Talk:Shepherd's pie/Archive 1

Archive 1

Image

Wow, that picture is messy. Are there any free alternatives to that? Zsinj^Talk 18:07, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

I might be making a pie next week. I'll take a picture of it for you and pop it into Wikipedia. I'll try not to be too messy. 8^).EasyTiger10 22:22, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Fluff

It's not just people from Quebec that call it Pate chinois, it's all French Canadians.

Is what you call mince in Britain just what we call ground beef.

Yes I think so.

Because to an American it sounds like mincemeat which is a whole other thing.

As it is in england. Mincemeat is sweet. Go figure.

Also don't you use vegetable in shephard's pie? An typical American recipe would be ground beef, corn -maize- and mashed potatoes. Rmhermen 15:16 Mar 28, 2003 (UTC) That would be Cottage pie, not Sheperds' pie

Corn sounds yuck! I've amended the page to take note of you comments. Thanks for the feedbackTheresa knott 15:30 Mar 28, 2003 (UTC)

---

I've never heard of veggies being added to it in the States, particularly not corn of any kind. (Aside from the cooked onions, that is, and possibly a little bit of cooked garlic for the adventurous, and maybe a little tomato paste in the gravy.) The French, who also eat enormous amounts of it as hachis parmentier, don't put veggies in it either.

Two questions: why, in the recipe, discard the water if thick gravy is used instead? In fact, why cook the meat and onions in water in the first place if the water is going to be discarded? It doesn't make sense -- both the meat and onions have already been cooked, and they are going to bake for another 45 minutes or so when assembled....

And why is this recipe here in Wikipedia rather than the recipe book? A couple of months ago one of my first articles was for Tartiflette, which had been mentioned under Reblochon. I contributed my own recipe and it was put up for deletion (and moving it to the recipe book). I argued that it should remain in Wikipedia but lost.... Maybe no one officious enough has noticed the shepherd's pie recipe? Hayford Peirce 23:27, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Recipes tend to be allowed only where it is valuable in describing the dish to someone who does not know what it is. If this can be achieved (accurately) without a recipe, recipes aren't required. Whether thats the case here or not, answers on a postcard.........Patch86 23:30, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

There is no real defined recipe for shepherd's pie or cottage pie - everyone does it their own way, often with the same result. For example I'd fry onions, garlic and the meat, crumble in a couple of stock cubes then add a can of chopped tomatoes, herbs a handful of frozen peas and some chopped carrot. Never heard of anyone using redcurrant jelly!

In Australia, despite our massive sheep population, Shepherd's pie is almost exclusively made with minced beef and baked with a top layer of grated cheddar cheese. The beef/onion mixture is often cooked with a handful of frozen peas, or with grated carrot and zucchini that disappears into the mixture, which is usually thickened with a commercial gravy mix (e.g."Gravox", cf. British "Bisto"). Many households have shepherd's pie weekly and most frozen food manufacturers have a "TV dinner" variant. --MichaelGG 02:42, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Tomato Puree

Sounds like nonsense to me! At the top of the article it states that this is a traditional dish. How long have tomatoes been available in the UK? With tomatoes it sounds like a "bolognese" pie;-) TinyMark 18:54, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Admiral's Pie?

I can find no historical or traditional reference to admiral's pie. It seems to be a marketing idea of Young's Seafood Limited. If, as the main article states, it is fisherman's pie made with cream then it is simply fisherman's pie. I suspect that the term "admiral's pie" is used commercially to signal a better-than-average (more expensive) oven-ready meal. Letsgetthingsright (talk) 00:14, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Weird Link

If you want to see something strange click on Français, on the left of this article, and then click on English in the French article. TinyMark 19:03, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Cute. Hard to know what to do about that, if anything. The two recipes are similar but not quite the same. --El Ingles 19:12, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

There are many variations on hachis parmentier and many variations on cottage or shepherd's pie. They are essentially the same and it's only the fact that the two hachis parmentier articles (English and French) are based on just one of many recipes that makes them seem in any way different to cottage pie and shepherd's pie. In fact, one recipe for hachis parmentier (not mentioned) is listed by Escoffier: the basic ingredients (chopped meat and mashed potato) are the same but the result isn't school dinner the way I knew it. Letsgetthingsright (talk) 21:20, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

What is "china pie"?

Despite glib advice from Thedarxide, I can find no substantiation for the inclusion of "china pie". I can only guess that it's a short form of Chinese pie, which is an alternative North American term for shepherd's pie, duly discussed in the article.

Certainly, the reference to china pie was introduced by someone with a USA IP address (72.73.96.99).

Let's bear in mind that this is an article about an essentially English traditional dish and if a minority in the USA have other names for it, let them say so in a fitting context, with citations.

81.153.198.83 (talk) 21:36, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Glib advice? All you had to do was put china pie into the search box. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_pie. It's even listed in the variations section of the article. Thedarxide (talk) 08:51, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, glib. A Google search for "china pie" results in thousands of opportunities to buy pie dishes made from china clay. Since as you now point out, "china pie" is indeed a short form of Chinese pie, it is already included in the article in a suitable context and does not need to be repeated among the accepted UK English names. 81.153.198.83 (talk) 11:51, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Merge with French dish?

Someone suggested merging Cottage Pie with hachis Parmentier, but gave no reason.

The two dishes developed within different culinary cultures and involve different ranges of methods and ingredients. A link between the articles serves readers well and enables the articles to develop independently, as with Chinese pie.

Believe It Or Not (talk) 13:39, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

This article is already ridiculously biased towards the Francophile perspective, as are so many culinary articles on Wikipedia. Contrary to what so many people pedagogically learn in culinary school or certain television shows and magazines, the French did not invent the overwhelming majority of recipes we have in the world today, as much as that there's a modern trend by people who culturally "appropriate" or "attribute" them to the French recipe cannon. Quite often, such recipes have deeper origins, if not cross-cultural influences. Wikipedia needs to reverse this kind of imperialistic, colonialist, and ethnocentric bias of French culinary interpretation and attributions on everything, as it's become riddled in too many articles, and also impacting our searches on web browsers, or even virtual assistant devices (intelligent virtual assistant / IVA or intelligent personal assistant / IPA) like Apple's Siri, Amazon's Alexa, and Google's Assistant.

As an example, this article discusses the Cottage Pie, which is similar to the Shepard's pie with lamb; but from there, it goes to the French dish known as "Hachis Parmentier" and it's even been suggested that it should be merged into the French, and not vice versa. But, this article doesn't compare it to something like Greek "moussaka" and so on. We may not know the exact origins of moussaka any more than cottage pie, Shepard's pie, or hachis Parmentier, but it could also have roots or influences from Arab cuisine, then carried into modern Europe, bounced around the greater region or continents, and altered to Arabic preferences, as well as introduced to Greece via Turkey, and so on.

Plus, Scotland apparently makes its shepherd’s pies with pastry instead of mashed potatoes. So, there's likely to be similar ideas in other nations or cultures.

By the way, there's no consideration that most botanists, anthropologists, and historians seem to attribute the origin of the potato to what's now known as the nation of Peru, whereas the people of that culture have a recipe called “pastel de papa”. At that, how did the potato transfer from South America to England, Europe, the Arab world, and so on, which is aside from variations on a recipe?

Botato

Botatoe? Potato? Potatoe? --Kaiolav72 02:59, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

A google search didn't show much for Botatoe, so I'm going to assume that was a typo. Please assume good faith if my change is wrong. - TheMightyQuill 09:47, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

I can't believe you haven't heard of a botato. Not Josh (talk) 20:17, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

The "is it a pie" guff

Well cited, whomever decided it was important to ask the "is it a pie" question. I can't fault that the sources exist. However, is this notable? In introducing this dish, is there really any need to raise the point, supported by some silly editorialising, that some people like to discuss the semantics of what may or may not be a pie? A counterargument to the effect that other pastry-free pies, such as the fisherman's pie, is irrelevant the question of whether "some have asked the question ...", as the citations support the fact that they have; however such an argument may at least serve to highlight, that it is a silly, fatuous questions, that we need not dignify here, however many examples we may find of it being asked.

Accordingly deleted (non-notable).--Che Gannarelli (talk) 12:14, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Americans

Could you clarify? Do you actually call the pie made of beef with potato on top "Shepherd's pie"? Skittle 16:56, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes. -TheMightyQuill 16:15, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I may go fiddle with some of the wording in the article then! Skittle 17:27, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Just wondering why this page is a "stub"? It had more information then most similar pages in Wikipedia.

These wiki-ratings ("stub", "start class" etc) are suitable for being completely ignored. They're assigned by people who enjoy the spurious sense of authority it lends them but who can't be arsed to do any research/rewrites themselves. El Ingles 21:35, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Or you could just remove the stub tag. And why would this be a pie-related stub, anyway? I mean, by all means shepherd's pie isn't actually a pie, is it? Calgary 19:24, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

What? Yes it is. There is a whole class of pies with a mashed-potato topping rather than pastry (fish pie, cottage pie, shepherd's pie). There's more pies in heaven and Earth... Skittle 22:34, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

It's always been called Hungarian goulash in my family.76.210.248.221 (talk) 04:32, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Proposed merge

As far as I can see, all the information on the Shepherdess Pie page is already here. Perhaps just delete the text from "Shepherdess Pie" and do a redirect to this article! TinyMark 19:44, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

I concur. --Zeamays 18:38, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Ditto. Thedarxide (talk) 12:08, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

So, what's the difference between Shepherd's Pie and Shepherdess Pie? (which is the reason I came to this page) 193.35.248.121 (talk) 16:00, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

History

Is it possible to find out some more info on the history of the dish? What I heard was that the servants would make a lamb roast for their bosses for Sunday lunch, and then they would take the leftovers and make themselves a Shepherd's Pie for dinner. So it would always be made with lamb, and the vegetables in it would be roasted first. I don't know if that's true or not, I would be interested in knowing the history of it, and I'm looking for a traditional recipe too. Would it traditionally have tomato in it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.198.18.121 (talk) 19:36, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Found a bit more info: http://gourmettraveller.com.au/shepherds_pie2.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.198.18.121 (talk) 19:45, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

More detail: http://www.foodtimeline.org/foodpies.html#shepherdspie and there's a recipe there too, from 1886. Very plain. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.198.18.121 (talk) 19:53, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

I was always under the impression that for a shepher'd pie to be a shepherds pie (as opposed to a mince pie with a potato-crust) it had to be made with leftover roast meat put through a mincer.203.19.175.113 (talk) 08:08, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Shepherds pie in Australia

In Australia, "Shepherds Pie" refers to beef, not lamb. We don't have a lamb version. Cottage Pie is rarely used but when it is, it's the same thing. 118.209.35.93 (talk) 02:15, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. The article is incorrect. Its made with beef in Australia and its Shepherds Pie. 110.174.23.139 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 06:18, 12 April 2011 (UTC).

Actually the first time I ever remember having a Shepherds Pie was when my parents put some cold roast lamb through the mincer! In fact, I assumed it was called "Shepherds Pie" because it was made from lamb! So you can't say we "don't have a lamb version"! Perhaps you mean that "if you eat out and find a place which sells it" it's normally made from beef! That, however, is based upon commercial considerations. Beef mince is far more readily available, and generally cheaper, in Australia than say lamb mince, and a commercial kitchen would not roast beef or lamb specifically to make a "Shepherds Pie". They'd be much more likely to buy in bulk raw mince, and then make them as needed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.58.245.247 (talk) 10:16, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Traditional Sheherd's Pie-U.S.?

Are there other places other than some spots in New England (which was mentioned in the Article) where Shepherd's pie is considered a traditional dish in the U.S.? I was just asking because I remember being served it quite a bit by the chow hall when I took Basic Training in Fort Knox, KY-which is a long ways from New England. Despite it being somewhat...mass produced, I actually did enjoy eating it as it was different from the more traditional foods where I grew up (Texas. Better known for Tex-Mex, Southern Classics like Chicken Fried Steak, Barbecue done w/ beef, etc.). I would be greateful if someone can answer this for me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.226.155.171 (talk) 07:04, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Cowboy Pie and Mushroom Soup

There are many interpretations of cowboy pie and the ones I've found bear little resemblance to cottage pie. Also, I can't find any other source to support the alleged popularity of cottage pie with cream of mushroom soup, in New England or elsewhere. For these assertions, a citation was requested months ago and no one has responded, so I'm going to delete them. JoeMCMXLVII (talk) 13:57, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Redundancy

"A vegetarian version can be made using soya or other meat substitutes, or legumes such as lentils or chick peas." Does this even matter? The same could be said for any type of food containing meat, but does it add anything to the article? I think not. 81.234.108.44 (talk) 16:29, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

I can also say cottage pie is from England, while the variant shepherds pie is from Ireland. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.25.142.10 (talk) 23:21, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

The article is incorrect

The article commences "Cottage pie refers to a British or Irish meat pie made with beef mince and with a crust made from mashed potato. A variation on this dish is known as shepherd's pie." This is untrue. Cottage and shepherd's pie are clearly described in Webster's and the Oxford English Dictionary and in a host of authoritative culinary works as a meat pie with a mashed potato crust. It could barely be simpler. It seems that someone or some people have imposed their personal expectations based on local or family habit, perhaps influenced by disbelief in the idea that shepherds might eat beef. JoeMCMXLVII (talk) 18:52, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

It seems your recent edit to correct the article, then, was a good one. Thanks! JoeSperrazza (talk) 20:38, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

It's a pleasure. I have a problem with any publication or any individual purporting unsubstantiated POV as fact. JoeMCMXLVII (talk) 14:02, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

The trouble there though is that the dictionary definition doesn't clarify what kind of meat it is. Could cottage pie still be called cottage pie if made from bacon? Or human flesh? a_man_alone (talk) 15:03, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Just checked, and at least one dictionary does define what kind of meat is is: websters definition, and even makes the distinction between Cottage & Shepherds pie. a_man_alone (talk) 15:13, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Webster's describes cottage pie as a shepherd's pie, especially one that's made with beef. Your discovery doesn't mean that a cottage pie is necessarily made with beef. The whole point is that both cottage pie and shepherd's pie describe a meat pie with a mashed potato crust and, believe it or not, which kind of meat you put in it is not a defining issue. JoeMCMXLVII (talk) 17:18, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Interestingly the Homepride brand changed their Shepherd's pie sauce not too long ago - which previously said to use minced beef and now says minced lamb on it. This is quite correct. Certainly in Irish families we were brought up with Shepherd's pie (lamb), Cottage pie was when the cost of lamb got too expensive and therefore made with beef and Cumberland pie was if you had cheese grated on top and perhaps breadcrumbs too. The difference between cottage pie and cumberland pie to taste is fairly minimal, shepherds pie and cottage pie are two totally different dishes and have only ever been used synonymously by people who don't know what shepherd's pie is. (Generally countries where lamb and certainly minced lamb is less common.) (Roterbaron (talk) 17:11, 6 August 2012 (UTC))

Never heard of cottage pie so can't comment on that but MichaelGG pretty accurately describes the Shepard's Pie I'm familiar with - mincemeat (beef of course), mashed potato and topped with cheese. Meat often includes peas, carrot cubes, corn etc - mixed veges. Seems like there is so much variation it's impossible to be authoritative. Okay just double checked something, looks like Cottage Pie is another term for Shepard's Pie - this article has it the other way round, but it might be better to describe it as mincemeat covered in mashed potato rather than having a potato crust as the potato needn't be the crust layer. 114.33.29.137 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 06:46, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

• For clarity, this describes the differences with a bit of history.
   — Berean Hunter (talk) 13:48, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Name justification

The intro should not be justification or an argument. It has too much focused discussion backed with two much references. For a page about a meal, it's quite overwhelming. I would suggest, if anyone is interested, the page could be improved by moving that to it's own section, and just listing both names in the title. Kanjo Kotr (talk) 02:19, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

mergefrom Cumberland pie

Just another slight variation. - TheMightyQuill (talk) 00:51, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

• Support They seem like the same dish, with the variation so slight as to not justify the separate article. Geoff ^{T C} 16:24, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
• Fools rush in where angels fear to tread Cumberland pie is to me cottage pie au gratin. But first, someone needs to make a sweeping and knowledgeable revision to the Wikipedia gratin article, otherwise a merger will only serve to sacrifice this article to the raging war of popular misconception (and ignorance, I dare add). 86.133.164.142 (talk) 01:22, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
• Against: Can anyone find a reasonably authoritative reference to Cumberland Pie? The only properly sourced information I've found is to supermarket ready-meals. It seems that it may be a marketing gimmick. Until an authoritative reference can be found, any mention of Cumberland Pie in this article would require a [citation needed] tag, inviting its deletion. 86.133.14.157 (talk) 02:38, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
• Against: "The true Cumberland Pie therefore should be spiced, sweetened somehow but not sugary, and with an element of fruit – dried fruit such as raisins, or candied fruits, or more acceptable these days apples - in the recipe as well as minced meat. In medieval times mixtures of meat were common, so it seems wrong to specify Herdwick lamb alone, or even more regionally specific Herdwick mutton.

So the essential elements for a Cumberland pie are minced meat, fruit, spices, a sweet element (at the very least sugar in the cooked apple), and a shortcrust pastry casing. Further enhancements can include rum, something found in much Cumbrian cooking since the days when Whitehaven was a major port for trade with the West Indies." from: http://www.information-britain.co.uk/food/foodlegends/Cumberland%20Pie/ Smpr10r (talk) 07:11, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

• Against though it seems the idea that Cumberland Pie was ever anyone thing may be mistaken. Decent sources for 19th century variants given here http://www.foodsofengland.co.uk/Cumberland_Game_Pie.htm and note that the page title of "Cumberland Game Pie" is not the title given to the pies described, Ghughesarch (talk) 01:08, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

Cottage or shepherd?

PLEASE!!!! Cottage pie and shepherd's pie. Cottage is made with BEEF. Shepherd's Pie is made with LAMB. Bobbymak880 (talk) 19:09, 16 September 2009 (UTC) bobbymak880 Bobbymak880 (talk) 19:09, 16 September 2009 (UTC) Bobbymak880 (talk) 19:09, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Quote from http://www.foodtimeline.org/foodpies.html#shepherdspie The key to dating Shepherd's pie is the introduction (and acceptance) of potatoes in England. Potatoes are a new world food. They were first introduced to Europe in 1520 by the Spanish. Potatoes did not appeal to the British palate until the 18th Century. (Foods America Gave the World, A. Hyatt Verrill, page 28). Shepherd's Pie, a dish of minced meat (usually lamb, when made with beef it is called "Cottage Pie")

Opticyclic (talk) 23:08, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

If you read the article, you'll see ten respected references stating that shepherd's pie and cottage pie were and remain synonymous. What you are demonstrating is a recent trend, as clearly stated in the article before you edited it.JoeMCMXLVII (talk) 05:33, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Thats not what I see when I read the article at all. I see several dictionary references that I can't verify as I don't have those copies. and I see the gluttons glossary referring to Cottage pie with beef due to the disappearance of mutton for shepherds pie. I also read several well respected chefs referring to Shepherd pie as mutton and Cottage pie as beef and I also refer to the historical record above as well. Opticyclic (talk) 13:02, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

So, because you can't find it easily with a web search it doesn't count. I have examined almost all the references cited and they give a very different story (including those available on the web and including the one you've used above) but, for the sake of argument, let's assume that people people visit Wikipedia not to gain knowledge but to have their popular preconceptions confirmed and you're doing a first-class job. JoeMCMXLVII (talk) 09:55, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

If you guys go have a look at the wikibooks (link at the main page), you may notice that "Cottage pie" actually refers to the same recipe with ground beef instead. I think both terms deserve to be mentioned in the article anyway considering that.--Blackhawk charlie2003 (talk) 14:56, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

That information was already under the variations section., And rightly so. Almost everybody in the UK calls it Shepherd's Pie when it is made with minced beef in spite of the majority of them knowing full well that the correct name is Cottage Pie, but the information is still better in the variation section. TINYMARK 00:17, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm puzzled as to why this article is called "Shepherd's Pie" with "Cottage Pie" being redirected to it. Cottage pie does not imply any specific meat and practically every cookery writer I can find uses cottage pie as the generic term, having shepherd's pie as the popular way of describing cottage pie when it's made with lamb or mutton. It would be more useful and logical to call the article "Cottage pie" and have "Shepherd's pie" redirected. Letsgetthingsright (talk) 01:06, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Totally agree with you, Letsgetthingsright. The "shepherd" in "shepherd's pie" is there precisely to indicate that it's a cottage pie made with lamb or mutton, and even though it's by no means unknown for people to call the minced-beef-and-mashed-potato dish a "shepherd's pie", since this article deals with minced-meat-and-mashed-potato dishes as a whole, the generic term "cottage pie" should be used as it's title. Can anyone please "let it be so"? (I generally get into a tangle when trying to "swap titles and re-directs.) -- Picapica (talk) 15:43, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

I'll give it a try. Letsgetthingsright (talk) 19:50, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm. I see what you mean about getting into a tangle. Letsgetthingsright (talk) 20:25, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

By the way, I've found no evidence to convince me that the term "shepherd's pie" was coined to indicate that the meat was mutton, rather than both terms coming into generic use to indicate "a pie made in the shepherds' style" or "a pie made in the cottagers' style", and that the difference was not the content but the nature of the regional agricultural economy. If I'm right, then the key to the nature of the pie is that potato was a cheap crop grown for estate workers as distinct from their landlords, and shepherd's pie was later associated with lamb in the process of folk etymology. If you have other evidence then please say so: I'll be very interested. Letsgetthingsright (talk) 20:56, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Un-fucking-believable. Wikipedia really has gone to the dogs now. Richard W.M. Jones (talk) 23:14, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Hello, what upset you then? Letsgetthingsright (talk) 11:58, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Hi Letsgetthingsright, you really should check WP:MOVE. The talk page is now attached to the other article. GameKeeper (talk) 23:40, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

I've told him already and someone is looking into repairing the damage—I hope! TINYMARK 00:28, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

I haOK I've done what I could to revert the move, not because I disagree with it but because its been mangled by the technology. We still need an admin to get the cottage pie history back. I'll ask for help.

User:Slakr helped and sorted it out GameKeeper (talk) 11:02, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

There has been much heat generated over whether cottage pie and shepherd's pie are associated with particular meats. The short answer is no. Whether or not the shepherd's pie should be limited to lamb, it is not. And a cottage pie can inevitably include any meat, including lamb.122.59.167.152 (talk) 21:45, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

Future moves to be by request

I had responded to a request and pointed a handful of broken redirects to Shepherd's pie after some poor edits. It looked fine to me - Cottage pie and Shepherd's pie being largely synonymous. The article has now been changed to Cottage pie. So I have again updated the redirects. That was thirteen redirects which had to be updated to point to Cottage pie. Any change now should go through Wikipedia:Requested moves linking to this discussion so that an Admin is aware that there has been prior discussion on this matter, and that there are multiple redirects involved. As the person who approached me said, it really doesn't matter which way round the title is as both forms need to be discussed within the article. Frankly this sort of petty renaming is time-consuming, damaging, disruptive and pointless. When there are two equal terms for a topic, and one has been in place for a long time with an article structured around the existing term, including multiple redirects then the common sense approach is to leave things alone. It's all a learning process, and we've all been there and done similar things! Take from this experience that it's always worth considering the potential disruption involved in a move - especially when there is no real net gain. SilkTork *^{What's YOUR point?} 08:31, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Page Photograph

I've no idea what the photograph on the page is of, but it certainly isn't either Cottage or Shepherd's pie! 14:15, 28 October 2008 (UTC) ---

It looks pretty close to the various images that turned up in this Google image search: [[1]]. I think a wide variance in how the dish looks is to be expected, given its idiosyncratic nature. Geoff (talk) 17:01, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

The current page picture looks nothing like a cottage pie should. If you ordered a cottage pie in a restaurant and got that you would surely send it back. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.179.102.93 (talk) 11:00, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

That doesn't look like a cottage pie at all. It's got sweetcorn in it and it looks really solid with no gravy. And a whole spring onion and slice of tomato are certainly not traditional accompaniments. Also, cottage pie (beef) is entirely different to shepherds pie (lamb, hence shepherd). Rob b77 (talk) 14:41, 12 January 2017 (UTC)

Can this picture please be changed? It is about as close to a cottage or shepherd's pie as a picture of a pizza would be. The meat filling for a shepherd's pie is never able to support itself, unlike the meatloaf base showing in the page picture. It is impossible to slice a cottage or shepherd's pie in this way, and to have it sit alone and unsupported. The use of gravy in the meat means it needs to be served in a dish (or a dish-shaped pastry crust). A suitable reference picture should display the meat within a good mixture of gravy, and served in a dish. Not this meat-flavoured dog-biscuit with mashed potato and corn(!) stacked on top of it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.160.87.96 (talk) 13:16, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

Is the photo correct?

File:Shepherdspie2.JPG is captioned here as a cottage pie made with beef, but the filename suggests it is shepherd's pie, which I gather is always made with lamb. The article itself refers to "Cottage pie (made with minced beef) or shepherd's pie (made with minced lamb)". Equinox ◑ 15:12, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

• I'm no expert and given that you won't get a response from the uploader, you might have to bring it to a vote...

Here is the file: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Shepherdspie2.JPG --Bod (talk) 20:59, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 9 January 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. (non-admin closure) JudgeRM (talk to me) 03:13, 17 January 2017 (UTC)

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Cottage pie → Shepherd's pie – The article was created in 2003 as this more common term. It wasn't until 2008 that the term "cottage pie" was even added to the lede. See here: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cottage_pie&type=revision&diff=190324674&oldid=190323076. Also see this comparison on Google Ngrams: https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=cottage+pie%2Cshepherd%27s+pie&year_start=1800&year_end=2000&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2Ccottage%20pie%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Cshepherd%20%27s%20pie%3B%2Cc0. The lede could be reworded then. Bod (talk) 21:54, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

I also noticed it's mentioned in the article that Shepherd's pie is made with lamb however Merrimack-Webster says beef [[2]].--64.229.167.158 (talk) 22:02, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose – I see no reason to change it. The two dishes are often synonymous (though it's clear some think Shepherd's pie is limited to being made with lamb). Despite history, just leave things the way they are.  —jmcgnh^{(talk) (contribs)} 02:48, 11 January 2017 (UTC)
• Support per the ngram and my personal experience. Srnec (talk) 03:34, 11 January 2017 (UTC)
• Support per WP:COMMONNAME and per the principle of reverting undiscussed moves that are controverted and were just a choice between two equally correct titles.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  03:18, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
• Support for the presumed common name. Wolfdog (talk) 13:57, 14 January 2017 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Line down the middle of the article should be removed

In my opinion, the line running down the middle of the article should be removed as it spoils the alignment of all of the text in the article especially the tab text which, in my opinion, makes the article look unprofessional.

I'm using Chrome on Windows 7 and I don't see a line. Hayford Peirce (talk) 19:05, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

Nor I, on Safari on a Mac. But I wonder if maybe that pull quote from Louis Diat might be causing issues? --ZimZalaBim ^talk 19:07, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

Probably. I THINK that it used to be in a box up against the right margin. Hayford Peirce (talk) 19:28, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

That quote isn't really all that special and could just be a shorter mention within the text. --ZimZalaBim ^talk 21:46, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

I myself did not put it in, but I think it adds interesting perspective and should be retained. How many people who read WP are even aware that even relatively recently not everyone even in developed countries had refrigerators? I myself remember the days right after the end of WWII in which WE had a refrigerator -- but we ALSO had an "icebox" to which an "iceman" delivered a big block of ice once a week. I think we kept ground horsemeat in it for our dogs. So I think the Diat info should be kept. Hayford Peirce (talk) 23:28, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

Self-conflicting statement in "variations"

"Potato pie is a ground red meat pie topped with mashed potato; the difference is that the potato pie lacks any vegetables." -- Potatoes are vegetables. 76.115.180.187 (talk) 17:18, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

'Shepherd's pie, cottage pie, or hachis Parmentier is a ground meat pie'

this is nonsense, firstly its not a pie, its called shepherds pie because in british english we often give things colliqual names like 'fish cakes' but no one would claim they are actually cakes. Shepherds Pie got the name because they look vaguely like pies but there defitantly not pies in the same way fish cakes are not cakes! also in the UK we dont use the word ground meat we call it mince and is this is a British article american spellings shouldnt used. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C7:2B88:5700:944D:7761:3056:E080 (talk) 18:23, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

I agree, especially about the term pie. Tommi1986 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 16:26, 13 February 2021 (UTC)

Proposed split into Shepherd's pie, cottage pie, and hachis Parmentier

Currently this article is attempting to mesh together three distinct dishes, especially Hachis Parmentier. The further proposed merger with Pátê Chinois would make it a mockery. Instead I propose a split of this current article into three articles, each about their own dishes, and therefor also to leave P. C. with it's own article. 2A02:C7F:60A:A100:902D:7039:4C57:6921 (talk) 10:42, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

• I'm not sure how proposing a merge and a split at the same time is going to work. JIP | Talk 15:47, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

@2A02:C7F:60A:A100:902D:7039:4C57:6921: You should discuss this in the Merge proposal above, giving arguments: in what way are the three dishes "distinct"? what do they have in common and what is different about them (after all, the lead already mentions that corn kernels are a common addition)? in Canada, does "Shepherd's pie" refer to two different things (since it is given as the English name of pátê chinois?

Re Hachis parmentier, that discussion happened a while ago. --Macrakis (talk) 18:47, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

I agree with the split, the merge seems pretty bsurd. Porcofederal (talk) 21:25, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

That discussion was closed a year ago. --Macrakis (talk) 21:47, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

Proposed merger of Hachis Parmentier into Shepherd's pie

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result of this discussion was merge Hachis Parmentier into Shepherd's pie. The merger was completed in March, 2020. Geoff | ^{Who, me?} 17:26, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

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Creating discussion section for October 2019 merger proposal. Geoff | ^{Who, me?} 17:37, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

• Mild oppose Looks like there was a brief discussion about this merger 11 years ago which had little discussion other than one oppose (see above in this Talk page). Historically, it does appear that "shepherd's pie" came first (in the 18th century) and then Escoffier (in the early 20th century) created a similar dish with a variation of ingredients and preparation techniques. My inclination is that the two dishes are sufficiently distinct, especially with the Escoffier connection, to warrant separate articles. Geoff | ^{Who, me?} 17:47, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
• Strong support for merger. They are essentially the same dish. Of course there are differences among particular interpretations, but those easily fit into the scope of a single article. It's not even clear that the differences are systematic -- that is, are there specific things that differentiate one from the other, or are there just variations for both of them with a lot of overlap?

Reliable sources support the merger. For example, the Oxford Companion to Food characterises hachis parmentier as "the equivalent dish in France".[3] Many restaurant guides and cookbooks simply gloss hachis parmentier as shepherd's pie (B. Hamburger, Paris Bistros & Wine Bars, p. 184; Freson, Food of France, p. 72; etc.) with no qualifications at all -- not a "similar" dish, but just "hachis parmentier (shepherd's pie)".

By the way, it's unlikely that this was Escoffier's invention. He has a 1921 fancified recipe (which is not what is usually served as hachis parmentier in France), but there are many earlier mentions of the dish, often in institutional settings.[4]

--Macrakis (talk) 18:48, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

• ((see below, new conclusion --Macrakis (talk) 22:44, 23 November 2019 (UTC))) Strongly oppose the proposed merger. I completely agree with Stavos Macrakis that they are essentially the same dish. But after the UK joined the EU, did anyone propose that the article about the UK be merged with the article about France? A Rolls-Royce is essentially the same as a Peugeot: they are both automobiles, they both have enormous similarities between them, but I doubt if we want to try to merge those articles. Furthermore, if the hachis article and the shepherd's pie article were merged, how would it be done as a practical effort? Which text would predominate? At the moment, the text of each article is as different as Yorkshire pudding is from Clafouti, once again, two somewhat similar but different edibles. Would hachis just be a footnote to pie, or would it be the other way around? If you look at the Hamburger article, you will see that there are references to similar dishes in a number of other cuisines -- no one has proposed merging all of those articles into a single one! Hayford Peirce (talk) 23:43, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

If you "completely agree... that they are essentially the same dish", then Wikipedia policy says that they should be treated together; see Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not a dictionary and Wikipedia:Content forking. Of course the merged article should discuss distinctive qualities of the variants, just as we do for crème caramel, with its various names and variants.

There is no question of one text "predominating" -- the article describes the common characteristics, and then the individual variants. I don't understand how you're comparing hachis to pie. The hamburger article is a fine example of treating variants in one place. There are also cross-references to more detailed articles on cheeseburgers, etc. --Macrakis (talk) 15:30, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

Well, I was comparing hachis to shepherd's pie, I didn't think I'd need to add the shepherds since that's one of the articles we're talking about. But I see that I should have. If you want to have a go at merging the two articles, go ahead -- once you decide what the title is going to be! Hayford Peirce (talk) 17:10, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

Well, if you're encouraging me to have a go, maybe you should change your "Strongly oppose" to "Maybe" or something... --Macrakis (talk) 18:29, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

Righto, gotta follow formal WP protocol, otherwise there will be long discussions about what to do with us, as per Fram! Hayford Peirce (talk) 19:04, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

• Completely neutral Do what the consensus seems to be. Hayford Peirce (talk) 19:05, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
• Support. It's pretty much the same dish, and the article Hachis Parmentier doesn't exactly contain a lot of information about the dish. JIP | Talk 15:17, 21 February 2020 (UTC)

OK, I will go ahead with the merger unless I hear strong objections in the next day or so. --Macrakis (talk) 16:10, 13 March 2020 (UTC)

Done --Macrakis (talk) 23:51, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

Looks to me like you did a very nice job. As you know, I was initially against it, but now I see that you were probably right. Hayford Peirce (talk) 03:28, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Lamb or beef

The article read as follows:

However, in the UK since the 21st century, the term shepherd's pie is used more commonly when the meat is lamb.

The first cited reference (Delia Online) does say that "shepherd's pie" is made with lamb and "cottage" with beef. The second cited reference (BBC) says nothing about which is more common. The third cited reference is a random blog and not WP:RS. --Macrakis (talk) 15:58, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

Palestine

How to make this reference non-political? State of Palestine? The Palestinian Territories? "Palestine" as it stands is a fairly ambiguous reference, which could include, in part, the other countries in the list. LaFoiblesse 2009-08-28 17h11 (GMT)

Merge from Pâté chinois

This article currently reads:

In Canada, a similar dish is called Pâté chinois in French and Shepherd's Pie in English. It is made in a casserole dish with ground beef on the bottom layer, canned (creamed) sweetcorn in the middle, and mashed potato on top.

This description, and the description on the Pâté chinois page, make it clear that this is well within the standard range of variants of shepherd's pie as described here -- note the circular reference to shepherd's pie! Specific information about its history and variants can easily be included in this article. --Macrakis (talk) 18:46, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

• Support. The only defining difference between shepherd's pie and pâté chinois seems to be that the latter includes corn. JIP | Talk 19:29, 13 February 2021 (UTC)

And this article's intro already mentions corn as a possible addition to the filling. --Macrakis (talk) 21:27, 13 February 2021 (UTC)

• Support Sympathetically merging pâté chinois into this article makes sense to me - without losing its context. - Guffydrawers (talk) 07:16, 22 September 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose, as there's more to a dish than a recipe, and the cultural distinction between the Fracophile and Anglophile traditions are worth keeping distinct. I also note that one of the merge templates was removed back in March 2021 with this edit, which may explain the lack of opposing views; I've reinstated it now. Klbrain (talk) 13:23, 24 April 2022 (UTC)
• Mild oppose − The Pâté chinois article contains a helluva lot of information that, though all good stuff, is sui generis and would clog up the shepherd's pie article if imported there. I think the links from one to the other do the job our readers will want. Tim riley talk 14:53, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

As there seems to be no consensus for or against a merge, will it be all right if I remove the banner at the top of the article after a further few days? Tim riley talk 18:47, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose It's been tag bombed sources for the content are stated clearly in the text and don't overlap. Would adding all this stuff about pemmican and corn to the shepherd's pie article improve it? Would we have to call it maize too? Spudlace (talk) 22:27, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

The prospects of a consensus to merge have evidently receded further. The thread has been open for well over a year. I'll remove the banners tomorrow unless anyone objects. Tim riley talk 12:29, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

Lancashire Hot Pot, and others

As we have Cumberland Pie, I think it is worth adding Lancashire Hot Pot as a similar recipes; a dish made with lamb, butter, onions, and gravy with layers of sliced potatoes on top. There are other regional versions such as Nottinghamshire Pie which uses beef and stilton?

Thoughts? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:6B67:6C7E:1:7D5C:C79A:ED28:9539 (talk) 08:04, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

Main picture

To my eye the image File:Homerton College - Shepherd's pie (cropped).jpg, currently relegated to the depths of the article, gives much the best idea of what a shepherd's pie looks like on the plate (despite the mercilessly overcooked peas), and unless anyone objects I'd like to make it the lead picture. Comments most cordially invited. Tim riley talk 20:30, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

In the absence of comment, now done. Tim riley talk 08:10, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

Grammatical edits

Why are grammatical edits which improve the Flesh Reading Ease or SMOG being reverted incorrectly? 84.67.233.47 (talk) 19:24, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Possibly because they are illiterate: "rooted in it's history"? Hello? Tim riley talk 19:30, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

"rooted in it's history"? should have a question mark before the end quote. 84.67.248.66 (talk) 19:57, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

the original edits by the OP seem to pass ARI better than the latest revision. I suggest reverting these changes.

I do not understand the illiterate: "rooted in it's history"? Hello? 92.40.216.138 (talk) 19:59, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

I suspect because "rooted in it's history" is poor grammar. - SchroCat (talk) 20:01, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

It's = contraction of "it is" -> It's a shepherd's pie.

Its = belonging to it -> Its shepherd's pie.

Tim O'Doherty (talk) 20:14, 3 September 2023 (UTC)