking of ENGVAR. As for WP:RM... I suppose you're right, yes; that's the best place to obtain broader input. I'll try to get round to it reasonably soon. Aridd (talk) 22:04, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
I'm not as knowledgeable as either of you on this subject, but I would note that WP:COMMONNAME includes its own specific subsection referring to National varieties of English which states that "an article on a topic that has strong ties to a particular English-speaking nation should use the variety of English appropriate for that nation", which I would take to mean that we should prioritise authoritative sources within Solomon Islands over foreign sources --- and the definite article is usually omitted not just in government sources but by the local press and radio, too. The only exception given is where the local name may be unintelligible to a foreign audience, but that's clearly not the case here. WP:RM seems sensible, though. Dan (talk) 21:48, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

It is time we settled this. The nation actually has an official name and it is not a matter of English usage. The correct term is legally defined as Solomon Islands without the definite article.
The name is first defined in the Constitution of Solomon Islands, as Solomon Islands and starts off "We the people of Solomon Islands, proud of the wisdom and the worthy customs of our ancestors, mindful of our common and diverse heritage and conscious of our common destiny, do now, under the guiding hand of God, establish the sovereign democratic State of Solomon Islands.
The United Nations gazetted English language name for the nation is: long form term Solomon Islands, short form term also Solomon Islands
Diplomatic protocols always get it right, which is why all the foreign embassies and high commissions and consulates are named similarly to The Australian High Commission, Solomon Islands or the Japanese Embassy, Solomon Islands and RAMSI was the Regional Assistance Mission Solomon Islands because the legal agreement under which RAMSI was permitted to operate had to reflect the legal entity name.
The Queen invariably uses the term Solomon Islands herself when addressing the nation as in The Queen's message to the Governor-General, Solomons Islands: "I was deeply saddened to learn of the devastating floods that have affected Solomon Islands during the last week." She tends to get these things right because she is good at these things, by contrast, her webmaster slips a bit and sometimes refers to her as the Queen of Solomon Islands and sometimes the Queen of the Solomon Islands. (I am writing to them now, so they may lift their game soon). I have the charter appointing the Governor General, which I cannot find a link to, but I can assure you she appointed Frank Kabui as the Governor General, Solomon Islands
The national anthem starts off : "God Save our Solomon Islands from shore to shore" and repeats this throughout.

Solomon Islanders would like people to call it Solomon Islands partly to distance themselves from their colonial history but they are facing an up-hill battle. Confusion arises from at least five sources:

  1. The pre-independence term The British Solomon Islands Protectorate, which was an administrative description rather than a name.
  2. The fact that the nation is sometimes referred to as the sovereign State of Solomon Islands (note the lower case s in sovereign because it is not part of the title) and the article gets transferred on truncating but that term is a description not the title.
  3. The Solomon Islands is a legitimate term referring to The Solomon Islands (archipelago) as this is a group of islands sharing similar ecological and geographical features but covers a different geographical area from the nation of Solomon Islands and includes bits of Papua New Guinea.
  4. During World War II the campaign referred to the Solomon Islands, meaning the archipelago, including the British Solomon Island Protectorate and other bits belonging to other people conveniently included for military reasons. That was fine, and the nation of Solomon Islands was yet to exist.
  5. Lastly the misnomer is perpetuated in websites such as Wikipedia.

It is pretty clear what the actual name. Unfortunately Wikipedia pages perpetuates the confusion by referring to it variously by both terms, we need to determine the correct term and use that throughout. I started doing that once but it tended to get reverted by people who counted Google hits (which will include the archipelago, WWII and pre-independence) The actual name of the nation is not what we think it might be, it just is. Wikipedia needs to establish the truth by doing the research and the links above are a start; we can't just do a Google hit vote and end up telling another country that their country's name is different to what they thought it was, it's an English speaking country and they read English Wikipedia expecting to find the truth.

I propose that: Having lived and worked in Solomon Islands, having worked in the justice system there for five years and being familiar with their legislation and observed their practices, and after people have satisfied themselves as to which is correct, we use the name Solomon Islands throughout when referring to the nation and retain the historical or geographical names when referring to things that are not the nation.

After being posted for nearly a year with none against the conclusion is that Solomon Islands is supported. Ex nihil (talk) : Ex nihil (talk) 15:56, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

@Ex nihil: This isn't how it works. Please start a formal RfC if you want a formally closed discussion. And also, there is clearly opposition to the proposal from at least one editor above. Number 57 16:21, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

If procedures had been followed and pages that you have moved and edited based on this discussion had been notified then perhaps there would have been more support. In any event, I'm not sure one editor proposing and another supporting makes a consensus strong enough to start moving other pages. --John B123 (talk) 16:27, 14 August 2019 (UTC) OK, how to we request a RfC? Ex nihil (talk) : Ex nihil (talk) 17:26, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

@Ex nihil: Here: Wikipedia:Requests for comment --John B123 (talk) 18:10, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Object - Now this discussion has been brought to my attention by a page move of another article, the Solomon Islands is the common usage. --John B123 (talk) 16:27, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
    • John B123, please read the discussion and the reasons carefully. Of course 'the' turns up more if you do a Google search because of its history, it's only been Solomon Islands since 1978, which is why there are so many pages that make a distiction between the Solomon Islands Campaign, The British Solomon Islands, the Solomon Islands archipelago, whether animal and plant distributions refer to the archipelago or the nation, the name on teh Constituion, etc. etc it is not so easy. Ex nihil (talk) : Ex nihil (talk) 17:26, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
      • I have read the previous discussion. I do not dispute the official name since 1978 is "Solomon Islands", but that does not change the fact it is generally referred to as the Solomon Islands. The same situation occurs with the United States, the Dominican Republic and particularly many islands such of the Isle of Man. In these cases "the" is not part of the countries name, but is how they are referred to in everyday use. The Solomon Islands is no different. --John B123 (talk) 18:06, 14 August 2019 (UTC
        • Is it too late to chime in? I lived and worked in the Solomon Islands from 1976-1980; so, before, during and after independence. The country was called the Solomon Islands at that time, although was coloquially referred to simply as "the Solomons". I uploaded several images to the page, indluding the commemorative coin produced for independence in 1978. The authentification certificate for the commemorative coin refers to "the Solomon Islands" in several places, yet the coin itself is embossed "Solomon Islands". [[5]]. Which is right? The process would have been scrutinised carefully before minting. This is a genuine question, and I am certainly not looking for an argument! It doesn't worry me either way, but I thought it worth mentioning.
        • I have an invitation which reads as follows: To mark the occasion of the introduction of the Solomon Islands Currency the Acting Honourable Chief Minister and the Chairman of the Monetary Authority request the pleasure of the company of Miss A. Newton at a Reception to be held in the Coastwatchers Room of the Mendana Hotel on Monday 24th October 1977 from 6.30 to 8.00 p.m. I tried to upload an image of the invitation, but it was rejected, presumably because I didn't print the invitation card myself. Anne (talk) 01:03, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
Well, the discussion is evidently over and closed, and the article's name is as it now is. But it would be good if the information you give here were added to the article , mentioning the coin whose image you uploaded, and could be moved from the gallery to the added text about it. Qexigator (talk) 07:38, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
Thank you for your reply Qexigator. I am notorious for my lack of IT skills on wp, so would you be prepared to do this for me? I do wish I had been able to upload the invitation itself, and since it was so long ago, and sent to me, I really don't understand why it was rejected. It would make the point much more positively wouldn't it? Alternatively, if you tell me what, exactly, and where, you would like me to add to the page, I'll have a go! Someone can then correct any mistakes I make! Anne (talk) 07:56, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
There may be a copyright issue regarding the invitation, but it is hard to know without seeing the original discussion. Regarding the issue, certainly usage is mixed, as evidenced by the difference between the coin and its certificate of authenticity. Consider adding them as well to History of Solomon Islands, rather than just this page. CMD (talk) 08:35, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

OK, so Cordless Larry has kindly found my image for me! But I am still unclear just what you would like me to do Qexigator? If you would do it, I feel sure it would be better... Anne (talk) 08:31, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

Thank you too Chipmunkdavis. I honestly don't have the confidence to start making changes on the article itself (without very clear guidance as to exactly how to phrase it) and am happy to leave it to others to do what may be best. More than happy for my invitation/information to be used. Anne (talk) 08:54, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

Anne, the invitation ‘the’ refers to the currency as it’s noun, not the country, which in this case is an adjective. To find the definitive name, read the Solomon Islands constitution, easy to Google, which refers throughout to Solomon Islands. Ex nihil (talk) 08:52, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

All the more reason for me to bow out now and leave it to anyone to use, or not use, any information or images I have provided. I am content with either scenario! Anne (talk) 09:02, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
The image of the invitation is interesting but doesn't really add to this article's content. Qexigator (talk) 09:21, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
I think you meant "doesn't" rather than "does" Qexigator! As I say, I am fine with whatever decision is made. I cannot help feeling invested in the discussion though - four years of my life was spent there - wherever "there" may now be! The 'authentification certificate' remains a conundrum all the same! I met Tarquin Olivier (Lord Olivier's son) who was heavily involved in the creation of the new currency. One of the highlights of my time "there", when sitting next to him at a dinner party! Anne (talk) 09:42, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

British Solomon Islands

Latest comment: 4 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Why does "British Solomon Islands" redirect to this article? That is just like "the 13 colonies" redirecting to the "United States"! Surely there should be a SEPARATE article on the former British colony?

Australian/RAMSI propaganda in article

Latest comment: 4 years ago4 comments4 people in discussion

There seem to be any number of Wikipedia articles hijacked by imperialist, Rightwing interests with agendas (something they are always quick to accuse us Leftists of) -- and the Solomon Islands article here appears to be one of these. Some day I'll have to slap pages like this with a NPOV claim (if someone doesn't beat me to it); but for now I'll simply object here, in the discussion page.

While solomon islanders themselves might not be spending a lot of time on Wikipedia if at all, that is no excuse for allowing pro-Oz imperialists -- including 'liberals' and NGO-types -- to simply take over Solomons citizens' interests on the Internet. The australians and others are causing enough damage on the ground in the Solomons as it is. And the fact that someone feels it important enough to hijack this page is proof enough that I am not barking up the wrong tree. This might even be Oz-imperial policy, worked out as part of the occupation plan, as far as I know.

But since I could not likely expect you people to admit to even having a non-NPOV agenda, let alone being imperialistic, working this article into objective shape will likely have to await the attentions of others. I'm busy.

Pazouzou (talk) 23:52, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

For your information, there is no "us people". Wikipedians are not a homogeneous entity. Among Wikipedians you will find people with all kinds of political views, including leftists (such as myself); most Wikipedians, whatever their own personal views, strive to make each article confirm to the NPOV policy. If you have noticed specific examples of bias in the article, please point them out. If you have links to credible sources which criticise RAMSI for its alleged "imperialism", you are not only invited but urged to provide them. Likewise if you have sources describing the "damage caused by Australians" in the Solomons. You may also wish to look at the article on RAMSI itself, and make suggestions. Are you disputing the facts as they're stated in the article, or are you saying that a particular slant exists in the writing, or are you saying that some crucial facts are missing? Simply saying "this article is biased" will achieve nothing if you don't give specific, concrete examples. Aridd (talk) 13:23, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
       Taking a NPOV stance(I use this term in line with the modern english speaking
       culture's love of acronmys in place of  full english, which I might point out was good  
       enough for Shakespeare, although I am yet to master it anywhere near to the level which 
       he did), I am curious to know whether you are willing to clarify some points in your 
       agruement or whether you will do as so many people do on the internet and simply make 
       claims and then run and hide when their claims are challenged. Once again, I stress 
       this is strictly from a NPOV. My reasoning is that I am tired of people making claims 
       and not willing to back / defend their agruement. A process, arguement followed by 
       rebuttal followed by supporting agruement/evidence, which forms part of the foundation 
       upon which free demoncratic societies, such as Australia, Unitied Kingdom and the 
       Unitied States Of America, etc, exist.



       Firstly, you say that "australians and others are causing enough damage on the ground 
       in the Solomons as it is". You speak as though you have been "on the ground". I am 
       curious if you are willing to clarigy when and where you were, as you say, "on the 
       ground" in the Solomon Islands.

       Secondly, as the previous commenter alludes to, are you able and willing to provide 
       documented evidence of the so called damage caused by Australians and others.

       Thirdly, and this not a question but rather a correction, the word "Australian" is  
       spelt with a capital "A". As Sun Tzu alludes to in his writings in the "Art of War", 
       one should ALWAYS maintain a healthy level of respect for one's opponent. In line with 
       this, the term "pro-Australia" should have been used in place of "pro-Oz". Only the 
       friends and allies of that country have the right to call it by it's nickname, and 
       clearly you are niether.

       Alas, I am resigned to the assumption that from your statement "I'm busy", you will not 
       complete the democratic, and what is considered polite/ respectful, process of 
       supporting your agruement with evidence or further agruement/debate, you will do as so 
       many do and simply hide from those who challenge your arguement and claims.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by OzDog26 (talk • contribs) 20:52, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Shell case - relic from World War ll salvaged from 'Iron Bottom Sound' in the mid 1970

Latest comment: 4 years ago14 comments5 people in discussion

Please may I ask why User:Monopoly31121993(2) has removed my image of a genuine relic from the war? Anne (talk) 22:25, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

You will have to ask Monopoly that one, but I suspect because the image makes no useful contribution to the discussion on Solomon Islands history. Ex nihil (talk) 11:50, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

That's a good image, but I must agree it doesn't contribute to the article content, Qexigator (talk) 12:56, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
Salvaging war memorabilia is a tourist attraction, and almost an industry in itself, not just in the 70s, but still today. Does it not deserve s mention - perhaps separately from the war itself? The Islanders are still making money from the war, and who can blame them?[6][7]. Perhaps User:Monopoly31121993(2) would consider that? Anne (talk) 13:01, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
The relevant consideration is WP:SUMMARYSTYLE. Certainly if there is information in sources about tourism in general and military tourism in particular, Economy of Solomon Islands is currently a very empty article. CMD (talk) 13:46, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
Thank you Chipmunkdavis. That seems a good idea. I don't know that I could add much more than I've said here, and I always have problems with getting my links properly formatted on main articles, but if the two links I've given above support my contention, would someone add a small bit to the Economy of Solomon Islands and use the shell case image? Sorry, but my IT skills are not good enough for wp I'm afraid. Anne (talk) 14:00, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
Hi Anne, The article is about the country and currently the history section needs A LOT of work. I started working on it but will be adding more in the days-weeks to come. I didn't really see the relevance of the image in terms of history so I added images that showed important people and places from across the country during the war that would be more relevant (I added one for Jacob C. Vouza, the landings on Rendova and Henderson Field). My next step is to try to write a bit more about the impact of the war on the local society because coming into contact with all the technology of the modern world was a big event for the Islanders just as it was for those people in Papua and other previously isolated communities. Please feel free to help out with images or text if you can. I'll add you picture to the tourism page though in case it isn't there already.Monopoly31121993(2) (talk) 15:56, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
Hi Monopoly31121993(2). That's fine! I took Chipmunkdavis' advice and have added a sentence to Economy of Solomon Islands under Tourism. As you will see, I have not got the links correctly formatted unfortunately, and I think the image needs to be moved under the text. I'm sorry to be dumb on these issues, but that is the reason I don't like to edit here any more. I have lost all confidence I once might have had. I've got an image of the Duchess of Gloucester dancing at the Independence Ball, and other images from that event, but I couldn't possibly cope with the copyright side of that, since they are all official images, and I would have no clue how to get permission so long after the event.Anne (talk) 16:08, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Anne, thank you for your edits. Sadly, the tourism industry is tiny, less than USD2m/annum, even though SI is a fabulous country to visit if you know what you are doing. There used to be WW2 tours run once or twice a year, but the gentleman who ran those has regrettably passed away. The diving industry has enormous potential, but there are only two livaboards in the country and a handful of excellent dive operations. The Tech diving on the very deep Iron Bottom Sounds WW2 wrecks is stratospherically elitist diving. Extremely good though.

Regarding the invitation, I note in passing that it is dated 1977; in 1977 the name of the place was indeed the Solomon Islands and everybody was used to using that. The next year, 1978, it was officially Solomon Islands as per their constitution[1], the new national anthem, the Governor General's title, etc. etc. etc. Googling the term always turns up far more instances with the 'the' but this is because for much of history it was the British Solomon Islands Protectorate, The Solomon Islands pre-1978, the Solomon Islands archipelago or the World War theatre of war in the Solomon islands archipelago. I am led to believe by one of the architects of the Constitution that 'the' was considered to look like it was a colonial possession that they wanted to distancer themselves from, "Those Solomon islands we own out there", and making it all a proper noun, the sovereign democratic State of Solomon Islands sounded more like an independent country like Vanuatu and Her Majesty shall be the Head of State of Solomon Islands so, she is teh Queen of Solomon Islands and would be far too diplomatice to ever refer to them as the... I have some photographs of the aviation museum and the tables of relics in the village above Tanule Ridge and might try uploading them, maybe to the Economy page rather than here. One day. Do not be discouraged, Anne, if you have things to say, please persist. Ex nihil (talk) 17:13, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ "Solomon Islands: Constitution of 1978". ConstitutionNet. Retrieved 2020-06-10.
Thanks nihil . I don't have a lot to contribute tbh. For me it all happened 45 years ago, memories fade and things change. The several images I have uploaded are probably the sum total of what I can contribute. I love my "Hao Yu Usim Kloset" and it still lives in my bathroom! You say, "I am led to believe by one of the architects of the Constitution that 'the' was considered to look like it was a colonial possession that they wanted to distance themselves from," If I was a betting person I'd likely say your source was Tony Hughes! He was my boss at the Ministry of Finance and had a finger in every single pie in the country! Working for him often felt like his office (therefore me too) was running the entire country! Anyway, I will be happy to contribute more should something crop up that seems a possibility. If there is an appropriate place for Tarquin Olivier's involvement in the creation of the SI currency, then his time with De La Rue (Hong Kong office) is mentioned here: [8] [9]Anne (talk) 17:48, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
'the' was considered to look like it was a colonial possession that they wanted to distancer themselves from, "Those Solomon islands we own out there", How feudal, as if The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is a colony or dominion or appanage of the remnant of the Duchy of Normandy, or The United States of America is a protectorate of the successors in title to the founding ex-colonies in congress assembled.[10] Thanks all for the above information, which would be good to see somewhere in Wikipedia. Qexigator (talk) 06:44, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
I know talk pages are not supposed to be chat rooms (more's the pity!) so I will shut up after this! I went to the Independence Ball on the arm of Ben Kinika, Minister of Finance [[11]], who invited me to join him (I was thrilled of course) because his wife was too shy to attend. If only I could upload the images I have, but I dare not for fear of instant banning. On another occasion, I was dancing with Peter Kenilorea (by then Prime Minister). He told me he had to dash, and thrust me into the arms of another man, who I didn't know - to quote Charlotte Brontë, "reader, I married him"! My memories of serving in the Solomons are mainly very happy ones. Apart from the huge earthquake, the year of which I now don't recall (but 1977 I think). I wouldn't have missed that 'life experience' though. Sorry for my witterings...oh, yes, the 12 foot python in my flat and the rat the size of a cat too - some stories wouldn't be believed though! Anne (talk) 10:26, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
Maybe put the images on your user page? Qexigator (talk) 13:54, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
I don't think I'd be able to upload to WikiCommons without copyright permission unfortunately, and who to approach about that after so long? Anne (talk) 14:03, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

The SI page is being attacked

Latest comment: 4 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Could someone involved in this page do something about this please: "Solomon Islands is a island where 96 per cent of the people living there cannot see properly, mentally disabled or visually impaired. Furthermore, people there are mostly gay to people named micheal, felix and charles"? Anne (talk) 13:40, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

Cluebot has taken care of it. CMD (talk) 14:57, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

Official name and category names

Latest comment: 4 years ago26 comments4 people in discussion
  Moved from Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Speedy § Opposed requests
 – TSventon (talk) 10:16, 12 September 2020 (UTC)
Thanks, @TSventon. That's better: only one external source is still a bit weak for me to actually support, but it is a prima facie case. I reckoned it would be enough to keep my promise of a procedural nomination, but then I found that my Petscan search gave me a list of 510 categories: https://petscan.wmflabs.org/?psid=17318925. (I was surprised. I expected about 75 cats).
I will proceed on that basis if you want (since that was my promise) ... but can you find anything more solid? 510 cats is a big nomination to do without a firm base. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:44, 9 September 2020 (UTC)
@BrownHairedGirl, what would you like to see to support a big nomination? Would a request for comment on the question of "Solomon Islands" or "the Solomon Islands" be advisable? I am not an expert on (the) Solomon Islands or mass changes to categories so I am happy to take advice. Wikipedia articles on the country seem to have moved to the official form, leaving the categories with "the", so there is an inconsistency that should be resolved.
"Only" 458 of the categories contain "the Solomon Islands" and one is "Flora of the Solomon Islands (archipelago)", leaving 457 to be changed. The report excludes categories starting with "Solomon Islands" (which would not need to be changed) so it understates the number of categories linked to the country. Category:Biota of the Solomon Islands and Category:Lists of biota of the Solomon Islands seem ambiguous between the country "Solomon Islands" and the archipelago, so that should probably be resolved first.
I think the decision id subjective: more examples are britannica which does not use the, and Australian Broadcasting Corporation and BBC which do use the. TSventon (talk) 07:50, 10 September 2020 (UTC)
Update: I have now posted a question at Category talk:Biota of the Solomon Islands#Scope of category and been told that the category does relate to the country rather than the archipelago. TSventon (talk) 18:08, 10 September 2020 (UTC)
Sorry, @TSventon. You are right about the number. Here's the correct search:https://petscan.wmflabs.org/?psid=17329102, which indeed has 458 hits as you noted. (My initial search got mangled by the autocorrect in that box on Petscan's output tab.)
Given that two major news organisations use the definite article, it seems to me that this is not clearcut, and the CFD outcome is unpredictable. If it closes as don't-rename, that's over 900 tagging and untagging edits to no avail.
So I strongly recommend an RFC to examine the question ... and than a CfD if needed. But that's your call. I promised to make the full CfD nom, so if you still want to do that, I will make it. Just let me know. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:54, 10 September 2020 (UTC)
  • Evidence. I just did what I should have done when first pinged here: a JSTOR search, which concentrates scholarly sources:
  1. "in Solomon Islands": 1,157 hits
  2. "in the Solomon Islands": 4,108 hits
So, a 4:1 majority of the scholars prefer using the definite articles. That's good enough for me to firmly oppose any deviation from the obvious English-language usage. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 04:34, 12 September 2020 (UTC)
@BrownHairedGirl, thanks for all your help and advice. I think a RFC would be best, preceded by an exploratory discussion on the Solomon Islands talkpage. I am neutral on the question, but I would like to resolve the inconsistency between article pages, which largely don't use the definite article and the category pages, which do.
The question is about current usage for the independent country since 1978. "The" is standard for the colony before 1978 and the archipelago, which also includes Bougainville in Papua New Guinea. I have filtered the JSTOR results for publications from 2001 to 2020:
  1. "in Solomon Islands": 901 hits
  2. "in the Solomon Islands": 1,987 hits
I looked at the first page of "in the Solomon Islands" and concluded that 12 of the 25 articles referred to the archipelago or the pre 1978 history of the Solomon Islands. That suggests that 21st century usage by scholars on JSTOR for the independent country is balanced between the two alternatives. TSventon (talk) 07:13, 12 September 2020 (UTC)
@TSventon, sorry this sin't as straightforward as first appears, and thanks for being so nice about my niggles.
Your data on more recent usage is interesting, but whatever view anyone reaches on the merits of this, the one bottom line should be that usage must be consistent in all Solomon Islands categories, regardless of what time period they relate to. Any variation would make a nightmare for editors to manage.
Many categories now rely on templates to create a standardised category, and they resolve question of whether to use a definite article by calling {{CountryPrefixThe}}. The set of categories which use that template is growing rapidly, and if the question needs a selective answer then that template gains ugly complexity. Please keep it simple: either it's always "the Solomon Islands" or always "Solomon Islands", with no exceptions. Remember that per WP:CAT the main purpose of categories is navigation; and excessive grammatical refinement could impede navigation. A category title is not a piece of literary prose; it's a navigational label, like a signpost ... and like a signpost it needs to be concise and consistent. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 07:32, 12 September 2020 (UTC)
@BrownHairedGirl I am happy to benefit from your technical knowledge and hear about any potential problems now rather than later. How would you tackle the current inconsistencies? I am still inclined to start a conversation with interested editors and then a RFC and could mention potential problems at both stages.
Thanks, @TSventon. Glad this is helpful.
Not sure what you means by Would "the Solomon Islands (archipelago)", "the British Solomon Islands" and "Solomon Islands" be a problem?
My concern is simply that for every category beginning "Topic in/of/from [the] Solomon Islands [maybe more words]", there should be same answer to the question of whether to use the definite article. That way, {{CountryPrefixThe}} either includes "Solomon Islands" or omits it. If the answer isn't a clearcut yes or no, then:
  1. a hell of a lot of other templates will have to be made more complex by passing other parameters to {{CountryPrefixThe}}
  2. we will have to create category redirects for all SI articles to help readers and editors who can't be expected to know the rules on to when to use "the".
The consistency issues mostly apply to descriptive titles per WP:NDESC, so proper names shouldn't be a problem, but there may be exceptions. Some cases are not clearcut.
Personally, I think it's simplest all round to stick with current usage: always use "the". I can't see any advantage in diverging from natural language when the alternative is still a long way short of universally-adopted.
This discussion is now too long for here. It should be moved to some talk page,possibly Talk:Solomon Islands. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 09:59, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

@BrownHairedGirl I have moved the discussion as suggested. I think that I need to collapse it and start a new discussion to see whether active SI editors are interested in tidying up the articles and categories on the country so that they use or don't use "the" consistently. If there is no interest then things can stay as they are. If there is interest a WP:RFC would be needed. If "the" is preferred then a number of SI articles need moving and rewording. If "the" is deprecated then around 450 categories need to be moved (I think redirects could be created automatically if they were moved with redirect). {{CountryPrefixThe}} would omit "Solomon Islands". The former colony, British Solomon Islands, and the Solomon Islands (archipelago) would still use "the" but they are not current countries. TSventon (talk) 11:26, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the move, @TSventon. I agree with your approach to proceeding with the discussion ... but not with your final comments. Most categories relating to the period of British colonisation are named without the word "British", so we have Category:1960s in the Solomon Islands (colonial era) and Category:1990s in the Solomon Islands (independent era). Great disruption and complexity would be caused by either or both of:
  • changing the pre-indy titles to "British Solomon Islands". Name changes are a pain for chronology categories, and I am not persuaded that prefixing the name of the coloniser is accurate naming for the colonial era in most countries. LLLIt is appropriate when the sources use it for disambiguation of the subdivisiosns controlled by each of multiple colonisers, e.g. in British/French/Danish/Portuguese India ... but that was not the case here.
  • using a definite article only post-indy creates consistency problems as above.
More fundamentally, it seems that scholarly sources are not consistent in their usage, even in recent times. So I see no need either to change the style use in all categories, or to change the style used in some articles. Both are acceptable usage. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 11:49, 12 September 2020 (UTC)
@BrownHairedGirl, to clarify what I was trying to say was that I don't think that Category:People executed by the British Solomon Islands needs to be changed to Category:People executed by British Solomon Islands. I don't want to add "British" to categories where it isn't already present. I agree on not creating inconsistency by using definite articles pre-independence and not post independence. TSventon (talk) 13:26, 13 September 2020 (UTC)
@TSventon, thanks for that clarification.
But just trying to be clear about what you do propose, I infer from the above that your view would support the following renamings:
Have I understood you correctly? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:43, 13 September 2020 (UTC)
@BrownHairedGirl, I would suggest removing "the" in all subcategories of Category:History of the Solomon Islands by period, but am open to other arguments. This differs from the treatment of subcategories of Category:History of the Czech Republic by period, but the Czech categories are better populated than the SI ones.
I am mainly concerned by the inconsistency between articles like Politics of Solomon Islands and categories like Category:Politics of the Solomon Islands. Are you happy to leave that inconsistency or would you support moving Politics of Solomon Islands back to Politics of the Solomon Islands? TSventon (talk) 20:31, 13 September 2020 (UTC)
@TSventon, I am not bothered either way about that inconsistency. It's a minor thing. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:34, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

If I may be of assistance? I worked in 'the' Solomon Islands between 1976-1980 and, as has been said, pre-independence the 'the' was most certainly in use. Because an image I placed on the page, earlier on, has been nominated for deletion I have had a great deal of contact with an official in the SI government of late. He is the Registrar General and he definitely refers only to Solomon Islands without the 'the'! Also, out of curiosity, I did a Google search for my old boss! He had been working at a Government level for a good decade before I arrived in 1976 (by which time he was the Permanent Secretary at the Ministry of Finance). He is still very actively involved in the islands' economic development. Rather to my surprise I found him here [12] and the point I am making is that Tony Hughes has been involved in Solomon Islands continuously since the 1960s and he leaves out the 'the'. For clarity, I personally hate it without the 'the' but regrettably I think Tony Hughes knows what he is talking about! Maybe this will save editors some time? Best wishes Anne (talk) 11:35, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

BrownHairedGirl I am not sure if there was an edit clash or whether you have not yet seen my post, but I would be glad to know if what I have said will be taken into account? Anne (talk) 11:57, 12 September 2020 (UTC)
Hi Anne, there was indeed an edit conflict, but (as far as I can see) your comment has no bearing on what I was saying about the need for consistency in categorisation. So I saw no need to revise my comment before posting. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:15, 12 September 2020 (UTC)
I must have misunderstood - I thought the discussion was, at least in part, to ascertain whether it should be The Solomon Islands, or, Solomon Islands. If this is not the case, then my apologies. However, I would only reiterate that Tony Hughes is a long-standing veteran Solomon Islands Government advisor who definitely knows what he is talking about. I will refrain from contributing now. Anne (talk) 12:26, 12 September 2020 (UTC)
Sorry, @Anne, some misunderstanding.
Yes, the discussion is indeed to ascertain whether it should be The Solomon Islands, or, Solomon Islands, ... but with a focus on usage in category titles. Your comment was wholly on topic.
My concern is narrower: that regardless what editors might think is the ideal formula, categorisation needs consistent terminology. So I was replying to a comment by an editor with who i was discussing that point.Your comment had a different focus which doesn't relate to the consistency issue. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:43, 12 September 2020 (UTC)
Oh, right BrownHairedGirl, how confusing it can be what with replies to others and edit conflicts thrown in too! Just in case the dreaded "the" is ever under discussion again, well, Tony Hughes is your man on the matter as per the video link I gave! Anne (talk) 12:53, 12 September 2020 (UTC)
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